Discussions about sexism on the internet...

K-9

southsiderosie wrote: »

Given that there is a 'thanks' function, and it is used quite liberally in response to what are often miserable posts, I would say that there is a great deal of explicit acceptance of these kinds of comments.

In fairness, I've thanked the odd "get thee back to the kitchen" comments, but it was clear it was taking the piss.

donfers

ok let's cut to the chase

1, it seems some people have a problem with sexism on boards.ie as I see the same 6 or 7 people thanking each others posts which are all basically making the same point that they believe that sexism exists on boards and that it offends them

2. thus can it be said they believe that boards isn't being moderated properly?

3. thus they can actively combat that perceived sexism here and the supposed damage it is causing (some have said they have tried in vain to do this) or perhaps they can move to a forum that is more in line with their way of thinking or perhaps as some have hinted they confine themselves to particular forums on boards which are moderated in accordance with what they believe is acceptable, three options there

4 is it reasonable to expect a consistent line of moderation across boards when what is considered offensive is down to subjective whim of an individual mod? absolutely not in my view

5 what is the best possible outcome of highlighting perceived sexism on these boards - as I have already stated there is no doubt in my mind the worst stuff is removed - how do we define where sexism is actually at play? and if successful in achieving that impossible subjective definition then what is the ultimate goal, to remove those posters who have sexist views, what good will that do?

The cause is noble but the methodology, approach, strategy and mode of thinking here, just in my opinion, are amateurish, counter-productive and short-sighted.

Let's assume that 10 people press the report button because a guy in AH tells a girl to get back to the kitchen. The poster is infracted or warned or banned for a while. We assume the message is that this sort of stuff is unacceptable. But the reality is that this message is only understood by those already aware that such a comment is unacceptable. For those who do have a fondness for sexist remarks the backlash is a validation of their act, it also encourages others to follow suit and finally emboldens the like-minded to support their "wronged" comrade, they may not go along with his original comment, but they do go against the censorship of his view so it all snowballs and hey presto you've ended up making it 10 times worse.

I'm not saying don't take action, I'm saying be wiser and more creative about it, try to see the bigger picture.

I do stand by my view however that internet jibes do not bother me in the slightest no matter how crazed they are as there is no way to measure the authenticity, credibility or level of influence of the poster involved, quite apart from the fact that the reality is that extreme opinion will be encountered everywhere and no matter how horrendous it seems to you it has a right to exist. Denying the holocaust is the only example I can think of that can get you into legal trouble, and that in only a few countries.

So I do empathise that you can be offended by this stuff, but the fact is there's not a hell of a lot you can do except perhaps give some of the vitriol back (in this case unfortunately the ladies are vastly outnumbered). Some battles are unwinnable so you gotta fight smart and choose the battles that you can win and most importantly fight the battles that are worth fighting.

Wibbs

donfers wrote: »

you are misrepresenting my argument and putting words in my mouth but let me boil down my analysis


if some stranger you are never likely to meet (man or woman) makes a comment on an internet forum that is outrageously sexist then my opinion is that you shouldn't let it bother you too much (of course with the ratio of men to women on online forums you will see mroe sexism directed towards women there)....however if for example you learn that a male work colleague at work (who is doing the same job as you to roughly the same ability and with roughly the same experience) is earning more than you then take the appropriate action to investigate why the pay disparity exists, contact human resources department, equality organisations, a lawyer, whatever it takes to determine why the man is receiving more, be active and thorough and forceful in searching for the truth...rather than for example bitching about it to your friends/family, resenting the male colleague (who has no control over your pay) and generally being a pain in the arse at work but fearing for your job security and not wanting to rock the boat so limiting your resistence to a passive aggressive demeanour at work or an online thread or photoshop job.....now I realise almost everyone here will claim that they would take the active counter-measures and I applaud that but unfortunately, at least in my experience, there are many who choose to complain about something than actually do anything about the complaint - the key point of course where we differ is what is worthy of complaint, many here say the sexist comments on AH are worthy of complaint but I agree with Scanlas on this that there's not a lot you can do about how someone else chooses to value you, it is their mind, their opinion and their judgement.

