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What is middle class?

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    #32
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Agricola wrote: »
    Middle class - handy number, plenty of perks, status.

    Working class - losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking your back.

    Then most of us are working class


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    #33
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    You don't think there is anything in the middle?

    What is a software developer?
    'Neckbeard class.' :pac:


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    #34
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    ian87 wrote: »
    In one of my 1st lectures in college the lecturer proclaimed "it doesn't matter what your parents do or didn't do for a living, where you came from, you all now have one thing in common. You are now middle class." I found it so odd at the time and it still perplexes me to this day why he felt the need to tell us that.

    A ridiculous statement to make.


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    #35
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Then most of us are working class
    Most people are losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking their back?


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    #36
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Magaggie wrote: »
    Similar thing was said by a lecturer to us in college too. It annoyed those who are working class. I can understand their annoyance too - being in college doesn't suddenly wipe out your background.

    That would infuriate me tbh. I'm working class, but have been to uni, am well educated and have a permanent job. I'm still working class. That's the background I come from, and I'm in a far from professional job.


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    #37
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Candie wrote: »
    You can divide middle class into lower middle class, middle and upper middle class.

    Guards and skilled non-professionals, nurses, teachers etc. would be (at least) lower middle class. Right in the middle would be barristers, architects, highly specialised scientists etc, and upper middle is what Irish people generally regard as upper class - highly successful businesspeople, barristers, consultants in private practice etc.

    Upper class generally refers to people of independent means who are multi generationally very wealthy, royalty and the hereditarily titled, who may or may not be rich.

    Does categorising people like this not strike you as an enormous waste of time? What's actually the point of it?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #38
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    A ridiculous statement to make.

    I think it translates as:
    You are on my territory now, and I decide on the definitions, so there.


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Brian? wrote: »
    Does categorising people like this not strike you as an enormous waste of time? What's actually the point of it?

    Of course it is, to most people.

    To those who plan things like housing estates and shopping malls, or the advertising industry, or political parties targeting their personal demographic, it's a useful tool for finding the money.

    There is much movement between all classes, except the upper class, anyway.


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    #40
    Wishiwasa Littlebitaller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭Wishiwasa Littlebitaller


    It's the class above the special class where all the boys and girls went that had problems "concentrating".


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    #41
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Upper class = drive a vw
    middle class = drive a skoda
    lower class= drive a seat


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    #42
    Hotfail.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    Magaggie wrote: »
    Similar thing was said by a lecturer to us in college too. It annoyed those who are working class. I can understand their annoyance too - being in college doesn't suddenly wipe out your background.

    It's just irrelevant imo, as well as the fact that it sounds completely arrogant and I'd feel like he'd be insulting my working-class parents.

    Kinda like saying "Forget about your working-class background, you're better than that now".


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    #43
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Brian? wrote: »
    The term middle class means nothing anymore. Middle class used to be associated with professional land owners. But there are plenty of working clas people who own homes.

    The distinction between middle and working class has become so blurred it may as well be dismissed. The problem is a stigma now exists about being "working class", a stigma fueled by snobbery. It gets even more ridiculous when I hear people refer to lower and upper middle class.

    The sooner we dismiss the idea of class the better.
    I'm not into applying those terms to individuals either, but it can't be denied that people are born into differing economic/social circumstances that shape their lives to a point and affect how much opportunity they'll have.


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    #44
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Middle class = being fecked over by the Govt and paying lots of taxes so that the other two classes can have it handy.


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    #45
    pablo128
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭pablo128


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Upper class = drive a vw
    middle class = drive an Audi (pretentious cnuts):pac:
    lower class= drive a seat
    FYP.


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    #46
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Candie wrote: »
    You can divide middle class into lower middle class, middle and upper middle class.

    Guards and skilled non-professionals, nurses, teachers etc. would be (at least) lower middle class. Right in the middle would be barristers, architects, highly specialised scientists etc, and upper middle is what Irish people generally regard as upper class - highly successful businesspeople, barristers, consultants in private practice etc.

    Upper class generally refers to people of independent means who are multi generationally very wealthy, royalty and the hereditarily titled, who may or may not be rich.

    That's pretty good.

    However while not agreeing with anything else in Marx I agree with his three main classes .

    1) bourgeoisie or aristrocrat: live primarily off dividends, capital gains or rent. And be wealthy. Live well after it. A pensioner with low income is not in this class.
    2) petit bourgeoisie - the self employed. ( not the "middle income" earners. ). Also the bourgeoise with low income.
    3) people who have to sell their labour to survive. If you work but you don't have to, you are not of this class. If you can lose your house or car regardless of present income you are a prole.

    Education is irrelevant.

    Those are the main classes. Two others are bureaucrats. And lumpens.


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    #47
    Trebor176
    Registered Users Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭Trebor176


    There are students that go to fee paying schools or colleges, who people might automatically assume come from affluent areas, have rich parents, etc. It's not the case. I went to such institutions, and I am certainly not from a wealthy background. I live in a modest house, the family car is a mid-sized one, and although we're not loaded, we've never been stuck financially. And, it's the same for some neighbours, who went to the same school as me.

    It really doesn't matter what sort of background a person comes from, whether it be from a poorer background or a wealthy background. It shouldn't define us as a person. There are people in less affluent areas, who can be among the nicest of all people, will have decent jobs, and even a third level education. It makes no difference. I don't have time for blatant sobbery, and I have heard and have come across such people. Sure, they may be nice and that, but they tend to boast.


