What is middle class?

everdead.ie · 02-08-2014 5:00pm #1

I'm just wondering about what peoples thoughts are on this, following on from the education thread I find it difficult to actually identify myself in any class.

It's also rather unfashionable to be middle class these days it seems people are either working class or ruling class with no one identifying with the one in the middle?

Anyway what do you think makes someone middle class?
Education, earning ability, job security, accent, your social network?

darkpagandeath · 02-08-2014 5:01pm

No real class's anymore You either have money or you don't. Rich Americans think they are better than everyone else Regardless of upbringing schooling.

Arthur Beesley · 02-08-2014 5:02pm

We're the ones that pay most of the income tax.

Have never understood why anyone would aspire to be working class.

hjkl · 02-08-2014 5:02pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No real class's anymore You either have money or you don't. Rich Americans think they are better than everyone else Regardless of upbringing schooling.

But this isn't America, this is Ireland.

darkpagandeath · 02-08-2014 5:03pm

frimpong wrote: »

But this isn't America, this is Ireland.

We are very American here, You just have to have money to think your better than anyone else and do what you want.

Shakespeare's Sister · 02-08-2014 5:05pm

At a superficial level:

Not rich but comfortable - not struggling. Educated to third level. Homeowner.

briany · 02-08-2014 5:07pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

We're the ones that pay most of the income tax.

Have never understood why anyone would aspire to be working class.

The term 'working class' has slowly come to mean a whole class of people, a good proportion of whom exist on state benefits.

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 5:10pm

everdead.ie wrote: »

Anyway what do you think makes someone middle class?
Education, earning ability, job security, accent, your social network?

Pine nuts and sun-dried tomatoes in a salad.

V-neck sweater draped around the shoulders.

Tennis/squash/golf club membership.

A Brown Thomas loyalty card.

A slight feeling of belonging when one's letter is published in The Irish Times.

wazky · 02-08-2014 5:11pm

I never understood the term working class, it is usually used to describe people who are not working?

Agricola · 02-08-2014 5:13pm

Middle class - handy number, plenty of perks, status.

Working class - losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking your back.

Hotfail.com · 02-08-2014 5:14pm

Magaggie wrote: »

At a superficial level:

Not rich but comfortable - not struggling. Educated to third level. Homeowner.

I'd agree with this.

I was thinking middle class = having professional jobs, whilst working class = unskilled jobs, in general of course, but I think you summed it up better.

Arthur Beesley · 02-08-2014 5:15pm

Agricola wrote: »

Middle class - handy number, plenty of perks, status.

Working class - losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking your back.

Breaking your back on the dole while receiving rent allowance...

02-08-2014 5:16pm

Usually used to describe people educated to 3rd level+ who hold professional qualifications, are usually home owners, belong to an easily identifiable group sharing the same accent and manners, are culturally aware, and have reasonable amounts of disposable income.

The definition changes from place to place and from time to time, but the above generally holds true in the West.

Working class is often used to describe a growing underclass, and as such is a misnomer.

Arthur Beesley · 02-08-2014 5:16pm

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I'd agree with this.

I was thinking middle class = having professional jobs, whilst working class = unskilled jobs, in general of course, but I think you summed it up better.

You don't think there is anything in the middle?

What is a software developer?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 02-08-2014 5:19pm

Magaggie wrote: »

At a superficial level:

Not rich but comfortable - not struggling. Educated to third level. Homeowner.

This sums it up pretty well, although of course in Ireland at least many mc families are struggling.

The government relies heavily on them because of their tax and the fact that many are not entitled to things like medical cards etc. When it comes to down it some are probably worse off than working class families in the current climate.

darkpagandeath · 02-08-2014 5:19pm

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I'd agree with this.

I was thinking middle class = having professional jobs, whilst working class = unskilled jobs, in general of course, but I think you summed it up better.

Nah, It's changed now. Middle class now is having money. Working class now is anyone below middle class. from People on the dole to working in Tesco or similar. Odd that people working in the Civil service would usually think of themselves as middle class.

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 5:19pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

What is a software developer?

Nerds/dorks/geeks have their own special classification, and as such, deserve their own thread, which will be incomprehensible to most of us normal people.

