Discussions about sexism on the internet...

pickarooney

cherub rock wrote: »

Some forums have boundaries that are difficult to get your head around... It's the "If you don't like it - tough. Don't read it" mentality of teh interwebs.

True, and for those of us whose default attitude is to not give a crap what anyone else thinks or writes it's extremely difficult to understand the point of view of people who get offended. I think one half of boards just needs to keep insisting that 'X annoys me aned I'd rather it didn't go on' and the other half needs to get into the habit of asking itself if it's really worth posting X when it's just going to annoy half the people who read it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

There seems to be a lot of genuine concern about ''women hating'' being typical on boards and specifically in sexism(therefore more serious) threads. I often get into arguments with female posters in sexism threads but I certainly don't hate women.

I'm interested to see examples of what is perceived as woman hating to be honest.

I'm completely open to personal criticism here, I honestly just want to know what is perceived by that term.

Ectoplasm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of genuine concern about ''women hating'' being typical on boards and specifically in sexism(therefore more serious) threads. I often get into arguments with female posters in sexism threads but I certainly don't hate women.

I'm interested to see examples of what is perceived as woman hating to be honest.

I'm completely open to personal criticism here, I honestly just want to know what is perceived by that term.

From my own experience, it isn't so much 'woman hating' as it is, for want of a better term, casual sexism that is more prevalent. I'd honestly say that I think there are only a few who are genuine women haters - I don't think it's a prevalent attitude at all.

What I have a problem with is whenever a question over sexism against women is raised, there are a number of predictable responses.
-Some posters feel the need to point out that sexism is not something that only affects women. This is true, but that's generally not the point under discussion.
-Some posters will say that they aren't sexist, love women and they don't think that x, y or z is sexist, therefore it isn't.
-Some posters will laugh/make jokes/tell the poster they've no sense of humour, it's only a joke etc. etc.
- The word 'feminazi' will make an appearance, usually with accusations of man hating too.

The other thing that usually follows is a lot of snide little references on other threads, mocking how 'sensitive' the 'wimminz' are. These are subtle little digs which reinforce the notion that the women should just shut up if they don't like it.

Honestly, that cartoon is shocking in how accurate it is. I have zero problem with someone arguing a point - in fact I'm usually interested when someones opinion differs from mine as to how we have arrived at such different conclusions - it's just funny how often the arguments follow the same routine over and over.

K-9

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of genuine concern about ''women hating'' being typical on boards and specifically in sexism(therefore more serious) threads. I often get into arguments with female posters in sexism threads but I certainly don't hate women.

Indeed, if I spot it myself, I try and point it out. In fairness, many of the posters pointing out chauvinism also have no problem pointing out examples of misogyny.

Orla K

I had a little look at AH haven't really read things there in ages, avoided threads where I thought people would say stupid things but haven't really been posting much on boards lately at all.

Now not all of these are bad, but they do portray an attitude that is bad.
I also found the one mentioning TLL interesting.
I've taken the names off(thought it would be better) and in one case took out a link(just because the blueness annoyed me, it didn't really matter what it was anyway.

Bitches love babies.

So long as it's all legal: Legend!

TTIWWOP.

(had to look this one up it means-This Thread Is Worthless Without Pictures

Still waiting on pics.

PM me OP...i'll bring you on the date of a lifetime. Do you like Eurosaver menu?



oh and pics or GTFO...

Tell that to a woman and then duck

.. that we make Silvio an honorary Legend of the Boards

Forget the pics, just GTFO!

Try posting somewhere where people might give a sh!t. Like The Ladies Lounge.

Seriously, no one cares.

JEDWARD?

Hey bunnyboiler - They were looking for a ride you silly bint.

I'm no psychologist but for a women to start a thread like this she's obviously a big fat munter...
who has probably dyed her ginger hair for the first time and lost a bit of weight.

People can't really say "Wow you look less ginge and not as fat a pig as you used to be!" so instead they go with the old "You look younger" line...

I'm guessing she's still a munter...

Ok. Maybe I was wrong. She's obviously an absolutely fcuking ride! Well done..She still needs to show some fcukin pics!

She has nothing on this little tramp

Bitches be crazy.

