Discussions about sexism on the internet...

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donfers wrote: »

"it's ok for you to say to women to ignore or shrug off the sexist comments because they don't effect you and aren't aimed at you. you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, you've got no frame of reference"

seems to imply that I as a man have never experienced sexist comments

no you implied that all by yourself

If it couldn't be any clearer from the context, we were clearly talking about the kinds of comments aimed at women (eg, "the sexist comments" as you quoted me saying), the comments you told everyone to shrug off/ignore/don't let it get to you. So saying that it's easy for you to say ignore the sexist comments (the sexist comments aimed at women) or that you don't know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that (the receiving end of the sexist comments aimed at women), it's not implying that men don't experience sexism.

and then if it wasn't clear enough, I gave you an example of my experience of the kind of sexist comments (the sexist comments aimed at women, just so we're still on the same page here) and how I felt bullied out of playing online games because of it.

donfers wrote: »

but I am sure I will be told I have misinterpreted something and the matter will be "clarified" for me, that's not necessary as I'm not bothered either way (the decoding of messages that is language was never going to be a perfect science) in any case I don't wish to sidetrack this thread any further, I offered my opinion, that's it as far as I'm concerned

love the condescending way you say the matter will be "clarified" for you, and that you don't care anyway because you've had your say and that's all that matters. wonderful. :rolleyes:

Dr. Zeus

"Nothing is sexist until I say it is" "plus I love women so lick my balls!

This attitude sums up many AH posters perfectly. The worrying part is that they don't even see this as sexist.

For some reason there is this attitude on boards that sexism relates to
matters such as maternity/paternity, equal pay. child custody etc.
Whereas its more subtle forms of sexism such as valuing women soley based on their looks which are more damaging.

The thread of the Chilean miners rescue descended into a couple of posters complaining that the women were a disappointment in the looks department. I mean seriously.

Everyone one presumes I am a female straight off and I have also been called gay as I drawn attention to sexism against women. Not that I am complaining I am not insulted with being called a woman or gay. It's just interesting.

Wibbs

liah wrote: »

Don't think I need to say anything really, you all saw what happened the last time anyone tried to do something about it on here. It all just ends in a big nitpick fest rather than an actual discussion of the sentiment.

No point arguing against it, or at least I've given up anyway. Depressing.

You shouldnt be depressed about it, nor should you give up. Oh if you stick your head up above the crowd you will get noticed even attacked. So what? Better to stick your head up than be one of the crowd. FWIW while I didn't agree with all of your take on it, I agreed with some but I defo respected you for taking that position, especially as so few backed you up. Get used to that too. Regardless keep plugging away.

Ectoplasm

I laughed my head off at that cartoon because, sadly, it is so on the money. Particular grin for the logic forcefield. I knew they existed!!

I sympathise with those who get or feel defeated when these issues come up. I myself have withdrawn from threads because it feels like you are banging your head against a brick wall.

The two things that get to me most are the 'it's not sexist unless I say it is' comments and the 'what about me' thing.

The 'it's not sexist unless I say it is' is particularly frustrating. The chances are if somebody has bothered to comment on it and gotten some agreement from other women, it probably is...but because the original poster doesn't see himself as sexist, its not :rolleyes:

The other one is actually more insidious though. The 'what about me' or the misandry comments. If someone raises an issue that affects women, I'm always amazed by the sheer number of posters who feel the need to rush in with their stories of male persecution and imply that the women are 'man-haters'. Why oh why does it have to be a competition?

Yes, sexism goes both ways - and if a guy wants to discuss a way in which he feels persecuted, he is welcome to do so, but just because men experience sexism too doesn't diminish or negate the sexism against women. It does scare me sometimes that so many seem to believe this is the case.

bluecatmorgana

I am proud to say I complained about a title of a thread in AH that called a woman a skanky whore and it was amended!!!!

High five my lady friends!

@Liah you were an inspiration to me on that particular thread you mention, it meant something to me so keep up the good work. Ever since if I see something sexist I hit the report button.

Chuchoter

What drives me insane is whenever you bring up sexist comments against women, theres always someone who goes 'BUT PEOPLE ARE MEAN TO MEN TO! WHAT ABOUT PATERNITY LEAVE!RAPE STEREOTYPES! THEREFORE MISOGYNY DOES NOT EXIST!"