Ultimately they have the right to percieve how they wish, they don't have the right though to infringe on any of you legal rights however such as the right to equal pay, the vote, to be safe, to do whatever job you prefer, to sleep with whoever you want etc etc....and when you suspect that is happening then by all means unleash hell.

It's not nice when people make judgements on us that we don't like or we don't think is fair, hopefully most of us have supportive families and good friends that won't indulge in same, but to hold every random stranger on the net to account for comments you find distasteful will always ultimately prove a fruitless exercise, however if it makes you feel better go ahead, my point is that I think energies could be better invested in fighting bigger and more meaningful battles

There is a fair bit of all sorts of correct in your post. Indeed that same post could be aimed at a helluva lot of men in the workplace too. The "weak" quiet ones. Hell you could say similar of 90+% of people. The vast majority of people keep their head down, don't make a fuss and just let stuff slide. IMHO the difference is if you're a woman that expectation to do so is a lot higher, has more barriers built in and that is cut through society like words in a stick of rock. From other women too BTW. IMHO "ohhh don't make a fuss" is the default position of the majority of people with a side order of "oohh she/he is making a fuss. Hope they get somewhere, but I'll say nada to help". At the risk of Godwining the thread, trust me on this, if some day "they" come for you, do not rely on the average person to hide you in the attic. Nada against same. Like I said most just want to keep their heads down or walk on by untroubled by stuff, beyond a little under the breath prayer of "Oh I hope theyre alright/Thank god/FSM it's not me". Yep you guessed it. I'm cynical.

I am posting too much on this thread at the mo so I'll bow out for now (if I get loads of thanks for this last comment I'll cry!)

Jaysus after reading that Hed I had to thank your post. Almost a given dammit!

Ickle Magoo

donfers wrote: »

So I do empathise that you can be offended by this stuff, but the fact is there's not a hell of a lot you can do except perhaps give some of the virtiol back (in this case unfortunately the ladies are vastly outnumbered). Some battles are unwinnable so you gotta fight smart and choose the battles that you can win and most importantly the battles that are worth fighting.

I see no reason to stop fighting for the right to join in a conversation on a forum without some idiot making reference to my gender, my body, or what they'd like to do with it - if that means bans or infractions then I don't have an issue with that, if it happens often enough a precedence is set - much like racism and vitriolic homophobia.

I appreciate some posters would prefer everyone kept quiet and we could all proceed with the hilarious status quo impinged and guilt free but I don't think that bolted horse is going to be stabled again, perhaps arguing against those complaining about sexism & misogyny is a battle you can't win & you'd be better off being smart & picking battles worth fighting for?

Wibbs

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

Hey, thanks but you entirely missed the point of my post. I won't even bother addressing your patronising last two lines.

At the risk of being twatty and it's not meant that way DZ, I think his last two lines aren't so wrong. And you can take it to the bank(and StT would agree) I'm not exactly one of his full on supporters in general.

Dr. Zeus

Wibbs wrote: »

At the risk of being twatty and it's not meant that way DZ, I think his last two lines aren't so wrong. And you can take it to the bank(and StT would agree) I'm not exactly one of his full on supporters in general.

I don't think you're every twatty to be fair. I can't actually remember what the last two lines were now will have to re-read.

Wibbs

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I appreciate some posters would prefer everyone kept quiet and we could all proceed with the hilarious status quo impinge perhaps arguing against those complaining about sexism & misogyny is a battle you can't win & you'd be better off being smart & picking battles worth fighting for?

Naw. I say fight those battles wherever you see them. If someone doesn't get it? So what. If you fight those little battles, someone will. More than you may think and more than who will click the little thanks button too. I think folks forget how much a different take on things can change people just reading about it. I know it has with me on this very site on a couple of points. And as anyone who actually knows me will attest I'm a lot more unreconstructed than most out there think. A mate of mine who is only a lurker on the site when she found out I was a tLL and PI mod(back in the day) laughed and said "oh that will do you of all people good". And she was right. So keep sticking that head above the parapet. Like Liah did in FB. The Japanese have a saying; "the nail that sticks out will be hammered down". Grand, but if enough nails stick up the same hammer will crack.

