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if we ever had a terrorist attack in ireland ??
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True, there's also a threat that the bees are going to die out in the next decade and we're going to starve.........
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141230-apocalypse-when
There'll be many, many, many more people killed on our roads in the next year than will be killed by terrorist action.
Put it this way.......if you are Al Qaeda's Director of Ops and you can get or radicalise a group this far west to attack a facility........and (this is crucial) get them the means to carry out that attack and put it in their hands........do you attack a regional airport in Ireland used as a trans-Atlantic stopover for troops or do do you attack certain USAF air bases that are home to aircraft and special forces that have actually operated in the ME - or put it another way, which of those attacks carries the most kudos among your 'audience?
I think your lookin at this on too large a scale. The threat of a lone wolf or small number of Muslims within the country here all ready is enough. Forget al Qaeda and it's director of ops. That's not the only threat that exists here.
The two lads that murdered lee rigby in London. Were they operation under orders from a director of ops. Two individuals who believe the bull**** calling of their Muslim brothers with a homemade device in a busy irish shopping center or an embassy is all it takes.0 -
Mackas_view wrote: »I think your lookin at this on too large a scale. The threat of a lone wolf or small number of Muslims within the country here all ready is enough. Forget al Qaeda and it's director of ops. That's not the only threat that exists here.
The two lads that murdered lee rigby in London. Were they operation under orders from a director of ops. Two individuals who believe the bull**** calling of their Muslim brothers with a homemade device in a busy irish shopping center or an embassy is all it takes.
Yes, and if you radicalised youth here which would be the best 'target' for them to attack?
What happened to that poor lad is a case in point - they could've picked anyone - a random individual, a police officer, even a judge or politician. They went for a soldier. As I said earlier in the thread, this is political violence carried out to make a point and send a message - embassies aside, there's no message to be sent by hitting a target here.0 -
Yes, and if you radicalised youth here which would be the best 'target' for them to attack?
What happened to that poor lad is a case in point - they could've picked anyone - a random individual, a police officer, even a judge or politician. They went for a soldier. As I said earlier in the thread, this is political violence carried out to make a point and send a message - embassies aside, there's no message to be sent by hitting a target here.
Yes I agree to an extent but the other side is small factions may feel there is a message to be sent.
Say god forbid they did attack hoping for an end result of ireland not allowing the planes refuel anymore. Where else would refuel them who else would put their nation in jeoprady.
A perfectly good motive for the type of people we are talking about IMO0 -
Mackas_view wrote: »Yes I agree to an extent but the other side is small factions may feel there is a message to be sent.
Say god forbid they did attack hoping for an end result of ireland not allowing the planes refuel anymore. Where else would refuel them who else would put their nation in jeoprady.
A perfectly good motive for the type of people we are talking about IMO
Aldergrove for a start.......or Prestwick........or Mildenhall. Or if it really came to it, they could just lighten the loads the aircraft carry and go all the way non-stop to Ramstein.
The use of Shannon is convenient, but it's not essential.0 -
Aldergrove for a start.......or Prestwick........or Mildenhall. Or if it really came to it, they could just lighten the loads the aircraft carry and go all the way non-stop to Ramstein.
The use of Shannon is convenient, but it's not essential.
I'm not so sure it would be so straight forward as that, it would obviously be subject to the extent of the carnage caused by an attack here.0 -
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That if another state rocked up of the coast of Dublin and wanted to invade, we couldn't stop them.
Likewise, if another state wanted to coerce us, then assuming they possessed the means it is unlikely we could resist without the assistance of other states.
I agree with a lot of what your saying, but I don't think this part is relevant. It's just part of the modern world we live in...countries are very interconnected. A lot of other countries have a large financial interest in Ireland's well-being. Everyone in the EU, naturally, and the US (with the world's most expensive military - many times over) all care very much about Ireland, because they care about themselves.
Ireland's ability to defend itself includes it's ability to get aid from it's allies. I can't imagine a scenario where someone could invade Ireland without a large military response from Ireland AND others.0 -
I would think ireland would be better prepared compared to other countries.
We live in a scary world0 -
Mackas_view wrote: »I'm not so sure it would be so straight forward as that, it would obviously be subject to the extent of the carnage caused by an attack here.
