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Discussions about sexism on the internet...

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    #182
    TheReverend
    Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TheReverend


    tits or gtfo


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    #183
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    TheReverend wrote: »
    tits or gtfo

    Banned, 7 days.


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    #184
    billjch
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭billjch


    7 day ban, that's harsh, so much for opinions and freedom of speech!


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    #185
    Xiney
    Registered Users Posts: 8,085 ✭✭✭Xiney


    billjch wrote: »
    7 day ban, that's harsh, so much for opinions and freedom of speech!

    1) NOT the forum to make a comment like the one posted above
    2) Nowhere on boards is it acceptable to question a moderator action on thread. First step is to pm the mod.


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    #186
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    I disagree that using the "it happens to men too" to dismiss a point is somehow not valid. Take for example the argument about equal pay, someone posts a survey where some men are getting paid more then women in the same position. Now when this is first posted most will jump on it as clearly being proof of sexism and that the reason the woman was paid less was because of her gender. Then after some more reading of the survey I point out that it also shows examples of women being paid more than men in the same position, to me that completely invalidates the claim that the pay difference was down to gender and is therefore a perfectly valid argument to make.

    The fact it gets made frequently and is therefore tiresome doesn't suggest to me it's not valid and the idea of you moderating it seems like crippling a valid argument to gain favour with a particular side.


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    #187
    billjch
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭billjch


    this is however the place to post opinions Xiney! or would you disagree?


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    #188
    Silverfish
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Silverfish


    billjch wrote: »
    this is however the place to post opinions Xiney! or would you disagree?

    'Tits or gtfo' is not an opinion, it's an order.

    It's also expressly forbidden by the charter.

    There is also no free speech on a privately owned website.

    Now, please read the charter of this forum before posting here again, if your only contribution is to argue moderation.


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    #189
    billjch
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭billjch


    "There is also no free speech on a privately owned website." so whats the point of allowing people to post?


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    #190
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    The fact it gets made frequently and is therefore tiresome doesn't suggest to me it's not valid and the idea of you moderating it seems like crippling a valid argument to gain favour with a particular side.
    Yep and I make no bones about it. Just like if I was modding the Atheist forum and theists were coming up with the same arguments time and time again to the same end and vice versa. Like I say, debate is fine and indeed in your example I see no issue, but when every single thread gets the same kinda hackneyed response, a response more along the lines of "so there" rather than "discuss" I really don't see how it's fitting into what is after all the Ladies lounge. Just as I wouldn't be interested in someone posting in one of the religious forums, "ah but God doesn't exist you know" on every point of theological debate.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #191
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Anyone heard this one?
    What did the google coder say to the twitter engineer at ApacheCon?
    No, but he stuck his hand down her underwear anyway.

    This story broke over a lot of sites and many of the comments from men were sexist, victum blaming and frankly outragous. For me it reall highlighted how much of the internet is men esp young men % wise and how scarey thier attitudes are.

    Story here http://gawker.com/5683354/


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    #192
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    billjch wrote: »
    "There is also no free speech on a privately owned website." so whats the point of allowing people to post?
    I would suggest you try the feedback forum under Sys if you want to have this debate.

    But there is no free speech in the American sense on this forum nor website, indeed there isn't in this country. Too many US movies have given us all the wrong impression on that score. In any case from a Philisophical point of view so called "free speech" is not the be all and end all. What usually happens is 4Chan or Youtube. The long standing European concept of evolved justice and judgement, rather than absolutism is a far better bet IMHO. The Yanks got too caught up iin the French revolutionary thinking in many ways(though implemented it better in many ways too). IE we work more on the "don't be a dick" rule and like art, we may not know much but we know when we see it. Same can be applied to the "dick" rule.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #193
    billjch
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭billjch


    sorry bout this but (Discussions about sexism on the internet, "There is also no free speech on a privately owned website.") whats wrong with this picture???


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    #194
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    billjch wrote: »
    sorry bout this but (Discussions about sexism on the internet, "There is also no free speech on a privately owned website.") whats wrong with this picture???
    The fact that you're continuing to argue this point after you've already been warned.