Arthur Beesley · 02-08-2014 5:20pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Nerds/dorks/geeks have their own special classification, and as such, deserve their own thread, which will be incomprehensible to most of us normal people.

And for us software developers that are not Nerds/dorks/geeks...

darkpagandeath · 02-08-2014 5:21pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

You don't think there is anything in the middle?

What is a software developer?

If they wear a fedora, A hipster :pac:

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 5:22pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

And for us software developers that are not Nerds/dorks/geeks...

You're in denial - embrace your geekiness with pride!

Hotfail.com · 02-08-2014 5:22pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

You don't think there is anything in the middle?

What is a software developer?

Is that not a professional job?

I'd have considered a professional job anything that involved having a third level degree, or anything administrative. I suppose the lack of manual labour would also be a characteristic of a professional job.

Arthur Beesley · 02-08-2014 5:23pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Nah, It's changed now. Middle class now is having money. Working class now is anyone below middle class. from People on the dole to working in Tesco or similar. Odd that people working in the Civil service would usually think of themselves as middle class.

How is that odd? Given that it seems to meet your definition. Despite their protests, most civil servants are well paid.

Plus 'having money' is pretty ambiguous. Does having €50 count as having money?

Trebor176 · 02-08-2014 5:25pm

I know it's going back to the sixties, but I'm reminded of this Monty Python sketch:

[

I don't think anyone is really referred to as upper or lower class now.

fleet_admiral · 02-08-2014 5:25pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If they wear a fedora, A Weirdo:pac:

fyp

Brian? · 02-08-2014 5:25pm

The term middle class means nothing anymore. Middle class used to be associated with professional land owners. But there are plenty of working clas people who own homes.

The distinction between middle and working class has become so blurred it may as well be dismissed. The problem is a stigma now exists about being "working class", a stigma fueled by snobbery. It gets even more ridiculous when I hear people refer to lower and upper middle class.

The sooner we dismiss the idea of class the better.

ian87 · 02-08-2014 5:27pm

In one of my 1st lectures in college the lecturer proclaimed "it doesn't matter what your parents do or didn't do for a living, where you came from, you all now have one thing in common. You are now middle class." I found it so odd at the time and it still perplexes me to this day why he felt the need to tell us that.

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 5:27pm

Trebor176 wrote: »

I know it's going back to the sixties, but I'm reminded of this Monty Python sketch:

Link didn't work for me, but if it's the "I look up to him and down on him" one, then it's actually from "The Frost Report".

My God...maybe I'm a bit of a geek myself!

02-08-2014 5:28pm

Hotfail.com wrote: »

Is that not a professional job?

I'd have considered a professional job anything that involved having a third level degree, or anything administrative. I suppose the lack of manual labour would also be a characteristic of a professional job.

You can divide middle class into lower middle class, middle and upper middle class.

Guards and skilled non-professionals, nurses, teachers etc. would be (at least) lower middle class. Right in the middle would be barristers, architects, highly specialised scientists etc, and upper middle is what Irish people generally regard as upper class - highly successful businesspeople, barristers, consultants in private practice etc.

Upper class generally refers to people of independent means who are multi generationally very wealthy, royalty and the hereditarily titled, who may or may not be rich.

Hotfail.com · 02-08-2014 5:28pm

ian87 wrote: »

In one of my 1st lectures in college the lecturer proclaimed "it doesn't matter what your parents do or didn't do for a living, where you came from, you all now have one thing in common. You are now middle class." I found it so odd at the time and it still perplexes me to this day why he felt the need to tell us that.

That would have pissed me off no end.

Shakespeare's Sister · 02-08-2014 5:29pm

ian87 wrote: »

In one of my 1st lectures in college the lecturer proclaimed "it doesn't matter what your parents do or didn't do for a living, where you came from, you all now have one thing in common. You are now middle class." I found it so odd at the time and it still perplexes me to this day why he felt the need to tell us that.

Similar thing was said by a lecturer to us in college too. It annoyed those who are working class. I can understand their annoyance too - being in college doesn't suddenly wipe out your background.

Trebor176 · 02-08-2014 5:29pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Link didn't work for me, but if it's the "I look up to him and down on him" one, then it's actually from "The Frost Report".