Not really, the second the Yanks decide it's more hassle than it's worth routing through here they'll send their aircraft elsewhere.
A Boeing 777er has a range of about 8,000 miles, and an A340 has a range of about 7,500 miles (both fully loaded).
East Coast USA to Shannon is about 3,200 miles - East Coast to Frankfurt is under 4,000 miles and East Coast to Kuwait is 6,500 miles.0 -
I agree with a lot of what your saying, but I don't think this part is relevant. It's just part of the modern world we live in...countries are very interconnected. A lot of other countries have a large financial interest in Ireland's well-being. Everyone in the EU, naturally, and the US (with the world's most expensive military - many times over) all care very much about Ireland, because they care about themselves.
Ireland's ability to defend itself includes it's ability to get aid from it's allies. I can't imagine a scenario where someone could invade Ireland without a large military response from Ireland AND others.
Well if you are involved in alliances and have allies who have agreed a mutual defence pact, are you not by definition completely incapable of being neutral?
Countries etc do have a lot invested here, so they could cone to our aid - but only because they'd be looking to protect their interests- would we get the same or any help if they had no interests here? They don't 'care' about Ireland, they care about what they have in Ireland.0 -
LuckyDude12 wrote: »dont even think about ireland going to war we'd get wiped out easily, we dont even have an army.. even the special forces wouldn't do f all, anyway we'd have to rely on maybe british/american troops if anything such chaotic happens
If Ireland was going to war in the morning we would be fitting in as part of WEU battle plan. We have 13,000 approx depmanent defence for troops trained on some of the best equipement available. I think the Dept of Defence has bought very few turkeys (EG SA80's , UK Battle drones, US military software, M-16 (originals), Abrahms tanks (originals)) over the years. That is the advantage of a small army trained on the best equipent with an intelligent population, you can train them fast.
The day Ireland goes to War will be a sad day indeed and God keep it far from us. I like that it is Neutral, that we are respected as neutral and that both business and politics recognises this. I would say if it came up in a referundum tomorrow morning when the scales would balance up we would lose more than we would gain like Switzerland.
Special forces arent in the front lines they are usually behind the enemy lines in a war providing intelligence and distracting from where the real war is like (Taking out scuds in Iraq, Gathering information on mainland Argentina and obsering Airforce bases. Harrasing German troops in rural France, destroying and disabling ships using limpet mines in harbour, providing training and acting as advisors to the Taliban and Mujahadeen in Afghanistan.) that sort of thing. Irish Special forces are working the whole time.... they just dont make front page stuff is all.0 -
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skooterblue2 wrote: »If Ireland was going to war in the morning we would be fitting in as part of WEU battle plan. We have 13,000 approx depmanent defence for troops trained on some of the best equipement available. I think the Dept of Defence has bought very few turkeys (EG SA80's , UK Battle drones, US military software, M-16 (originals), Abrahms tanks (originals)) over the years. That is the advantage of a small army trained on the best equipent with an intelligent population, you can train them fast.
The day Ireland goes to War will be a sad day indeed and God keep it far from us. I like that it is Neutral, that we are respected as neutral and that both business and politics recognises this. I would say if it came up in a referundum tomorrow morning when the scales would balance up we would lose more than we would gain like Switzerland.
Special forces arent in the front lines they are usually behind the enemy lines in a war providing intelligence and distracting from where the real war is like (Taking out scuds in Iraq, Gathering information on mainland Argentina and obsering Airforce bases. Harrasing German troops in rural France, destroying and disabling ships using limpet mines in harbour, providing training and acting as advisors to the Taliban and Mujahadeen in Afghanistan.) that sort of thing. Irish Special forces are working the whole time.... they just dont make front page stuff is all.
I don't understand your post, especially where it connects with a terrorist attack on Ireland. We have only a strength of 9500 for the Permanent Defence Forces add in an Garda Siochana strength of 13200, then we have a credible force for our population, not our geography.
As for purchasing errors, this happens everywhere and our Government are by no means exempt from this.