Wibbs

Dr. Zeus wrote: »

I don't think you're every twatty to be fair. I can't actually remember what the last two lines were now will have to re-read.

I can barely recall my last post, but my excuse is age and wear on the brain.

K-9

southsiderosie wrote: »

And this is exactly why the level of misogyny in online forums is disturbing; I can't help but think that it legitimizes it and eventually it spills over into real life.

I'm in my early 30s, and I keep reading about these insanely sexist college parties, contests, etc, and it just seems so completely foreign to my experience in college just over a decade ago. And I can't help feel that the normalization of porn and sexist internet discourse contributes to that.

The Sex Education Show - 4oD - Channel 4

Can't view it myself, maybe it is outside the UK or something?

Basically, they asked 15/16 year olds their attitudes on sex and porn.

What stood out for me was "Where can men cum?" (Sorry for the TMI)

Face was the most popular answer and the boring old traditional answer didn't register, IIRC!

The girls seemed very reluctant to object.

Desensitisation to porn is worrying enough in adults but when you have 15/16 year olds coming out with this stuff, it has gone past that stage. Unfortunately censorship on the internet isn't taken seriously. It is akin to libertarianism in Politics!

Nevyn

Wibbs wrote: »

Naw. I say fight those battles wherever you see them. If someone doesn't get it? So what. If you fight those little battles, someone will. More than you may think and more than who will click the little thanks button too. I think folks forget how much a different take on things can change people just reading about it. I know it has with me on this very site on a couple of points. And as anyone who actually knows me will attest I'm a lot more unreconstructed than most out there think. A mate of mine who is only a lurker on the site when she found out I was a tLL and PI mod(back in the day) laughed and said "oh that will do you of all people good". And she was right. So keep sticking that head above the parapet. Like Liah did in FB. The Japanese have a saying; "the nail that sticks out will be hammered down". Grand, but if enough nails stick up the same hammer will crack.

The thing is it can get fierce fúcking lonely doing at one stage a few years back I reported so many posts in a certain forum for being sexist and misogynist that it got to the stage were they were dismissed and that fact it was me reporting them was thrown back in my face, that if any other poster male or female had of reported it I was told by the cat mod at the time they would have taken it more seriously as it was me, after all I was just the humourless man hating feminazi who takes that seriously.

I was the one who had something wrong with me that I had a problem with the posts.

The casual sexism has gotten worse over the last two years as the number of people on boards has grown and grown and it's become mainstream and not just people in college, in IT/coders and gamers. At least back then the majority of get back in the kitchen jokes were tongue in cheek and my stock reply used to be, "I like being in the kitchen it's were the knives are",
but it's not being used in an ironic way any more.

It's scary just how misogynistic the average bloke in his 20s is these days.

donfers

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I see no reason to stop fighting for the right to join in a conversation on a forum without some idiot making reference to my gender, my body, or what they'd like to do with it - if that means bans or infractions then I don't have an issue with that, if it happens often enough a precedence is set - much like racism and vitriolic homophobia.

I appreciate some posters would prefer everyone kept quiet and we could all proceed with the hilarious status quo impinged and guilt free but I don't think that bolted horse is going to be stabled again, perhaps arguing against those complaining about sexism & misogyny is a battle you can't win & you'd be better off being smart & picking battles worth fighting for?

