Random EV thoughts.....

KCross · 05-12-2019 4:07pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Interesting.

Also interesting is that we are at 1/3 renewable for MTD

Our yearly average for renewable is about 30% for a few years now.
They want to double that in the decade ahead!

Water John · 05-12-2019 5:55pm

A study in the UK out today, says it will need storage of 30GW which is 30% of peak demand when the system becomes carbon neutral. UK has 3GW at present.

Should be need for 2GW here, maybe a good bit more.

BTW as I suggested before, it says the cheapest electricity will be during day time, solar and wind combined, and biggest demand in the evening.

September1 · 05-12-2019 6:00pm

Water John wrote: »

A study in the UK out today, says it will need storage of 30GW which is 30% of peak demand when the system becomes carbon neutral. UK has 3GW at present.

Should be need for 2GW here, maybe a good bit more.

I think UK has nuclear power, which is carbon neutral and solves may problems with renewable sources.

redcup342 · 05-12-2019 10:11pm

A Company in Dusseldorf is rolling these out in Germany to cover areas where rapid charging could be useful but a bit investment is needed.

https://www.uniper.energy/services/move-by-uniper

Would be handy in parts of Ireland where the Infrastructure isn't there or to cover extra demand while they build new charging stations.

McGiver · 06-12-2019 12:46am

jprboy wrote:

Yep, proposed pumped hydro 360 MW in old mining site in Silvermines, Co. Tipp

What's the efficiency of this thing? And EROEI?

Water John · 06-12-2019 1:22am

Pumped storage has an 80% efficiency. The pump becomes the generator, same as an EV.

KCross · 06-12-2019 1:02pm

Water John wrote: »

Pumped storage has an 80% efficiency. The pump becomes the generator, same as an EV.

Are you sure?

I watched a documentary on it recently and they said the overall efficiency was pretty poor but it doesnt matter because the energy is "free" (i.e. renewables that would be otherwise curtailed) so its a net gain.... i thought the efficiency was something like 30% (or in that ball park anyway).

Obviously burning coal to run pumped hydro would be terrible but thats not the idea of it. Its there to simply capture some of the otherwise wasted renewable energy.

air · 06-12-2019 1:26pm

30%?
Turlough hill would be steaming like a volcanic vent after a few cycles

Edit It's 75% round trip according to it's wikipedia page. Not bad for an old installation

KCross · 06-12-2019 1:32pm

air wrote: »

30%?
Turlough hill would be steaming like a volcanic vent after a few cycles

I miss your point.
What do you mean?

air · 06-12-2019 1:39pm

KCross wrote: »

I miss your point.
What do you mean?

I meant that 30% would be ridiculously low efficiency.
The losses would generally be absorbed by the water primarily so you'd have ~100MW of heat being dissipated into it constantly if the true efficiency was 30%

06-12-2019 1:46pm

air wrote: »

I meant that 30% would be ridiculously low efficiency.
The losses would generally be absorbed by the water primarily so you'd have ~100MW of heat being dissipated into it constantly if the true efficiency was 30%

Would even be a bit higher as the plant is capable for up to 1.7 GWh of generation per cycle. You'd need to input upwards 5 GWh of power per 24h with 30 percent efficiency. If somebody knows the water volume it would be quite easy to estimate the temperature gain per cycle.

Edit: Answering to myself. I'm also not a matemathician so could well made an error with my calculations (as often is):

Water mass of the Turlough hill is about is 2.3x10^12 g. The water specific heat is 4.186 J/g*K and the power input of new new improved efficiency of 75% is 2.3 GWh which is 2.3*10^9 Wh that converts to 8.3*10^12 J.

This amount of energy increases the water temperature of Turlough hill reservoir by approx. 1'C per cycle which appears to be well within the cooling capacity of the natural radiation and convection etc. Even if the efficiency was only 30% the heating would only be about 1.8 degress which is way less than I thought and would not result Turlough hill turning into a cheap copy of a volcano anytime soon.