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    #195
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yep and I make no bones about it. Just like if I was modding the Atheist forum and theists were coming up with the same arguments time and time again to the same end and vice versa. Like I say, debate is fine and indeed in your example I see no issue, but when every single thread gets the same kinda hackneyed response, a response more along the lines of "so there" rather than "discuss" I really don't see how it's fitting into what is after all the Ladies lounge. Just as I wouldn't be interested in someone posting in one of the religious forums, "ah but God doesn't exist you know" on every point of theological debate.

    Your analogy doesn't really fit well tbh. If someone's only proof that something was sexist is because it happened to a woman and not a man by showing a case of the same thing happening to man you are showing up a fault in her logic.

    You could also say that crying sexism over every little discrepancy is tiring so why isn't that worthy of being cracked down on.


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    #196
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I disagree that using the "it happens to men too" to dismiss a point is somehow not valid. Take for example the argument about equal pay, someone posts a survey where some men are getting paid more then women in the same position. Now when this is first posted most will jump on it as clearly being proof of sexism and that the reason the woman was paid less was because of her gender. Then after some more reading of the survey I point out that it also shows examples of women being paid more than men in the same position, to me that completely invalidates the claim that the pay difference was down to gender and is therefore a perfectly valid argument to make.

    The fact it gets made frequently and is therefore tiresome doesn't suggest to me it's not valid and the idea of you moderating it seems like crippling a valid argument to gain favour with a particular side.

    In that example it wouldn't bother me as the point is relevant but say you had a case where a woman posted saying she was annoyed she didn't get promoted and thinks it was down to her gender/age.

    Then a poster comes on and says ''yeah well you get maternity leave and men get nothing''

    or the other side of the coin

    ''Father's rights in family law are a disgrace'' gets a reply of ''yeah well men often desert the mother so...''

    That kind of thing does happen and it is really annoying. The same thing happens in republicanism debates on politics. Essentially off topic whataboutery which has little relevance(if any) to the topic.


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    #197
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    WTF, what mods are tolerating this?? You constantly see threads about anally raping and ejaculating on female posters? really?

    You actually brought this up earlier and I queried you on it because it sounded so mad.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68823700&postcount=128

    You didn't reply.

    I presume you deliberately only emboldened half of my sentence for added effect...so the "constantly" comment could get a bit of added oomph? :confused:

    I don't think it's necessary nor appropriate to highlight specific posts/posters/mod inaction in this thread, or any thread for that matter - if I have an issue of that nature I report the post/thread or take it up with the mod in question. Besides, if you don't accept what is being said by several posters of both genders about some relatively common themes that I'm surprised you haven't copped yourself then linking you to a couple of examples isn't going to suddenly convince you - it's just going to make my in-box fuller and I can do without that. :cool:

    On the plus-side, I've definitely noticed a difference in attitudes/what is deemed acceptable over the past few weeks, perhaps the times they are a-changing after all? :)


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    #198
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Yea ok I see your point and agree with it in those cases. I just don't like how it was phrases in this thread that just because the argument gets used a lot it's somehow not a good argument.

    I feel that by demonising it's bad usage you will also make an easy cop out for when it is used in a valid way by saying something like "oh here we go again the it happens to men too". In much the same way that crying sexisim over small discrepancies leads to "Oh here she goes again crying about sexism" which inhibits the chance of a valid point being heard.


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    #199
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Your analogy doesn't really fit well tbh. If someone's only proof that something was sexist is because it happened to a woman and not a man by showing a case of the same thing happening to man you are showing up a fault in her logic.

    You could also say that crying sexism over every little discrepancy is tiring so why isn't that worthy of being cracked down on.
    Because it's the Ladies lounge. Just as if I was modding Christianity I'm gonna support the Christian more than an Atheist/Hindu/Muslim poster. Its really that simple. And TBH I really don't see the problem with that. For me personally anyway.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #200
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Because it's the Ladies lounge. Just as if I was modding Christianity I'm gonna support the Christian more than an Atheist/Hindu/Muslim poster. Its really that simple. And TBH I really don't see the problem with that. For me personally anyway.

    Well I would say that would be a bad way of modding those forums. You shouldn't judge an argument just because it was aimed at a certain side. I also don't think the role of a moderator is to back up arguments made by it's most frequent users whether they are good arguments or bad ones.

    If there is a discussion on cyclists in the motor forums I don't think the mods should pick a side and try to ban common but valid arguments against motorist their role should be to moderate discussion on both side fairly irrespective of which side they or the majority of their users side with.