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    #48
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    How is that odd? Given that it seems to meet your definition. Despite their protests, most civil servants are well paid.

    Plus 'having money' is pretty ambiguous. Does having €50 count as having money?

    I find it odd in the historical definition they are public servants. Having money is being comfortable not rich.


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    #49
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I don't know where I fit in. I come from a well to do area but from a poor family so imagine what it was like growing up. We didn't fit into any bracket. Now I have my own home and a third level education but I'm not comfortable at all money wise and live in a working class area. People round here think I'm posh, people from back home think I'm a scobie.


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    #50
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,962 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Link didn't work for me, but if it's the "I look up to him and down on him" one, then it's actually from "The Frost Report".

    My God...maybe I'm a bit of a geek myself!
    Yep - it's a pre-Python John Cleese, plus two guys named Ronnie who became famous in their own right over the following decades.

    Middle Class is not a new concept. Aristotle thought that a large middle class was crucial in making a stable democracy possible:
    Aristotle wrote:
    Now in all states there are three elements: one class is very rich, another very poor, and a third in a mean. It is admitted that moderation and the mean are best, and therefore it will clearly be best to possess the gifts of fortune in moderation; for in that condition of life men are most ready to follow rational principle. But he who greatly excels in beauty, strength, birth, or wealth, or on the other hand who is very poor, or very weak, or very much disgraced, finds it difficult to follow rational principle. Of these two the one sort grow into violent and great criminals, the others into rogues and petty rascals. And two sorts of offenses correspond to them, the one committed from violence, the other from roguery. Again, the middle class is least likely to shrink from rule, or to be over-ambitious for it; both of which are injuries to the state. Again, those who have too much of the goods of fortune, strength, wealth, friends, and the like, are neither willing nor able to submit to authority.
    The really rich have nothing to fear: the really poor have nothing to lose. You don't want either class running things. :eek:

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #51
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I don't know where I fit in. I come from a well to do area but from a poor family so imagine what it was like growing up. We didn't fit into any bracket. Now I have my own home and a third level education but I'm not comfortable at all money wise and live in a working class area. People round here think I'm posh, people from back home think I'm a scobie.
    That sounds like the best description of middle class yet! stuck in the middle!


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    #52
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I find it odd in the historical definition they are public servants. Having money is being comfortable not rich.

    It would take somebody on 100k a year who saved 50k a year 1000 years to save 50M, 10000 years to save 500m, 100000 years to save 5B. The richest people in the world are billionaires.


    However most people think that the guy on 100k is rich and the guy who has 5B is also rich. This is to massively misunderstands class relations.


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    #53
    Stroke Politics
    Registered Users Posts: 570 ✭✭✭Stroke Politics


    Middle class = when the size of your book-case is bigger than the size of your plasma screen....


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    #54
    Dredd_J
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭Dredd_J


    Middle class is used by people who work for a living, to describe themselves, so that they can feel that they are at a higher station than they actually are.
    If you work for a living you are working class.


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    #55
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    In 2006 you could have a huge mortgage, a decent job which made the mortgage sustainable, and be considered middle class.
    By 2008/9 the same person could have a huge mortgage and negative equity, overall negative net-worth, and no job - making the mortgage unsustainable.

    Are they still middle class? Were they ever middle class, if they had to rely on debt like that?


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    #56
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Dredd_J wrote: »
    Middle class is used by people who work for a living, to describe themselves, so that they can feel that they are at a higher station than they actually are.
    Well the description is used by others too, not just the person themselves.
    If you work for a living you are working class.
    Nah there's way more to it than that. Michael O'Leary works - is he working-class?


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Stroke Politics wrote: »
    Middle class = when the size of your book-case is bigger than the size of your plasma screen....

    :)


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    #58
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    bnt wrote: »
    Yep - it's a pre-Python John Cleese, plus two guys named Ronnie who became famous in their own right over the following decades.

    Middle Class is not a new concept. Aristotle thought that a large middle class was crucial in making a stable democracy possible:

    The really rich have nothing to fear: the really poor have nothing to lose. You don't want either class running things. :eek:

    True. Another good definition of working class is this: can a recession see you in penury.

    Neither applies to the rich or subsidised " poor". Life is a bowl of roses. The rest of us can see ourselves on the scrap heap or emigrating.

    Again. Education is irrelevant. I have no idea why people are happy to describe themselves as PAYE *workers* but not as working class. Meanwhile the self designed working class don't work.


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    #59
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Magaggie wrote: »
    Well the description is used by others too, not just the person themselves.

    Nah there's way more to it than that. Michael O'Leary works - is he working-class?

    The term "work for a living" isn't the same as "choosing to work" but not having to. It defines itself.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    True. Another good definition of working class is this: can a recession see you in penury.

    Neither applies to the rich or subsidised " poor". Life is a bowl of roses. The rest of us can see ourselves on the scrap heap or emigrating.

    Again. Education is irrelevant. I have no idea why people are happy to describe themselves as PAYE *workers* but not as working class. Meanwhile the self designed working class don't work.

    Life is no bowl of roses for the poor, subsidised or not.


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    #61
    Dredd_J
    Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭Dredd_J


    Magaggie wrote: »
    Well the description is used by others too, not just the person themselves.

    Nah there's way more to it than that. Michael O'Leary works - is he working-class?


    Used by others, so they can include themselves too.

    MOL doesnt HAVE to work for a living.

    Plenty of people the last few years were poorer than the tramp on the street and still considered themselves middle class.


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