Discussions about sexism on the internet...

Nevyn

I read this and was struck by how true it as in many many threads I have seen in many forums over this site esp in the last 3 years. IS it true for anyone else?


http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444

In which we betray our gender

Published on October 29, 2010 by gabby

The comic below is a compulsive response to a recent, entirely unremarkable little dust-up over on Twitter concerning the excruciatingly polite, brief comments of a certain cartoonist concerning the way dudes talk about women cartoonists — and the ****storm of whiny nonsensical defensive outrage that inevitably followed, just like any other time anyone on the internet has ever hinted at the possibility that perhaps, maybe, women could be treated a little more like, you know, humans.

But people can be weird, man. People — straight, male people, in particular — sure can have some strange misconceptions about how the world spins. Also, they are usually loud. Anyway, this cartoon will be of no help at all in changing our stupid, sexist culture of rape, murder, domination and bad tv — in fact, it hardly even qualifies as entertainment (although there is one kitten, scroll down to the bottom to skip straight to it!). But drawing this certainly made me feel better, so it made the cut. Don’t think I don’t know how I make you suffer, dear, patient reader!

If for some insane reason you would like to look at this so big that it expands across almost your entire screen, you are welcome to click upon it twice and “take it there.”

Links234

incredibly true, sadly

jokettle

Maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly think this is the only forum where I can express a genuine opinion without fearing a comment along the lines of "there are wimminz on teh internetz? lol" or a reference to sandwichs/kitchens, blah blah blah.

It's exhausting.

Silverfish

jokettle wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly think this is the only forum where I can express a genuine opinion without fearing a comment along the lines of "there are wimminz on teh internetz? lol" or a reference to sandwichs/kitchens, blah blah blah.

It's exhausting.

I should undelete all the comments we've deleted over the years, you would all be horrified

Faith

The worst thing about it is, when you call someone on making a really sexist remark, you get a reply going "It's a JOKE!!111!1 Why can't you just take a joke? We joke about everything!!" and they just can't get their heads around the idea that it's not someone making a joke we object to, it's the constant, repeated sexist crap that's wrapped up as a joke that we object to.

I really don't see the difference between "Bitch, get back in the kitchen, lulz" and "N***er, get back in the cotton fields, lulz" or something. Except one is socially acceptable and the other isn't.

Red Hand

True enough. It's fairly prevalent in a couple of forums here, AH mainly. The Feedback thread was an eye opener for me.

metrovelvet

Its not the sexist remarks and jokes that bother me. Its the sexists dynamics that bother me. It recently happened on feedback where a thread was started commenting on some of the content on Afterhours and in the end SHE ended up apologising.

ANd the other thing is that its not always a male to female thing either, women do it to other women too.

And it usually starts with calling someone hypersensitive.

Feeona

metrovelvet wrote: »

It recently happened on feedback where a thread was started commenting on some of the content on Afterhours and in the end SHE ended up apologising.

Yeah that was disturbing. Reminded me of the story 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.

Chuchoter

That comic writer thinks her opinions are important.
Her opinions on sandwiches are the only thing thats important!

And so on and so forth...

Some parts of this board (and indeed the whole internet) are very difficult to participate in if you're talking about anything even remotely related to women from a womans perspective, you get a variety of things varying from disgust (current thread 'what us women go through' on AH) for example to 'get back in the kitchen' remarks. There is also a great reluctance to see women as skills first looks second. On AH women are very objectified.

donfers

I saw this on another forum a few hours ago, the reactions to it were completely the opposite to what is being said here and mostly from women too.....after reading it I thought the comic would find great sympathy here