Ickle Magoo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of genuine concern about ''women hating'' being typical on boards and specifically in sexism(therefore more serious) threads. I often get into arguments with female posters in sexism threads but I certainly don't hate women.

I'm interested to see examples of what is perceived as woman hating to be honest.

I'm completely open to personal criticism here, I honestly just want to know what is perceived by that term.

What do you think women reading make of Boards when suggesting a female poster needs it up the arse or posts about cumming on female mods are lauded yet calling celebrities names or making lewd or nasty comments about them have a site-wide policy & posting negatively about minorities gets frowned upon and generally slapped down?

There is also the general vitriol that gets directed at women in general, blaming women for all men's issues or blaming them for all of their own - not specifying certain posts or attitudes, just having an opinion on "women". There's the fairly regular hijacking of threads for women or about women to argue about completely unrelated issue about men - like it's not possible to speak about one gender's issues without paying immediate homage to the others. Now, the majority of posters that seem to have an actual real-life issue with women in general would be an oddball minority but other posters bounce off them, thank them, occasionally tag-team with them and new posters see that and it creates an overall impression that when it comes to comments about women, anything goes. On top of that, certainly more so recently there are the constant digs and behind hand sniggering about female posters, "meh, ya feminazi", "wait lads, they'll be running off to tell on us for being evil misogynists", jeering at the tLL or decrying female oriented threads in general. Perhaps rather ironically, those that were demanding that anyone who not like the sexist comments stay away from certain fora have ensured it's an issue that's been dragged right across boards.

I've seen on other sites how this site is perceived and I've defended boards on more than one occasion from accusations of being nothing but misogynistic playground nonsense - which I think is grossly unfair. Puting the kibosh on other forms of bullying/discrimination/being a dick while letting explicit, aggressive and sometimes down-right offensive references about and to women go largely unimpeded has just served to highlight the disparity.

Bottle_of_Smoke

EMF2010 wrote: »

From my own experience, it isn't so much 'woman hating' as it is, for want of a better term, casual sexism that is more prevalent. I'd honestly say that I think there are only a few who are genuine women haters - I don't think it's a prevalent attitude at all.

What I have a problem with is whenever a question over sexism against women is raised, there are a number of predictable responses.
-Some posters feel the need to point out that sexism is not something that only affects women. This is true, but that's generally not the point under discussion.
-Some posters will say that they aren't sexist, love women and they don't think that x, y or z is sexist, therefore it isn't.
-Some posters will laugh/make jokes/tell the poster they've no sense of humour, it's only a joke etc. etc.
- The word 'feminazi' will make an appearance, usually with accusations of man hating too.

The other thing that usually follows is a lot of snide little references on other threads, mocking how 'sensitive' the 'wimminz' are. These are subtle little digs which reinforce the notion that the women should just shut up if they don't like it.

Honestly, that cartoon is shocking in how accurate it is. I have zero problem with someone arguing a point - in fact I'm usually interested when someones opinion differs from mine as to how we have arrived at such different conclusions - it's just funny how often the arguments follow the same routine over and over.

I'd say I'm broadly in agreement with this. Though there has been a lot of mention here of actual women hating in more serious threads. I'd like to know exactly what these posters are referring to because it is a very strong statement to make.

Orla K thanks for your contribution. It wasn't really after hours stuff I was looking for as I don't think that kind of thing should be taken to heart, or anyway seriously; mostly because its just keyboard warrior stuff as well as people actually looking to offend and even some posters parodying sexism.

Ickle_Magoo wrote:

What do you think women reading make of Boards when suggesting a female poster needs it up the arse or posts about cumming on female mods are lauded yet calling celebrities names or making lewd or nasty comments about them have a site-wide policy & posting negatively about minorities gets frowned upon and generally slapped down?

Are posts of this level of vulgarity commonplace? I'm pretty taken aback mods would tolerate that on any forum other than lolocaust. I don't report posts very often but if I saw that kind of thing I would.