Just because right this second we are discussing injustice towards women, does not mean we don't think injustice against men exists. Feminism, despite its perhaps poor choice of name, I think is equally about men as it is about women.

metrovelvet

Wibbs wrote: »

You shouldnt be depressed about it, nor should you give up. Oh if you stick your head up above the crowd you will get noticed even attacked. So what? Better to stick your head up than be one of the crowd. FWIW while I didn't agree with all of your take on it, I agreed with some but I defo respected you for taking that position, especially as so few backed you up. Get used to that too. Regardless keep plugging away.

No sorry, after that thread I concluded it's totally pointless. It was like watching gaslighting in motion. Liah got ganged up on and then they eventually converted her and she then agreed with them and apologised. And this was on Feedback, which I had wrongly thought had some sort of methodology for putting people on trial who make complaints or observations that might challenge the status quo, in this case the status quo was derogatory remarks about women, or using a gender status to demote a poster. But no there isnt and it just makes you less and less likely to bother. Why would you if you are just going to get a load of **** for it? I was really annoyed when Liah apologised.

Thats the thing about boards, calling someone a stupid ****wit can get you banned, but the more sinister, subtler former of abuses are entirely endorced, even encouraged, and I dont think this is exclusive to AH either. Sure, this happens everywhere, but everywhere doesnt have mods. If you dont have mods, fine, that's the law of anarchy, but if you have mods, then its being upheld and how.

liah

metrovelvet wrote: »

No sorry, after that thread I concluded it's totally pointless. It was like watching gaslighting in motion. Liah got ganged up on and then they eventually converted her and she then agreed with them and apologised. And this was on Feedback, which I had wrongly thought had some sort of methodology for putting people on trial who make complaints or observations that might challenge the status quo, in this case the status quo was derogatory remarks about women, or using a gender status to demote a poster. But no there isnt and it just makes you less and less likely to bother. Why would you if you are just going to get a load of **** for it? I was really annoyed when Liah apologised.

Thats the thing about boards, calling someone a stupid ****wit can get you banned, but the more sinister, subtler former of abuses are entirely endorced, even encouraged, and I dont think this is exclusive to AH either. Sure, this happens everywhere, but everywhere doesnt have mods. If you dont have mods, fine, that's the law of anarchy, but if you have mods, then its being upheld and how.

In fairness I didn't apologize for any of my argument that day. I don't think I "apologized" at all (though I don't really remember), just clarified the context of some completely unrelated posts of mine that were unnecessarily brought into the discussion. But it wasn't an apology (I don't think) for bringing it up in the first place. Anything I wrote would've been for clarification rather than actual apologizing or making excuses.

I'd like to make that clear enough. I still feel the same way about the way women are treated on here and am still absolutely torn on whether or not to bother posting anything ever a lot of the time because of it.

bronte

It's always the usual suspects that are at the root of it and it's sickening.

K-9

liah wrote: »

In fairness I didn't apologize for any of my argument that day. I don't think I "apologized" at all (though I don't really remember), just clarified the context of some completely unrelated posts of mine that were unnecessarily brought into the discussion. But it wasn't an apology (I don't think) for bringing it up in the first place. Anything I wrote would've been for clarification rather than actual apologizing or making excuses.

I'd like to make that clear enough. I still feel the same way about the way women are treated on here and am still absolutely torn on whether or not to bother posting anything ever a lot of the time because of it.

Thought you were treated very unfairly in that thread. It became more about you than the points you raised. Like Wibbs, I wouldn't have agreed with everything you said, but it was worthy of discussion.

The "what about me?" posts sum it up perfectly, it's a selfish attitude and they just aren't going to get it. They do raise points but to me, it seems they are unwilling to see the bigger picture.

metrovelvet

K-9 wrote: »

Thought you were treated very unfairly in that thread. It became more about you than the points you raised. Like Wibbs, I wouldn't have agreed with everything you said, but it was worthy of discussion.

The "what about me?" posts sum it up perfectly, it's a selfish attitude and they just aren't going to get it. They do raise points but to me, it seems they are unwilling to see the bigger picture.

That's what often happens when a woman is on the stand, the attacks become about her, her persona, her character, her perceptions her entire subject, and not about her deeds.

There have been numerous studies done on this in law schools.

