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Gardai prepare plan for Queen's arrival

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    #242
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    gurramok wrote: »
    No it wouldn't have stopped the Troubles. It would have saved many lives by denouncing killing in her name by Loyalists who follow her.

    I could be wrong but I think her saying something like that would be an infringement on the constitutional monarchy status of the UK. Don't know for sure.

    Though I am quite sure her denouncing the killings would not have reduced loyalist violence. They were mostly done as an objection to reunifying with the 26 and as a reaction to republican attacks rather than killing in the Queens name.

    Had Mrs Windsor denounced them they would have just declared themselves loyal to the British people and state and defended their tactics as a means to an end.


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    #243
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    gurramok wrote: »
    No it wouldn't have stopped the Troubles. It would have saved many lives by denouncing killing in her name by Loyalists who follow her.

    Plenty of people in Ireland denounced the killings done in their name and yet it made no difference.


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    #244
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I could be wrong but I think her saying something like that would be an infringement on the constitutional monarchy status of the UK. Don't know for sure.

    Though I am quite sure her denouncing the killings would not have reduced loyalist violence. They were mostly done as an objection to reunifying with the 26 and as a reaction to republican attacks rather than killing in the Queens name.

    Had Mrs Windsor denounced them they would have just declared themselves loyal to the British people and state and defended their tactics as a means to an end.

    They are loyal not to the British Govt but to the monarchy.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Plenty of people in Ireland denounced the killings done in their name and yet it made no difference.

    It did make a difference. The bad publicity from the leaders helped reduce their following.


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    #245
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Just because something is planned doesn't mean that it's not an atrocity.

    Two examples : September 11th & the Invasion of Iraq.

    Indeed.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #246
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    gurramok wrote: »
    They are loyal not to the British Govt but to the monarchy.

    Maybe in theory/by definition but in practice loyalists were infinitely more concerned about leaving the UK and entering a united Ireland than being loyal to the monarchy.

    It did make a difference. The bad publicity from the leaders helped reduce their following.

    Impossible to quantify if that made a measurable reduction in violence. Look at the wording of the green book they considered themselves and Sinn Fein to be the legitimate governmen of the nation. I can't see what political leaders in an artificial state had to say about them having any great influence


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    #247
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    No it wouldn't have stopped the Troubles. It would have saved many lives by denouncing killing in her name by Loyalists who follow her.

    I honestly don't think the scum who incited the violences would have cared either way what she said.

    She's being used as a scapegoat now imo.

    It was our own people who caused the violence not the Queen.


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    #248
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Too lazy to read 17 pages, but I'm pretty sure I can't be the only one to this this may not be the greatest idea.

    To quote Star Wars, I have a bad feeling about this.


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    #249
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I honestly don't think the scum who incited the violences would have cared either way what she said.

    She's being used as a scapegoat now imo.

    It was our own people who caused the violence not the Queen.

    Why on earth would monarchists don't give a sh1t what their monarch says?:confused:

    They worship her just like Al-Qaeda worship God.


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    #250
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why on earth would monarchists don't give a sh1t what their monarch says?:confused:

    They worship her just like Al-Qaeda worship God.

    They were Loyalists and Unionists not Monarchists. They were more interested in the country being part of England than swearing loyalty to the Queen.

    And I hope you aren't comparing the Queen to Al-Qaeda.....people who drove two planes into the twin towers and killed 100s of thousands.

    If you don't want her to visit fine but at least give us valid reasons instead of going on about a part of history that is long since over and from which most of us have moved on.


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    #251
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why on earth would monarchists don't give a sh1t what their monarch says?:confused:

    They worship her just like Al-Qaeda worship God.

    errr, I think you are going a bit OTT now.

    No one worships HRH.


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    #252
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    They were Loyalists and Unionists not Monarchists. They were more interested in the country physically being part of England than swearing loyalty to the Queen.

    Parliament set the monarchy up as a figure head of Britain. In the UK you don't pledge loyalty to a flag as you do in the US, or the State as in the UK, but to the Monarch. They are though, all pretty much the same thing.

    If the British Monarch disappeared tomorrow, they loyalists would still be loyalists, they would just have to follow a different figurehead.


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    #253
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Parliament set the monarchy up as a figure head of Britain. In the UK you don't pledge loyalty to a flag as you do in the US, or the State as in the UK, but to the Monarch. They are though, all pretty much the same thing.

    If the British Monarch disappeared tomorrow, they loyalists would still be loyalists, they would just have to follow a different figurehead.

    Fair enough my mistake. I'd still imagine honouring the Queen was fairly low on their agenda though.


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    #254
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    They were Loyalists and Unionists not Monarchists. They were more interested in the country being part of England than swearing loyalty to the Queen.

    And I hope you aren't comparing the Queen to Al-Qaeda.....people who drove two planes into the twin towers and killed 100s of thousands.

    If you don't want her to visit fine but at least give us valid reasons instead of going on about a part of history that is long since over and from which most of us have moved on.

    Can you read my posts properly please? Thats the 2nd time you pick up something wrong.

    Its a comparison of Al-Qaeda to Loyalists gangs, both are fanatical followers of a figurehead, one been God and the other been the Monarch with a good bit of god thrown in(GSTQ).

    A low key visit to the Presidents mansion with a renunciation of violence by her followers is fine, not a parade down the main street, no fecking way due to reasons already outlined.


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    #255
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    errr, I think you are going a bit OTT now.