There is also the general vitriol that gets directed at women in general, blaming women for all men's issues or blaming them for all of their own - not specifying certain posts or attitudes, just having an opinion on "women". There's the fairly regular hijacking of threads for women or about women to argue about completely unrelated issue about men - like it's not possible to speak about one gender's issues without paying immediate homage to the others. Now, the majority of posters that seem to have an actual real-life issue with women in general would be an oddball minority but other posters bounce off them, thank them, occasionally tag-team with them and new posters see that and it creates an overall impression that when it comes to comments about women, anything goes. On top of that, certainly more so recently there are the constant digs and behind hand sniggering about female posters, "meh, ya feminazi", "wait lads, they'll be running off to tell on us for being evil misogynists", jeering at the tLL or decrying female oriented threads in general. Perhaps rather ironically, those that were demanding that anyone who not like the sexist comments stay away from certain fora have ensured it's an issue that's been dragged right across boards.

Point well made. Reminds me a lot of the northern ireland themed ''debates'' in politics and elsewhere. I'll keep an eye on my posting to ensure I don't fall into this trap.

Only thing I would add is that in these type of threads they may be about women's issues but regularly men will be blamed for the issue, with unfair generalisations and criticisms of men(by some posters). Then some men post in response to that, add their own whataboutery contributution and the thread explodes.

Perhaps humanities would actually be a much better place for these debates, as the moderation style is more politics orientated than TLL/TGC

dfx-

Orla K wrote: »

Now not all of these are bad, but they do portray an attitude that is bad.
I also found the one mentioning TLL interesting.
I've taken the names off(thought it would be better) and in one case took out a link(just because the blueness annoyed me, it didn't really matter what it was anyway.

You would have to stress these posts are quoted in isolation.

I could have a field day in for example liah's excellent thread in tLL about people discouraging femininity by quoting in isolation. There are some extraordinarily derogatory opinions around. Had they been posted in AH, they could easily join those in your post

FTGFOP

Two wrongs don't make a right though. Sexism directed at either sex should be dealt with but the presence of one doesn't legitimise the other.

Orla K

dfx- wrote: »

You would have to stress these posts are quoted in isolation.

I could have a field day in for example liah's excellent thread in tLL about people discouraging femininity by quoting in isolation. There are some extraordinarily derogatory opinions around. Had they been posted in AH, they could easily join those in your post

I don't know what thread your talking about, so I don't fully understand you, but in the few examples I gave, all I removed were names and a link, I think one post had something in the header that didn't get quoted. I quoted full posts and for most of them I don'y think you really need to see the content of the entire thread(which was more than one thread too)

Now I wasn't going to do this but I was looking at something else, found one of these posts was a little surprised by it, remembered this thread and went looking further.

Maguined

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

On top of that, certainly more so recently there are the constant digs and behind hand sniggering about female posters, "meh, ya feminazi", "wait lads, they'll be running off to tell on us for being evil misogynists", jeering at the tLL or decrying female oriented threads in general.

I have criticised TLL rules but do not view that as making me sexist because I do not define women by my opinion on the rules of an internet forum even if that forum is themed around women. TLL does not "represent" women itself so if I disagree or criticise with its rules I am not criticising women themselves.

I do not want to get into why I dislike TLL rules itself as that is not the point of the thread itself but would you view someone disagreeing with TLL rules as inherently making them sexist in their beliefs?

I am not trying to accuse you of this or implying anything, merely just asking out of interest as I like TLL as it frequently has interesting topics however I have criticised the rules of TLL so I wonder do people view my criticism of the rules as sexist?

Ectoplasm

Maguined wrote: »

I have criticised the rules of TLL so I wonder do people view my criticism of the rules as sexist?

I don't think you could say disagreeing with some rules makes you sexist, although I'll stick in the caveat that I think it could be entirely possible for some people to be, er, 'sexistly motivated'* when disagreeing with certain rules.

I think you're entitled to your opinion, and even though you may disagree with some of the rules, you appear to respect the forum as valid - I'm assuming this as you contribute and engage in threads here.

What Ickle was getting at (I think) was the sneering, dismissive ways that tLL can be referred to - often by posters who never post here. The attitude that it's a place where all those silly wimminz go to go on and on about how much they hate men. This attitude is patronizing, disrespectful and juvenile. Sadly, it's also fairly widespread from what I've seen

*may be made up term

Ickle Magoo

Maguined wrote: »

I have criticised TLL rules but do not view that as making me sexist because I do not define women by my opinion on the rules of an internet forum even if that forum is themed around women. TLL does not "represent" women itself so if I disagree or criticise with its rules I am not criticising women themselves.