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    #201
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Much like your finger-in-the ear approach isn't doing you any favours?

    It's not me that has their fingers in their ears.

    You're the one that won't accept that there is anything negative about Feminism.

    Of course, I'd call that more 'head in the sand' than, 'fingers in the ears'.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Well, by posting the link you appear to be inferring that A) I would care ..

    Well, if you don't care, then why are you reply to my post challenging me on what I said about Feminism - do you expect me just to agree with you or something? :p

    Look, you implied I didn't know what Feminism was, I do - that thread shows I it, read it or don't read -choice is yours.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    B) would want to read 14 pages to find out something about you.

    LOL .. how would that thread be about me?? :p

    I am not Kevin Myers you know, despite the rumours.

    Funny how we have all these views about how After Hours makes women feel "uneasy", and that they don't feel "welcome" there etc etc. Yet, here I come to the Ladies Lounge and after just a few posts, a regular replies to me and tells me that they "don't care" what I have to say. Lovely welcome, I mean, I was expecting the red carpet or anything, but a Beer and comfortable chair wouldn't have been nice.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    So the constant, get your tits out/I'd cum on ...../I'm going to give it you up the arse/only good for cooking/shrew-like/emotionally unstable/etc, etc is all fun and games ..

    Most of that stuff is said to men also, apart from the "tits out" one, but then we have the cawk jokes, accusations of just being bitter if we have complaints about women being rude to men in social settings, misogynist if we say anything about Feminism etc etc etc
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    .. but if anyone lol's ach yer all just child molesters/potential rapists/crap fathers ..

    Unbelievable.

    Are you seriously trying to compare the above comments with saying all men are child molesters, crap fathers and rapists!?!?!

    The only comparable to calling all men child molesters and rapists, is calling all women child molesters and rapists.


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    #202
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    If you are going to deliberately drop parts of my posts so you can feign outrage at the rest, there is little point in attempting to have rational discourse with you.


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    #203
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    If you are going to deliberately drop parts of my posts so you can feign outrage at the rest, there is little point in attempting to have rational discourse with you.

    Mabe he only had a problem with some of your post?


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    #204
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Well I would say that would be a bad way of modding those forums. You shouldn't judge an argument just because it was aimed at a certain side. I also don't think the role of a moderator is to back up arguments made by it's most frequent users whether they are good arguments or bad ones.

    If there is a discussion on cyclists in the motor forums I don't think the mods should pick a side and try to ban common but valid arguments against motorist their role should be to moderate discussion on both side fairly irrespective of which side they or the majority of their users side with.
    Fine in general forums, in "special interest" forums, I don't agree(plus it depends where the debate is coming from). Personally as far as Im concerned this is (sadly) a "special interest" forum. It's for a specific group. I don't give a toss whether I agree with a poster from that group or not, but I do give a toss about making this a place where that group can feel happy posting without having to defend everything they say. So my analogy of theists having to defend themselves on every hands turn in AH(which is fine IMH), while feeling safe to express themselves in their theist forum makes sense to me.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #205
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Mabe he only had a problem with some of your post?

    The bit that explained the part he then went on to feign outrage at? It's a becoming a boring tactic at this stage tbh...the old deflect from the actual issue dog with a bone routine.


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    #206
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I presume you deliberately only emboldened half of my sentence for added effect...so the "constantly" comment could get a bit of added oomph? :confused:

    no, I honestly thought your use of ''constant'' was signficant and I wanted you to elaborate on it because I genuinely don't think anal rape and ejaculation commments are constantly happening in response to female posters on boards. You're aware I was referring to boards specifically because I mentioned moderators in both posts(i actually haven't seen either comment myself)
    I don't think it's necessary nor appropriate to highlight specific posts/posters/mod inaction in this thread, or any thread for that matter - if I have an issue of that nature I report the post/thread or take it up with the mod in question.

    That's sidestepping the issue. I simply asked you to elaborate on the claim of constant anal sex/ejaculation responses as I read boards far too much and I haven't come across them, let alone noticed their constant use.

    Besides, if you don't accept what is being said by several posters of both genders about some relatively common themes that I'm surprised you haven't copped yourself then linking you to a couple of examples isn't going to suddenly convince you - it's just going to make my in-box fuller and I can do without that. :cool:

    Lets not fall out over this. Claiming anal rape and ejaculation jokes are constant responses to female posters is a big claim to make. If I thought that I'd be the first person complaining on feedback. Posters saying that to me are not several in number. I think it was reasonable to ask for further clarification.


