What is middle class?

Frank Lee Midere

KahBoom wrote: »

In 2006 you could have a huge mortgage, a decent job which made the mortgage sustainable, and be considered middle class.
By 2008/9 the same person could have a huge mortgage and negative equity, overall negative net-worth, and no job - making the mortgage unsustainable.

Are they still middle class? Were they ever middle class, if they had to rely on debt like that?

Nope. They are poorer than the homeless.

endacl

There are still three classes.

1. Yeah. I can buy whatever I want, whenever I want it. Hardly anybody in this group.

2. Well, I suppose if I'm careful with how I spend and I work hard, I can save for most of what I need and some of what I want. Maybe I'm out of work now, but I expect things to change. I am most definitely not in group '3'. That'd be most of us, I'd imagine.

3. Gimme money. Pay for my stuff. Much fewer in this group than in group '2'. Still far too many though. This is what happens when governments let it happen.

FWIW, I'm in group '2'. Don't expect to ever be in group '1'. Group '3'? Fcuk that! No way. Just couldn't.

Frank Lee Midere

Candie wrote: »

Life is no bowl of roses for the poor, subsidised or not.

Life isn't affected by recessions. And what does "poor" mean. The "middle class " can be poorer than the "poor " in wealth and real income.

ComputerKing

I really don't think there is a middle class anymore you have your poorer working class and then the mega rich but for everyone in between its really hard to identify what sort of class you are part of.

Kayleigh..

I think the "middle class" is more about a mentality than an actual income wage.

It's an idyllic notion of a family that owns a house, goes on a holiday or two each, sends their kids to college and lives a relatively comfortable life.

To put it in another way, they don't mind shopping places like penny's but can afford to splurge on a bit better now and again. :P

That's my opinion, anyway. :rolleyes:

Shakespeare's Sister

Dredd_J wrote: »

Used by others, so they can include themselves too.

Well that's just in your head in fairness.

MOL doesnt HAVE to work for a living.

Plenty of people the last few years were poorer than the tramp on the street and still considered themselves middle class.

Ok, is a solicitor working-class?

It's not just about income either.

KahBoom

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Nope. They are poorer than the homeless.

Right - so given that many of us, if we want to own a home in an acceptable location, have no other option but to take out a sizable mortgage that will take quite a long time to pay back - are any of us middle class?

Increased availability of private debt, has shrouded (at least) two things:
1: Decreased wages as a percentage of profits (that's been compensated for, partially with debt).
2: Property becoming an asset bubble, going through waves of greatly expanded prices (allowed by increased availability of debt) then crashes, allowing the 'upper' and financial classes who largely control property, to extract wealth from everyone else.

The illusion people have bought into, for becoming 'middle class' through debt, has given certain sections of society enormous power to exploit the 'middle'/lower classes who rely on that debt.

Dredd_J

Magaggie wrote: »

Well that's just in your head in fairness.

Ok, is a solicitor working-class?

I dont think you get this class thing at all.
All solicitors would not be the same "class" you know.

I think you probably realize now that youve been calling yourself middle class all these years and it hurts to realise that you arent.

Most solicitors I know are working class. If they gave up work tomorrow they wouldnt be able to live day to day anymore, and within a short time wouldnt be able to pay for they lifestyle they lead today.

Only the ones who have made millions and dont need to work to maintain their lifestyle would be middle or upper class.

Working class is used to describe "welfare class" these days out of pure PCness.

dd972

People in the ''upper-working'' / ''lower middle'' classes who think they're ''middle class'' are the most arrogant and vile snobs imaginable. Mr 50 something Golf Jumper and his mates sat at the bar are usually the worst.

mikemac1

Farmers can inspect their land in the jeep and an hour later will be cleaning ****e from the trailer with a yard brush

If you are a farmer you are a land owner and a labourer at the same time

What class are they so?

