Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

Alkers

If you move house can you get the grant again with the same car?

Gumbo

Alkers wrote: »

If you move house can you get the grant again with the same car?

Yes. I’ve done it.
The restriction is the MPRN. So leave the old charger in place as the new bone owner cannot avail of the rent in the future.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

We don't have to do warranty revisits on the overwhelming majority of jobs obviously. What was worse was that the faulty component wasn't even supplied by us but by the customer's energy provider so we really should have invoiced for it.

Sounds like you have a pretty bad deal with the manufacturer who's using you to service the warranty, seems a bit unfair for your customers to pay extra for the service to the manufacturer.

I've seen other trades where the warranty only covers labour for the first 12 months, after 12 months the parts are covered but the labour isn't.

lukas8888

Gumbo wrote: »

Yes. I’ve done it.
The restriction is the MPRN. So leave the old charger in place as the new bone owner cannot avail of the rent in the future.

I thought you would also need the car registered in some other persons name,in other words you can not avail of grant twice irrespective of MPRN.

Cyrus

lukas8888 wrote: »

I thought you would also need the car registered in some other persons name,in other words you can not avail of grant twice irrespective of MPRN.

i dont think so, as long as the car is registered to the address of the MRPN its grand.

BTW when you get the taycan would you start a thread on it in the ev forum? itll be that or the Etron gt for me next (currently have the etron SUV)

cheers

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

Sounds like you have a pretty bad deal with the manufacturer who's using you to service the warranty, seems a bit unfair for your customers to pay extra for the service to the manufacturer.

I've seen other trades where the warranty only covers labour for the first 12 months, after 12 months the parts are covered but the labour isn't.

The problem is that EVSE installations done under the OLEV grant require three years' warranty to be provided on the equipment. For this reason it's likely that we will have to refuse to fit an EVSE not supplied by us where the customer is availing of the OLEV grant.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

The problem is that EVSE installations done under the OLEV grant require three years' warranty to be provided on the equipment. For this reason it's likely that we will have to refuse to fit an EVSE not supplied by us where the customer is availing of the OLEV grant.

Is that an equipment warranty or an installation warranty? Still seems like your customers are getting a bum deal because of the costs to you of providing warranty labour services. Would be interesting to see how it differs in the 26.

lukas8888

Cyrus wrote: »

i dont think so, as long as the car is registered to the address of the MRPN its grand.

BTW when you get the taycan would you start a thread on it in the ev forum? itll be that or the Etron gt for me next (currently have the etron SUV)

cheers

Will do,
Ordered two weeks ago,will probably not arrive until June so i will wait until July
to take it for new reg plate.

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

Is that an equipment warranty or an installation warranty? Still seems like your customers are getting a bum deal because of the costs to you of providing warranty labour services. Would be interesting to see how it differs in the 26.

Both parts and labour. It doesn't mean that anyone's getting a "bum deal" - markup is standard practice. I don't believe that SEAI requires a similar warranty in the 26-Counties as you don't register with them and the customer gets the payment. OLEV pay the installer directly on the other hand and require them to be registered for EVHS (Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme) and/or WCS (Workplace Charging Scheme) to offer the grants. We are registered for both EVHS and WCS and typically have to wait around six months for the grant payment to be made. We aren't allowed to invoice for the grant amount before being paid either under OLEV rules.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

Both parts and labour. It doesn't mean that anyone's getting a "bum deal" - markup is standard practice. I don't believe that SEAI requires a similar warranty in the 26-Counties as you don't register with them and the customer gets the payment. OLEV pay the installer directly on the other hand and require them to be registered for EVHS (Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme) and/or WCS (Workplace Charging Scheme) to offer the grants. We are registered for both EVHS and WCS and typically have to wait around six months for the grant payment to be made. We aren't allowed to invoice for the grant amount before being paid either under OLEV rules.

You've said yourself that you have to mark up parts significantly to to cover the cost of warranty repairs due to manufacturers not covering the travel and labour costs incurred.
If an installation in Ireland only covers the parts warranty and not installation costs then it stands to reason, that you don't need to significantly mark up the parts to cover those costs.

I'd rather pay a fair price and pay warranty labour costs 12 months after the install, than see every customer pay elevated costs to cover the rare eventuality that there may be a warranty repair required. It's just a different way of doing business.

Gumbo

lukas8888 wrote: »

I thought you would also need the car registered in some other persons name,in other words you can not avail of grant twice irrespective of MPRN.

Nope. Car can be in same name.
The big thing SEAI look at is the MPRN matches the address on the application form and in turn matches the address on the VLC.

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

You've said yourself that you have to mark up parts significantly to to cover the cost of warranty repairs due to manufacturers not covering the travel and labour costs incurred.
If an installation in Ireland only covers the parts warranty and not installation costs then it stands to reason, that you don't need to significantly mark up the parts to cover those costs.