    No one worships HRH.

    This is true of the Queen, but not of the Duke of Edinburgh who is in fact worshipped by a tribe in Vanuatu.


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    #256
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Fair enough my mistake. I'd still imagine honouring the Queen was fairly low on their agenda though.

    yeah, it is. for "The Queen" read "Great Britain".

    It is just patriotism, that's all.
    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    This is true of the Queen, but not of the Duke of Edinburgh who is in fact worshipped by a tribe in Vanuatu.

    And, I believe, is hero worshipped on After hours for his remarkable ability to put his foot firmly in his mouth:D


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    #257
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    And, I believe, is hero worshipped on After hours for his remarkable ability to put his foot firmly in his mouth:D

    Philip just likes putting people at ease by lightening the atmosphere with off-the-cuff quips that shouldn't be taken seriously! That's what his friends say.

    He's been to Ireland before, but wasn't surrounded by microphones.

    This visit should be good.


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    #258
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MajorMax wrote: »
    Just because some old German trout wants to do a bit of shopping in Grafton St is no skin off my nose. All tourists are welcome.

    I don't know if you're being facetious with this, but this is exactly the kind of attitude we need in this country! A "who gives a shit" indifference, the kind of reaction we have to practically every other head of state in the world. Once we get to that stage, we'll well and truly achievced normalisation with the UK.


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    #259
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    She oversaw the Troubles in NI, thats enough responsibility there.

    My God, and I thought the royal family were out of touch with reality!! You think the Queen Bess was in operational command of her armed forces in the North?! From a hi-tech situation room in some bunker deep under Buckingham Palace no doubt. The mind boggles. If this kind of nonsense represents the type of argument that will be presented against a visit, then I think it's fairly safe to say that we'll be seeing her within a a year or so.


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    #260
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Just because something is planned doesn't mean that it's not an atrocity.

    Two examples : September 11th & the Invasion of Iraq.
    If you didn't support the IRA, it was not an atrocity.


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    #261
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Notorious97 wrote: »
    i don’t think she should be invited in an official capacity and the tax payer left to pay for her security when we have never received an official apology for everything this country went through.

    We received one from the Government with regards to Blood Sunday which was fantastic.

    Tony Blair apologised for the Famine, Cameron for Bloody Sunday, and still, almost a hundred years after independence, we're snivelling about not getting more apologies for all the Brits perpetrated. It's bloody embarassing, and doesn't exactly portray a mature, confident society, much as you'd try to argue otherwise.

    Im only stating facts and how most republicans feel, again il say it so you don’t miss it that i havent once hinted at the thought i agree with harm coming to her. I think a peaceful protest raising valid objections to this visit it in order. I don’t and wont agree with any riots but im probably being stupid expecting the whole trip to pass off peacefully.

    I'd have no problems with a peaceful protest. None whatsoever. But I do object to the notion that violence is somehow justified, or that the victims of such violence have somehow brought it upon themselves, as some have tried to argue here.
    A peaceful protest is a mature response, a violent one is obviously no good for anybody concerned as people will be injured and the cost for the clean up will be alot higher.

    That's a reasonable position. And just so the only pictures broadcast around the world aren't of sullen (hopefully) or rowdy (possibly) protests to the visit of the head of state of our nearest neighbour, I'll be there waving my little Union Jack.


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    #262
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why on earth would monarchists don't give a sh1t what their monarch says?:confused:

    They worship her just like Al-Qaeda worship God.

    This is just silly.


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    #263
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Einhard wrote: »
    My God, and I thought the royal family were out of touch with reality!! You think the Queen Bess was in operational command of her armed forces in the North?! From a hi-tech situation room in some bunker deep under Buckingham Palace no doubt. The mind boggles. If this kind of nonsense represents the type of argument that will be presented against a visit, then I think it's fairly safe to say that we'll be seeing her within a a year or so.

    Can you read posts? Where did i say I oppose her visit?:confused:
    Einhard wrote: »
    This is just silly.

    Great contribution.


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    #264
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    No it wouldn't have stopped the Troubles. It would have saved many lives by denouncing killing in her name by Loyalists who follow her.
    Do you honestly believe that if the Queen had asked Loyalists to cease their activities they would have taken a blind bit of notice?


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    #265
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why on earth would monarchists don't give a sh1t what their monarch says?:confused:

    They worship her just like Al-Qaeda worship God.
    Not a great contribution.


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    #266
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    What did ye lot do before the QE2 is coming to Dublin threads started for fun


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    #267
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    dvpower wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe that if the Queen had asked Loyalists to cease their activities they would have taken a blind bit of notice?

    Well as much notice as the IRA did of John Paul 2


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    #268
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    who the fug wrote: »
    What did ye lot do before the QE2 is coming to Dublin threads started for fun

    I for one pointed out the lack of punctuation in other people's posts, but have since given that hobby up


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    #269
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    My name is URL wrote: »
    I for one pointed out the lack of punctuation in other people's posts, but have since given that hobby up

    Sounds like more fun


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    #270
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    dvpower wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe that if the Queen had asked Loyalists to cease their activities they would have taken a blind bit of notice?

    Yes, a leader showing leadership if only she did.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Not a great contribution.
    :confused:


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    #271
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    So that completes part 4 of this debate/trainwreck.

    We'll give it a few more months before the next chapter.

    There are one or two posters who need to sort some issues out beforehand.


This discussion has been closed.
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