Discussions about sexism on the internet...

Nevyn

I read this and was struck by how true it as in many many threads I have seen in many forums over this site esp in the last 3 years. IS it true for anyone else?


http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/?p=1444

In which we betray our gender

Published on October 29, 2010 by gabby

The comic below is a compulsive response to a recent, entirely unremarkable little dust-up over on Twitter concerning the excruciatingly polite, brief comments of a certain cartoonist concerning the way dudes talk about women cartoonists — and the ****storm of whiny nonsensical defensive outrage that inevitably followed, just like any other time anyone on the internet has ever hinted at the possibility that perhaps, maybe, women could be treated a little more like, you know, humans.

But people can be weird, man. People — straight, male people, in particular — sure can have some strange misconceptions about how the world spins. Also, they are usually loud. Anyway, this cartoon will be of no help at all in changing our stupid, sexist culture of rape, murder, domination and bad tv — in fact, it hardly even qualifies as entertainment (although there is one kitten, scroll down to the bottom to skip straight to it!). But drawing this certainly made me feel better, so it made the cut. Don’t think I don’t know how I make you suffer, dear, patient reader!

If for some insane reason you would like to look at this so big that it expands across almost your entire screen, you are welcome to click upon it twice and “take it there.”

Links234

incredibly true, sadly

jokettle

Maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly think this is the only forum where I can express a genuine opinion without fearing a comment along the lines of "there are wimminz on teh internetz? lol" or a reference to sandwichs/kitchens, blah blah blah.

It's exhausting.

Silverfish

jokettle wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly think this is the only forum where I can express a genuine opinion without fearing a comment along the lines of "there are wimminz on teh internetz? lol" or a reference to sandwichs/kitchens, blah blah blah.

It's exhausting.

I should undelete all the comments we've deleted over the years, you would all be horrified

Faith

The worst thing about it is, when you call someone on making a really sexist remark, you get a reply going "It's a JOKE!!111!1 Why can't you just take a joke? We joke about everything!!" and they just can't get their heads around the idea that it's not someone making a joke we object to, it's the constant, repeated sexist crap that's wrapped up as a joke that we object to.

I really don't see the difference between "Bitch, get back in the kitchen, lulz" and "N***er, get back in the cotton fields, lulz" or something. Except one is socially acceptable and the other isn't.

Red Hand

True enough. It's fairly prevalent in a couple of forums here, AH mainly. The Feedback thread was an eye opener for me.

metrovelvet

Its not the sexist remarks and jokes that bother me. Its the sexists dynamics that bother me. It recently happened on feedback where a thread was started commenting on some of the content on Afterhours and in the end SHE ended up apologising.

ANd the other thing is that its not always a male to female thing either, women do it to other women too.

And it usually starts with calling someone hypersensitive.

Feeona

metrovelvet wrote: »

It recently happened on feedback where a thread was started commenting on some of the content on Afterhours and in the end SHE ended up apologising.

Yeah that was disturbing. Reminded me of the story 'The Emperor's New Clothes'.

Chuchoter

That comic writer thinks her opinions are important.
Her opinions on sandwiches are the only thing thats important!

And so on and so forth...

Some parts of this board (and indeed the whole internet) are very difficult to participate in if you're talking about anything even remotely related to women from a womans perspective, you get a variety of things varying from disgust (current thread 'what us women go through' on AH) for example to 'get back in the kitchen' remarks. There is also a great reluctance to see women as skills first looks second. On AH women are very objectified.

donfers

I saw this on another forum a few hours ago, the reactions to it were completely the opposite to what is being said here and mostly from women too.....after reading it I thought the comic would find great sympathy here


it makes some interesting points but my opinion is that ultimately it's a load of garbage and based on a lot of poor and fallacious arguments but I would never deny the right of the artist to provoke.........what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think because anyone who thinks that forums like AH or TLL are reflective of society at large is an idiot, most people are moderates and have no especially entrenched political affiliations, they can be swayed occassionally by one emotive issue of the day or another but other than that they wouldn't let comments on the net like "women who sleep with a guy on the first date are sluts" or "every man is potentially a rapist" or "I want to fcuk you because I like your post/comic" get to them or affect their lives, I am not so much worried by the people who come out with this kind of stuff as those that let that stuff affect them so much that it truly bothers them...I have had a few arguments on the net but always in a dispassionate curious way....anyone who gets enraged by moronic comments from strangers is also a moron and validating not just the strategy of the provocateur but the provacateur himself/herself....so my suggestion would be to chill out and not to over-estimate the influence of this guff, because honestly most people see it as just that.....however the thing I would warn against is playing the sexism card when it is not there just because someone happens to disagree with you, I find that disingenuous and almost devious and counter=productive the more worthy anti-sexist campaigns....I won't warble on anymore...I think sexism should be stamped out when it has a real impact on a man or woman's life...but obviously the problem there is we have different interpretations of what that impact is....my opinion is that sexist comments on the net shouldn't bother people too much especially when the over-the-top stuff is promptly moderated. Of course I am aware most people on this forum will probably disagree with my viewpoint and I respect that and I am grateful that I am given the opportunity to express myself here which is the ultimate proof that you are fair-minded.

