Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

Risteard81

Gumbo wrote: »

Please explain?
The chargepoint manufactures recommend 40a RCBO. Well some of them that I looked at.

Many recommend a 40A overcurrent protective device. This won't necessarily be an RCBO. It might be an MCB if there is RCD protection within the unit, or if an RCCB is used for whatever reason.

asimp11

In the meter cabinet you put in a 6-8 module IP box with clear lid. This will have a double pole isolater as main shut off, then a 63amp mcb for the existing house and a 40amp RCBO (DC) for the charger. I would always recommend before this is done your electrician first carries out a full test of the existing installation and gives you a Safe Electric type 2 certificate to have your main fuse upgraded to 100 Amp supply by ESB networks. You can now have a smart meter and 25mm tails, this will be doing the job properly. He will make sure your existing electrical system is safe and that your gas, water and most importantly ground spike are connected to earth. As you are basically connecting a 75KW battery into your house!

Car batteries charge by DC current only, your car will have an inverter built in which allows you to use your home AC supply but the max power going in is restricted to 6/7 KW by your inverter (unless you go to a super charger station which use huge inverters). This means plugging in your car draws a constant 30 amps, so you only have to have on an electric shower and your kettle at the same time to blow your main ESB fuse. They usually blow at a sustained 75amps.

graememk

asimp11 wrote: »

In the meter cabinet you put in a 6-8 module IP box with clear lid. This will have a double pole isolater as main shut off, then a 63amp mcb for the existing house and a 40amp RCBO (DC) for the charger. I would always recommend before this is done your electrician first carries out a full test of the existing installation and gives you a Safe Electric type 2 certificate to have your main fuse upgraded to 100 Amp supply by ESB networks. You can now have a smart meter and 25mm tails, this will be doing the job properly. .

Don't Irish installs have the ESB fuse, and then a House fuse. I've got a 16kva supply, which is a 100 amp fuse, then there is an 80amp MCB protecting the property. So unless something drastically fails, the MCB will trip well before the ESB fuse goes.

Going on that logic wouldnt there be a 80amp mcb, which then the house has a 63 and the car charger has a 32?40?.
80amps at 230 is about 18kw.

17larsson

Felexicon wrote: »

New sub board with minimum 80A fuse. 63A for the house and then 32 for the charger.
Fit load balancing as needed.

It won't be an 80A unless the tails are increased to 25sq

Risteard81

Gumbo wrote: »

It appears to be definitely required now but why did so many electricians for and certify without it?

Obviously I can't speak for any third party. However it is clear that they must be fitted, and this isn't a new requirement. An EVSE is not a simple socket-outlet despite what many claim.

No simple socket-outlet contains control pilots and proximity pilots for example.

Gumbo

Risteard81 wrote: »

Obviously I can't speak for any third party. However it is clear that they must be fitted, and this isn't a new requirement. An EVSE is not a simple socket-outlet despite what many claim.

No simple socket-outlet contains control pilots and proximity pilots for example.

What is a typical isolator that one should have?

I currently have a 40a RCBO into 6mm Sq Wiring to a commando socket which uses Tesla’s UMC for 32a charging.

The commando socket can and has been removed before and can easily be replaced with a dedicated EVSE.

So I take it that the 6mm cable should be cut before the EVSE/Commando and a rotary isolator should be installed along the line?

Assuming no other house heavy loads, no electric showers etc what else is required?

Felexicon

17larsson wrote: »

It won't be an 80A unless the tails are increased to 25sq

Why are you increasing the tails to 25sq?

They are still protected by a 63A MCB

17larsson

Felexicon wrote: »

Why are you increasing the tails to 25sq?

They are still protected by a 63A MCB

You said new sub board would have a minimum 80A fuse

Felexicon

17larsson wrote: »

You said new sub board would have a minimum 80A fuse

Yeah. That then feeds a 63A fuse that the tails to the house fuse board go to. Then there will be a 32A RCBO for the EV charger.

Not me saying it by the way. It's all listed in the Safe Electric news letter.

17larsson

Felexicon wrote: »

Yeah. That then feeds a 63A fuse that the tails to the house fuse board go to. Then there will be a 32A RCBO for the EV charger.

Not me saying it by the way. It's all listed in the Safe Electric news letter.

It would have to be a 16kVA ESB supply if the main breaker is 80A. Most existing installations would only have 12kVA.

If the installation was upgraded from 12kVA to 16kVA the tails to the main board in the meter cabinet would have to be 25sq and the earthing conductor would have to be increased to 16sq also.

If the supply is left at 12kVA the MCB supplying the sub board inside would have to dropped to 50A which wouldn't be ideal.