KCross · 06-12-2019 1:55pm

air wrote: »

I meant that 30% would be ridiculously low efficiency.
The losses would generally be absorbed by the water primarily so you'd have ~100MW of heat being dissipated into it constantly if the true efficiency was 30%

Fair enough. Must have remembered that wrong then.

Do you know what efficiency Turlough hill runs at?

EDIT: I see your edit.... 75%.

air · 06-12-2019 2:07pm

samih wrote: »

Would even be a bit higher as the plant is capable for up to 1.7 GWh of generation per cycle. You'd need to input upwards 5 GWh of power per 24h with 30 percent efficiency. If somebody knows the water volume it would be quite easy to estimate the temperature gain per cycle.

Easy calculate the flow rate with the nominal power (294MW), head (549m) & quoted one way efficiency (86.6%)

In any case it appears to be huge (ballpark 63m3/s) and the temperature rise is less than I expected at < 1 degree C each way even at the 30% round trip efficiency based on a back of the envelope analysis.

06-12-2019 2:24pm

More interesting maths for a slow Friday: The daily generating capacity of Turlough hill would allow ELM327 to fully charge his 90 kWh Model S 17000 times assuming efficiency of 90 percent. The net energy gain of 1.5 GWh would allow 6 million kilometers of driving per day at 250 Wh/km.

air · 06-12-2019 2:40pm

On a similar note I think I saw an ad for the Audi Etron with a wind turbine in the background.
They quoted 4 revolutions for a full charge or something similar, thought it was a nice touch!

Silent Running · 06-12-2019 2:42pm

I remember, as a lad, standing in the empty upper lake before it was commissioned. My father was one of the engineers on the project. An impressive bit of kit for the time.

Giving away my age here.

06-12-2019 2:49pm

Silent Running wrote: »

I remember, as a lad, standing in the empty upper lake before it was commissioned. My father was one of the engineers on the project. An impressive bit of kit for the time.

Giving away my age here.

The upper reservoir is still an impressive sight today. Back in 90's when I first arrived to Ireland the fence around it was in bad repair and I might have climbed up to take a look at it. It must have been really cool to work in a big infrastructure project like that. I'm still kicking myself as I missed the open days there last year.

Silent Running · 06-12-2019 3:00pm

samih wrote: »

The upper reservoir is still an impressive sight today. Back in 90's when I first arrived to Ireland the fence around it was in bad repair and I might have climbed up to take a look at it. It must have been really cool to work in a big infrastructure project like that. I'm still kicking myself as I missed the open days there last year.

Yeah, my father was involved in some great projects in his time. I remember he did a lot of work on the North/South electricity inter-connector, as well as the second Poolbeg stack.

unkel · 06-12-2019 3:32pm

air wrote: »

On a similar note I think I saw an ad for the Audi Etron with a wind turbine in the background.
They quoted 4 revolutions for a full charge or something similar, thought it was a nice touch!

Nice touch, let's do a reality check with some more slow Friday afternoon maths:

I didn't see the ad, but let's presume it's about the biggest off shore windmills that are currently producing, 10MW

These produce 10MWh/60 minutes = 167kWh/minute

With about 10 revs per minute, that's nearly 17kWh per rev, so about 67kWh per 4 revs, so yeah, the ad is pretty much on the ball

(if the wind generator in the ad was smaller, their claim would be exaggerated)

Dardania · 06-12-2019 3:45pm

unkel wrote: »

Nice touch, let's do a reality check with some more slow Friday afternoon maths:

I didn't see the ad, but let's presume it's about the biggest off shore windmills that are currently producing, 10MW

These produce 10MWh/60 minutes = 167kWh/minute

With about 10 revs per minute, that's nearly 17kWh per rev, so about 67kWh per 4 revs, so yeah, the ad is pretty much on the ball

(if the wind generator in the ad was smaller, their claim would be exaggerated)

*20-80%

06-12-2019 7:03pm

air wrote: »

Easy calculate the flow rate with the nominal power (294MW), head (549m) & quoted one way efficiency (86.6%)

In any case it appears to be huge (ballpark 63m3/s) and the temperature rise is less than I expected at < 1 degree C each way even at the 30% round trip efficiency based on a back of the envelope analysis.

