General Star Trek thread

GreeBo · 07-03-2021 8:01pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Those who don't enjoy still have to come on and derail every episode thread with regurgitated crap from Youtube edgelords though.

Like I said, those who disagree are all idiots and pathetic right?
Does every thread have to be a positive love in? What happened to the art of criticism? Shows like Discovery deserve criticism, it's very poorly done.

GreeBo · 07-03-2021 8:04pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Greebo made the assertion that Prodigy was some outlier for existing to just make money. That could be said of all Trek. Yes it has often had artistic merit but speculating that Prodigy is the first Trek to exist for money making purposes is naive. CBS/Paramount like money, and aren't making Discovery for the love

Wrong, I didn't say it was an outlier for making money. Everything is made to make money, but it doesn't all trade off an existing, successful brand while being totally unrelated, like this appears it could be.

pixelburp · 07-03-2021 8:17pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Wrong, I didn't say it was an outlier for making money. Everything is made to make money, but it doesn't all trade off an existing, successful brand while being totally unrelated, like this appears it could be.

Well can we at least agree we both got each other wrong, if you're snipping half my post? Don't want to virtue signal, like.

And the key word here is, "Appears". We know Janeway is coming back so to say the show is going to be totally unrelated isn't fair; IIRC the synopsis is the aliens discover an old Federation ship so unlikely the iconography will be that wildly different. Janeway probably plays a surrogate parent / quest giver role were I to guess. Best option is to wait and see for a trailer because everything else is speculation and presumption on a series of mugshots. With goofy, colourful design aesthetics clearly aimed at children. They wouldn't be what I'D have gone for but equally it's cool to see properly exotic aliens in Trek, the benefit of animation of course and one of the many joys of Lower Decks

07-03-2021 9:10pm

It's a fecking poster lads

breezy1985 · 07-03-2021 9:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Like I said, those who disagree are all idiots and pathetic right?
Does every thread have to be a positive love in? What happened to the art of criticism? Shows like Discovery deserve criticism, it's very poorly done.

Im not calling for a love in and there is little I like about Discovery. But there are people here who use it to whinge about "woke politics" and hate shows not based on the shows merits

pixelburp · 07-03-2021 9:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a fecking poster lads

I can see it now. The 40 minute YouTube video, "10 Things You Missed from Star Trek: Prodigy Poster". With the classic thumbnail of a big red arrow pointing at something utterly unrelated to the content. Like! Subscribe! Ring that bell!

Rawr · 07-03-2021 9:23pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I can see it now. The 40 minute YouTube video, "10 Things You Missed from Star Trek: Prodigy Poster". With the classic thumbnail of a big red arrow pointing at something utterly unrelated to the content. Like! Subscribe! Ring that bell!

And *SMASH* that Like Button! (very important)

Markitron · 08-03-2021 12:22am

pixelburp wrote: »

I can see it now. The 40 minute YouTube video, "10 Things You Missed from Star Trek: Prodigy Poster". With the classic thumbnail of a big red arrow pointing at something utterly unrelated to the content. Like! Subscribe! Ring that bell!

And the sequel video: 'Why Star Trek: Prodigy is a complete failure', the thumbnail will a pic of the poster with badly photoshopped memes pasted on top of it.

GreeBo · 08-03-2021 9:27am

Getting very difficult to figure out who are the edgelords and who are mocking the edgelords on this thread. Maybe something to think about?

breezy1985 · 08-03-2021 10:29am

GreeBo wrote: »

Getting very difficult to figure out who are the edgelords and who are mocking the edgelords on this thread. Maybe something to think about?

Pretty obvious to me

GreeBo · 08-03-2021 1:47pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Pretty obvious to me

Likewise!

pixelburp · 08-03-2021 3:53pm

Mocking YouTube is "edgelord" now? LOL, uh no. WTF even is this thread anymore?