Nice to have the option for installing at the ESB cabinet but not as straightforward an install as most might hope it is

Gumbo

From the March 2021 Newsletter ;

The installation of Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Points and the specific wiring rules that apply to this work are outlined in part 722 (Supplies for Electric Vehicles) of the wiring rules. This ensures that by law, this work can only be carried out by Registered Electrical Contractors (RECs).

All electrical work in Domestic Premises and all work contained in Part 7 of the wiring rules is restricted by law to Registered Electrical Contractors. According to the CRU Electrical Criteria Document and also the Safe Electric Rules of Registration, RECs can only certify works which they have carried out themselves.

It is a clear breach of these rules for RECs to provide certification for EV Chargers installed by non-RECs.

In order to avail of the SEAI EV Charger grant applicants can provide a Safe Electric completion certificate which of course only be issued by a REC. To avoid confusion in the Industry regarding the requirement to install Local Isolation for Domestic and Similar EV Chargers. Safe Electric have requested that the NSAI at Electrical Technical Committee TC 002 provide clarification on this issue.

NSAI/ETC/TC 002 has confirmed that an Electrical Vehicle Charger is more than a Socket Outlet and in fact an EV Charger falls under the definition of an appliance in the definition’s section of I.S. 10101 (Page 46).

According to a number of rules, particularly Rule 555.1 an isolator is required to be installed within 2 meters of an appliance. Safe Electric welcome this clarification, and RECs should note that if EV installations are being inspected and if an isolator is not installed an inspection non-conformance will be issued. This will mean that the REC will be given 10 days to install an isolator and provide a signed non-conformance confirming that the issue has been rectified

Following representations from ESBN, NSAI/ETC/TC 002 has also agreed that in existing installations, it is now permissible to connect an EV charger at the customers meter cabinet or at the customers Main overcurrent device in a multi-metering arrangement. While the ideal connection point for these chargers will always be the main internal distribution board, this development will provide a solution in situations where it is difficult or impossible to run cables back to the customers distribution board. In situations where this solution is utilised and in order to comply with rule 134.1.7 it is critical to create an awareness that switching off the main isolator at the customers distribution board will not isolate the EV Charger.

This can be achieved by placing a warning notice in a prominent location on the main distribution board. It is important that all RECs be aware that connections at the meter cabinet are only to be utilised for providing a solution in existing installations and are not to be used in new installations where it will always be possible to run cables to the distribution board. It is also recommended that only EV chargers are connected at meter locations and connections to garden sheds etc. are not to be encouraged. The customer equipment, including any overcurrent devices for the EV charging equipment are to be confined to the contractor area of the bottom right hand corner of the cabinet.

Easier to just link to the Newsletter - https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/03/MarchNewsletterSafeElecFinal-1.pdf

KCross

graememk wrote: »

Don't Irish installs have the ESB fuse, and then a House fuse. I've got a 16kva supply, which is a 100 amp fuse, then there is an 80amp MCB protecting the property. So unless something drastically fails, the MCB will trip well before the ESB fuse goes.

You may not have a 100A ESB fuse. It's more likely to be an 80A fuse but you might be lucky and they put in an 100A, but not a given.

liamog

Am I the only who finds humour in the warning message incorrectly identifying the charge point as a car charger.
No wonder they think it's an appliance, electrically it's as much of an appliance as those new fangled USB Wall Sockets.

the_amazing_raisin

17larsson wrote: »

It would have to be a 16kVA ESB supply if the main breaker is 80A. Most existing installations would only have 12kVA.

If the installation was upgraded from 12kVA to 16kVA the tails to the main board in the meter cabinet would have to be 25sq and the earthing conductor would have to be increased to 16sq also.

If the supply is left at 12kVA the MCB supplying the sub board inside would have to dropped to 50A which wouldn't be ideal.

Nice to have the option for installing at the ESB cabinet but not as straightforward an install as most might hope it is

I should mention that in my case I've a 16kVA supply. I guess they went for the extra power because I've a heat pump. House was a new build in 2017

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

You may not have a 100A ESB fuse. It's more likely to be an 80A fuse but you might be lucky and they put in an 100A, but not a given.

Also if you blow that fuse, you need to get the ESB out to replace it and they'll probably have some questions about how it got blown in the first place

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

electrically it's as much of an appliance as those new fangled USB Wall Sockets.

Except that's not really true, is it?

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

Except that's not really true, is it?

How's it different? A socket with USB ports has a controller for signalling wires to control and negotiate the voltage and current to the device at the other end of the cable. The power is then sent along other wires in the cable.

A charge point has a controller that sends a +/- 12V signal down signalling and proximity wires to control and negotiate the voltage and current that will be sent to the charger inside the car. The power is then sent along other wires in the cable.