Yeah, water is pretty damn expensive to heat up.

McGiver · 06-12-2019 7:39pm

Water John wrote:

Pumped storage has an 80% efficiency. The pump becomes the generator, same as an EV.

This is very unlikely. You have to use electricity to pump it against the gravity and then let it flow down and generate electricity via a standard hydro turbine, which is 90% efficient (generated by simple gravity action and kinetic energy of the falling water mass transformed into kinetic energy of the turbine which then is converted to an electromagnetic energy). Means you lose half of the energy it by durst investing energy in pumping the water against the gravity to a higher level. So 45% at best I'd say.

MJohnston · 06-12-2019 7:54pm

McGiver wrote: »

This is very unlikely. You have to use electricity to pump it against the gravity and then let it flow down and generate electricity via a standard hydro turbine, which is 90% efficient (generated by simple gravity action and kinetic energy of the falling water mass transformed into kinetic energy of the turbine which then is converted to an electromagnetic energy). Means you lose half of the energy it by durst investing energy in pumping the water against the gravity to a higher level. So 45% at best I'd say.

Why are you making guesses when it's a well researched technology? https://setis.ec.europa.eu/publications/setis-magazine/power-storage/europe-experience-pumped-storage-boom

Water John · 06-12-2019 8:46pm

Large turbines turn 15/18 revs/min. So car charged in 15 sec of generation.
Hydro has the big adv of a quick startup, about 12 sec. Great for unexpected drops. Battery would be much quicker.

air · 06-12-2019 9:09pm

Water John wrote: »

Large turbines turn 15/18 revs/min. So car charged in 15 sec of generation.
Hydro has the big adv of a quick startup, about 12 sec. Great for unexpected drops. Battery would be much quicker.

That's a rather broad generalisation.
The rotational speed is inversely proportional to the blade radius to maintain the approprite tip speed ratio and absolute tip speed within allowable limits.
So the bigger the turbine the slower it turns in general.

McGiver · 07-12-2019 9:13am

MJohnston wrote:

Why are you making guesses when it's a well researched technology?

Ah sure look it, didn't want to Google.
70 to 80% is impressive. Losing 25% of the excess energy isn't bad.

MJohnston · 07-12-2019 10:29am

There's nothing more frustrating than the stingy length of the ecars charging cables.

Okay, there's one thing more frustrating - on a long trip, arriving to a service station FC that was free all morning, then missing it by literally 5 minutes.

MJohnston · 07-12-2019 10:54am

WTF - finally got the FCP, was on it 2 and a half minutes, left to grab a coffee and someone in a Nissan has managed to stop my charge??

Mickeroo · 07-12-2019 11:02am

MJohnston wrote: »

WTF - finally got the FCP, was on it 2 and a half minutes, left to grab a coffee and someone in a Nissan has managed to stop my charge??

Known issue where scanning your card stops the other charge.

MJohnston · 07-12-2019 11:16am

By known issue, do you mean it happens occasionally? I scanned mine to get the SCP to work and it didn’t disconnect this other car?

MJohnston · 07-12-2019 11:19am

Also - how on earth can that be a known issue for more than a week? ESB need to hire a software developer to fix it asap

Mickeroo · 07-12-2019 11:23am

MJohnston wrote: »

By known issue, do you mean it happens occasionally? I scanned mine to get the SCP to work and it didn’t disconnect this other car?

MJohnston wrote: »

Also - how on earth can that be a known issue for more than a week? ESB need to hire a software developer to fix it asap

It's been a known issue for the guts of a year I think, have heard plenty reports of chademo users knocking off CCS charging. They guy probably knew what he was doing tbh.

What you mean SCP? I thought you were at an FCP?

MJohnston · 07-12-2019 11:26am

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's been a known issue for the guts of a year I think, have heard plenty reports of chademo users knocking off CCS charging. They guy probably knew what he was doing tbh.

What you mean SCP? I thought you were at an FCP?