So. Star Trek: Prodigy. The real question is: what kind of Janeway will we get? Given how infamous it was, just how much that character see-sawed across the series, you'd wonder where exactly Prodigy's writers will pitch things.

Evade · 08-03-2021 4:56pm

I think Janeway will end up like a Burnham light, as in always being right no matter what but without being the focus of every scene, the kids(?) will end up doing the legwork.

I'd prefer an antagonist do the wrong thing for the right reason future Janeway from Endgame with a hint of deranged flag officer that used to be a Star Trek mainstay.

Stark · 08-03-2021 5:18pm

Evade wrote:

I think Janeway will end up like a Burnham light, as in always being right no matter what

Fairly typical Star Trek captain fare really. Janeway was probably one of the more nuanced captains as in she made quite a lot of mistakes (and got the crew killed several times requiring a plot bailout).

Rawr · 09-03-2021 9:23am

Evade wrote: »

I'd prefer an antagonist do the wrong thing for the right reason future Janeway from Endgame with a hint of deranged flag officer that used to be a Star Trek mainstay.

Now *that* could be very interesting. It was what I had hoped Starfleet would have been in Picard. Essentially a well-meaning antagonist who will use their might to try and stop the heroes of our story. Picard couldn't manage this and than dropped the ball entirely with a copy & paste fleet, but maybe this new show could pull that off.

The kids are flying off in their discovered / stolen old starship, while Admiral Janeway is hunting them down in an effort to protect them from themselves and stop their journey before they somehow kill themselves. In the process of all of this you might even have Janeway realise that the plight of these kids and her hunt of them has rekindled memories of Voyager.

Could be *very* good character dynamic there...*if* they do it right.

AMKC · 09-03-2021 4:44pm

Do you think Humans will ever overcome Bigotry and if so when? Archer said in Enterprise Season 2 Episode 14 title "Stigma" that humans had overcome Bigotry in the 2050s sometime but no exact date just about a century before that episode.
Also do you think it would happen either before or after WW3? After WW3 probably makes more sense because if it was before it then what was the war about?

pixelburp · 09-03-2021 4:57pm

AMKC wrote: »

Do you think Humans will ever overcome Bigotry and if so when? Archer said in Enterprise Season 2 Episode 14 that humans had overcome Bigotry in the 2050s sometime but no exact date just about a century before that episode.

I think so, eventually; much of the bigotry we deal with today are "only" holdovers from embedded historical contexts we simply accept as the status quo. Like, I think we sometimes forget first and foremost Star Trek is an American show with an American sense of self: it's easy to forget that in the US, there are (just about) still people alive who lived through the Jim Crow era, or the Tuskegee Syphilis Study (well, I don't know if there are survivors, given the subject). Heck the US police force has origins in slavery enforcement. Bigotry is still part of the social consciousness, and healing takes time.

Dropping "the patriarchy" into the conversation can send folks running for the hills, but when you read of historical civilisations, it can really open the eyes to just how commodified women's lives were from country to country - and disentangling that cultural sense of lopsided equality takes time. If you want to get a sense of just how obscene it got, read a little on the history of women's medicine. It's ... astonishing how much women suffered simply because they were either not worth the hassle, or male doctors made ignorant assumptions about female bodies (and to pivot back to racism, the father of gynaecology made many of his discoveries by operating, without consent, on black slaves). There's a LOT of baggage to get rid of.

Right now, I see humanity as entering its adolescent phase; that awkward period when things go a bit insane as old ways are shaken off and a future tries to assert itself through wild swings in the opposite direction. And as much as people like to cry about SJWs or whatnot, I'd rather folks make mistakes through good intentions than the opposite.

