Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

Risteard81 · 08-03-2021 6:52pm

liamog wrote: »

Is that an equipment warranty or an installation warranty? Still seems like your customers are getting a bum deal because of the costs to you of providing warranty labour services. Would be interesting to see how it differs in the 26.

Both parts and labour. It doesn't mean that anyone's getting a "bum deal" - markup is standard practice. I don't believe that SEAI requires a similar warranty in the 26-Counties as you don't register with them and the customer gets the payment. OLEV pay the installer directly on the other hand and require them to be registered for EVHS (Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme) and/or WCS (Workplace Charging Scheme) to offer the grants. We are registered for both EVHS and WCS and typically have to wait around six months for the grant payment to be made. We aren't allowed to invoice for the grant amount before being paid either under OLEV rules.

liamog · 08-03-2021 7:01pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Both parts and labour. It doesn't mean that anyone's getting a "bum deal" - markup is standard practice. I don't believe that SEAI requires a similar warranty in the 26-Counties as you don't register with them and the customer gets the payment. OLEV pay the installer directly on the other hand and require them to be registered for EVHS (Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme) and/or WCS (Workplace Charging Scheme) to offer the grants. We are registered for both EVHS and WCS and typically have to wait around six months for the grant payment to be made. We aren't allowed to invoice for the grant amount before being paid either under OLEV rules.

You've said yourself that you have to mark up parts significantly to to cover the cost of warranty repairs due to manufacturers not covering the travel and labour costs incurred.
If an installation in Ireland only covers the parts warranty and not installation costs then it stands to reason, that you don't need to significantly mark up the parts to cover those costs.

I'd rather pay a fair price and pay warranty labour costs 12 months after the install, than see every customer pay elevated costs to cover the rare eventuality that there may be a warranty repair required. It's just a different way of doing business.

Gumbo · 08-03-2021 7:17pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

I thought you would also need the car registered in some other persons name,in other words you can not avail of grant twice irrespective of MPRN.

Nope. Car can be in same name.
The big thing SEAI look at is the MPRN matches the address on the application form and in turn matches the address on the VLC.

Risteard81 · 08-03-2021 10:56pm

liamog wrote: »

You've said yourself that you have to mark up parts significantly to to cover the cost of warranty repairs due to manufacturers not covering the travel and labour costs incurred.
If an installation in Ireland only covers the parts warranty and not installation costs then it stands to reason, that you don't need to significantly mark up the parts to cover those costs.

I'd rather pay a fair price and pay warranty labour costs 12 months after the install, than see every customer pay elevated costs to cover the rare eventuality that there may be a warranty repair required. It's just a different way of doing business.

I simply stated that one reason why a markup is required is for warranty returns. Other reasons include specifying; sourcing; storing etc. The fact is that every business must sell for more than it buys. That is a simple fact of business. As such marking up goods is non-negotiable, and we don't as a rule entertain fitting customer-supplied products as liability issues are less clear. They can also frequently purchase crap which takes longer to fit, or is inappropriate for the job at hand. Other times they supply the wrong materials and you're left waiting on them to return them and get the right things. It just doesn't work for us, and for most contractors.

TitianGerm · 08-03-2021 11:39pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

I simply stated that one reason why a markup is required is for warranty returns. Other reasons include specifying; sourcing; storing etc. The fact is that every business must sell for more than it buys. That is a simple fact of business. As such marking up goods is non-negotiable, and we don't as a rule entertain fitting customer-supplied products as liability issues are less clear. They can also frequently purchase crap which takes longer to fit, or is inappropriate for the job at hand. Other times they supply the wrong materials and you're left waiting on them to return them and get the right things. It just doesn't work for us, and for most contractors.

As a rough idea how often do you think a part fails that you have to provide a replacement under warranty? I assume if it's an issue with a part used you return it to the supplier for a refund/replacement/credit on your trade account.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 12:46am

TitianGerm wrote: »

As a rough idea how often do you think a part fails that you have to provide a replacement under warranty? I assume if it's an issue with a part used you return it to the supplier for a refund/replacement/credit on your trade account.

Again, you miss the fact that whilst the part will be replaced or a credit note issued, my time and Diesel etc. for replacing it are not covered.

As for how often, obviously not terribly often as we only source good quality materials. That said, it happens from time to time. One downlight failed recently at a customer's premises out of a fair few installed. We still had to go and replace it and return it to the wholesaler for a credit note. This obviously used up a fair bit of time which we will not be compensated for. And we had to fit this into an already hectic schedule, as it is not our policy to keep customers waiting unduly with warranty issues.

liamog · 09-03-2021 12:53am

Risteard81 wrote: »

I simply stated that one reason why a markup is required is for warranty returns.

We're not arguing that you can't mark up parts, but when you make claims that a part that can be found for €20 is justifiably billed at many multiples of €25 it comes across as taking advantage, and may explain why we see such variance in pricing between suppliers.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 1:21am

liamog wrote: »

We're not arguing that you can't mark up parts, but when you make claims that a part that can be found for €20 is justifiably billed at many multiples of €25 it comes across as taking advantage, and may explain why we see such variance in pricing between suppliers.