I think its when you have a new Mercedes C180 or a 5 year old E class but cant afford an S500.

steamengine

Drawing room with piano, savings account, polished shoes, handkerchiefs, sugar lumps, cucumber sandwiches, suit and tie, private schools, refined accent, white collar occupation. No axe to grind, but that sums up middle class to me.

Dredd_J

mikemac1 wrote: »

Farmers can inspect their land in the jeep and an hour later will be cleaning ****e from the trailer with a yard brush

If you are a farmer you are a land owner and a labourer at the same time

What class are they so?

Depends whether they can pay others to do the work, or have to actually do it themselves if they cant afford someone else.

I know farmers who will walk around in wellies and do the odd bit, but its really only to show that they are mucking in or is a hobby to them to get their hands dirty. They pay others to do the hard work.

And then i know farmers who run the whole farm by themselves because they dont make enough to pay even one person them.

Shakespeare's Sister

Dredd_J wrote: »

I think you probably realize now that youve been calling yourself middle class all these years and it hurts to realise that you arent.

Nothing "hurts".
I don't care what class I am but I would be deemed middle-class because my background meets the cultural criteria: professional parents who always owned their home, getting a third-level education was just the norm, never had to struggle financially.
Working-class people would laugh (hysterically) at me if I told them I'm from a working-class background.
You're presenting your personal definition of working-class (which you're entitled to) as universally recognised and a fact.

Working class is used to describe "welfare class" these days out of pure PCness.

I'd agree with that. Well I don't know that it's out of PCness but it seems to spring from a very narrow definition of working-class: living in a council estate, not having third level education, whereas there's far more to it than that.

newmug

Magaggie wrote: »

I'm not into applying those terms to individuals either, but it can't be denied that people are born into differing economic/social circumstances that shape their lives to a point and affect how much opportunity they'll have.

Wouldn't agree with that. In the free world, we all have equal opportunity to make something of ourselves. Definitely in Ireland.


I think there's 4 classes:


1) Upper class - Filthy rich, own a chain of worldwide hotels. Drive a different Ferrari everyday.


2) Middle class - Senior consultant surgeon, senior judge. Chauffer driven in a Rolls Royce.


3) Working class - Everybody else under this, whether you work physically or administratively, or even if you're on the dole and actually willing to work. Drive anything from taking pubic transport to a VW to a Merc. 99% of us are here.


4) Scum class. I'm talking about the like of the Dundons. Live off proceeds of crime and deliberate misery inflicted on others. No intention of ever cooperating with society. Put cocaine in your tea instead of sugar. Drive anything as long as its stolen.

Dr Strange

What piffle! I only go by the Victorian Class System:

http://www.victorianweb.org/history/Class.html

Dredd_J

Magaggie wrote: »

Nothing "hurts".
I don't care what class I am but I would be deemed middle-class because my background meets the cultural criteria: professional parents who always owned their home, getting a third-level education was just the norm, never had to struggle financially.
Working-class people would laugh (hysterically) at me if I told them I'm from a working-class background.
You're presenting your personal definition of working-class (which you're entitled to) as universally recognised and a fact.

I'd agree with that. Well I don't know that it's out of PCness but it seems to spring from a very narrow definition of working-class: living in a council estate, not having third level education, whereas there's far more to it than that.

If you gave up work tomorrow, would you be able to live in the style you are accustomed to for the rest of your life?

If the answer is no, then you are working class right now.

Shakespeare's Sister

newmug wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with that. In the free world, we all have equal opportunity to make something of ourselves.

Unfortunately that's not true. We do all have that opportunity, but for some it's a much longer road then others. Someone who is born to junkie parents who don't read to them hardly has an equal opportunity to someone who is brought up in a stable home.

Shakespeare's Sister

Dredd_J wrote: »

If you gave up work tomorrow, would you be able to live in the style you are accustomed to for the rest of your life?

If the answer is no, then you are working class right now.