As to the when? I dunno, 2050 feels incredibly optimistic. Archer spoke from a script written in the early days of the internet, probably by a bunch of white guys, and I myself swing wildly as to whether the internet is a Net Benefit to humanity or a Net loss. Whether it helps mend bigotry or create more instead. It certainly makes it _easier_ to be a bigot.

edit: did I take that answer too seriously? I can never telll :pac:

Evade · 09-03-2021 6:05pm

I'd imagine First Contact had a lot to do with it, nothing unites people like having another group to compete with. It's that old saying attributed to the Bedouin "I'm against my brother, I'm with my brother against my cousin, I'm with my brother and cousin against everyone else."

pixelburp · 09-03-2021 6:12pm

Evade wrote: »

I'd imagine First Contact had a lot to do with it, nothing unites people like having another group to compete with. It's that old saying attributed to the Bedouin "I'm against my brother, I'm with my brother against my cousin, I'm with my brother and cousin against everyone else."

I'd generally agree with you (there's a first

), but ... in real life? These days? Maybe there's room for scepticism. I'm not even sure First Contact would rattle our cages enough anymore. For a start, you'd now have to reckon with a cohort of humanity that'd scream "FAKE NEWS" at a First Contact scenario; the world is burning and half the internet wants to demean and scream at the teenager acting as ambassador against climate collapse. While Star Trek's general allergy towards the subject of earth religions, ignores that other likely scenario that the event would cause a huge schism among religions across the globe. Possibly causing some serious regional conflicts to properly kick-off. There'd be a lot of very nervous generals, looking for any excuse to finally give their neighbours a good licking

breezy1985 · 09-03-2021 6:12pm

Evade wrote: »

I'd imagine First Contact had a lot to do with it, nothing unites people like having another group to compete with. It's that old saying attributed to the Bedouin "I'm against my brother, I'm with my brother against my cousin, I'm with my brother and cousin against everyone else."

The Bedouin were clearly GAA fans

Evade · 09-03-2021 6:35pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd generally agree with you (there's a first ), but ... in real life? These days? Maybe there's room for scepticism. I'm not even sure First Contact would rattle our cages enough anymore. For a start, you'd now have to reckon with a cohort of humanity that'd scream "FAKE NEWS" at a First Contact scenario;

Maybe, maybe not. I've been on a bit of a Yes (Prime) Minister kick lately and I really don't think anything has really changed since then.

pixelburp wrote: »

While Star Trek's general allergy towards the subject of earth religions, ignores that other likely scenario that the event would cause a huge schism among religions across the globe. Possibly causing some serious regional conflicts to properly kick-off. There'd be a lot of very nervous generals, looking for any excuse to finally give their neighbours a good licking

I haven't seen it since the early 00s but Earth Final Conflict, also by Roddenberry, is all about a first contact Earth.

corkie · 09-03-2021 6:58pm

Evade wrote: »

I haven't seen it since the early 00s but Earth Final Conflict, also by Roddenberry, is all about a first contact Earth.

Can remember watching some of that show, it seems to be available on youtube.

breezy1985 · 09-03-2021 7:06pm

Space Above and Beyond

pixelburp · 09-03-2021 7:47pm

Evade wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. I've been on a bit of a Yes (Prime) Minister kick lately and I really don't think anything has really changed since then.

I haven't seen it since the early 00s but Earth Final Conflict, also by Roddenberry, is all about a first contact Earth.

I don't think the psychology has changed its more that the technology has allowed it to infest otherwise normal, sane humans to an industrial level now. The internet has allowed all knowledge to be accessible to everyone - but also every dark impulse previously limited by geography or physical printing.

Never seen Roddenberry's other work, and I'd be curious whether he'd have the skill to navigate those complexities. He was a very naive writer in many ways, which was mostly a good thing but the world building kinda suffered as a result. TBH I wouldn't have said the 90s were even aware of a more global, interfaith narrative. But open to correction

AMKC · 09-03-2021 8:04pm

So I thought came onto my head this evening. What if ODO had of been female? Would this have been better or worse. I think Quark would have had to be Female as well then or he could have been left as male but Kira would have to be male. It certainly would have made some of the dynamics on the show different. I know he could change anytime to any shape he chooses but if he had of been Female he could have used makeup to hide the imperfect face not that I have a problem with males using makeup either but maybe st the time it would not have went down well on TV.