Special forces are special, but do nothing for state security. The best intelligence services are those we never hear of.0 -
I don't understand your post, especially where it connects with a terrorist attack on Ireland. We have only a strength of 9500 for the Permanent Defence Forces add in an Garda Siochana strength of 13200, then we have a credible force for our population, not our geography.
As for purchasing errors, this happens everywhere and our Government are by no means exempt from this.
Special forces are special, but do nothing for state security. The best intelligence services are those we never hear of.
My post in response to someone else comment on our defense forces less than 10,000 over all. Cripes is the Defense forces shrinking that fast? 20 years ago we had a Reserve defence forces of 10-12,000.
I would like you to point out ANY Serious purchasing errors made by the DoD (that awful toilet paper in the bathrooms is already declared ).0 -
if we did ever have an attack/hostage situation here in Ireland I would be confident that we have the people with the required skills and ability to deal with it. we might have a small army but they are highly skilled individuals and our special forces I would think would be more than up to the task. be grand.
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On Saturday, September 21, 2013, Jack Conroy (a pseudonym), age 37, a veteran sergeant of the Irish Army Ranger Wing, British paratroopers, and an Irish Garda police reservist, was serving as a security consultant for an oil company in Nairobi, Kenya, with his immediate supervisor, Mark Weston (also a pseudonym), an ex-British Special Air Service (SAS) commando officer, when a colleague sent him a chilling text message at 12:41 p.m.: “Terrorist attack underway in Westgate Mall.” At the nearby, upscale shopping mall, an estimated 10–20 Islamist, al-Qa’ida-linked, al-Shabaab terrorists wearing combat fatigues and carrying AK-47 assault rifles began a fierce, shooting rampage that ultimately killed 67 people and wounded 175 more, including 11 Kenyan soldiers, during a horrific four-day siege.
Conroy and Weston arrived on-scene, unarmed, at 1:06 p.m., having already confirmed that an oil company executive and his wife were trapped on the embattled mall’s second floor, inside the Onami sushi restaurant. There was total chaos among Kenyan security forces, no police cordon, and no proper command and control as grenades exploded and full-automatic gunfire echoed from inside the mall, yet Jack and Mark bravely entered through a car park gateway. Four shots were fired directly toward them, and they momentarily withdrew to locate another entrance point. They soon found 150–200 staff members and mall employees taking cover behind some trucks, and guided them to safety. “There were police there, but they were doing nothing,” Jack later reported. “We took control of the situation and started sending the people in pairs down the service road to safety.”
Then, they received a text message from the trapped executive, stating: “Shooting inside (restaurant) now,” and realized that their corporate client was in grave danger. They asked the huddled Kenyan soldiers and police for weapons, but were refused. Four policemen accompanied Jack and Mark up to the second floor through an emergency stairwell as the gunfire and exploding grenades continued to wreak havoc. A children’s cooking competition was interrupted by blazing fusillades of AK-47 fire, and Jack said that, “It was like walking through the gates of hell. There were bodies littered everywhere.” They soon came upon another 150 panic-stricken people and guided them downstairs to safety under hostile fire
At 1:33 p.m., an Asian civilian handed Jack a semi-automatic pistol with 15 rounds in its magazine. Jack located Mark and told him, “I’m armed and I am going to Onami for the clients.” Conroy and a policemen then entered the main shopping mall area, drawing terrorist fire for a third time, and Jack was finally able to return the gunfire. As they reached the Onami restaurant, two armed terrorists emerged, and he fired three shots in their direction. One al-Shabaab fighter was killed, and the other ran away. Conroy immediately rescued his two clients, only to discover that a further 100 people were hiding in the restaurant’s storeroom; he organized their safe movement to a café where Mark had established an escape route to freedom.
Another gunman fired a quick burst at Jack, who instantly replied with four rounds in two double-taps, which “eliminated the danger,” according to an eyewitness. Thus, within the span of only 49 minutes, Conroy and Weston arrived at the besieged mall, took control, led at least 500 dazed hostages to safety, rescued their clients (who were quickly driven away), and neutralized two or more terrorists in the harrowing process. As if this extraordinary heroism under fire wasn’t enough, however, the two daring men went back inside again to retrieve the wounded, and spent the next three hours using their military paramedic skills to treat at least 10 gunshot and shrapnel victims, mostly children. They were both photographed by the press during this period, but their true identities are being kept secret to avoid retaliation by Muslim extremists.