My God...maybe I'm a bit of a geek myself!

It didn't work for me when I checked back, but I've rectified it, so it should work

And yes, you're right about the sketch

Frank Lee Midere · 02-08-2014 5:30pm

Agricola wrote: »

Middle class - handy number, plenty of perks, status.

Working class - losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking your back.

Then most of us are working class

pablo128 · 02-08-2014 5:30pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

You don't think there is anything in the middle?

What is a software developer?

'Neckbeard class.' :pac:

DEFTLEFTHAND · 02-08-2014 5:31pm

ian87 wrote: »

In one of my 1st lectures in college the lecturer proclaimed "it doesn't matter what your parents do or didn't do for a living, where you came from, you all now have one thing in common. You are now middle class." I found it so odd at the time and it still perplexes me to this day why he felt the need to tell us that.

A ridiculous statement to make.

Shakespeare's Sister · 02-08-2014 5:32pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Then most of us are working class

Most people are losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking their back?

Penny Tration · 02-08-2014 5:32pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Similar thing was said by a lecturer to us in college too. It annoyed those who are working class. I can understand their annoyance too - being in college doesn't suddenly wipe out your background.

That would infuriate me tbh. I'm working class, but have been to uni, am well educated and have a permanent job. I'm still working class. That's the background I come from, and I'm in a far from professional job.

Brian? · 02-08-2014 5:32pm

Candie wrote: »

You can divide middle class into lower middle class, middle and upper middle class.

Guards and skilled non-professionals, nurses, teachers etc. would be (at least) lower middle class. Right in the middle would be barristers, architects, highly specialised scientists etc, and upper middle is what Irish people generally regard as upper class - highly successful businesspeople, barristers, consultants in private practice etc.

Upper class generally refers to people of independent means who are multi generationally very wealthy, royalty and the hereditarily titled, who may or may not be rich.

Does categorising people like this not strike you as an enormous waste of time? What's actually the point of it?

Donkey Oaty · 02-08-2014 5:32pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A ridiculous statement to make.

I think it translates as:

You are on my territory now, and I decide on the definitions, so there.

02-08-2014 5:35pm

Brian? wrote: »

Does categorising people like this not strike you as an enormous waste of time? What's actually the point of it?

Of course it is, to most people.

To those who plan things like housing estates and shopping malls, or the advertising industry, or political parties targeting their personal demographic, it's a useful tool for finding the money.

There is much movement between all classes, except the upper class, anyway.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 02-08-2014 5:36pm

It's the class above the special class where all the boys and girls went that had problems "concentrating".

Sir Arthur Daley · 02-08-2014 5:37pm

Upper class = drive a vw
middle class = drive a skoda
lower class= drive a seat

Hotfail.com · 02-08-2014 5:37pm

Magaggie wrote: »

Similar thing was said by a lecturer to us in college too. It annoyed those who are working class. I can understand their annoyance too - being in college doesn't suddenly wipe out your background.

It's just irrelevant imo, as well as the fact that it sounds completely arrogant and I'd feel like he'd be insulting my working-class parents.

Kinda like saying "Forget about your working-class background, you're better than that now".

Shakespeare's Sister · 02-08-2014 5:37pm

Brian? wrote: »

The term middle class means nothing anymore. Middle class used to be associated with professional land owners. But there are plenty of working clas people who own homes.

The distinction between middle and working class has become so blurred it may as well be dismissed. The problem is a stigma now exists about being "working class", a stigma fueled by snobbery. It gets even more ridiculous when I hear people refer to lower and upper middle class.

The sooner we dismiss the idea of class the better.

I'm not into applying those terms to individuals either, but it can't be denied that people are born into differing economic/social circumstances that shape their lives to a point and affect how much opportunity they'll have.

tayto lover · 02-08-2014 5:37pm

Middle class = being fecked over by the Govt and paying lots of taxes so that the other two classes can have it handy.

pablo128 · 02-08-2014 5:39pm

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Upper class = drive a vw
middle class = drive an Audi (pretentious cnuts):pac:
lower class= drive a seat

FYP.