it makes some interesting points but my opinion is that ultimately it's a load of garbage and based on a lot of poor and fallacious arguments but I would never deny the right of the artist to provoke.........what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think because anyone who thinks that forums like AH or TLL are reflective of society at large is an idiot, most people are moderates and have no especially entrenched political affiliations, they can be swayed occassionally by one emotive issue of the day or another but other than that they wouldn't let comments on the net like "women who sleep with a guy on the first date are sluts" or "every man is potentially a rapist" or "I want to fcuk you because I like your post/comic" get to them or affect their lives, I am not so much worried by the people who come out with this kind of stuff as those that let that stuff affect them so much that it truly bothers them...I have had a few arguments on the net but always in a dispassionate curious way....anyone who gets enraged by moronic comments from strangers is also a moron and validating not just the strategy of the provocateur but the provacateur himself/herself....so my suggestion would be to chill out and not to over-estimate the influence of this guff, because honestly most people see it as just that.....however the thing I would warn against is playing the sexism card when it is not there just because someone happens to disagree with you, I find that disingenuous and almost devious and counter=productive the more worthy anti-sexist campaigns....I won't warble on anymore...I think sexism should be stamped out when it has a real impact on a man or woman's life...but obviously the problem there is we have different interpretations of what that impact is....my opinion is that sexist comments on the net shouldn't bother people too much especially when the over-the-top stuff is promptly moderated. Of course I am aware most people on this forum will probably disagree with my viewpoint and I respect that and I am grateful that I am given the opportunity to express myself here which is the ultimate proof that you are fair-minded.

luna77

I agree that sexism on the internet exists - not so much from the forums/blogging point of view but having worked in the industry myself a few years back.
Webdesign and most of the technical nuts and bolts of the interent is pretty much a boys playground. Why is this? Because Girls hardly ever choose technical subjects in college. I was 1 of 4 girls in 120 doing computer programming in university and I'm sure this has not changed much in the last few years.
So if the boys think this is their territory they would be right because we haven't made an effort to step up...I really wish this wasn't the case.

Johro

crayolastereo wrote: »

On AH women are very objectified.

A lot of AH posters have only just learnt to spell (or not, as the case may be), and quite a few of it's posts look like the private dreams of eight to twelve year olds. I wouldn't take those comments too seriously.

Chuchoter

donfers wrote: »

I saw this on another forum a few hours ago, the reactions to it were completely the opposite to what is being said here and mostly from women too.....after reading it I thought the comic would find great sympathy here


it makes some interesting points but my opinion is that ultimately it's a load of garbage and based on a lot of poor and fallacious arguments but I would never deny the right of the artist to provoke.........what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think because anyone who thinks that forums like AH or TLL are reflective of society at large is an idiot, most people are moderates and have no especially entrenched political affiliations, they can be swayed occassionally by one emotive issue of the day or another but other than that they wouldn't let comments on the net like "women who sleep with a guy on the first date are sluts" or "every man is potentially a rapist" or "I want to fcuk you because I like your post/comic" get to them or affect their lives, I am not so much worried by the people who come out with this kind of stuff as those that let that stuff affect them so much that it truly bothers them...I have had a few arguments on the net but always in a dispassionate curious way....anyone who gets enraged by moronic comments from strangers is also a moron and validating not just the strategy of the provocateur but the provacateur himself/herself....so my suggestion would be to chill out and not to over-estimate the influence of this guff, because honestly most people see it as just that.....however the thing I would warn against is playing the sexism card when it is not there just because someone happens to disagree with you, I find that disingenuous and almost devious and counter=productive the more worthy anti-sexist campaigns....I won't warble on anymore...I think sexism should be stamped out when it has a real impact on a man or woman's life...but obviously the problem there is we have different interpretations of what that impact is....my opinion is that sexist comments on the net shouldn't bother people too much especially when the over-the-top stuff is promptly moderated. Of course I am aware most people on this forum will probably disagree with my viewpoint and I respect that and I am grateful that I am given the opportunity to express myself here which is the ultimate proof that you are fair-minded.

Its all well and good when its a few trolls, but frankly its a large percentage of the online community. Thats why there are so few women within internet communities in general, because you just aren't welcome. Boards is actually one of the few places I know where I can't count the number of active female members on my fingers tbh.

Luna77: In terms of there being few women taking computer subjects/technical subjects in general, I can put this entirely down to the over-prominence of single sex schools in Ireland. I would have loved the chance to take engineering or technology, but its not on offer. I barely have a physics class.

Johro: Lol even excluding the 8-12 age bracket, I remember being on AH being the only person saying that mainstream porn objectified women and the women involved have little protection in their job and that the majority (not all) of the women involved probably had some outside problem in their life. I watch porn, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite, but I'm not going to go around extolling its moral virtues. I just found it hard to believe an entire forum worth of people could not see that mainstream porn objectified women.