luna77

I agree that sexism on the internet exists - not so much from the forums/blogging point of view but having worked in the industry myself a few years back.
Webdesign and most of the technical nuts and bolts of the interent is pretty much a boys playground. Why is this? Because Girls hardly ever choose technical subjects in college. I was 1 of 4 girls in 120 doing computer programming in university and I'm sure this has not changed much in the last few years.
So if the boys think this is their territory they would be right because we haven't made an effort to step up...I really wish this wasn't the case.

Johro

crayolastereo wrote: »

On AH women are very objectified.

A lot of AH posters have only just learnt to spell (or not, as the case may be), and quite a few of it's posts look like the private dreams of eight to twelve year olds. I wouldn't take those comments too seriously.

Chuchoter

donfers wrote: »

I saw this on another forum a few hours ago, the reactions to it were completely the opposite to what is being said here and mostly from women too.....after reading it I thought the comic would find great sympathy here


it makes some interesting points but my opinion is that ultimately it's a load of garbage and based on a lot of poor and fallacious arguments but I would never deny the right of the artist to provoke.........what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think because anyone who thinks that forums like AH or TLL are reflective of society at large is an idiot, most people are moderates and have no especially entrenched political affiliations, they can be swayed occassionally by one emotive issue of the day or another but other than that they wouldn't let comments on the net like "women who sleep with a guy on the first date are sluts" or "every man is potentially a rapist" or "I want to fcuk you because I like your post/comic" get to them or affect their lives, I am not so much worried by the people who come out with this kind of stuff as those that let that stuff affect them so much that it truly bothers them...I have had a few arguments on the net but always in a dispassionate curious way....anyone who gets enraged by moronic comments from strangers is also a moron and validating not just the strategy of the provocateur but the provacateur himself/herself....so my suggestion would be to chill out and not to over-estimate the influence of this guff, because honestly most people see it as just that.....however the thing I would warn against is playing the sexism card when it is not there just because someone happens to disagree with you, I find that disingenuous and almost devious and counter=productive the more worthy anti-sexist campaigns....I won't warble on anymore...I think sexism should be stamped out when it has a real impact on a man or woman's life...but obviously the problem there is we have different interpretations of what that impact is....my opinion is that sexist comments on the net shouldn't bother people too much especially when the over-the-top stuff is promptly moderated. Of course I am aware most people on this forum will probably disagree with my viewpoint and I respect that and I am grateful that I am given the opportunity to express myself here which is the ultimate proof that you are fair-minded.

Its all well and good when its a few trolls, but frankly its a large percentage of the online community. Thats why there are so few women within internet communities in general, because you just aren't welcome. Boards is actually one of the few places I know where I can't count the number of active female members on my fingers tbh.

Luna77: In terms of there being few women taking computer subjects/technical subjects in general, I can put this entirely down to the over-prominence of single sex schools in Ireland. I would have loved the chance to take engineering or technology, but its not on offer. I barely have a physics class.

Johro: Lol even excluding the 8-12 age bracket, I remember being on AH being the only person saying that mainstream porn objectified women and the women involved have little protection in their job and that the majority (not all) of the women involved probably had some outside problem in their life. I watch porn, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite, but I'm not going to go around extolling its moral virtues. I just found it hard to believe an entire forum worth of people could not see that mainstream porn objectified women.

Johro

crayolastereo wrote: »

Johro: Lol even excluding the 8-12 age bracket, I remember being on AH being the only person saying that mainstream porn objectified women and the women involved have little protection in their job and that the majority (not all) of the women involved probably had some outside problem in their life. I watch porn, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite, but I'm not going to go around extolling its moral virtues. I just found it hard to believe an entire forum worth of people could not see that mainstream porn objectified women.