I'd rather pay a fair price and pay warranty labour costs 12 months after the install, than see every customer pay elevated costs to cover the rare eventuality that there may be a warranty repair required. It's just a different way of doing business.

I simply stated that one reason why a markup is required is for warranty returns. Other reasons include specifying; sourcing; storing etc. The fact is that every business must sell for more than it buys. That is a simple fact of business. As such marking up goods is non-negotiable, and we don't as a rule entertain fitting customer-supplied products as liability issues are less clear. They can also frequently purchase crap which takes longer to fit, or is inappropriate for the job at hand. Other times they supply the wrong materials and you're left waiting on them to return them and get the right things. It just doesn't work for us, and for most contractors.

TitianGerm

Risteard81 wrote: »

I simply stated that one reason why a markup is required is for warranty returns. Other reasons include specifying; sourcing; storing etc. The fact is that every business must sell for more than it buys. That is a simple fact of business. As such marking up goods is non-negotiable, and we don't as a rule entertain fitting customer-supplied products as liability issues are less clear. They can also frequently purchase crap which takes longer to fit, or is inappropriate for the job at hand. Other times they supply the wrong materials and you're left waiting on them to return them and get the right things. It just doesn't work for us, and for most contractors.

As a rough idea how often do you think a part fails that you have to provide a replacement under warranty? I assume if it's an issue with a part used you return it to the supplier for a refund/replacement/credit on your trade account.

Risteard81

TitianGerm wrote: »

As a rough idea how often do you think a part fails that you have to provide a replacement under warranty? I assume if it's an issue with a part used you return it to the supplier for a refund/replacement/credit on your trade account.

Again, you miss the fact that whilst the part will be replaced or a credit note issued, my time and Diesel etc. for replacing it are not covered.

As for how often, obviously not terribly often as we only source good quality materials. That said, it happens from time to time. One downlight failed recently at a customer's premises out of a fair few installed. We still had to go and replace it and return it to the wholesaler for a credit note. This obviously used up a fair bit of time which we will not be compensated for. And we had to fit this into an already hectic schedule, as it is not our policy to keep customers waiting unduly with warranty issues.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

I simply stated that one reason why a markup is required is for warranty returns.

We're not arguing that you can't mark up parts, but when you make claims that a part that can be found for €20 is justifiably billed at many multiples of €25 it comes across as taking advantage, and may explain why we see such variance in pricing between suppliers.

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

We're not arguing that you can't mark up parts, but when you make claims that a part that can be found for €20 is justifiably billed at many multiples of €25 it comes across as taking advantage, and may explain why we see such variance in pricing between suppliers.

I never mentioned what I mark parts up by.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

A Type B RCD required for many units is many multiples of 25 Euro. And these are the industry standard standard install rates. I never mentioned what I charge.

The Type B RCBO fitted by the registered electrician who did my install can be sourced for less than €20 ex VAT.
That quote is from you telling another poster that his figure of €25 for the same was incorrect.

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

The Type B RCBO fitted by the registered electrician who did my install can be sourced for less than €20 ex VAT.
That quote is from you telling another poster that his figure of €25 for the same was incorrect.

That just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

Type B has different meanings within the context of MCB and RCD characteristics.

The overcurrent characteristic of the RCBO might be Type B, but this will either be a Type AC or Type A RCD. (Probably Type AC.)

I have never come across a Type B RCD in the format of an RCBO - only an RCCB. These cost literally hundreds each.

TitianGerm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Again, you miss the fact that whilst the part will be replaced or a credit note issued, my time and Diesel etc. for replacing it are not covered.

As for how often, obviously not terribly often as we only source good quality materials. That said, it happens from time to time. One downlight failed recently at a customer's premises out of a fair few installed. We still had to go and replace it and return it to the wholesaler for a credit note. This obviously used up a fair bit of time which we will not be compensated for. And we had to fit this into an already hectic schedule, as it is not our policy to keep customers waiting unduly with warranty issues.

So if the part doesn't fail that often what are we talking about? 1% of all installs have to have a return visit? If it was me I'd look at my turnover, profit and invoice numbers in the prior year to get an estimate of warranty repairs which can be expected the following year.

Say you're making €70k in profit on €400k turnover over 500 invoices for example would it not be appropriate to allow 1% of that €70k spread over every job which would mean an additional €1.40 on each job to cover those warranty repairs?

Also don't tell me you go to the wholesalers with every faulty unit as soon as you replace them? I've plenty of family members in different trades and they never go back for a credit note when they've one item and wait until they're picking parts for the next job.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

That just shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

Type B has different meanings within the context of MCB and RCD characteristics.

The overcurrent characteristic of the RCBO might be Type B, but this will either be a Type AC or Type A RCD. (Probably Type AC.)