Johro

crayolastereo wrote: »

Johro: Lol even excluding the 8-12 age bracket, I remember being on AH being the only person saying that mainstream porn objectified women and the women involved have little protection in their job and that the majority (not all) of the women involved probably had some outside problem in their life. I watch porn, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite, but I'm not going to go around extolling its moral virtues. I just found it hard to believe an entire forum worth of people could not see that mainstream porn objectified women.

Never saw that particular discussion, it is hard to believe. Maybe some of the guys on at the time didn't want to be seen as agreeing with you in case they got ridiculed for it? It's only a theory, may not be true at all, would be kinda sad if it were. The thing about guys is though, talk to a group of them and they're assholes, get a guy on his own and chat and you'll get his true feelings on the subject, or any subject for that matter. Okay some guys will lie to ya just to come across as a nice guy, but I think that privately most of them would feel the same as you do when they really think about it. I've watched porn. I didn't particularly like it. It's so false, and what I did see I found kinda disturbing for it's lack of feeling, the women/girls in it really were treated like pieces of meat, jostled into different positions whenever the male character felt the need, the whole porn thing feels like a kind of slavery. Maybe there's better stuff out there if you're into it but it just put me off. I might just be old-fashioned though, but I got to at least like a girl and have chatted with her before I'd even think of sex, what was going on there was just mechanical.

Links234

donfers wrote: »

what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think

it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference. being a gamer girl, when I was playing some MMOs the sexism was enough to make me quit. comments like make "me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen/iron my shirt" might make lads giggle, but when you're in a guild and every time you say something you get a variation of those oh so funny phrases from loads of different people, it stops being funny very quickly and starts being abusive and making you feel like your opinion is less valid.

it came to a point where I wouldn't make any mention of being female while playing and then I wouldn't see the constant abuse aimed at me. but I'd get to see it aimed at other female players, and it never stops. and you might think that was just a particular group of morons, but it wasn't. I changed guilds, I changed servers, the same rancid attitudes towards women were tolerated and even encouraged. so in the end I quit and I don't play much online games

not so easy to shrug off, so it's more than a little patronizing being told to just not let it bother you by a man when it doesn't effect you.

and while we're talking about comics.

Dudess

Oh my god Crayolastereo, I had exactly this conversation with a male friend tonight - the way you can't open your fucking mouth about extreme hardcore porn in which women are depicted as being totally debased. If you object and you're female, you're a man-hater; if you object and you're male, you're a wuss. I don't believe all women involved in hardcore porn were abused, have addictions etc - plenty choose the line of work - but it's hardly an industry without exploitative elements. However it's sexual and we should be a really sexually liberal society (lest we be seen as prudes) so therefore, don't slag the hardcore porn.

Unbelievable undercurrent of woman-hating on Boards - and then there are the "Well there are lots of man-haters here too" comebacks. Eh... not that I've seen tbh. I appreciate there are far less women than men though here, but still, all I've ever seen is the odd stupid "All men are bastards" comment which is quickly clamped down upon, by both men and women... whereas it seems some of the woman-hating is allowed to fester.

And I wonder do the guys who have to bring physical appearance into EVERY discussion EVER concerning a woman or women ever feel embarrassed about how stupid they look? They just come across as having sod all dealings with women. Not saying it should never be mentioned - of course not - but when it's of absolutely zilch relevance to the thread, it's pitiful. Often it's mentioned if the woman concerned is not a likeable one - "She's an ugly bitch too, if I had a bag of mickeys I wouldn't give her one". Great. And of course if you dare comment on the off topic focus on a woman's looks, you're either jealous (if she's good-looking) or unattractive (if she's also unattractive). There are certain threads where you feel like you have to bloody well walk on egg-shells...

A lot of the jokes and "sexist" comments are tongue-in-cheek and good-natured though - I wouldn't pay attention to those at all, and often find them hilarious. It's the dynamics Metrovelvet referred to - far more unpleasant IMO.