Never saw that particular discussion, it is hard to believe. Maybe some of the guys on at the time didn't want to be seen as agreeing with you in case they got ridiculed for it? It's only a theory, may not be true at all, would be kinda sad if it were. The thing about guys is though, talk to a group of them and they're assholes, get a guy on his own and chat and you'll get his true feelings on the subject, or any subject for that matter. Okay some guys will lie to ya just to come across as a nice guy, but I think that privately most of them would feel the same as you do when they really think about it. I've watched porn. I didn't particularly like it. It's so false, and what I did see I found kinda disturbing for it's lack of feeling, the women/girls in it really were treated like pieces of meat, jostled into different positions whenever the male character felt the need, the whole porn thing feels like a kind of slavery. Maybe there's better stuff out there if you're into it but it just put me off. I might just be old-fashioned though, but I got to at least like a girl and have chatted with her before I'd even think of sex, what was going on there was just mechanical.

Links234

donfers wrote: »

what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think

it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference. being a gamer girl, when I was playing some MMOs the sexism was enough to make me quit. comments like make "me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen/iron my shirt" might make lads giggle, but when you're in a guild and every time you say something you get a variation of those oh so funny phrases from loads of different people, it stops being funny very quickly and starts being abusive and making you feel like your opinion is less valid.

it came to a point where I wouldn't make any mention of being female while playing and then I wouldn't see the constant abuse aimed at me. but I'd get to see it aimed at other female players, and it never stops. and you might think that was just a particular group of morons, but it wasn't. I changed guilds, I changed servers, the same rancid attitudes towards women were tolerated and even encouraged. so in the end I quit and I don't play much online games

not so easy to shrug off, so it's more than a little patronizing being told to just not let it bother you by a man when it doesn't effect you.

and while we're talking about comics.

Dudess

Oh my god Crayolastereo, I had exactly this conversation with a male friend tonight - the way you can't open your fucking mouth about extreme hardcore porn in which women are depicted as being totally debased. If you object and you're female, you're a man-hater; if you object and you're male, you're a wuss. I don't believe all women involved in hardcore porn were abused, have addictions etc - plenty choose the line of work - but it's hardly an industry without exploitative elements. However it's sexual and we should be a really sexually liberal society (lest we be seen as prudes) so therefore, don't slag the hardcore porn.

Unbelievable undercurrent of woman-hating on Boards - and then there are the "Well there are lots of man-haters here too" comebacks. Eh... not that I've seen tbh. I appreciate there are far less women than men though here, but still, all I've ever seen is the odd stupid "All men are bastards" comment which is quickly clamped down upon, by both men and women... whereas it seems some of the woman-hating is allowed to fester.

And I wonder do the guys who have to bring physical appearance into EVERY discussion EVER concerning a woman or women ever feel embarrassed about how stupid they look? They just come across as having sod all dealings with women. Not saying it should never be mentioned - of course not - but when it's of absolutely zilch relevance to the thread, it's pitiful. Often it's mentioned if the woman concerned is not a likeable one - "She's an ugly bitch too, if I had a bag of mickeys I wouldn't give her one". Great. And of course if you dare comment on the off topic focus on a woman's looks, you're either jealous (if she's good-looking) or unattractive (if she's also unattractive). There are certain threads where you feel like you have to bloody well walk on egg-shells...

A lot of the jokes and "sexist" comments are tongue-in-cheek and good-natured though - I wouldn't pay attention to those at all, and often find them hilarious. It's the dynamics Metrovelvet referred to - far more unpleasant IMO.

K-9

Links234 wrote: »

it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference. being a gamer girl, when I was playing some MMOs the sexism was enough to make me quit. comments like make "me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen/iron my shirt" might make lads giggle, but when you're in a guild and every time you say something you get a variation of those oh so funny phrases from loads of different people, it stops being funny very quickly and starts being abusive and making you feel like your opinion is less valid.

it came to a point where I wouldn't make any mention of being female while playing and then I wouldn't see the constant abuse aimed at me. but I'd get to see it aimed at other female players, and it never stops. and you might think that was just a particular group of morons, but it wasn't. I changed guilds, I changed servers, the same rancid attitudes towards women were tolerated and even encouraged. so in the end I quit and I don't play much online games

not so easy to shrug off, so it's more than a little patronizing being told to just not let it bother you by a man when it doesn't effect you.

and while we're talking about comics.

Being an Unmarried Dad in Ireland I can imagine that scenario.

I went through the "blame women" in every context, because a woman was my enemy in that particular scenario, so it transferred to every woman.

Then I seen the bigger picture and realised both sexes are discriminated against because of stereotypes.I was good enough to be the main carer in a relationship but suddenly, because of a split, I was no longer good enough!

Sex shouldn't come into it in an ideal world!

I'll be called a white knight for posting sympathetically in this thread! The answer is, "who the feck cares?"

My son was bullied when he was 7/8. Far too sensitive and largely my own fault. Forward a few years and he laughs at the bullies, because I looked at it from a, "why are they threatened?" picture.