Jack told one reporter, “I am not a hero, not at all. I just used the years of training I got as a member of the unit (the Irish Army Ranger Wing) to rescue two of my clients.” The bloody bodies of four dead terrorists were discovered by police after the end of the siege, indicating that Conroy and Weston may have been even more successful than they realized, and their exceptional valor, honor and skill were unparalleled. While a great deal has been written about the legendary British SAS, much less is known about Jack’s former unit from the Irish midlands.
http://www.sofmag.com/irish-elite-special-ops-%E2%80%9Cwarriors%E2%80%9D-army-ranger-wing0 -
Enda Kenny would get super ripped in a Rocky style montage -apply combat facepaint and a bandana - and then take off from an attack helicopter that emerges Thunderbirds stlye from Skellig Michael. He'd drop down from the chopper and immediately decapitate the the terrorists with a hurley. In an act of defiance and freedom, our leader would then solo the entire length of Croke Park with the severed head of the chief terrorist and knock it over for a point from the 45. On his way to the Aras to receive acclaim from el Presedente he stops to cut the ribbon on a new Supervalu and indulges in a 99 ice cream cone. He turns to the press gang and quips 'These radical Muslamics need to COOL down or I'll FLAKE them'. The baying crowd crease themselves in laughter and adoration. Mary Kennedy from Nationwide emerges from the melee and kisses our hero passionately on the lips. Enda takes Gaybo's Harley keys and himself and Mary drive off into the Dublin sunset....
*Enda Kenny awakes from his dream confused and realises his y-fronts are all sticky, he sighs as he remembers he has to visit a Donegal creamery in the morning*0 -
skooterblue2 wrote: »My post in response to someone else comment on our defense forces less than 10,000 over all. Cripes is the Defense forces shrinking that fast? 20 years ago we had a Reserve defence forces of 10-12,000.
I would like you to point out ANY Serious purchasing errors made by the DoD (that awful toilet paper in the bathrooms is already declared ).
The following might shed some light, MOWAGs (too expensive to maintain and the armour on them is cracking despite being told not to put that much on the vehicles (link)), the new sight for the steyr is not going smothly, and the Mitsubishi pajeros and Ford Rangers are not fit for purpose.0 -
Sure those terrorists from all those foreign countries wouldn't be able to buy much explosives or guns with what they get on the direct provision scheme! €19 a week for fags and extras doesn't buy many blocks of c4 or ak47s.0
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Enda Kenny would get super ripped in a Rocky style montage -apply combat facepaint and a bandana - and then take off from an attack helicopter that emerges Thunderbirds stlye from Skellig Michael. He'd drop down from the chopper and immediately decapitate the the terrorists with a hurley. In an act of defiance and freedom, our leader would then solo the entire length of Croke Park with the severed head of the chief terrorist and knock it over for a point from the 45. On his way to the Aras to receive acclaim from el Presedente he stops to cut the ribbon on a new Supervalu and indulges in a 99 ice cream cone. He turns to the press gang and quips 'These radical Muslamics need to COOL down or I'll FLAKE them'. The baying crowd crease themselves in laughter and adoration. Mary Kennedy from Nationwide emerges from the melee and kisses our hero passionately on the lips. Enda takes Gaybo's Harley keys and himself and Mary drive off into the Dublin sunset....
*Enda Kenny awakes from his dream confused and realises his y-fronts are all sticky, he sighs as he remembers he has to visit a Donegal creamery in the morning*
Nonsense there is a plan in place since the foundation of the State. Hitler asked DeV to mind a resurection machine(see wonder woman TV series). Dev being the crafty guy that he was (in Arthurian legend style) decided not to use this unless there was an extreme crisis in the state. This was hidden under neathe the Mullagh More site where it was recently re discovered by An Taisce.