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    #207
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I would agree with SF to a large extent and it's hardly something that's gonna be aimed at me, but I do see similar enough trajectories on interweb threads. It's a lot less extreme on this site compared to others to be fair. Where it can get bloody stupid. There can often be a fundamental if subtle difference on threads between male and female responses(and methods of debate. There is dismissiveness on both sides all too often and an inability to get the vibe of the other.

    I would say though that one meme, the "but men suffer too you know" response is getting a bit tired for me at this stage. Damn near every thread in this forum where women come on and discuss issue "A" from a woman's point of view, you can lay a decent wedge of hard earned down that some bloke will start bleating(usually more than once) about how "it's not just women you know?". That would be fine and dandy if it was adding to the debate, rather than using that notion as a way to dismiss the original point.

    first paragraph is fair enough

    second, i'd have to question. It depends on the point being made, for example often the equal pay issue is trotted out and the stats are presented in such a way that suggest women are being unfairly paid IN COMPARISON WITH MEN, if someone argues that the stats are skewed in order to present a picture of the underpaid women (that is usually in the interests of whatever special interests group is presenting the stats) then it's entirely valid to make the comparison with men's pay and delve deeper into the so-called imbalance in pay between the genders. However if someone tries to counter the female pay issue with a comment about how raw a deal men get in the family courts then I'd agree with you....however I don't think that happens to anywhere near the level the complainers here suggest


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    #208
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Fine in general forums, in "special interest" forums, I don't agree(plus it depends where the debate is coming from). Personally as far as Im concerned this is (sadly) a "special interest" forum. It's for a specific group. I don't give a toss whether I agree with a poster from that group or not, but I do give a toss about making this a place where that group can feel happy posting without having to defend everything they say. So my analogy of theists having to defend themselves on every hands turn in AH(which is fine IMH), while feeling safe to express themselves in their theist forum makes sense to me.

    Well my opinion is in doing that you hamper discussion which would explain why the theist forums are so repetitive and why this forum has very little varied discussion. Basically you are saying that having opinions which differ from the majority is frowned upon. Unless you're opinions are easily countered in which case it's more acceptable.


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    #209
    OutlawPete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,689 ✭✭✭✭OutlawPete


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    If you are going to deliberately drop parts of my posts so you can feign outrage at the rest, there is little point in attempting to have rational discourse with you.

    I just went and checked and only two lines were left out of your post and have ZERO effect on the context of what you said, or my reply - but seen as Thaedydal 'thanked' your post when you complained about those two lines not being present, I have now added them to my reply, here you go Ickle:



    --


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Much like your finger-in-the ear approach isn't doing you any favours?

    It's not me that has their fingers in their ears.

    You're the one that won't accept that there is anything negative about Feminism.

    Of course, I'd call that more 'head in the sand' than, 'fingers in the ears'.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    In what way comparable? If you mean as an ignorant generalisation taking a negative behaviour or trait exhibited by a minority and using it to decry a whole gender then it's comparable to a lot of things that are said about women.

    Well, by posting the link you appear to be inferring that A) I would care ..

    Well, if you don't care, then why are you reply to my post challenging me on what I said about Feminism - do you expect me just to agree with you or something? tongue.gif

    Look, you implied I didn't know what Feminism was, I do - that thread shows I it, read it or don't read -choice is yours.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    B) would want to read 14 pages to find out something about you.

    LOL .. how would that thread be about me?? tongue.gif

    I am not Kevin Myers you know, despite the rumours.

    Funny how we have all these views about how After Hours makes women feel "uneasy", and that they don't feel "welcome" there etc etc. Yet, here I come to the Ladies Lounge and after just a few posts, a regular replies to me and tells me that they "don't care" what I have to say. Lovely welcome, I mean, I was expecting the red carpet or anything, but a Beer and comfortable chair wouldn't have been nice.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    So the constant, get your tits out/I'd cum on ...../I'm going to give it you up the arse/only good for cooking/shrew-like/emotionally unstable/etc, etc is all fun and games ..