Not the "make sure you show them" self portrait.

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

but it's hardly an industry without exploitative elements. However it's sexual and we should be a really sexually liberal society (lest we be seen as prudes) so therefore, don't slag the hardcore porn.

I have no problem with porn either and I don't scare monger, but I've seen stuff that is worrying.

I'm ok, it is 15/16 year olds I worry about. It's hardly sexual liberation they are being taught in these videos! It is far more condescending to men than women!

E4 did a brilliant survey on attitudes of teenage lads and girls to sex and porn is definitely affecting it.

Might be able to dig out the video tomorrow.

donfers

Links234 wrote: »

it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference. being a gamer girl, when I was playing some MMOs the sexism was enough to make me quit. comments like make "me a sandwich/get back in the kitchen/iron my shirt" might make lads giggle, but when you're in a guild and every time you say something you get a variation of those oh so funny phrases from loads of different people, it stops being funny very quickly and starts being abusive and making you feel like your opinion is less valid.

it came to a point where I wouldn't make any mention of being female while playing and then I wouldn't see the constant abuse aimed at me. but I'd get to see it aimed at other female players, and it never stops. and you might think that was just a particular group of morons, but it wasn't. I changed guilds, I changed servers, the same rancid attitudes towards women were tolerated and even encouraged. so in the end I quit and I don't play much online games

not so easy to shrug off, so it's more than a little patronizing being told to just not let it bother you by a man when it doesn't effect you.

and while we're talking about comics.

hmmmm

you seem to be under the impression that sexism only affects women, may I ask how do you know it hasn't affected me?

For me it all comes down to the simple fact that you shouldn't let idiots bother you, if they do then they kind of win....I assure you there are better ways to deal with it than to come on here and complain, no doubt 99% of posters will agree with you that it's terrible and then what....it doesn't really achieve anything does it? I mean we can all play the game about how bad we have it or find links on the net that back up our case for victimhood, that's very easy to do but I don't really see the point, we all know that sexism exists.....in my opinion it would be far more productive and effective to actively combat it where we come across it in our own lives rather than relentlessy complain about how bad you have it on the net, because honestly ultimately that mentality feeds it and is part of the cycle that perpetuates it....the trolls and provocateurs love to see extreme reactions to their baiting, you're giving them exactly what they want and encouraging them to continue, you give them a sense of power over you, the ability to know that they can affect you emotionally so easily...I'm not saying ignore these types of problems, I'm not saying they are trivial, I am saying comics and net forums are not the way to deal with it at all

oh and please tell where I was patronizing, I gave my honest opinion......did you ever consider that the comic, if you take the sexist angle out of it, is also commenting on the effects of groupthink and the rush to exaggerated labelling/targetting of the minority outside the group...i.e. with the backing of the group you are more likely to make more outlandish and aggressive accusations than you would otherwise have the sense not to, knowing the group will have your back....by the way this is something that is not exlusive to the male gender and has even been known to occur on this forum (as it does almost everywhere a dominat group exists so don't feel bad) if you want to examine things from a non-gender bias.

In conclusion, sexism is wrong, I don't underestimate the **** you have and are going through but I would recommend taking a more holistic, courageous and thoughtful approach in combatting it or it shall continue or indeed intensify for the forseeable

Dudess

I don't see any indication of anyone saying sexism only affects women.

Links234

donfers wrote: »

you seem to be under the impression that sexism only affects women

..just.... ugh...

Dudess

I've seen a number of "What about misandry here?" defences in recent threads from the usual suspects. Er yes... what about it? I ain't seeing it here myself. I've seen it used as a stick to beat women all right though.

donfers

Dudess wrote: »

I don't see any indication of anyone saying sexism only affects women.

"it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference"

seems to imply that I as a man have never experienced sexist comments

but I am sure I will be told I have misinterpreted something and the matter will be "clarified" for me, that's not necessary as I'm not bothered either way (the decoding of messages that is language was never going to be a perfect science) in any case I don't wish to sidetrack this thread any further, I offered my opinion, that's it as far as I'm concerned

oh and if you want to counter the "what about misandry here" defence you'll have to find it first otherwise you'll just be arguing with yourself

K-9

Dudess wrote: »

I've seen a number of "What about misandry here?" defences in recent threads from the usual suspects. Er yes... what about it? I ain't seeing it here myself. I've seen it used as a stick to beat women all right though.

Isn't it the opposite, who cares if certain posts are mysandrist? It is used to beat men after all. AH has far more posters willing to protest at Misogyny.