breezy1985 · 09-03-2021 8:07pm

AMKC wrote: »

So I thought came onto my head this evening. What if ODO had of been female? Would this have been better or worse. I think Quark would have had to be Female as well then or he could have been left as male but Kira would have to be male. It certainly would have made some of the dynamics on the show different. I know he could change anytime to any shape he chooses but if he had of been Female he could have used makeup to hide the imperfect face not that I have a problem with males using makeup either but maybe st the time it would not have went down well on TV.

Why would Quark or Kira need to be male ?

AMKC · 09-03-2021 8:10pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Why would Quark or Kira need to be male ?

For the right dynamic to work and because of the time it was made.sure I suppose if it was done now they could be both male or both Female with no problem as long as the dynamic was still there.

breezy1985 · 09-03-2021 8:13pm

AMKC wrote: »

For the right dynamic to work and because of the time it was made.sure I suppose if it was done now they could be both male or both Female with no problem as long as the dynamic was still there.

I get that Berman would not of had a bisexual Kira but I really don't see it changing Quark much. Sure he might want to bang Odo but it wouldn't change the love hate relationship that much

Evade · 09-03-2021 8:25pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I don't think the psychology has changed its more that the technology has allowed it to infest otherwise normal, sane humans to an industrial level now. The internet has allowed all knowledge to be accessible to everyone - but also every dark impulse previously limited by geography or physical printing.

You have to take the good with the bad I suppose. Lockdown would have been a lot more rioty (caused by the lockdown itself, not other things) even 10 years ago.

Cookie_Monster · 12-03-2021 9:32am

pixelburp wrote: »

I think so, eventually; much of the bigotry we deal with today are "only" holdovers from embedded historical contexts we simply accept as the status quo. Like, I think we sometimes forget first and foremost Star Trek is an American show with an American sense of self: it's easy to forget that in the US, there are (just about) still people alive who lived through the Jim Crow era, or the Tuskegee Syphilis Study (well, I don't know if there are survivors, given the subject). Heck the US police force has origins in slavery enforcement. Bigotry is still part of the social consciousness, and healing takes time.

Interesting topic, if you watch Grey's or Station 19 at the moment it seems horrifically over the top in terms of anti black story and the moralising in it as someone outside of the US. but I guess for the US audience it might actually hit home and be accurate...

Evade · 13-03-2021 3:49pm

I'd love to see a parallel timeline where Snipes and Burton had each others' careers.

https://www.cbr.com/wesley-snipes-audition-star-trek-next-generation-geordi/

breezy1985 · 13-03-2021 5:34pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Interesting topic, if you watch Grey's or Station 19 at the moment it seems horrifically over the top in terms of anti black story and the moralising in it as someone outside of the US. but I guess for the US audience it might actually hit home and be accurate...

Off topic but how the hell did Grey's Anatomy spin off into a fire station show and looking at the episode reviews why are fire crews taking on sex traffickers and the like ?

pixelburp · 13-03-2021 7:41pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Interesting topic, if you watch Grey's or Station 19 at the moment it seems horrifically over the top in terms of anti black story and the moralising in it as someone outside of the US. but I guess for the US audience it might actually hit home and be accurate...

Don't watch either shows but at this stage, if the only way America can deal with its racism is through entertainment media then fair enough, it isn't produced for my approval or "enjoyment". I'd be lying if the county's foibles don't interest me, like a continent sized reality show. There doesn't seem to be political will to implement reparations or some kind of official atonement ala South Africa, so seems fitting it's only through TV and film the country can parse its past and present.