I never mentioned what I mark parts up by.

liamog · 09-03-2021 1:57am

Risteard81 wrote: »

A Type B RCD required for many units is many multiples of 25 Euro. And these are the industry standard standard install rates. I never mentioned what I charge.

The Type B RCBO fitted by the registered electrician who did my install can be sourced for less than €20 ex VAT.
That quote is from you telling another poster that his figure of €25 for the same was incorrect.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 3:26am

liamog wrote: »

The Type B RCBO fitted by the registered electrician who did my install can be sourced for less than €20 ex VAT.
That quote is from you telling another poster that his figure of €25 for the same was incorrect.

That just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

Type B has different meanings within the context of MCB and RCD characteristics.

The overcurrent characteristic of the RCBO might be Type B, but this will either be a Type AC or Type A RCD. (Probably Type AC.)

I have never come across a Type B RCD in the format of an RCBO - only an RCCB. These cost literally hundreds each.

TitianGerm · 09-03-2021 9:09am

Risteard81 wrote: »

Again, you miss the fact that whilst the part will be replaced or a credit note issued, my time and Diesel etc. for replacing it are not covered.

As for how often, obviously not terribly often as we only source good quality materials. That said, it happens from time to time. One downlight failed recently at a customer's premises out of a fair few installed. We still had to go and replace it and return it to the wholesaler for a credit note. This obviously used up a fair bit of time which we will not be compensated for. And we had to fit this into an already hectic schedule, as it is not our policy to keep customers waiting unduly with warranty issues.

So if the part doesn't fail that often what are we talking about? 1% of all installs have to have a return visit? If it was me I'd look at my turnover, profit and invoice numbers in the prior year to get an estimate of warranty repairs which can be expected the following year.

Say you're making €70k in profit on €400k turnover over 500 invoices for example would it not be appropriate to allow 1% of that €70k spread over every job which would mean an additional €1.40 on each job to cover those warranty repairs?

Also don't tell me you go to the wholesalers with every faulty unit as soon as you replace them? I've plenty of family members in different trades and they never go back for a credit note when they've one item and wait until they're picking parts for the next job.

liamog · 09-03-2021 10:39am

Risteard81 wrote: »

That just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

Type B has different meanings within the context of MCB and RCD characteristics.

The overcurrent characteristic of the RCBO might be Type B, but this will either be a Type AC or Type A RCD. (Probably Type AC.)

I have never come across a Type B RCD in the format of an RCBO - only an RCCB. These cost literally hundreds each.

I've not claimed to know what I'm talking about, but I am capable of looking up part numbers and seeing how much they are listed for. Are you now going to claim other installers are installing the wrong equipment to justify your elevated prices?

liamog · 09-03-2021 11:12am

liamog wrote: »

I've not claimed to know what I'm talking about, but I am capable of looking up part numbers and seeing how much they are listed for. Are you now going to claim other installers are installing the wrong equipment to justify your elevated prices?

As an example here's a list of 40A Type B RCBO's from a reputable supplier.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024#category=cat7230024&amprating=40_a&curvetype=type_b&sort_by=-price, as you can see a range from £11.99 to £149.99, with all but one being under £37.39.

Maybe give us the part number of the RCBO that you fit to back up your statement?

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 12:28pm

liamog wrote: »

As an example here's a list of 40A Type B RCBO's from a reputable supplier.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024#category=cat7230024&amprating=40_a&curvetype=type_b&sort_by=-price, as you can see a range from £11.99 to £149.99, with all but one being under £37.39.

Maybe give us the part number of the RCBO that you fit to back up your statement?

They are Type AC RCDs - NOT Type B!

Type B is just the overcurrent characteristic of the MCB element of those.

liamog · 09-03-2021 1:11pm

So looking into it, it appears the decision between an RCBO that has a relatively cheap Type A or the expensive Type B is driven by whether the charger had inbuilt DC leakage.

For instance the EO Mini datasheet specifically calls out that it does not require a Type B RCD, datasheet from here https://www.eocharging.com/resource-centre-products/eo-mini

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b96995789c172d9106f1574/t/5f8089c54f034713096475ea/1602259397832/EO+Mini+Data+Sheet+%5BUK+%26+Ireland%5D.pdf

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 1:23pm

liamog wrote: »

So looking into it, it appears the decision between an RCBO that has a relatively cheap Type A or the expensive Type B is driven by whether the charger had inbuilt DC leakage.

For instance the EO Mini datasheet specifically calls out that it does not require a Type B RCD, datasheet from here https://www.eocharging.com/resource-centre-products/eo-mini

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b96995789c172d9106f1574/t/5f8089c54f034713096475ea/1602259397832/EO+Mini+Data+Sheet+%5BUK+%26+Ireland%5D.pdf

Yes, but many EVSEs don't have the 6mA DC leakage detection and disconnection (e.g. all Tesla Wall Connectors).