Black Swan

In any population their will be a minority of jerks that cause most of the trouble, be they immature, or sexists, or bullies, or criminals, or whatever. I think the same can be said about the Internet, and especially of boards.ie, where most posters I have encountered over the past years have been pretty good sorts regardless of their gender.

ali.c

Interesting topic and replies. For me I wonder if every poster was identified by their real name would it reduce these type of responses and if so why? Is it an outlet for views that cannot be aired in the same way in normal social settings? I do think that some people hide behind their keyboard.

I agree that it is not something to take personally, but if it is an ongoing regular occurence how does ignoring it help? Surely the ultimate end to that train of logic is to withdraw from the community: who wins then?

As long as you're going to have certain levels of anonymity on the internet, then there will be those "keyboard warriors". To give an example; I use internet dating and some of the women I talk to are absolutely amazed at the messages they receive - i.e. you have nice tits, want to have sex? etc. etc.

Any time I hear things like that it genuinely makes me feel ashamed to consider that we are of the same gender, let alone the same species, and often find myself apologising for my gender.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

As long as you're going to have certain levels of anonymity on the internet, then there will be those "keyboard warriors".

Oh I agree. I prefer to think of it as a better idiot filter though. Because a) they're too weak to actually express an opinion and b) you get to see more of them behind the mask and c) too stupid to realise this. I would also find it useful in another way, namely that because of the anonymity you may see a general undercurrent you normally wouldn't. I know that since I've been here my mind has been changed on a couple of points as far as peoples attitudes(particularly gender issues on both sides). I am also aware that there is a demographic angle at work, but this has gotten lesser with time as more and more just see it as another means of communication.

Dudess

BAB, no need to go apologising for your gender - that's like kinda taking accountability for their idiocy.

liah

Don't think I need to say anything really, you all saw what happened the last time anyone tried to do something about it on here. It all just ends in a big nitpick fest rather than an actual discussion of the sentiment.

No point arguing against it, or at least I've given up anyway. Depressing.

liah

liah wrote: »

Don't think I need to say anything really, you all saw what happened the last time anyone tried to do something about it on here. It all just ends in a big nitpick fest rather than an actual discussion of the sentiment.

No point arguing against it, or at least I've given up anyway. Depressing.

It's the nature of most arguments on here though - they never reach a concrete ending and will get nitpicked beyond belief. Look at most debates that happen anywhere on boards.

Links234

donfers wrote: »

"it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference"

seems to imply that I as a man have never experienced sexist comments

no you implied that all by yourself

If it couldn't be any clearer from the context, we were clearly talking about the kinds of comments aimed at women (eg, "the sexist comments" as you quoted me saying), the comments you told everyone to shrug off/ignore/don't let it get to you. So saying that it's easy for you to say ignore the sexist comments (the sexist comments aimed at women) or that you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that (the receiving end of the sexist comments aimed at women), it's not implying that men don't experience sexism.

and then if it wasn't clear enough, I gave you an example of my experience of the kind of sexist comments (the sexist comments aimed at women, just so we're still on the same page here) and how I felt bullied out of playing online games because of it.

donfers wrote: »

but I am sure I will be told I have misinterpreted something and the matter will be "clarified" for me, that's not necessary as I'm not bothered either way (the decoding of messages that is language was never going to be a perfect science) in any case I don't wish to sidetrack this thread any further, I offered my opinion, that's it as far as I'm concerned

love the condescending way you say the matter will be "clarified" for you, and that you don't care anyway because you've had your say and that's all that matters. wonderful. :rolleyes:

Dr. Zeus

"Nothing is sexist until I say it is" "plus I love women so lick my balls!

This attitude sums up many AH posters perfectly. The worrying part is that they don't even see this as sexist.

For some reason there is this attitude on boards that sexism relates to
matters such as maternity/paternity, equal pay. child custody etc.
Whereas its more subtle forms of sexism such as valuing women soley based on their looks which are more damaging.

The thread of the Chilean miners rescue descended into a couple of posters complaining that the women were a disappointment in the looks department. I mean seriously.

Everyone one presumes I am a female straight off and I have also been called gay as I drawn attention to sexism against women. Not that I am complaining I am not insulted with being called a woman or gay. It's just interesting.

Wibbs

liah wrote: »

Don't think I need to say anything really, you all saw what happened the last time anyone tried to do something about it on here. It all just ends in a big nitpick fest rather than an actual discussion of the sentiment.

No point arguing against it, or at least I've given up anyway. Depressing.

You shouldnt be depressed about it, nor should you give up. Oh if you stick your head up above the crowd you will get noticed even attacked. So what? Better to stick your head up than be one of the crowd. FWIW while I didn't agree with all of your take on it, I agreed with some but I defo respected you for taking that position, especially as so few backed you up. Get used to that too. Regardless keep plugging away.