Keeping it related, Trek IMO has always been part of that public domain conversation too, even to this day, as much as some online seem to rage against this idea it was ever thus. Shítty writing is the true albatross of Trek these days, but this isn't caused by or formed from any sense of empowerment or continuing inclusivity. And again, we're only glomming onto American pop culture, it's not really for us (foreign box offices notwithstanding WRT the movies)

silverharp · 13-03-2021 11:32pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Keeping it related, Trek IMO has always been part of that public domain conversation too, even to this day, as much as some online seem to rage against this idea it was ever thus. Shítty writing is the true albatross of Trek these days, but this isn't caused by or formed from any sense of empowerment or continuing inclusivity. And again, we're only glomming onto American pop culture, it's not really for us (foreign box offices notwithstanding WRT the movies)

bad writing was only a symptom of a bad strategy. They didnt like Trek so they wanted to make a Game of Trek Wars, wasnt going to end well. Had there been a Roddenberry AI that had creative control, it would had rejected all this nonsense.

there is a nice little clip here from the actress behind Dr Pulaski from 1:17, its less than a minute long but sums up nicely the Roddenberry ethos with some cheeky contrast inserts from Klutzman Trek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGz7Lb5eBU

lapua20grain · 14-03-2021 8:34am

Just finished watching lower decks, really good a lot better than I expected.

TenLeftFingers · 14-03-2021 10:33am

Could just be my age but watching TOS,TNG and DS9 seemed visionary because it always seemed like humanity in space.

Now they (Disc.,Pic.,Orville) just seems more like Americans/Brits in space minus the science, philosophy and diplomacy. But as I say, maybe it was never really any different.

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 10:54am

It was never any different IMO. And continues to be. "Foreign" people in the original runs amounted to Brits or Irish (or "French" by way of the RSC :rolleyes:) but American TV never really had much of an international perspective beyond 3rd world clichés or London / Paris (basically the only two EU locations according to US telly. Or rather, excuses for holidays for the producers and cast). The original series was basically about America the Melting Pot, rather than anything completely global.

It's a shame, cos that helms officer on Discovery sounds to have an African accent so clearly they're aiming for more international flavour - just forgot to give her any kind of character (still can't remember her name)

TenLeftFingers · 14-03-2021 11:11am

pixelburp wrote: »

The original series was basically about America the Melting Pot, rather than anything completely global.

Nail on head i think.

Anyone want to crowdfund my idea for a spaceship crash landing in the Gaeltacht and conspiring with the locals to covertly repair the ship and save the galaxy?

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 11:30am

pixelburp wrote: »

It was never any different IMO. And continues to be. "Foreign" people in the original runs amounted to Brits or Irish (or "French" by way of the RSC :rolleyes:) but American TV never really had much of an international perspective beyond 3rd world clichés or London / Paris (basically the only two EU locations according to US telly. Or rather, excuses for holidays for the producers and cast). The original series was basically about America the Melting Pot, rather than anything completely global.

It's a shame, cos that helms officer on Discovery sounds to have an African accent so clearly they're aiming for more international flavour - just forgot to give her any kind of character (still can't remember her name)

You forgot about the Russian guy on the wessel but ya you are right about Starfleet looking more like NASA with all the Americans.

Discovery doesnt do much better. You are referring to Owo who is the ops officer and she says she grey up in Africa but sounds American just like the Asian guy on the bridge and Lorca who is played by a scouser

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 11:40am

silverharp wrote: »

bad writing was only a symptom of a bad strategy. They didnt like Trek so they wanted to make a Game of Trek Wars, wasnt going to end well. Had there been a Roddenberry AI that had creative control, it would had rejected all this nonsense.

there is a nice little clip here from the actress behind Dr Pulaski from 1:17, its less than a minute long but sums up nicely the Roddenberry ethos with some cheeky contrast inserts from Klutzman Trek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGz7Lb5eBU

All that Gene knows the ship stuff is BS in fairness as is a lot of the **** over Genes vision but one thing its gets spot on is that everyone seems to have forgotten the stun setting on phasers. No problem with drilling a mans eye or any violence but I am sick of seeing people vaporised for the sake of it when we all know stun exists.