That 'what about me' is just another way to stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la. The only to answer to that is 'yeah but we are not talking about you now.'

Scanlas The 2nd

Faith wrote: »

The worst thing about it is, when you call someone on making a really sexist remark, you get a reply going "It's a JOKE!!111!1 Why can't you just take a joke? We joke about everything!!" and they just can't get their heads around the idea that it's not someone making a joke we object to, it's the constant, repeated sexist crap that's wrapped up as a joke that we object to.

I really don't see the difference between "Bitch, get back in the kitchen, lulz" and "N***er, get back in the cotton fields, lulz" or something. Except one is socially acceptable and the other isn't.

Tell them next time, yes but it's at my expense, tell some at your expense.

Chinafoot

I know AH is pretty bad but, for me, Personal Issues is terrifying. I appreciate that we all use our own experiences when posting there, but Jebus, the amount of male posters with unbelievable issues with women is astounding.

The self-appointed experts on women are just as scary as the outright women haters. Its as though them being male makes their opinion on female behaviour and how women should feel more valid. I find myself putting a lot more posters on ignore these days.

Scanlas The 2nd

donfers wrote: »

I saw this on another forum a few hours ago, the reactions to it were completely the opposite to what is being said here and mostly from women too.....after reading it I thought the comic would find great sympathy here


it makes some interesting points but my opinion is that ultimately it's a load of garbage and based on a lot of poor and fallacious arguments but I would never deny the right of the artist to provoke.........what always amazes me about this kind of stuff is how people can be so affected about what strangers on the internet think because anyone who thinks that forums like AH or TLL are reflective of society at large is an idiot, most people are moderates and have no especially entrenched political affiliations, they can be swayed occassionally by one emotive issue of the day or another but other than that they wouldn't let comments on the net like "women who sleep with a guy on the first date are sluts" or "every man is potentially a rapist" or "I want to fcuk you because I like your post/comic" get to them or affect their lives, I am not so much worried by the people who come out with this kind of stuff as those that let that stuff affect them so much that it truly bothers them...I have had a few arguments on the net but always in a dispassionate curious way....anyone who gets enraged by moronic comments from strangers is also a moron and validating not just the strategy of the provocateur but the provacateur himself/herself....so my suggestion would be to chill out and not to over-estimate the influence of this guff, because honestly most people see it as just that.....however the thing I would warn against is playing the sexism card when it is not there just because someone happens to disagree with you, I find that disingenuous and almost devious and counter=productive the more worthy anti-sexist campaigns....I won't warble on anymore...I think sexism should be stamped out when it has a real impact on a man or woman's life...but obviously the problem there is we have different interpretations of what that impact is....my opinion is that sexist comments on the net shouldn't bother people too much especially when the over-the-top stuff is promptly moderated. Of course I am aware most people on this forum will probably disagree with my viewpoint and I respect that and I am grateful that I am given the opportunity to express myself here which is the ultimate proof that you are fair-minded.

I wouldn't say people who get enraged by these sort of threads a morons necessarily. I think some peoples's identities and past emotional traumas are wrapped up or connected to these topics, the bad emotion it stirs in them causes them to react without thinking. They lose complete perspective due to the bad emotions they feel, their goal is to feel good again, not necessarily to make a valid point.

Dudess

Chinafoot wrote: »

I know AH is pretty bad but, for me, Personal Issues is terrifying. I appreciate that we all use our own experiences when posting there, but Jebus, the amount of male posters with unbelievable issues with women is astounding.

The self-appointed experts on women are just as scary as the outright women haters. Its as though them being male makes their opinion on female behaviour and how women should feel more valid. I find myself putting a lot more posters on ignore these days.

Yes, absolutely. I know it's worn into the ground but the "Women who are easy are only for shagging, not relationships, and I'd shag a woman on the first date but would lose respect for her because she put out" stuff is absolutely enraging.

Scanlas The 2nd

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

"Nothing is sexist until I say it is" "plus I love women so lick my balls!

This attitude sums up many AH posters perfectly. The worrying part is that they don't even see this as sexist.

For some reason there is this attitude on boards that sexism relates to
matters such as maternity/paternity, equal pay. child custody etc.
Whereas its more subtle forms of sexism such as valuing women soley based on their looks which are more damaging.