KCross · 09-03-2021 1:24pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, but many EVSEs don't have the 6mA DC leakage detection and disconnection (e.g. all Tesla Wall Connectors).

Thats a mandatory OLEV requirement in the UK but not required here (at least yet)... correct?

liamog · 09-03-2021 1:32pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, but many EVSEs don't have the 6mA DC leakage detection and disconnection (e.g. all Tesla Wall Connectors).

From a post on the Tesla Motors Club, it looks like Tesla are the laggards here, and that most have now been updated to account for the requirement.

The Zappi, which seems to be one of the most popular charge points has a built in Type A RCD and 6mA DC protection, so doesn't even need the cheaper Type A RCD (https://myenergi.com/product/zappi/#product-specs).

Generally I recommend EO Mini's or Zappi's, good to know I've been saving people a few bob on the electrical equipment too.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 1:34pm

KCross wrote: »

Thats a mandatory OLEV requirement in the UK but not required here (at least yet)... correct?

Nothing to do with OLEV - it's a requirement of the Wiring Regulations.

It has also been a requirement of the Wiring Rules here for a number of years since Amendment 3 to ET101:2008 (Fourth Edition) was published. It is also a requirement of I.S. 10101:2020 (Fifth Edition).

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 1:36pm

liamog wrote: »

From a post on the Tesla Motors Club, it looks like Tesla are the laggards here, and that most have now been updated to account for the requirement.

The Zappi, which seems to be one of the most popular charge points has a built in Type A RCD and 6mA DC protection, so doesn't even need the cheaper Type A RCD (https://myenergi.com/product/zappi/#product-specs).

Generally I recommend EO Mini's or Zappi's, good to know I've been saving people a few bob on the electrical equipment too.

Not all Minis sold here have DC leakage protection. All sold in the UK do, however.

liamog · 09-03-2021 1:59pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Not all Minis sold here have DC leakage protection. All sold in the UK do, however.

Hopefully all that mark up you use for sourcing services can go into sourcing the updated units to save money on the RCD requirement

liamog · 09-03-2021 2:08pm

KCross wrote: »

Thats a mandatory OLEV requirement in the UK but not required here (at least yet)... correct?

Looks like it was due to an update to the IEC standard IEC 61851-1:2017 which stated that EV supply equipment requires

RCD Type B or;

A Type A RCD and appropriate equipment that ensures the disconnection of the supply in case of DC fault current above 6mA

https://www.evnex.com/articles/ev-charging-and-type-b-rcds

Probably explains why my installation has the €20 part, as it was installed in 2017.

Gumbo · 09-03-2021 2:11pm

liamog wrote: »

Looks like it was due to an update to the IEC standard IEC 61851-1:2017 which stated that EV supply equipment requires

https://www.evnex.com/articles/ev-charging-and-type-b-rcds

Probably explains why my installation has the €20 part, as it was installed in 2017.

Mine went in back in 2017 too. Certified and grant paid out.
Rightly or wrongly to today’s standards I don’t know. But we all know you can’t respectfully apply regulations so the regs apply at the time of construction / works.

I’m using my Tesla UMC with commando socket to get 7kw / 32a charging.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 2:15pm

liamog wrote: »

Hopefully all that mark up you use for sourcing services can go into sourcing the updated units to save money on the RCD requirement

If it's a job sent to us from an EV company then we can't control what they supply. We just have to ensure that the installation complies with the Rules (or Regulations in the Six Counties).

liamog · 09-03-2021 3:17pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

If it's a job sent to us from an EV company then we can't control what they supply. We just have to ensure that the installation complies with the Rules (or Regulations in the Six Counties).

Maybe give them the feedback that they are suppling outdated equipment resulting in many €100's in extra cost.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 8:46pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Mine went in back in 2017 too. Certified and grant paid out.
Rightly or wrongly to today’s standards I don’t know. But we all know you can’t respectfully apply regulations so the regs apply at the time of construction / works.

I’m using my Tesla UMC with commando socket to get 7kw / 32a charging.

That is a Type A RCD.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 8:49pm

liamog wrote: »

so doesn't even need the cheaper Type A RCD

It absolutely does need it. However it's there inside the charger so doesn't need to be fitted in the distribution board, which will of course still require overcurrent protection for the supply cable.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 8:50pm

liamog wrote: »

Maybe give us the part number of the RCBO that you fit to back up your statement?

I already pointed out earlier that I have never come across a Type B RCD in the format of an RCBO, but only as an RCCB. So if it needs a Type B RCD then it won't be an RCBO - it will be an RCCB and MCB.

Risteard81 · 09-03-2021 9:00pm

TitianGerm wrote: »

they never go back for a credit note when they've one item and wait until they're picking parts for the next job.

This still takes time - and often it takes a number of weeks for the credit note to come through. I've just received a credit note today for a return in September. I'm waiting on another one to come through for a part which was returned a month ago.

Gumbo · 09-03-2021 9:12pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

That is a Type A RCD.

Yes I was aware of that from previous posts on the matter.

Can you explain what’s the difference between this and a B Type RCD?

Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

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