I do not want to get into why I dislike TLL rules itself as that is not the point of the thread itself but would you view someone disagreeing with TLL rules as inherently making them sexist in their beliefs?

I am not trying to accuse you of this or implying anything, merely just asking out of interest as I like TLL as it frequently has interesting topics however I have criticised the rules of TLL so I wonder do people view my criticism of the rules as sexist?

No, criticising a forum or forum rules - certainly as a kind of forum feedback or to the forum moderators is not something I'd view as sexist, at all. The comments in completely unrelated forums making jeering references to the vacuous and ridiculous nature of a forum based on the fact it is frequented by women and discusses women's issues - and the cliqued exaggerated and caricatured references to complaints made by female posters regarding male posters would be what I was referring to.

Acacia

I find the "tits or gtfo" response boring as hell, tbh. Same as all the other "get back to the kitchen, lol" and "omg, wimminz on the interwebz!" jokes. It's not that I don't have a sense of humour or I'm a "feminazi bra-burner" ( the fact that I have defend myself against such comments says it all about the "sexism is funny, therefore acceptable" attitude on the internet).... I just find it terribly unoriginal and not amusing in the least.
And even worse are the women who play along with it.

It's gotten to the point where I won't even engage in gender debates cause of the predictable backlash and reduction of every argument into being labelled a "ugly/fat/feminazi" as posters spewing out knee-jerk response totally miss the point of whatever is being discussed and inteerpret it as an attack on men.

Dudess

Hey Acacia, though ya'd stopped going on Boards!

Maguined wrote: »

I have criticised TLL rules

I have too.

Acacia

Dudess wrote: »

Hey Acacia, though ya'd stopped going on Boards!

Hello!:D Glad to see somebody missed me, ha! I'm still around, just doing a bit more lurking these days, than posting!

shinikins

donfers wrote: »

.... let me boil down my analysis


if some stranger you are never likely to meet (man or woman) makes a comment on an internet forum that is outrageously sexist then my opinion is that you shouldn't let it bother you too much (of course with the ratio of men to women on online forums you will see mroe sexism directed towards women there)....however if for example you learn that a male work colleague at work (who is doing the same job as you to roughly the same ability and with roughly the same experience) is earning more than you then take the appropriate action to investigate why the pay disparity exists, contact human resources department, equality organisations, a lawyer, whatever it takes to determine why the man is receiving more, be active and thorough and forceful in searching for the truth..


......energies could be better invested in fighting bigger and more meaningful battles

I know i'm coming late to the table here, and that Donfers has not posted in the last few pages, but when i read this post i felt compelled to post. I don't mean this as criticism of Donfers, or his post, but i think it's a pretty good example of many peoples attitudes.

My argument is why should women ignore sexism online, but fight against it in their daily lives? It is after all the same people who have this attitude in their own lives who are posting their opinions online, so surely for women to ignore it, put up with it or " not let it bother" is just going to reinforce the idea that its okay to be sexist any time at all?

FoxT

I have made many comments on AH etc which are easy targets for accusations of sexism.

This one is mine, for example.

Quote:
.. that we make Silvio an honorary Legend of the Boards

Oddly, this one was not intended at all as a sexist comment,but overall I am probably guilty as charged. It was made on a thread that also included the following comments from a female poster:

"I'd do him"
.
.

"Suit, accent, money.

What girl can resist? "


My point? AH is a forum where normal rules of social engagement are suspended to a certain extent. Both male & female posters make comments that would IRL be regarded as sexist/insulting.

I love the 'parallel universe' feel there, and many posts are hilarious. I think that the forum has its place.

The price for this is that every AH thread probably contains something that somebody will find offensive. I have boundaries that I will not cross in AH, and when I see others cross them I generally find it tasteless & unfunny, and occasionally offensive - but I expect that I have probably crossed other people's boundaries as well, so tolerance is part of the AH deal also.