I don't see this as a battle - that you do speaks volumes

I am not arguing against those complaining about sexism, I am considering how best to do it and when it is worth doing it - that you misrepresent my view is not surprising to me, there have been an awful lot of strawmen in this thread and too many post hoc fallacies for my liking which are rather tiresome to highlight let alone argue against (as why would one argue against something one hasn't said)

However you'll be glad to know that I don't feel persecuted, victimised, offended or in any way maltreated by the simple fact that mine is not the popular view here;)

oh and there is no real precedent when it comes to determining where the offensive line is drawn so good luck with that

I prefer to let the idiots speak for themselves and be exposed, they have that right

Ickle Magoo

Battle was your word if you'll remember donfers, just offering your own advice back to you. I have never referred to this discussion nor any of the points raised as a battle - I see it as a challenge to the status quo that is long overdue. Most, if not all, of the defence of that status-quo have been piss weak and feeble tbh - which I would suggest speaks equal volumes. There is no genuine reason for not embracing positive change that limits the play-ground tactics and frankly tediously juvenile gender-based repartee of certain quarters.

I disagree that there is no precedent; if a group of posters were consistently racist or homophobic using every available opportunity to use a persons race or sexuality as a stick to beat them with, they wouldn't last long. Not so long ago it was open day on celebrities, not so today. Boards evolves and the rules that govern it along with the attitudes of those contributing evolve with it, often as a result of that and sometimes even antecedently. I don't see that changing any time soon - especially not just to preserve the last bastion of idiocy when it comes to anti-women and sexist sentiment. :cool:

donfers

happy crusading!

if you believe in all that, then feel free, it's a perfectly valid viewpoint to uphold, I just happen to disagree with almost all of it, I'm sure you and the like-minded gang here can learn to live with that


and on that note I respectfully bow out as I really have nothing more to say on the point and have no appetite to constantly deal with the dreaded strawpersons (if you prefer)

Ickle Magoo

Happy epoch, you mean

G'night.

Chinafoot

Oh I do so love the old "You're wrong but I can't be bothered telling you why because it's so beneath me". :rolleyes:

Ickle Magoo

Or the ninja edit to get one last dig in before throwing the toys out... :pac:

pickarooney

Deleted User wrote: »

As long as you're going to have certain levels of anonymity on the internet, then there will be those "keyboard warriors". To give an example; I use internet dating and some of the women I talk to are absolutely amazed at the messages they receive - i.e. you have nice tits, want to have sex? etc. etc.

Rather than draw some perverse conclusion about X, Y or Z in cases like this you have to consider that
a) some people operate of a basic, animal, honest basis such as this
b) some people have no concept of social skills

K-9

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Or the ninja edit to get one last dig in before throwing the toys out... :pac:

11 minutes is hardly Ninja!

Ickle Magoo

K-9 wrote: »

11 minutes is hardly Ninja!

:eek: Yeah you're right, it said one thing when I posted and in the 30secs it took me to answer the reply had changed, I just assumed there wouldn't have been a large gap between posting and feeling the need to add in a departing dig. Serves me right for being so presumptuous.

K-9

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

:eek: Yeah you're right, it said one thing when I posted and in the 30secs it took me to answer the reply had changed, I just assumed there wouldn't have been a large gap between posting and feeling the need to add in a departing dig. Serves me right for being so presumptuous.

In fairness, he may have a reason for editing, have edited later myself, but not to change the substantive point, add a link or something like that.

Ickle Magoo

Oh me too but the only bit that changed was to add in

and have no appetite to constantly deal with the dreaded strawpersons (if you prefer)

Baring in mind the distinct lack of strawmen on this thread, I think it just an excuse to crowbar in some sophistry...

K-9

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Oh me too but the only bit that changed was to add in



Baring in mind the distinct lack of strawmen on this thread, I think it just an excuse to crowbar in some sophistry...

Strawmen are in the eye of the beholder and yep, I've used the straw men point before!

It carries far more weight if examples are provided!

dfx-

Dudess wrote: »

But yes, at times the lack of "sisterhood" can be really infuriating.

And just as damaging, I would think

Dudess wrote: »

Ah... I heard all about those guys this weekend - still buzzin'? :D

Ohhhhh yes :cool:

Dudess

Chinafoot wrote: »

Oh I do so love the old "You're wrong but I can't be bothered telling you why because it's so beneath me". :rolleyes:

Yup... When all else fails, resort to passive-aggressiveness.