K-9

Links234 wrote: »

it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference. being a gamer girl, when I was playing some MMOs the sexism was enough to make me quit. comments like make "me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen/iron my shirt" might make lads giggle, but when you're in a guild and every time you say something you get a variation of those oh so funny phrases from loads of different people, it stops being funny very quickly and starts being abusive and making you feel like your opinion is less valid.

it came to a point where I wouldn't make any mention of being female while playing and then I wouldn't see the constant abuse aimed at me. but I'd get to see it aimed at other female players, and it never stops. and you might think that was just a particular group of morons, but it wasn't. I changed guilds, I changed servers, the same rancid attitudes towards women were tolerated and even encouraged. so in the end I quit and I don't play much online games

not so easy to shrug off, so it's more than a little patronizing being told to just not let it bother you by a man when it doesn't effect you.

and while we're talking about comics.

Being an Unmarried Dad in Ireland I can imagine that scenario.

I went through the "blame women" in every context, because a woman was my enemy in that particular scenario, so it transferred to every woman.

Then I seen the bigger picture and realised both sexes are discriminated against because of stereotypes.I was good enough to be the main carer in a relationship but suddenly, because of a split, I was no longer good enough!

Sex shouldn't come into it in an ideal world!

I'll be called a white knight for posting sympathetically in this thread! The answer is, "who the feck cares?"

My son was bullied when he was 7/8. Far too sensitive and largely my own fault. Forward a few years and he laughs at the bullies, because I looked at it from a, "why are they threatened?" picture.

Not the "make sure you show them" self portrait.

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

but it's hardly an industry without exploitative elements. However it's sexual and we should be a really sexually liberal society (lest we be seen as prudes) so therefore, don't slag the hardcore porn.

I have no problem with porn either and I don't scare monger, but I've seen stuff that is worrying.

I'm ok, it is 15/16 year olds I worry about. It's hardly sexual liberation they are being taught in these videos! It is far more condescending to men than women!

E4 did a brilliant survey on attitudes of teenage lads and girls to sex and porn is definitely affecting it.

Might be able to dig out the video tomorrow.

donfers

Links234 wrote: »

it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference. being a gamer girl, when I was playing some MMOs the sexism was enough to make me quit. comments like make "me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen/iron my shirt" might make lads giggle, but when you're in a guild and every time you say something you get a variation of those oh so funny phrases from loads of different people, it stops being funny very quickly and starts being abusive and making you feel like your opinion is less valid.

it came to a point where I wouldn't make any mention of being female while playing and then I wouldn't see the constant abuse aimed at me. but I'd get to see it aimed at other female players, and it never stops. and you might think that was just a particular group of morons, but it wasn't. I changed guilds, I changed servers, the same rancid attitudes towards women were tolerated and even encouraged. so in the end I quit and I don't play much online games

not so easy to shrug off, so it's more than a little patronizing being told to just not let it bother you by a man when it doesn't effect you.

and while we're talking about comics.

hmmmm

you seem to be under the impression that sexism only affects women, may I ask how do you know it hasn't affected me?

For me it all comes down to the simple fact that you shouldn't let idiots bother you, if they do then they kind of win....I assure you there are better ways to deal with it than to come on here and complain, no doubt 99% of posters will agree with you that it's terrible and then what....it doesn't really achieve anything does it? I mean we can all play the game about how bad we have it or find links on the net that back up our case for victimhood, that's very easy to do but I don't really see the point, we all know that sexism exists.....in my opinion it would be far more productive and effective to actively combat it where we come across it in our own lives rather than relentlessy complain about how bad you have it on the net, because honestly ultimately that mentality feeds it and is part of the cycle that perpetuates it....the trolls and provocateurs love to see extreme reactions to their baiting, you're giving them exactly what they want and encouraging them to continue, you give them a sense of power over you, the ability to know that they can affect you emotionally so easily...I'm not saying ignore these types of problems, I'm not saying they are trivial, I am saying comics and net forums are not the way to deal with it at all

oh and please tell where I was patronizing, I gave my honest opinion......did you ever consider that the comic, if you take the sexist angle out of it, is also commenting on the effects of groupthink and the rush to exaggerated labelling/targetting of the minority outside the group...i.e. with the backing of the group you are more likely to make more outlandish and aggressive accusations than you would otherwise have the sense not to, knowing the group will have your back....by the way this is something that is not exlusive to the male gender and has even been known to occur on this forum (as it does almost everywhere a dominat group exists so don't feel bad) if you want to examine things from a non-gender bias.