I have read through this thread & can see that there are strong feelings on the issue, but they are also very diverse. Having read through it I actually deleted a post I made earlier, so perhaps I learnt something - but overall the thread isnt really offering guidance or suggestions on how things could be improved.

If you do find something I have written that offends you, then PM me! We may not agree, but I'd rather have a PM than have somebody quote me on a separate thread w/o my knowledge.

Cheers,

FoxT

Maguined

shinikins wrote: »

I know i'm coming late to the table here, and that Donfers has not posted in the last few pages, but when i read this post i felt compelled to post. I don't mean this as criticism of Donfers, or his post, but i think it's a pretty good example of many peoples attitudes.

My argument is why should women ignore sexism online, but fight against it in their daily lives? It is after all the same people who have this attitude in their own lives who are posting their opinions online, so surely for women to ignore it, put up with it or " not let it bother" is just going to reinforce the idea that its okay to be sexist any time at all?

I would probably have the same overall opinion as donfer's on the issue, not specifically to sexism but to anyone's expression of their opinions. I am a big believer in freedom of speech so I think anyone in the world should be allowed walk up to me and call me the nastiest things they want to. If someone came up to me and call me anything sexist or derogatory I would not really care as I do not care as some other person expressing their opinions of me does not define who I am, I define myself by my own opinions so I would not be bothered by them. Yes there would be an instinctive emotional reaction to their comments but I would try and let my rationale side take over and I would not try in any way to have that persons freedom of speech impeded just so I can feel better about not hearing their opinions.

Of course this is just for them expressing their opinions, if they continuously followed me around all day then this would no longer be them simply expressing their opinions but them actively harassing me and so I would go to the guards and have them arrested.

Basically I would not want to live in a society where freedom of speech was so undervalued that if a random woman came up to me and called me a "chauvinist pig" for no reason that I would have the legal capabilities to have her punished for expressing her opinion.

OutlawPete

Thaedydal wrote: »

I read this and was struck by how true it as in many many threads ..

Oh I can see how such misandric cartoons would appeal alright, but all that comic does is further instill the victimhood mentally that most feminists have and that if men dare to disagree with them online, sure not to worry - they are just illogical, whining babies who can't appreciate a woman for her talents, other than to say they want to fuck them that is.

Yeah, sure that's not sexist at all.

Ickle Magoo

And yet I've had & witnessed many a brilliant debate and argument on boards with men disagreeing or women disagreeing that didn't result in the male participants doing any of the things in that cartoon...so I'd suggest it isn't "men" daring to do anything - most of the body of male posters are perfectly able to have an intelligent & coherent argument without stooping to those levels, it's just a few plonkers who like to think they represent the majority

OutlawPete

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

.. it's just a few plonkers who like to think they represent the majority.

Yes, but also they are just a few plonkers that are then represented by feminists as the being the majority - those guys DO NOT represent themselves as the majority and even if they did, let them - who cares, they are "just a few plonkers" after all and clearly the minority.

Ickle Magoo

OutlawPete wrote: »

Yes, but also they are just a few plonkers that are then represented by feminists as the being the majority - those guys DO NOT represent themselves as the majority and even if they did, let them - who cares, they are "just a few plonkers" after all and clearly the minority.

That's my point. Does boards let a few racists spout their racism all over the place unchecked? Perhaps homophobics? No? What about those who like to insult celebrities? No? But it's okay to let comments about and to women go unchecked? Perhaps if a few went around calling all men rapists & child molesters in every other post and as a response in every thread with much lol's - I presume there would be no issue with that either - and it certainly wouldn't get tired and boring very quickly?

Btw, it's interesting that you keep throwing "feminist" around like it was an insult...you know feminism aims at establishing and maintaining equality....

OutlawPete

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Perhaps if a few went around calling all men rapists & child molesters in every other post and as a response in every thread with much lol's

Sorry, someone made comments such as ..

"All women are .. xyz".

.. that was comparable to your above examples.

Can you link me?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Btw, it's interesting that you keep throwing "feminist" around like it was an insult...you know feminism aims at establishing and maintaining equality....