I plugged in the CCS, went inside for a pitstop, checked the BMW app and saw "not charging", checked ESB and it said it had stopped charging after 2 minutes. So I went outside, Nissan driver was gone but hooked up to Chademo and charging. So then I unplugged, scanned to activate the AC charging, and plugged in. I suppose that's still Fast AC and a FCP.

Mickeroo · 07-12-2019 11:30am

MJohnston wrote: »

I plugged in the CCS, went inside for a pitstop, checked the BMW app and saw "not charging", checked ESB and it said it had stopped charging after 2 minutes. So I went outside, Nissan driver was gone but hooked up to Chademo and charging. So then I unplugged, scanned to activate the AC charging, and plugged in. I suppose that's still Fast AC and a FCP.

Sorry I get you now, Fast AC won't stop the CCS or Chademo because you can use it alongside no problem. Only one of CCS or Chademo can be used at any time though,but sometimes activating the chademo wheil the CCS is in use will stop the CCS.

MJohnston · 07-12-2019 11:33am

Mickeroo wrote: »

Sorry I get you now, Fast AC won't stop the CCS or Chademo because you can use it alongside no problem. Only one of CCS or Chademo can be used at any time though,but sometimes activating the chademo wheil the CCS is in use will stop the CCS.

To me, as a software guy, that seems like the kind of critical bug you'd drop everything to fix. But I'm guessing ESB just bought some off the shelf charger with its own built in software that they have no intention of modifying.

I'll definitely be using the Ionity at Stamullen on the way home anyway, no pesky Nissans there.

KCross · 07-12-2019 12:24pm

MJohnston wrote: »

So then I unplugged, scanned to activate the AC charging, and plugged in. I suppose that's still Fast AC and a FCP.

No, all you'll get from that is 7kW, the same as your home charge point... not fast at all.

McGiver · 07-12-2019 2:04pm

MJohnston wrote:

I plugged in the CCS, went inside for a pitstop, checked the BMW app and saw "not charging", checked ESB and it said it had stopped charging after 2 minutes. So I went outside, Nissan driver was gone but hooked up to Chademo and charging. So then I unplugged, scanned to activate the AC charging, and plugged in. I suppose that's still Fast AC and a FCP.

Hang on, so you were connected to the CCS and the other fella just plugged in Chademo while you were charging and that terminated your session?

air · 07-12-2019 2:33pm

air wrote: »

That's a rather broad generalisation.
The rotational speed is inversely proportional to the blade radius to maintain the approprite tip speed ratio and absolute tip speed within allowable limits.
So the bigger the turbine the slower it turns in general.

In fact 10MW ones run as slow as 2rpm!

innrain · 07-12-2019 9:28pm

McGiver wrote: »

Hang on, so you were connected to the CCS and the other fella just plugged in Chademo while you were charging and that terminated your session?

Yes it happens. I think you have to plug the Chademo and then scan your card. At least every time it happened to me the chademo user first plugged in their car and then tried to see if their option is available. If I would get out to say that it does not work they would swear that last time they charged along with another CCS car.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with the software more with ground sensing.

liamog · 08-12-2019 3:03pm

innrain wrote: »

Yes it happens. I think you have to plug the Chademo and then scan your card. At least every time it happened to me the chademo user first plugged in their car and then tried to see if their option is available. If I would get out to say that it does not work they would swear that last time they charged along with another CCS car.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with the software more with ground sensing.

In fairness to them, it does appear to work. The CCS car is charging, they plug in and CHAdeMO starts working. Most are probably ignorant to the fact they've just knocked off someone elses charge.

Water John · 08-12-2019 3:26pm

Just making sure the cars are fully charged with the storm coming.

Had a glitch with the Kona. The dash occasionally going blank. Had to get a software upgrade.

MJohnston · 08-12-2019 4:12pm

liamog wrote: »

In fairness to them, it does appear to work. The CCS car is charging, they plug in and CHAdeMO starts working. Most are probably ignorant to the fact they've just knocked off someone elses charge.