Ectoplasm

I laughed my head off at that cartoon because, sadly, it is so on the money. Particular grin for the logic forcefield. I knew they existed!!

I sympathise with those who get or feel defeated when these issues come up. I myself have withdrawn from threads because it feels like you are banging your head against a brick wall.

The two things that get to me most are the 'it's not sexist unless I say it is' comments and the 'what about me' thing.

The 'it's not sexist unless I say it is' is particularly frustrating. The chances are if somebody has bothered to comment on it and gotten some agreement from other women, it probably is...but because the original poster doesn't see himself as sexist, its not :rolleyes:

The other one is actually more insidious though. The 'what about me' or the misandry comments. If someone raises an issue that affects women, I'm always amazed by the sheer number of posters who feel the need to rush in with their stories of male persecution and imply that the women are 'man-haters'. Why oh why does it have to be a competition?

Yes, sexism goes both ways - and if a guy wants to discuss a way in which he feels persecuted, he is welcome to do so, but just because men experience sexism too doesn't diminish or negate the sexism against women. It does scare me sometimes that so many seem to believe this is the case.

bluecatmorgana

I am proud to say I complained about a title of a thread in AH that called a woman a skanky whore and it was amended!!!!

High five my lady friends!

@Liah you were an inspiration to me on that particular thread you mention, it meant something to me so keep up the good work. Ever since if I see something sexist I hit the report button.

Chuchoter

What drives me insane is whenever you bring up sexist comments against women, theres always someone who goes 'BUT PEOPLE ARE MEAN TO MEN TO! WHAT ABOUT PATERNITY LEAVE!RAPE STEREOTYPES! THEREFORE MISOGYNY DOES NOT EXIST!"

Just because right this second we are discussing injustice towards women, does not mean we don't think injustice against men exists. Feminism, despite its perhaps poor choice of name, I think is equally about men as it is about women.

metrovelvet

Wibbs wrote: »

You shouldnt be depressed about it, nor should you give up. Oh if you stick your head up above the crowd you will get noticed even attacked. So what? Better to stick your head up than be one of the crowd. FWIW while I didn't agree with all of your take on it, I agreed with some but I defo respected you for taking that position, especially as so few backed you up. Get used to that too. Regardless keep plugging away.

No sorry, after that thread I concluded it's totally pointless. It was like watching gaslighting in motion. Liah got ganged up on and then they eventually converted her and she then agreed with them and apologised. And this was on Feedback, which I had wrongly thought had some sort of methodology for putting people on trial who make complaints or observations that might challenge the status quo, in this case the status quo was derogatory remarks about women, or using a gender status to demote a poster. But no there isnt and it just makes you less and less likely to bother. Why would you if you are just going to get a load of **** for it? I was really annoyed when Liah apologised.

Thats the thing about boards, calling someone a stupid ****wit can get you banned, but the more sinister, subtler former of abuses are entirely endorced, even encouraged, and I dont think this is exclusive to AH either. Sure, this happens everywhere, but everywhere doesnt have mods. If you dont have mods, fine, that's the law of anarchy, but if you have mods, then its being upheld and how.

liah

metrovelvet wrote: »

No sorry, after that thread I concluded it's totally pointless. It was like watching gaslighting in motion. Liah got ganged up on and then they eventually converted her and she then agreed with them and apologised. And this was on Feedback, which I had wrongly thought had some sort of methodology for putting people on trial who make complaints or observations that might challenge the status quo, in this case the status quo was derogatory remarks about women, or using a gender status to demote a poster. But no there isnt and it just makes you less and less likely to bother. Why would you if you are just going to get a load of **** for it? I was really annoyed when Liah apologised.

Thats the thing about boards, calling someone a stupid ****wit can get you banned, but the more sinister, subtler former of abuses are entirely endorced, even encouraged, and I dont think this is exclusive to AH either. Sure, this happens everywhere, but everywhere doesnt have mods. If you dont have mods, fine, that's the law of anarchy, but if you have mods, then its being upheld and how.

In fairness I didn't apologize for any of my argument that day. I don't think I "apologized" at all (though I don't really remember), just clarified the context of some completely unrelated posts of mine that were unnecessarily brought into the discussion. But it wasn't an apology (I don't think) for bringing it up in the first place. Anything I wrote would've been for clarification rather than actual apologizing or making excuses.

I'd like to make that clear enough. I still feel the same way about the way women are treated on here and am still absolutely torn on whether or not to bother posting anything ever a lot of the time because of it.

bronte

It's always the usual suspects that are at the root of it and it's sickening.