I would love to explain in detail, just what I think of Feminism - but I have already been quoted out of context enough in this forum, despite not having not being posting in it at the time - so I will just ask you to read the following thread, where my comments are actually in context and not twisted upside down in order to make a catchy little soundbytes.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056063124

strobe

I don't agree with Pete too often, particularly on matters related to the whole 'sexism debate' on here (no offence man), but he is dead right about the cartoon in the OP. Just happened upon this thread as it was on the main page, but yeah, that cartoon is fairly insulting. As is the quoted part of the blog in the OP ("People — straight, male people, in particular — sure can have some strange misconceptions about how the world spins. Also, they are usually loud." - As a wise person on the internet once said: "WTF!?") Kind of disappointed it got so many thanks.

There might have been a general point to be made on the topic, and maybe it was one that needed to be made. But implying men are illogical, unwilling to listen, self congratulatory, biased, ignorant, immature, cry babies, while women sigh and fret about what a struggle it is to communicate reasonable ideas to the silly lot of us isn't a particularly intelligent or productive way to go about it. I realise cartoons by their nature exaggerate to extremes and always have but there are good, clever cartoons and blunt, unimaginative, inaccurate ones. Addressing sexism by stereotyping a gender negatively would fall into the latter category.


Oh well....

Round and round we go I guess, like bleeding always.

Ectoplasm

strobe wrote: »

I realise cartoons by their nature exaggerate to extremes and always have but there are good, clever cartoons and blunt, unimaginative, inaccurate ones. Addressing sexism by stereotyping a gender negatively would fall into the latter category.

You know what...generally I'd agree with you, but maybe that was exactly the point of the cartoon.

It was sexist in the way both you and Pete have said, (although I wouldn't go so far as to call it misandry) but can you honestly, hand on heart, say that you have never seen a debate on sexism go the way that the cartoon describes? Maybe more than once?

I've seen it happen. Repeatedly. Sure the cartoon left out the fact that there are often reasonable posters from both sides and there are often radical, even ridiculous posts on the side of 'women', this is where the exaggeration comes in - but I've seen debate after debate follow this tone. Not all of them, but I've both seen it and experienced it more than enough that it did make me smile*

It may be disappointing to you that it got so many thanks, and maybe we should look at the cartoon and the thanks it received as an indictment of both men and women.

The thing is though, it was familiar enough to many (not only women, some men have made comments in broad agreement with it too) that it struck a chord.

I agree you could label it as sexist, but not to acknowledge that it has a point too is a little bit of a biased perspective.



*What can I say, I'm a bad person who will often laugh at inappropriate things

Ickle Magoo

OutlawPete wrote: »

Sorry, someone made comments such as ..

"All women are .. xyz".

.. that was comparable to your above examples.

Can you link me?

Are you seriously trying to claim you've never seen a thread on boards start "women...."? "Just like women...". Really? I have to link you?! That's hysterical. How about you ask some of the guys that can see the point being made to explain it to you? :pac:

OutlawPete wrote: »

I would love to explain in detail, just what I think of Feminism - but I have already been quoted out of context enough in this forum, despite not having not being posting in it at the time - so I will just ask you to read the following thread, where my comments are actually in context and not twisted upside down in order to make a catchy little soundbytes.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056063124

Shocking I know but I actually don't care enough about your personal opinion on feminists to read a 14 page thread. Though I would say that a feminist =/= militant feminist...

OutlawPete

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to claim you've never seen a thread on boards start "women...."? "Just like women...". Really? I have to link you?! That's hysterical. How about you ask some of the guys that can see the point being made to explain it to you?

Include all the smilies you wish, it still won't give your point any more credence.

You posted:

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Perhaps if a few went around calling all men rapists & child molesters in every other post and as a response in every thread with much lol's

Now, again I ask - can you provide examples of where men have made statements regarding ALL women, that can be comparable to the above.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Shocking I know but I actually don't care enough about your personal opinion on feminists to read a 14 page thread.

Why would that be shocking to me?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Come on IM implying women get insults comparable to child molesters and rapists is patently ridiculous

Bottle_of_Smoke

EMF2010 wrote: »

You know what...generally I'd agree with you, but maybe that was exactly the point of the cartoon.

I really don't think it came across that way. I thought that cartoon was nuts.

The target women sketches are a much better example of the ridiculous crap women have to put up in the modern world.