I have never come across a Type B RCD in the format of an RCBO - only an RCCB. These cost literally hundreds each.

I've not claimed to know what I'm talking about, but I am capable of looking up part numbers and seeing how much they are listed for. Are you now going to claim other installers are installing the wrong equipment to justify your elevated prices?

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I've not claimed to know what I'm talking about, but I am capable of looking up part numbers and seeing how much they are listed for. Are you now going to claim other installers are installing the wrong equipment to justify your elevated prices?

As an example here's a list of 40A Type B RCBO's from a reputable supplier.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024#category=cat7230024&amprating=40_a&curvetype=type_b&sort_by=-price, as you can see a range from £11.99 to £149.99, with all but one being under £37.39.

Maybe give us the part number of the RCBO that you fit to back up your statement?

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

As an example here's a list of 40A Type B RCBO's from a reputable supplier.
https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/rcbos/cat7230024#category=cat7230024&amprating=40_a&curvetype=type_b&sort_by=-price, as you can see a range from £11.99 to £149.99, with all but one being under £37.39.

Maybe give us the part number of the RCBO that you fit to back up your statement?

They are Type AC RCDs - NOT Type B!

Type B is just the overcurrent characteristic of the MCB element of those.

liamog

So looking into it, it appears the decision between an RCBO that has a relatively cheap Type A or the expensive Type B is driven by whether the charger had inbuilt DC leakage.

For instance the EO Mini datasheet specifically calls out that it does not require a Type B RCD, datasheet from here https://www.eocharging.com/resource-centre-products/eo-mini

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b96995789c172d9106f1574/t/5f8089c54f034713096475ea/1602259397832/EO+Mini+Data+Sheet+%5BUK+%26+Ireland%5D.pdf

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

So looking into it, it appears the decision between an RCBO that has a relatively cheap Type A or the expensive Type B is driven by whether the charger had inbuilt DC leakage.

For instance the EO Mini datasheet specifically calls out that it does not require a Type B RCD, datasheet from here https://www.eocharging.com/resource-centre-products/eo-mini

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b96995789c172d9106f1574/t/5f8089c54f034713096475ea/1602259397832/EO+Mini+Data+Sheet+%5BUK+%26+Ireland%5D.pdf

Yes, but many EVSEs don't have the 6mA DC leakage detection and disconnection (e.g. all Tesla Wall Connectors).

KCross

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, but many EVSEs don't have the 6mA DC leakage detection and disconnection (e.g. all Tesla Wall Connectors).

Thats a mandatory OLEV requirement in the UK but not required here (at least yet)... correct?

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

Yes, but many EVSEs don't have the 6mA DC leakage detection and disconnection (e.g. all Tesla Wall Connectors).

From a post on the Tesla Motors Club, it looks like Tesla are the laggards here, and that most have now been updated to account for the requirement.

The Zappi, which seems to be one of the most popular charge points has a built in Type A RCD and 6mA DC protection, so doesn't even need the cheaper Type A RCD (https://myenergi.com/product/zappi/#product-specs).

Generally I recommend EO Mini's or Zappi's, good to know I've been saving people a few bob on the electrical equipment too.

Risteard81

KCross wrote: »

Thats a mandatory OLEV requirement in the UK but not required here (at least yet)... correct?

Nothing to do with OLEV - it's a requirement of the Wiring Regulations.

It has also been a requirement of the Wiring Rules here for a number of years since Amendment 3 to ET101:2008 (Fourth Edition) was published. It is also a requirement of I.S. 10101:2020 (Fifth Edition).

Risteard81

liamog wrote: »

From a post on the Tesla Motors Club, it looks like Tesla are the laggards here, and that most have now been updated to account for the requirement.

The Zappi, which seems to be one of the most popular charge points has a built in Type A RCD and 6mA DC protection, so doesn't even need the cheaper Type A RCD (https://myenergi.com/product/zappi/#product-specs).

Generally I recommend EO Mini's or Zappi's, good to know I've been saving people a few bob on the electrical equipment too.

Not all Minis sold here have DC leakage protection. All sold in the UK do, however.

liamog

Risteard81 wrote: »

Not all Minis sold here have DC leakage protection. All sold in the UK do, however.

Hopefully all that mark up you use for sourcing services can go into sourcing the updated units to save money on the RCD requirement

liamog

KCross wrote: »

Thats a mandatory OLEV requirement in the UK but not required here (at least yet)... correct?

Looks like it was due to an update to the IEC standard IEC 61851-1:2017 which stated that EV supply equipment requires

• RCD Type B or;
• A Type A RCD and appropriate equipment that ensures the disconnection of the supply in case of DC fault current above 6mA

https://www.evnex.com/articles/ev-charging-and-type-b-rcds

Probably explains why my installation has the €20 part, as it was installed in 2017.