K-9

liah wrote: »

In fairness I didn't apologize for any of my argument that day. I don't think I "apologized" at all (though I don't really remember), just clarified the context of some completely unrelated posts of mine that were unnecessarily brought into the discussion. But it wasn't an apology (I don't think) for bringing it up in the first place. Anything I wrote would've been for clarification rather than actual apologizing or making excuses.

I'd like to make that clear enough. I still feel the same way about the way women are treated on here and am still absolutely torn on whether or not to bother posting anything ever a lot of the time because of it.

Thought you were treated very unfairly in that thread. It became more about you than the points you raised. Like Wibbs, I wouldn't have agreed with everything you said, but it was worthy of discussion.

The "what about me?" posts sum it up perfectly, it's a selfish attitude and they just aren't going to get it. They do raise points but to me, it seems they are unwilling to see the bigger picture.

metrovelvet

K-9 wrote: »

Thought you were treated very unfairly in that thread. It became more about you than the points you raised. Like Wibbs, I wouldn't have agreed with everything you said, but it was worthy of discussion.

The "what about me?" posts sum it up perfectly, it's a selfish attitude and they just aren't going to get it. They do raise points but to me, it seems they are unwilling to see the bigger picture.

That's what often happens when a woman is on the stand, the attacks become about her, her persona, her character, her perceptions her entire subject, and not about her deeds.

There have been numerous studies done on this in law schools.

That 'what about me' is just another way to stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la. The only to answer to that is 'yeah but we are not talking about you now.'

Scanlas The 2nd

Faith wrote: »

The worst thing about it is, when you call someone on making a really sexist remark, you get a reply going "It's a JOKE!!111!1 Why can't you just take a joke? We joke about everything!!" and they just can't get their heads around the idea that it's not someone making a joke we object to, it's the constant, repeated sexist crap that's wrapped up as a joke that we object to.

I really don't see the difference between "Bitch, get back in the kitchen, lulz" and "N***er, get back in the cotton fields, lulz" or something. Except one is socially acceptable and the other isn't.

Tell them next time, yes but it's at my expense, tell some at your expense.

Chinafoot

I know AH is pretty bad but, for me, Personal Issues is terrifying. I appreciate that we all use our own experiences when posting there, but Jebus, the amount of male posters with unbelievable issues with women is astounding.

The self-appointed experts on women are just as scary as the outright women haters. Its as though them being male makes their opinion on female behaviour and how women should feel more valid. I find myself putting a lot more posters on ignore these days.

Scanlas The 2nd

donfers wrote: »

I saw this on another forum a few hours ago, the reactions to it were completely the opposite to what is being said here and mostly from women too.....after reading it I thought the comic would find great sympathy here


it makes some interesting points but my opinion is that ultimately it's a load of garbage and based on a lot of poor and fallacious arguments but I would never deny the right of the artist to provoke.........what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think because anyone who thinks that forums like AH or TLL are reflective of society at large is an idiot, most people are moderates and have no especially entrenched political affiliations, they can be swayed occassionally by one emotive issue of the day or another but other than that they wouldn't let comments on the net like "women who sleep with a guy on the first date are sluts" or "every man is potentially a rapist" or "I want to fcuk you because I like your post/comic" get to them or affect their lives, I am not so much worried by the people who come out with this kind of stuff as those that let that stuff affect them so much that it truly bothers them...I have had a few arguments on the net but always in a dispassionate curious way....anyone who gets enraged by moronic comments from strangers is also a moron and validating not just the strategy of the provocateur but the provacateur himself/herself....so my suggestion would be to chill out and not to over-estimate the influence of this guff, because honestly most people see it as just that.....however the thing I would warn against is playing the sexism card when it is not there just because someone happens to disagree with you, I find that disingenuous and almost devious and counter=productive the more worthy anti-sexist campaigns....I won't warble on anymore...I think sexism should be stamped out when it has a real impact on a man or woman's life...but obviously the problem there is we have different interpretations of what that impact is....my opinion is that sexist comments on the net shouldn't bother people too much especially when the over-the-top stuff is promptly moderated. Of course I am aware most people on this forum will probably disagree with my viewpoint and I respect that and I am grateful that I am given the opportunity to express myself here which is the ultimate proof that you are fair-minded.

I wouldn't say people who get enraged by these sort of threads a morons necessarily. I think some peoples's identities and past emotional traumas are wrapped up or connected to these topics, the bad emotion it stirs in them causes them to react without thinking. They lose complete perspective due to the bad emotions they feel, their goal is to feel good again, not necessarily to make a valid point.