Yeh that's your opinion, which I have no problem with, but it's not a fact. People would refute you - working-class people in particular. There are other factors to consider than just income or whether working or not. There are lots of other angles when it comes to definition of "socio-economic" class.

Dredd_J

Magaggie wrote: »

Yeh that's your opinion, which I have no problem with, but it's not a fact. People would refute you - working-class people in particular. There are other factors to consider than just income or whether working or not. There are lots of other angles when it comes to definition of "socio-economic" class.

Id say only the deluded "working class" who like to think they are "middle class" would refute me. The clue is the word "working".

Shakespeare's Sister

Dredd_J wrote: »

Id say only the deluded "working class" who like to think they are "middle class" would refute me. The clue is the word "working".

Someone who is from a working-class background would definitely refute that I'm working-class.

Frank Lee Midere

KahBoom wrote: »

Right - so given that many of us, if we want to own a home in an acceptable location, have no other option but to take out a sizable mortgage that will take quite a long time to pay back - are any of us middle class?

Increased availability of private debt, has shrouded (at least) two things:
1: Decreased wages as a percentage of profits (that's been compensated for, partially with debt).
2: Property becoming an asset bubble, going through waves of greatly expanded prices (allowed by increased availability of debt) then crashes, allowing the 'upper' and financial classes who largely control property, to extract wealth from everyone else.

The illusion people have bought into, for becoming 'middle class' through debt, has given certain sections of society enormous power to exploit the 'middle'/lower classes who rely on that debt.

No. I was quite clear. The middle class is a myth.

Frank Lee Midere

mikemac1 wrote: »

Farmers can inspect their land in the jeep and an hour later will be cleaning ****e from the trailer with a yard brush

If you are a farmer you are a land owner and a labourer at the same time

What class are they so?

Middle class.

nc19

Lower class - dole scroungers and people living of social welfare usually in council estate

working class - secondary ed or less usually in a low skilled job. May or not not live in rough area. May or may not have a mortgage.

Middle class - 3rd level ed. Management position in some field or have own small business. Own a home where they want to live. Change the cars every few years.

Upper class - born into money, inherited some big business or other. Consultant Dr. or barrister or tv/radio personality. Lives in Foxrock/Dalkey/Malahide or the like in a huge house. Changes car every 6 months. Calls the lower classes 'Riff Raff'



Imo


There are, of course, exceptions to every class.

I would fall somewhere between working and middle class

Shakespeare's Sister

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

No. I was quite clear. The middle class is a myth.

There's working-class and upper-class and nothing in between?

newmug

Magaggie wrote: »

Unfortunately that's not true. We do all have that opportunity, but for some it's a much longer road then others. Someone who is born to junkie parents who don't read to them hardly has an equal opportunity to someone who is brought up in a stable home.

That child would ideally be taken into the care of a relative or the state. Even if they weren't, they get the same school as the rest of us, and will have the same job offers whenever they enter the workplace, be that at 18 with a LC or at 12 illiterate. Regardless, they may have a longer road, but there is no way "disadvantaged" people have any less of a chance to make something of themselves than any of us.

tritium

Interesting to see the different definitions people have, it goes a way the explaining the conflict that always arises on threads around tax or social welfare.

For me there are a few ways of looking at it. To an extent its I think down to mindset though professional classes for example would perhaps be traditionally the middle class. The Celtic tiger seemed to blur traditional lines greatly though.

Tarzana

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I was thinking middle class = having professional jobs, whilst working class = unskilled jobs, in general of course, but I think you summed it up better.

What about skilled, non-professional jobs?

Tarzana

ian87 wrote: »

In one of my 1st lectures in college the lecturer proclaimed "it doesn't matter what your parents do or didn't do for a living, where you came from, you all now have one thing in common. You are now middle class." I found it so odd at the time and it still perplexes me to this day why he felt the need to tell us that.

Third level education is so commonplace now that it's no longer a class indicator.

Czarcasm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

No. I was quite clear. The middle class is a myth.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Middle class.