Should the Country ever need heroes, should the country ever be in Grave danger or Perilous outcomes inevitable..... we should be able to resurrect the 1916 Rising leader ship (except for Collins, Dev wouldnt have liked it). This is this countrys Nucear Option. ...... and we are all waiting for one man to unlock the code and push the button Michael D Higgens President of Ireland, Leader of the little people and unoffical Spokesperson of Darby O 'Gill fan club0 -
Well if you are involved in alliances and have allies who have agreed a mutual defence pact, are you not by definition completely incapable of being neutral?
Countries etc do have a lot invested here, so they could cone to our aid - but only because they'd be looking to protect their interests- would we get the same or any help if they had no interests here? They don't 'care' about Ireland, they care about what they have in Ireland.
If there is a mutual defence pact (that you intend to honour) - no you would not be neutral. Using the US as an example, as far as I know, Ireland and the US *do not* have a mutual defence pact. If the US goes to war with North Korea - we can maintain our neutral status.
I'm not saying the US cares about Ireland from the goodness of their hearts. But they do have a large financial interest in Ireland and I would expect that they would provide support in the event of someone invading Ireland.
That doesn't mean we aren't neutral or are allied with the US. It means we have strong relations with one another and the US is very well known for securing it's interest abroad.0 -
The following might shed some light, MOWAGs (too expensive to maintain and the armour on them is cracking despite being told not to put that much on the vehicles (link)), the new sight for the steyr is not going smothly, and the Mitsubishi pajeros and Ford Rangers are not fit for purpose.
Well, I wouldn't go basing assessments of the state of our security preparedness on 6 year old reports from the Herald of all places (which was based on an original piece in the Sunday Times).
It was (and is sensationalist rubbish).
The MOWAGs get hammered - they're good kit and they're in demand - which probably indicates we didn't buy enough. At the time there was a problem sourcing parts and some vehicles were being cannibalised to keep others on the road until the parts arrived.
Vehicles coming back from Africa at the time required, as you might imagine, a major overhaul to get them back into top condition.
There were a number of problems when they came into service (mostly, iirc to do with the suspension, and with modifications we had specified) There were some armour cracks (about 30) and they were all minor and to be expected.0 -
If there is a mutual defence pact (that you intend to honour) - no you would not be neutral. Using the US as an example, as far as I know, Ireland and the US *do not* have a mutual defence pact. If the US goes to war with North Korea - we can maintain our neutral status.
I'm not saying the US cares about Ireland from the goodness of their hearts. But they do have a large financial interest in Ireland and I would expect that they would provide support in the event of someone invading Ireland.
That doesn't mean we aren't neutral or are allied with the US. It means we have strong relations with one another and the US is very well known for securing it's interest abroad.
Yeah, I think you are proving my point - that we are not and never have been neutral.....
......and the Yanks would only intervene to protect their interests - if, by some huge stretch of the imagine, were attacked and the belligerent could persuade the US that they would not adversely damage their interests (or there was a coup and some right nutter took over), the Yanks would just sit there - maybe they'd issue a strongly worded statement.0 -
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the new sight for the steyr is not going smothly, and the Mitsubishi pajeros and Ford Rangers are not fit for purpose.
hmmmmm the sight on the steyr isnt too great heh? How about the the magazines don't fall out when we run (see SA 80)? The new magzine guard (wtf?) isnt rusting (see SA 80)? Th gun doesnt suffer from excessive fouling (16 original).
On the other hand .. it works well within the terms of mounted infantry, easy to handle. Few accidental discharges, allow for compatible accessories (sights, 40mm grenade laucher, heavier barrel and and bigger drum mag for using as a LMG). It has a prove history in first world armies Austria, Australia and many others in a variety of climates. I can see the Steyr in service for another 10 years. Not a bad swop for a mountain of rancid butter in intervention0 -
Well, I wouldn't go basing assessments of the state of our security preparedness on 6 year old reports from the Herald of all places (which was based on an original piece in the Sunday Times).
It was (and is sensationalist rubbish).
The MOWAGs get hammered - they're good kit and they're in demand - which probably indicates we didn't buy enough. At the time there was a problem sourcing parts and some vehicles were being cannibalised to keep others on the road until the parts arrived.
Vehicles coming back from Africa at the time required, as you might imagine, a major overhaul to get them back into top condition.
There were a number of problems when they came into service (mostly, iirc to do with the suspension, and with modifications we had specified) There were some armour cracks (about 30) and they were all minor and to be expected.