The only real difference between the two is that signalling happens at 5V for a USB, and 12V on an EVSE. Both systems even use in cable resistors to ensure that the cable is capable of carrying the negotiated current and voltage.

JimmyKane

-oRnein9- wrote: »

Im looking to have a zappi v2 installed how much would be reasonable for supply and install to a 5yr old house given that the consumer unit is located in the utility room on the party wall so appox 20m of a run to the esb meter cabinet most likely running the cable externally from the back of the kitchen.

Thanks in advance.

I had my Zappi installed this week and connected directly to the meter cabinet.

My house sounds like a very similar set up to yours. It would have been very awkward to connect the charge point to the fuse box inside my house, and would have involved drilling through a couple of walls and running a lot of cable around the house which I really didn't want to do.
I got Nigel M Daly LTD (evchargingstations.ie) out based on all the good reviews on this thread. They installed my zappi directly to the meter box. It was an incredibly neat install and I would highly recommend them. The lads arrived out a half hour early and had the whole job done in under 3 hours. Very neat job and professional service. They will cost you more, but you get what you pay for.

Jofspring

I only had my Zappi installed last week. Frustrating to hear now it can be installed directly to the meter outside. Would have saved a lot of time, drilling through walls and wires running through my house or am I mistaken?

Has this just been approved? Going by the amount of work the electricians had to do I'm sure they would have preferred this option.

Gumbo

Jofspring wrote: »

I only had my Zappi installed last week. Frustrating to hear now it can be installed directly to the meter outside. Would have saved a lot of time, drilling through walls and wires running through my house or am I mistaken?

Has this just been approved? Going by the amount of work the electricians had to do I'm sure they would have preferred this option.

Yes it’s a recent clarification from Safe Electric and announced in their March newsletter that’s linked a couple of posts back, post #3487.

Risteard81

Gumbo wrote: »

Yes it’s a recent clarification from Safe Electric and announced in their March newsletter that’s linked a couple of posts back, post #3487.

Which was only sent yesterday by RECI - so it's extremely new.

Jofspring

Ah Jesus, what a sickner, for the sake of a week. Just hope the missus doesn't find out.

Risteard81

Jofspring wrote: »

Ah Jesus, what a sickner, for the sake of a week. Just hope the missus doesn't find out.

LOL.

It should be pointed out that it is only to be done this way as a last resort, and not as a matter of course. They still would prefer for it to come from the main distribution board directly.

-oRnein9-

Just a follow up I had someone out to quote from phoenix today apparently regs have changed just yesterday no need to go back to CU.
Nice to get a bit of luck

asimp11

Shouldn't really say this but I have done a few in the meter box before this new ruling came to pass. As most jobs needed work to be done in the meter box anyway. Safe elec got strict on the rule of putting a switch fuse in the meter box if your fuseboard was more than 3 meters away, so this little upgrade (most jobs needed) gave an opportunity to put a charger fuse in. This was approved by ESB two years ago, but has only just been agreed in full.

Summer8181

Does the vw connect charger have load management built in or is it only prepared for load management.

If it is only prepared can my local electrician wire load management or what is involved?

Gatster

JimmyKane wrote: »

I had my Zappi installed this week and connected directly to the meter cabinet.

My house sounds like a very similar set up to yours. It would have been very awkward to connect the charge point to the fuse box inside my house, and would have involved drilling through a couple of walls and running a lot of cable around the house which I really didn't want to do.
I got Nigel M Daly LTD (evchargingstations.ie) out based on all the good reviews on this thread. They installed my zappi directly to the meter box. It was an incredibly neat install and I would highly recommend them. The lads arrived out a half hour early and had the whole job done in under 3 hours. Very neat job and professional service. They will cost you more, but you get what you pay for.

Do you mind saying how much the install was? I got a quote last week for the exact same at €600 for the installation itself, which to me a seems a bit excessive but I may well be wrong!

Summer8181

ID connect charger has Dynamic load management
(Blackout Protection) ready

What do I need to do so this charger will have load management. Is it just simple wiring?
I have electric shower.

JimmyKane

Gatster wrote: »

Do you mind saying how much the install was? I got a quote last week for the exact same at €600 for the installation itself, which to me a seems a bit excessive but I may well be wrong!

Just over €1300. Basically I paid for the zappi and the grant paid for the installation, harvi and other parts.

asimp11

Don't bother with load management, just have your electrician do a Cert 2 and then the ESB will upgrade your supply to 80Amp 16Kva. You will need this anyway in a few years time to plug in your home assistant robot!

The ESB desperately need this extra/off peak business since we all switched to LED lighting.