In conclusion, sexism is wrong, I don't underestimate the **** you have and are going through but I would recommend taking a more holistic, courageous and thoughtful approach in combatting it or it shall continue or indeed intensify for the forseeable

Dudess

I don't see any indication of anyone saying sexism only affects women.

Links234

donfers wrote: »

you seem to be under the impression that sexism only affects women

..just.... ugh...

Dudess

I've seen a number of "What about misandry here?" defences in recent threads from the usual suspects. Er yes... what about it? I ain't seeing it here myself. I've seen it used as a stick to beat women all right though.

donfers

Dudess wrote: »

I don't see any indication of anyone saying sexism only affects women.

"it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference"

seems to imply that I as a man have never experienced sexist comments

but I am sure I will be told I have misinterpreted something and the matter will be "clarified" for me, that's not necessary as I'm not bothered either way (the decoding of messages that is language was never going to be a perfect science) in any case I don't wish to sidetrack this thread any further, I offered my opinion, that's it as far as I'm concerned

oh and if you want to counter the "what about misandry here" defence you'll have to find it first otherwise you'll just be arguing with yourself

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

I've seen a number of "What about misandry here?" defences in recent threads from the usual suspects. Er yes... what about it? I ain't seeing it here myself. I've seen it used as a stick to beat women all right though.

Isn't it the opposite, who cares if certain posts are mysandrist? It is used to beat men after all. AH has far more posters willing to protest at Misogyny.

Black Swan

In any population their will be a minority of jerks that cause most of the trouble, be they immature, or sexists, or bullies, or criminals, or whatever. I think the same can be said about the Internet, and especially of boards.ie, where most posters I have encountered over the past years have been pretty good sorts regardless of their gender.

ali.c

Interesting topic and replies. For me I wonder if every poster was identified by their real name would it reduce these type of responses and if so why? Is it an outlet for views that cannot be aired in the same way in normal social settings? I do think that some people hide behind their keyboard.

I agree that it is not something to take personally, but if it is an ongoing regular occurence how does ignoring it help? Surely the ultimate end to that train of logic is to withdraw from the community: who wins then?

As long as you're going to have certain levels of anonymity on the internet, then there will be those "keyboard warriors". To give an example; I use internet dating and some of the women I talk to are absolutely amazed at the messages they receive - i.e. you have nice tits, want to have sex? etc. etc.

Any time I hear things like that it genuinely makes me feel ashamed to consider that we are of the same gender, let alone the same species, and often find myself apologising for my gender.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

As long as you're going to have certain levels of anonymity on the internet, then there will be those "keyboard warriors".

Oh I agree. I prefer to think of it as a better idiot filter though. Because a) they're too weak to actually express an opinion and b) you get to see more of them behind the mask and c) too stupid to realise this. I would also find it useful in another way, namely that because of the anonymity you may see a general undercurrent you normally wouldn't. I know that since I've been here my mind has been changed on a couple of points as far as peoples attitudes(particularly gender issues on both sides). I am also aware that there is a demographic angle at work, but this has gotten lesser with time as more and more just see it as another means of communication.

Dudess

BAB, no need to go apologising for your gender - that's like kinda taking accountability for their idiocy.

liah

Don't think I need to say anything really, you all saw what happened the last time anyone tried to do something about it on here. It all just ends in a big nitpick fest rather than an actual discussion of the sentiment.

No point arguing against it, or at least I've given up anyway. Depressing.

liah

liah wrote: »

Don't think I need to say anything really, you all saw what happened the last time anyone tried to do something about it on here. It all just ends in a big nitpick fest rather than an actual discussion of the sentiment.

No point arguing against it, or at least I've given up anyway. Depressing.

It's the nature of most arguments on here though - they never reach a concrete ending and will get nitpicked beyond belief. Look at most debates that happen anywhere on boards.