The thread of the Chilean miners rescue descended into a couple of posters complaining that the women were a disappointment in the looks department. I mean seriously.

Everyone one presumes I am a female straight off and I have also been called gay as I drawn attention to sexism against women. Not that I am complaining I am not insulted with being called a woman or gay. It's just interesting.

People are free to value you how they wish. There is nothing you can do about it. If people value me based soley on the shape of my toes there is nothing I can do about it. It is people's right to value me based on my toes if they wish.

Are you annoyed that don't get the status that you feel you deserve based on your other qualities? If that is the case, once again I say, people have the right to perceive you how they wish. Why do you think you should be able to dictate and overide people's freedom of beliefs and values. Accept the things you can't ( and shouldn't) control and you will be a happier person.

southsiderosie

K-9 wrote: »

E4 did a brilliant survey on attitudes of teenage lads and girls to sex and porn is definitely affecting it.

And this is exactly why the level of misogyny in online forums is disturbing; I can't help but think that it legitimizes it and eventually it spills over into real life.

I'm in my early 30s, and I keep reading about these insanely sexist college parties, contests, etc, and it just seems so completely foreign to my experience in college just over a decade ago. And I can't help feel that the normalization of porn and sexist internet discourse contributes to that.

donfers wrote: »

For me it all comes down to the simple fact that you shouldn't let idiots bother you, if they do then they kind of win.

donfers wrote: »

.I'm not saying ignore these types of problems, I'm not saying they are trivial, I am saying comics and net forums are not the way to deal with it at all

Well, you are basically saying they are trivial, since women should just 'suck it up'.

donfers wrote: »

we all know that sexism exists

Do we? Not from what I have been told multiple times on boards; it has all gone away and today feminists are destroying the likes of men, women, children, and babies all over the world. Oh, and they kick puppies.

donfers wrote: »

.....in my opinion it would be far more productive and effective to actively combat it where we come across it in our own lives rather than relentlessy complain about how bad you have it on the net, because honestly ultimately that mentality feeds it and is part of the cycle that perpetuates it...

Do you actively combat sexist comments when you come across them? Because not telling people "hey, that's not cool" when they make a sexist comment is part of the cycle that perpetuates it.

Johro

bronte wrote: »

It's always the usual suspects that are at the root of it and it's sickening.

In that case should they not be reported? Or maybe you've tried?

Johro

bluecatmorgana wrote: »

I am proud to say I complained about a title of a thread in AH that called a woman a skanky whore and it was amended!!!!

So did I. Funnily enough I got four thanks, all women.

Scanlas The 2nd

southsiderosie wrote: »

And this is exactly why the level of misogyny in online forums is disturbing; I can't help but think that it legitimizes it and eventually it spills over into real life.

I'm in my early 30s, and I keep reading about these insanely sexist college parties, contests, etc, and it just seems so completely foreign to my experience in college just over a decade ago. And I can't help feel that the normalization of porn and sexist internet discourse contributes to that.





Well, you are basically saying they are trivial, since women should just 'suck it up'.



Do we? Not from what I have been told multiple times on boards; it has all gone away and today feminists are destroying the likes of men, women, children, and babies all over the world. Oh, and they kick puppies.



Do you actively combat sexist comments when you come across them? Because not telling people "hey, that's not cool" when they make a sexist comment is part of the cycle that perpetuates it.

I don't think I have ever come across a mysogynist, they appear to be a work of fiction to me, much like the lough ness monster. Maybe I'll dress up as this mythical mysogynist and head out trick or treating.

What do people hear think mysogyny means? As far as I'm aware it is a hatred of women. I've never met anyone who hates women in general. I've come across people who think women are inferior to men, I don't know what you'd call that though.

donfers

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I wouldn't say people who get enraged by these sort of threads a morons necessarily. I think some peoples's identities and past emotional traumas are wrapped up or connected to these topics, the bad emotion it stirs in them causes them to react without thinking. They lose complete perspective due to the bad emotions they feel, their goal is to feel good again, not necessarily to make a valid point.

That's a fair point, morons was the wrong word to use

Dudess

Johro wrote: »

In that case should they not be reported? Or maybe you've tried?

I have. Head. Brick. Wall. There are three of them in particular - their posts disgust me.