The problems will happen when there are 2 users ignorant to this issue - one already charging on CCS and then they get knocked off and they accuse the Chademo user of doing it on purpose. I knew enough to know that the Nissan was likely the cause but not necessarily to blame, if that makes sense.

Of course, if there had been two FCPs at Castlebellingham North, there would not have been this issue (and of course I was sat there on AC staring at 6 or 8 empty Superchargers!)

charlieIRL · 08-12-2019 7:57pm

That wind is tough on range today. I was driving eastwards earlier and was getting 6kms/kWh but this evening coming home heading west....down to 3.9kms/kWh. Was driving same speed but 2 less people coming home.

Got home with 14kms left!!!

tom_tarbucket · 08-12-2019 11:18pm

charlieIRL wrote: »

That wind is tough on range today. I was driving eastwards earlier and was getting 6kms/kWh but this evening coming home heading west....down to 3.9kms/kWh. Was driving same speed but 2 less people coming home.

Got home with 14kms left!!!

I hear ya. Did a journey today and would normally be 100 down to 70 %. Today was 100 down to 55%.

innrain · 08-12-2019 11:32pm

MJohnston wrote: »

The problems will happen when there are 2 users ignorant to this issue - one already charging on CCS and then they get knocked off and they accuse the Chademo user of doing it on purpose. I knew enough to know that the Nissan was likely the cause but not necessarily to blame, if that makes sense.

Of course, if there had been two FCPs at Castlebellingham North, there would not have been this issue (and of course I was sat there on AC staring at 6 or 8 empty Superchargers!)

I would not even touch the FCP if I see a Chademo car charging. I would try to asses how long it will take them to finish. With the new webapp I can see when they've started and if that's close to 45 mins I might wait. Does the Chademo user doing it on purpose? I don't care. To blame them for being selfish is like to blame those driving on the bus lane.

liamog · 09-12-2019 1:05am

innrain wrote: »

I would not even touch the FCP if I see a Chademo car charging. I would try to asses how long it will take them to finish. With the new webapp I can see when they've started and if that's close to 45 mins I might wait. Does the Chademo user doing it on purpose? I don't care. To blame them for being selfish is like to blame those driving on the bus lane.

If you are driving in the bus lane, then you are being a selfish person!
I suspect there may be one or two CHAdeMO users who've figured out the "trick" that you can force disconnect a CCS car. Most people are probably doing it accidentally, what's the saying? "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." In this case, it's more like ignorance than stupidity, but the point stands.

MJohnston · 09-12-2019 10:19am

innrain wrote: »

I would not even touch the FCP if I see a Chademo car charging. I would try to asses how long it will take them to finish. With the new webapp I can see when they've started and if that's close to 45 mins I might wait. Does the Chademo user doing it on purpose? I don't care. To blame them for being selfish is like to blame those driving on the bus lane.

What I meant is - I guessed there was probably some technical explanation for why the Nissan charging kicked me off, rather than it being the user who did it intentionally. So I didn't confront them about it.

But there's going to come a situation where someone gets kicked off of CCS by an unaware Chademo user, and a row will start.

Remarkable and saddening that this has been a bug for long enough that so many are aware of it though. Says a lot about ESB’s (lack of) commitment to a functioning charging network.

liamog · 09-12-2019 10:55am

MJohnston wrote: »

Remarkable and saddening that this has been a bug for long enough that so many are aware of it though. Says a lot about ESB’s (lack of) commitment to a functioning charging network.

[ConspiracyTheory]Maybe the lead engineer drives a Leaf[/ConspiracyTheory]

kanuseeme · 09-12-2019 11:36am

liamog wrote: »

[ConspiracyTheory]Maybe the lead engineer drives a Leaf[/ConspiracyTheory]

If your going to do a credible conspiracy theory, make it a team of engineers who live near all Rapid chargers and drive outlanders.

Dardania · 09-12-2019 11:54am

kanuseeme wrote: »

If your going to do a credible conspiracy theory, make it a team of engineers who live near all Rapid chargers and drive outlanders.

And half of the outlanders aren't the PHEV type - they just like the free parking

Random EV thoughts.....

Comments