Evade · 14-03-2021 12:01pm

TNG has a Somalian character in the main cast and TOS has someone most likely from a country in eastern Africa.

I think Voyager has the most American crew, aliens aside, of all the Star Treks.

Stark · 14-03-2021 12:03pm

I'd avoid leaning towards originalism and going with the narrative that if Roddenberry was alive and in full control, things would be perfect. There's a lot of great Trek that went against Roddenberry's vision and wishes. DS9 being the primary example. He also tried to shoot down great TNG episodes like "Family" and was thankfully overruled.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 12:09pm

Evade wrote: »

TNG has a Somalian character in the main cast and TOS has someone most likely from a country in eastern Africa.

I think Voyager has the most American crew, aliens aside, of all the Star Treks.

Ya but they were "African" not African. DS9 is the only one where the characters are played by a cast from the country they are actually from

Rawr · 14-03-2021 12:11pm

Stark wrote: »

I'd avoid leaning towards originalism and going with the narrative that if Roddenberry was alive and in full control, things would be perfect. There's a lot of great Trek that went against Roddenberry's vision and wishes. DS9 being the primary example. He also tried to shoot down great TNG episodes like "Family" and was thankfully overruled.

Kind of feeds into my own feeling that Roddenberry was both a credit to Trek as creator and creative force behind the early years of the franchise, but also a bit of a mill-stone around the neck of where the series could potentially go. I do feel that a lot of good Trek did dare to depart from the formula that Roddenberry often enforced in early TNG before he died. As mentioned, DS9 did this well.

I myself am not as much a purest when it comes to new Trek's relation to "Roddenberry's vision". I generally don't mind as long as what is made of Trek is any good. That ultimately is my objection to the likes of Discovery, which took Trek and did something very lack-luster with it.

pixelburp · 14-03-2021 12:11pm

Evade wrote: »

TNG has a Somalian character in the main cast and TOS has someone most likely from a country in eastern Africa.

I think Voyager has the most American crew, aliens aside, of all the Star Treks.

Ah, no they didnt, not in any meaningful sense of it being a postcard summary of character. Scotty, for all his bad accent and cliché, was definitely not meant to be American. Ditto Chekhov. Same with Picard, again despite contrivance. Uhuru and LeForge never once suggested any regional variance in behaviour, character or just accents. Which as we saw in the show was how they differentiated that kind of thing, alongside national stereotypes.

If a character spoke with an American accent, they were an American. And as said, TOS was meant to be a representation of America as the lodestone for globalism, rather than a true Community of Nations that a Fed bridge should be.

Rawr · 14-03-2021 12:14pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ya but they were "African" not African. DS9 is the only one where the characters are played by a cast from the country they are actually from

Dr. Bashir was supposed to be English, wasn't he? I always liked the idea that DS9's Englishman and Irishman were best buddies. Sort of worked against any stereotype of animosity that an American audience might have assumed.

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 12:21pm

Rawr wrote: »

Dr. Bashir was supposed to be English, wasn't he? I always liked the idea that DS9's Englishman and Irishman were best buddies. Sort of worked against any stereotype of animosity that an American audience might have assumed.

Not sure it is ever said out loud but ya I think he was. The only miscasting DS9 done was having a Dub play a Kerryman, surprised Jacky Healy-Rae never brought it up in the Dail

Evade · 14-03-2021 12:29pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Uhuru and LeForge never once suggested any regional variance in behaviour, character or just accents.

How exactly does someone act Somalian or east African?

breezy1985 · 14-03-2021 12:34pm

Evade wrote: »

How exactly does someone act Somalian or east African?

By getting a Somalian or East African to play them.

Same way that O'Brien is a way better depiction of an Irish person than all the Oirish on US TV

Evade · 14-03-2021 12:43pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

By getting a Somalian or East African to play them.

Completely disagree. This is one is the worst ideas to crop up in the last few years and defeats the point of being an actor.

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