That "skanky whore" thread was horrible - one of the usual crew came along with "If this were about a woman, the feminazis would be bla bla". Would they? On Boards? Haha - funny! And what actual value did that contribution have to the thread other than to push an agenda? I'd love to know who this mythical group of feminazis on Boards is. Oh wait... it's actually just women speaking out against misogyny, therefore man-hating feminazis...

Ickle Magoo

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I don't think I have ever come across a mysogynist, they appear to be a work of fiction to me, much like the lough ness monster. Maybe I'll dress up as this mythical mysogynist and head out trick or treating.

What do people hear think mysogyny means? As far as I'm aware it is a hatred of women. I've never met anyone who hates women in general. I've come across people who think women are inferior to men, I don't know what you'd call that though.

It's LOCH ness...have some respect for poor nessie! :mad:

:pac:

As for misogyny wrongly being assumed to only be the absolute hatred of women across the board, I think Athenaeus summed it up way back in the 2/3rd century:

"When some one told Sophocles that Euripides was a woman-hater, 'He may be,' said he, 'in his tragedies, but in his bed he is very fond of women.'"

bronte

Johro wrote: »

In that case should they not be reported? Or maybe you've tried?

I have actually.
Falls on deaf ears, it would appear.

Johro

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I've come across people who think women are inferior to men, I don't know what you'd call that though.

Thick, stupid, dense, whichever you prefer.

Johro

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's LOCH ness...have some respect for poor nessie! :mad:

:pac:

As for misogyny wrongly being assumed to only be the absolute hatred of women across the board, I think Athenaeus summed it up way back in the 2/3rd century:

"When some one told Sophocles that Euripides was a woman-hater, 'He may be,' said he, 'in his tragedies, but in his bed he is very fond of women.'"

That's fairly typical of the kinda thing this thread is about then. :rolleyes:

southsiderosie

Originally Posted by Scanlas The 2nd
I wouldn't say people who get enraged by these sort of threads a morons necessarily. I think some peoples's identities and past emotional traumas are wrapped up or connected to these topics, the bad emotion it stirs in them causes them to react without thinking. They lose complete perspective due to the bad emotions they feel, their goal is to feel good again, not necessarily to make a valid point.

Wow. So women who are angry about sexist comments, or dismissive treatment from male posters are just letting their emotions get the best of them? Talk about the classic response to a woman daring to voice a negative opinion about something. I'm surprised you didn't just flat out call these people hysterical.

I don't have past emotional trauma. I don't have Daddy issues. And even if I did, it would not mean that my feelings weren't valid.

Stop trying to tell women that they are just being emotional. Stop trying to tell then that they should get over it or not let it bother them. Stop plugging your ears and singing 'lalalalala' when something is patently obvious: the majority of internet forums, including the most trafficked one on this website ooze machismo, and women who try to protest that attitude get slapped down pretty quickly - as do the men who speak up when they see this kind of stuff happening. Just because YOU don't see it doesn't mean it is not there.

Dudess

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As for misogyny wrongly being assumed to only be the absolute hatred of women across the board, I think Athenaeus summed it up way back in the 2/3rd century:

"When some one told Sophocles that Euripides was a woman-hater, 'He may be,' said he, 'in his tragedies, but in his bed he is very fond of women.'"

Oh yeah, there's one AH guy who writes APPALLING stuff about women, but then goes on about getting his hole regularly and enjoying when women dress like "sluts". I'm actually scared of views like that...

Johro

Dudess wrote: »

I have. Head. Brick. Wall. There are three of them in particular - their posts disgust me.

bronte wrote: »

I have actually.
Falls on deaf ears, it would appear.

Don't mods talk to other mods on boards? You'd think one of them would post a warning to say that blatant sexist remarks will result in a ban. It would have to be be pretty unequivocal though.. There's a problem when some posts are regarded by some as tongue in cheek humorous and others hurtful and offensive. If there are repeat offenders they should just be banned, no question about it.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's LOCH ness...have some respect for poor nessie! :mad:

:pac:

As for misogyny wrongly being assumed to only be the absolute hatred of women across the board, I think Athenaeus summed it up way back in the 2/3rd century:

"When some one told Sophocles that Euripides was a woman-hater, 'He may be,' said he, 'in his tragedies, but in his bed he is very fond of women.'"

They are not separate issues but that's a whole other discussion.