All I can say is I speak from experience.skooterblue2 wrote: »hmmmmm the sight on the steyr isnt too great heh? How about the the magazines don't fall out when we run (see SA 80)? The new magzine guard (wtf?) isnt rusting (see SA 80)? Th gun doesnt suffer from excessive fouling (16 original).
On the other hand .. it works well within the terms of mounted infantry, easy to handle. Few accidental discharges, allow for compatible accessories (sights, 40mm grenade laucher, heavier barrel and and bigger drum mag for using as a LMG). It has a prove history in first world armies Austria, Australia and many others in a variety of climates. I can see the Steyr in service for another 10 years. Not a bad swop for a mountain of rancid butter in intervention
It does its job, but it has never been loved.0 -
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Simple thing -
Paris - suspects planned everything down to the minute. They knew that whichever police officer they happen upon be it regular or specialised, they knew there was a high chance they'd be killed. So they had to go for their target and get the hell out of there asap. They couldn't go on an all out spree as this knowledge alone meant they had no chance of survival. (This plan clearly wasn't thought through until the end given they decided to rob a petrol station with cctv and ultimately give away their location.)
Any Irish or British City - suspects plan everything down to the minute. They know that, more than likely, the first police to arrive or happen to be in the vicinity would be unarmed so that provides a crucial few extra minutes to do whatever they desire. Their escape plan wouldn't be so easily tarnished either as the uniform police in the entire city would be unable to do a single thing to stop them. Problem here is simple and it's been stated dozens of times before - the police are exceptionally under-equipped for this scenario or even consider putting such a scenario to an early end whereas in Paris there was an (albeit small) chance that they could. The officers themselves would also be open targets and, like in Paris, would be sought out by these guys. They get the additional disadvantage of not having a sidearm - so now they don't even have a fighting chance.
Not opening the 'arm the gardaí' can of worms here but it's a simple observation. In the overall scheme of things this argument would really apply more so to a British Town or City as the threat to them is considerably greater however it cannot be ignored.0 -
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Are people really comparing the N.Ireland situation to the threat presented from Islamic extremists ect? its whole different beast we ve never had to deal with gunmen going around killing at random almost! i can assure u there ll be no phone call to the local police before a suicide bomber goes into a shopping centre or something!0
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Simple thing -
Paris - suspects planned everything down to the minute. They knew that whichever police officer they happen upon be it regular or specialised, they knew there was a high chance they'd be killed. So they had to go for their target and get the hell out of there asap. They couldn't go on an all out spree as this knowledge alone meant they had no chance of survival. (This plan clearly wasn't thought through until the end geiven they decided to rob a petrol station with cctv and ultimately give away their location.)
........
Is that why they went into number 6, Rue Nicolas-Appert, before realising they had the wrong address - bit early maybe?
EDIT: and left a national id card in the getaway car they abandoned......0 -
Is that why they went into number 6, Rue Nicolas-Appert, before realising they had the wrong address - bit early maybe?
I said they planned everything. Whether they planned it out -properly- is another story altogether. They knew who they wanted and they knew how to get in and how to get out.
If anything it's disturbing that such a ragtag duo were able to accomplish what they had.0 -
I said they planned everything. Whether they planned it out -properly- is another story altogether. They knew who they wanted and they knew how to get in and how to get out.
If anything it's disturbing that such a ragtag duo were able to accomplish what they had.
except they didn't know the exact address........and you'd have thought if you are going off to carry out an attack like that, you'd dump your id, mobile phones etc......plus have a getaway car / bike about a mile away to swap into when you burn out the initial getaway vehicle......
I know no plan survives contact with the enemy, but these guys didn't even get into contact before it began to seriously unravel for them - thankfully, otherwise it could have been much worse - but it does show the calibre of individual that is supposed to be threatening us.0 -
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Are people really comparing the N.Ireland situation to the threat presented from Islamic extremists ect? its whole different beast we ve never had to deal with gunmen going around killing at random almost! i can assure u there ll be no phone call to the local police before a suicide bomber goes into a shopping centre or something!
Yes all those phone calls that saved the shoppers of Omagh and Dublin.0
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