Frank Lee Midere · 02-08-2014 5:40pm

Candie wrote: »

You can divide middle class into lower middle class, middle and upper middle class.

Guards and skilled non-professionals, nurses, teachers etc. would be (at least) lower middle class. Right in the middle would be barristers, architects, highly specialised scientists etc, and upper middle is what Irish people generally regard as upper class - highly successful businesspeople, barristers, consultants in private practice etc.

Upper class generally refers to people of independent means who are multi generationally very wealthy, royalty and the hereditarily titled, who may or may not be rich.

That's pretty good.

However while not agreeing with anything else in Marx I agree with his three main classes .

1) bourgeoisie or aristrocrat: live primarily off dividends, capital gains or rent. And be wealthy. Live well after it. A pensioner with low income is not in this class.
2) petit bourgeoisie - the self employed. ( not the "middle income" earners. ). Also the bourgeoise with low income.
3) people who have to sell their labour to survive. If you work but you don't have to, you are not of this class. If you can lose your house or car regardless of present income you are a prole.

Education is irrelevant.

Those are the main classes. Two others are bureaucrats. And lumpens.

Trebor176 · 02-08-2014 5:40pm

There are students that go to fee paying schools or colleges, who people might automatically assume come from affluent areas, have rich parents, etc. It's not the case. I went to such institutions, and I am certainly not from a wealthy background. I live in a modest house, the family car is a mid-sized one, and although we're not loaded, we've never been stuck financially. And, it's the same for some neighbours, who went to the same school as me.

It really doesn't matter what sort of background a person comes from, whether it be from a poorer background or a wealthy background. It shouldn't define us as a person. There are people in less affluent areas, who can be among the nicest of all people, will have decent jobs, and even a third level education. It makes no difference. I don't have time for blatant sobbery, and I have heard and have come across such people. Sure, they may be nice and that, but they tend to boast.

darkpagandeath · 02-08-2014 5:41pm

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

How is that odd? Given that it seems to meet your definition. Despite their protests, most civil servants are well paid.

Plus 'having money' is pretty ambiguous. Does having €50 count as having money?

I find it odd in the historical definition they are public servants. Having money is being comfortable not rich.

eviltwin · 02-08-2014 5:43pm

I don't know where I fit in. I come from a well to do area but from a poor family so imagine what it was like growing up. We didn't fit into any bracket. Now I have my own home and a third level education but I'm not comfortable at all money wise and live in a working class area. People round here think I'm posh, people from back home think I'm a scobie.

bnt · 02-08-2014 5:44pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Link didn't work for me, but if it's the "I look up to him and down on him" one, then it's actually from "The Frost Report".

My God...maybe I'm a bit of a geek myself!

Yep - it's a pre-Python John Cleese, plus two guys named Ronnie who became famous in their own right over the following decades.

Middle Class is not a new concept. Aristotle thought that a large middle class was crucial in making a stable democracy possible:

Aristotle wrote:

Now in all states there are three elements: one class is very rich, another very poor, and a third in a mean. It is admitted that moderation and the mean are best, and therefore it will clearly be best to possess the gifts of fortune in moderation; for in that condition of life men are most ready to follow rational principle. But he who greatly excels in beauty, strength, birth, or wealth, or on the other hand who is very poor, or very weak, or very much disgraced, finds it difficult to follow rational principle. Of these two the one sort grow into violent and great criminals, the others into rogues and petty rascals. And two sorts of offenses correspond to them, the one committed from violence, the other from roguery. Again, the middle class is least likely to shrink from rule, or to be over-ambitious for it; both of which are injuries to the state. Again, those who have too much of the goods of fortune, strength, wealth, friends, and the like, are neither willing nor able to submit to authority.

The really rich have nothing to fear: the really poor have nothing to lose. You don't want either class running things. :eek:

everdead.ie · 02-08-2014 5:44pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't know where I fit in. I come from a well to do area but from a poor family so imagine what it was like growing up. We didn't fit into any bracket. Now I have my own home and a third level education but I'm not comfortable at all money wise and live in a working class area. People round here think I'm posh, people from back home think I'm a scobie.

That sounds like the best description of middle class yet! stuck in the middle!

What is middle class?

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