Wibbs

pickarooney wrote: »

a) some people operate of a basic, animal, honest basis such as this

Very true, but it's funny how there are a lot less of them in everyday life when compared to the interweb.

b) some people have no concept of social skills

This I would agree with and you could argue the internet demographic in the past contained many more of them. That's changing though. In online dating maybe it's not so much?

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

Rather than draw some perverse conclusion about X, Y or Z in cases like this you have to consider that
a) some people operate of a basic, animal, honest basis such as this
b) some people have no concept of social skills

It's also very easy to let the gatekeeper of untoward thoughts go on holiday as there are no consequences for what you say. This may not be a bad thing really as at least it's out there. We all know in this day and age repression doesn't work and you have to hang it somewhere.

To start with it's text divorced from body and voice so you are missing about 70% of the information. It takes a skilled writer who has time to layer with tone to minimize the possibilities for miscommunication. The slightest glib remark can become amplified to Hiroshima proportions. The pace at which internet communications operate inhibits the will to reflect. To add to that, there is no real sense of the other's person or the effect words can have on their inner realities so it becomes all too easy.

Catari Jaguar

Johro wrote: »

Don't mods talk to other mods on boards? You'd think one of them would post a warning to say that blatant sexist remarks will result in a ban. It would have to be be pretty unequivocal though.. There's a problem when some posts are regarded by some as tongue in cheek humorous and others hurtful and offensive. If there are repeat offenders they should just be banned, no question about it.

In *certain fora* if it's "a joke" it's not sexist. If one girl reports a post yet the 80 other viewers don't (and they won't becuse it's not aimed at men so they'll think it's hilarious) then the mod will ignore it as the girl is obvioulsy beng touchy and just because she doesn't like the joke doesn't mean it's out of line. Some forums have boundaries that are difficult to get your head around... It's the "If you don't like it - tough. Don't read it" mentality of teh interwebs.

Johro

cherub rock wrote: »

In *certain fora* if it's "a joke" it's not sexist. If one girl reports a post yet the 80 other viewers don't (and they won't becuse it's not aimed at men so they'll think it's hilarious) then the mod will ignore it as the girl is obvioulsy beng touchy and just because she doesn't like the joke doesn't mean it's out of line. Some forums have boundaries that are difficult to get your head around... It's the "If you don't like it - tough. Don't read it" mentality of teh interwebs.

True.. I see posts myself that are outrageously generalising, racist, sexist, anti-social rants that get thirty-odd thanks and :D:D's and it does make ya wonder about the real feeling out there, I hope they're not that representative of general opinion but sometimes it sure looks like that. Can be a bit depressing when you think these are mostly young guys.
You generally know when it's a joke or not by who posted it.
I did see some posters getting a little embarrassed when a particularly nasty post got critical replies and try to limit the damage by saying 'jeez it was only a joke' when it obviously wasn't. :rolleyes:
I guess the only thing to do is, if you don't like a post, say so.
You might not always get the support but it feels worse to ignore it.

FTGFOP

donfers wrote: »

Let's assume that 10 people press the report button because a guy in AH [for a sexist post]. The poster is infracted or warned or banned for a while. We assume the message is that this sort of stuff is unacceptable.

But the reality is that this message is only understood by those already aware that such a comment is unacceptable.* For those who do have a fondness for sexist remarks the backlash is a validation of their act, it also encourages others to follow suit and finally emboldens the like-minded to support their "wronged" comrade, they may not go along with his original comment, but they do go against the censorship of his view so it all snowballs and hey presto you've ended up making it 10 times worse.

I don't get your reasoning. Reporting a post for sexism is pointless? I'm not sure what a poster banned/told off for sexist posts gets out of it. But the message to them and their audience is "sexist posts aren't welcome here". (I'm assuming you're talking about Boards).

As for your general point of picking battles, I don't think it applies to reporting posts, it takes seconds? Where's the battle?

*What does that even mean?

The Agogo

When the automobile first came out, any idiot could buy it and drive it.

These days you need lessons and graded test to get a licence for it.

Maybe we're just at that early stage with the internet? Where people can say and do what they like.