Dudess

Chinafoot wrote: »

I know AH is pretty bad but, for me, Personal Issues is terrifying. I appreciate that we all use our own experiences when posting there, but Jebus, the amount of male posters with unbelievable issues with women is astounding.

The self-appointed experts on women are just as scary as the outright women haters. Its as though them being male makes their opinion on female behaviour and how women should feel more valid. I find myself putting a lot more posters on ignore these days.

Yes, absolutely. I know it's worn into the ground but the "Women who are easy are only for shagging, not relationships, and I'd shag a woman on the first date but would lose respect for her because she put out" stuff is absolutely enraging.

Scanlas The 2nd

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

"Nothing is sexist until I say it is" "plus I love women so lick my balls!

This attitude sums up many AH posters perfectly. The worrying part is that they don't even see this as sexist.

For some reason there is this attitude on boards that sexism relates to
matters such as maternity/paternity, equal pay. child custody etc.
Whereas its more subtle forms of sexism such as valuing women soley based on their looks which are more damaging.

The thread of the Chilean miners rescue descended into a couple of posters complaining that the women were a disappointment in the looks department. I mean seriously.

Everyone one presumes I am a female straight off and I have also been called gay as I drawn attention to sexism against women. Not that I am complaining I am not insulted with being called a woman or gay. It's just interesting.

People are free to value you how they wish. There is nothing you can do about it. If people value me based soley on the shape of my toes there is nothing I can do about it. It is people's right to value me based on my toes if they wish.

Are you annoyed that don't get the status that you feel you deserve based on your other qualities? If that is the case, once again I say, people have the right to perceive you how they wish. Why do you think you should be able to dictate and overide people's freedom of beliefs and values. Accept the things you can't ( and shouldn't) control and you will be a happier person.

southsiderosie

K-9 wrote: »

E4 did a brilliant survey on attitudes of teenage lads and girls to sex and porn is definitely affecting it.

And this is exactly why the level of misogyny in online forums is disturbing; I can't help but think that it legitimizes it and eventually it spills over into real life.

I'm in my early 30s, and I keep reading about these insanely sexist college parties, contests, etc, and it just seems so completely foreign to my experience in college just over a decade ago. And I can't help feel that the normalization of porn and sexist internet discourse contributes to that.

donfers wrote: »

For me it all comes down to the simple fact that you shouldn't let idiots bother you, if they do then they kind of win.

donfers wrote: »

.I'm not saying ignore these types of problems, I'm not saying they are trivial, I am saying comics and net forums are not the way to deal with it at all

Well, you are basically saying they are trivial, since women should just 'suck it up'.

donfers wrote: »

we all know that sexism exists

Do we? Not from what I have been told multiple times on boards; it has all gone away and today feminists are destroying the likes of men, women, children, and babies all over the world. Oh, and they kick puppies.

donfers wrote: »

.....in my opinion it would be far more productive and effective to actively combat it where we come across it in our own lives rather than relentlessy complain about how bad you have it on the net, because honestly ultimately that mentality feeds it and is part of the cycle that perpetuates it...

Do you actively combat sexist comments when you come across them? Because not telling people "hey, that's not cool" when they make a sexist comment is part of the cycle that perpetuates it.

Johro

bronte wrote: »

It's always the usual suspects that are at the root of it and it's sickening.

In that case should they not be reported? Or maybe you've tried?

Johro

bluecatmorgana wrote: »

I am proud to say I complained about a title of a thread in AH that called a woman a skanky whore and it was amended!!!!

So did I. Funnily enough I got four thanks, all women.

Scanlas The 2nd

southsiderosie wrote: »

And this is exactly why the level of misogyny in online forums is disturbing; I can't help but think that it legitimizes it and eventually it spills over into real life.

I'm in my early 30s, and I keep reading about these insanely sexist college parties, contests, etc, and it just seems so completely foreign to my experience in college just over a decade ago. And I can't help feel that the normalization of porn and sexist internet discourse contributes to that.





Well, you are basically saying they are trivial, since women should just 'suck it up'.



Do we? Not from what I have been told multiple times on boards; it has all gone away and today feminists are destroying the likes of men, women, children, and babies all over the world. Oh, and they kick puppies.



Do you actively combat sexist comments when you come across them? Because not telling people "hey, that's not cool" when they make a sexist comment is part of the cycle that perpetuates it.

I don't think I have ever come across a mysogynist, they appear to be a work of fiction to me, much like the lough ness monster. Maybe I'll dress up as this mythical mysogynist and head out trick or treating.

What do people hear think mysogyny means? As far as I'm aware it is a hatred of women. I've never met anyone who hates women in general. I've come across people who think women are inferior to men, I don't know what you'd call that though.