    Most of that stuff is said to men also, apart from the "tits out" one, but then we have the cawk jokes, accusations of just being bitter if we have complaints about women being rude to men in social settings, misogynist if we say anything about Feminism etc etc etc
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    but if anyone lol's ach yer all just child molesters/potential rapists/crap fathers or any other negative gender related stereo-type of the worst kind for men then it's suddenly serious stuff? I think I'm starting to understand how this works..

    Unbelievable.

    Are you seriously trying to compare the above comments with saying all men are child molesters, crap fathers and rapists!?!?!

    The only comparable to calling all men child molesters and rapists, is calling all women child molesters and rapists.


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    #210
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    no, I honestly thought your use of ''constant'' was signficant and I wanted you to elaborate on it because I genuinely don't think anal rape and ejaculation commments are constantly happening in response to female posters on boards. You're aware I was referring to boards specifically because I mentioned moderators in both posts(i actually haven't seen either comment myself)

    What I actually said was;
    Ickle Magoo wrote:
    the constant, get your tits out/I'd cum on ...../I'm going to give it you up the @rse/only good for cooking/shrew-like/emotionally unstable/etc, etc

    The constant is significant in getting across that these are the types of comments that I've borne witness to, I'm not sure why you are trying to suggest I'm claiming that only two of those specific statements are constant...or that they alone are significant. :confused:
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    That's sidestepping the issue. I simply asked you to elaborate on the claim of constant anal sex/ejaculation responses as I read boards far too much and I haven't come across them, let alone noticed their constant use.

    Other than naming names, how do you expect me to elaborate? Again, this fixation with two of the six examples given. Are you specifically arguing them for a reason, safer ground perhaps? I've had all the examples I gave aimed specifically at me, I've seen them aimed at other posters in one form or another - it isn't a rare occurrence & is part of a much more common, wider theme, hence, constant etc, etc...
    Ickle Magoo wrote:
    Lets not fall out over this. Claiming anal rape and ejaculation jokes are constant responses to female posters is a big claim to make. If I thought that I'd be the first person complaining on feedback. Posters saying that to me are not several in number. I think it was reasonable to ask for further clarification.

    Who's falling out? Surely we have to be friends to fall out? :P (I joke)

    I think the same points have already been covered adequately above...


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    #211
    donfers
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭donfers


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I presume you deliberately only emboldened half of my sentence for added effect...so the "constantly" comment could get a bit of added oomph? :confused:

    I don't think it's necessary nor appropriate to highlight specific posts/posters/mod inaction in this thread, or any thread for that matter - if I have an issue of that nature I report the post/thread or take it up with the mod in question. Besides, if you don't accept what is being said by several posters of both genders about some relatively common themes that I'm surprised you haven't copped yourself then linking you to a couple of examples isn't going to suddenly convince you - it's just going to make my in-box fuller and I can do without that. :cool:

    On the plus-side, I've definitely noticed a difference in attitudes/what is deemed acceptable over the past few weeks, perhaps the times they are a-changing after all? :)

    you claimed that you constantly see threads about anally raping and ejaculating on female posters?

    That is just an outright lie - your arguments lose credibility very fast if you imbue them with utter garbage I'm afraid and then you dodge the request to provide evidence of same.

    I am always wary of any forums where I see the same 10-12 posters thanking each others posts, it creates a kind of siege mentality that is rarely conducive to well-reasoned arguments. The "you go girl" mentality is fine and dandy only if the encouragement is based on something more than the fact the poster is female and she happens to be disagreeing with a male. There are many fine posters and posts in this forum but a few go way over the top and then there is the backlash with feminazi labels etc and then that further entrenches, radicalises and boldens the ladies in question and the result is the argument becomes more and more nasty and less and less rational, reasonable and fair. To be honest I'm not sure this is the right forum for THE DEBATE of gender issues anymore as this forum is all about discussing things from a female point of view (feeling "safe"- a notion I dispute but it's not my forum) and thus there will no real debate as the vast majority of the most prominent posters here ( as far as I can see) just constantly recycle the same opinions and thank each others posts. I don't really view that as debate, it's politicking or even propoganda. Therefore the forum has to decide if it wishes to tolerate the counterview to some of its claims from males/females and have the debate or to just confine the political stuff to one thread where those concerned can all agree on how sexist/misogynistic/chauvinist x, y or z is.

    At the moment it seems there is a lot of hostility here that the debate is actually being allowed to take place so I'd suggest the forum members decide if they are ok with this.


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