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What is middle class?

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    #182
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Class is nonsense. A person should be paid what they're worth. No more no less.

    Define worth? should and Ambulance drive be paid as much as doctor.


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    #183
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Define worth? should and Ambulance drive be paid as much as doctor.

    Everyone is worth what they are able to negotiate from their employer.

    The more a person is worth the more their ability to leverage higher wages.


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    #184
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Everyone is worth what they are able to negotiate from their employer.

    The more a person is worth the more their ability to leverage higher wages.

    I am not saying this at you specifically, but when ever I here the above I always here someone saying that in smug voice knowing full well they have a sought after well paid profession.


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    #185
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    I'll stick my head above the parapet...I consider myself "upper middle class".


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    #186
    Bog Standard User
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Bog Standard User


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You've left out middle class completely there and the rich pay far more tax than any other group...

    ok middle class - people with grand delusions of being better off than working class despite the bulk of their wealth being tied up in properties deep in negative equity


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    #187
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Bog Standard User wrote: »
    ok middle class - people with grand delusions of being better off than working class despite the bulk of their wealth being tied up in properties deep in negative equity

    What about well paid professionals who have no mortgage who own their own home or rent. What class are they?


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    #188
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    I'm not sure that "class" has anything to do with money (so the "negative equity argument" is erroneous).

    I would have thought that education, manners, etiquette and profession would be more relevant factors.

    Take the example of a surgeon who's underwater financially because of toxic property investments. His father was also a surgeon. He's a member of Royal Dublin and Fitzwilliam. He went to Blackrock as did his father before him. He lives in D4. He has a 10 year ticket for Lansdowne Road. He enjoys fine dining, wine and cheese. He goes to cultural events (e.g. opera and ballet).

    This person is upper middle class.

    A Lotto winner from Moyross is not middle class


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    #189
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Everyone is worth what they are able to negotiate from their employer.

    The more a person is worth the more their ability to leverage higher wages.

    Surely you mean that everyone's work is worth what they are able to negotiate from their employer, not what you actually wrote.

    If you really do think a person's worth is based on what they are paid for their work, that is really sad.


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    #190
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    People seem to be going toward the their is no middle class but by definition their has to be a middle class the only difference being the requirements to enter it can shift up or down.

    For instance if people agreed it was based on salary/income you could say middle class is between x and y or if it was education its was a third level degree but now its a masters.

    Or maybe its some mix of a number of parameters and you would have to match several of them to be middle class.

    Again people might not like being called middle class for several reasons but by definition if something has a top and a bottom it has to have a middle.


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    #191
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    Surely you mean that everyone's work is worth what they are able to negotiate from their employer, not what you actually wrote.

    If you really do think a person's worth is based on what they are paid for their work, that is really sad.
    That's the standard circular refrain for anyone who wants to justify income inequality:
    "People are paid what they are worth, therefore they must be worth it if they are getting paid that much"

    The argument is basically that no matter what someone does to gain money, the money itself automatically makes it all moral, just and fair - because money...

    The purpose of that circular argument, is to shut down discussion of the fact that some people gain money dishonestly and/or fraudulently, and/or through unfair privilege.


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    #192
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    Surely you mean that everyone's work is worth what they are able to negotiate from their employer, not what you actually wrote.

    If you really do think a person's worth is based on what they are paid for their work, that is really sad.
    Their worth being what they contribute to society, measured in numerical terms by how indispensable they are to their employer i.e. how much they get paid.


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    #193
    Baron Kurtz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭Baron Kurtz


    It's all just like soil horizon. So many, many, many layers.


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    #194
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    everdead.ie wrote: »
    What is middle class?
    Boards.ie


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    #195
    Bog Standard User
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Bog Standard User


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    What about well paid professionals who have no mortgage who own their own home or rent. What class are they?

    clever


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    #196
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    Funnily enough I know people who would be working class who consider themselves middle class. Conversely, I know a few people who would be considered middle class by most who seem convinced they're working class, and wear it as a badge of honour. Sad really.

    I never took much notice of it myself, being from the countryside it was less of an issue than it seems to be in Dublin and other urban areas.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Why don't we class people according to genetic make up? It might be a more realistic judge of pedigree than how much money your family currently has?

    What do you have in mind? That's extremely vague, and leaves one to assume you mean something sinister.


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    #197
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    Macavity. wrote: »
    Funnily enough I know people who would be working class who consider themselves middle class. Conversely, I know a few people who would be considered middle class by most who seem convinced they're working class, and wear it as a badge of honour. Sad really.

    I never took much notice of it myself, being from the countryside it was less of an issue than it seems to be in Dublin and other urban areas.



    What do you have in mind? That's extremely vague, and leaves one to assume you mean something sinister.
    We already do it by chromosones and call them male or female.


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    #198
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    everdead.ie wrote: »
    We already do it by chromosones and call them male or female.

    I know, but I'm assuming steddyeddy wasn't referring to that.


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    #199
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    I'm not sure that "class" has anything to do with money (so the "negative equity argument" is erroneous).


    You can be upper class and poor as a churchmouse. Many of the British aristocracy are all but penniless and can't afford the heating and upkeep of their houses. Opening estate houses to the public is just a way of keeping the estate afloat rather than an income source. In many ways they're prisoners of their privilege and tradition.

    It's less relevant in Ireland, but class and money aren't always that closely intertwined. A person with no disposable income from a wealthy background established over generations is never going to be working class, and a working class person who wins hundreds of millions in a lottery is never going to be upper class.

    A persons worth has nothing to do with their class. Class is just shorthand for classification, something we all do with most things. We classify everything. :)


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    #200
    Bog Standard User
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Bog Standard User


    Candie wrote: »
    You can be upper class and poor as a churchmouse. Many of the British aristocracy are all but penniless and can't afford the heating and upkeep of their houses. Opening estate houses to the public is just a way of keeping the estate afloat rather than an income source. In many ways they're prisoners of their privilege and tradition.

    It's less relevant in Ireland, but class and money aren't always that closely intertwined. A person with no disposable income from a wealthy background established over generations is never going to be working class, and a working class person who wins hundreds of millions in a lottery is never going to be upper class.

    A persons worth has nothing to do with their class. Class is just shorthand for classification, something we all do with most things. We classify everything. :)



    so why does a first class stamp cost more than a 3rd class stamp?

    why does a seat in first class on a plane cost more than economy class?

    Money yes thats right Money

    people with money can afford the first class


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    #201
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bog Standard User wrote: »
    so why does a first class stamp cost more than a 3rd class stamp?

    why does a seat in first class on a plane cost more than economy class?

    Money yes thats right Money

    people with money can afford the first class


    But it doesn't make them first class. :)


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    #202
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    I know people are saying "If you work for someone else, you're working-class and that's the end of it" but people would not view e.g. me as working-class. That isn't me not wanting to be considered working-class - I really couldn't give a toss what "class" I'm deemed (and as a teenager I'd have probably liked it, having had the auld Pulp Common People insecurity syndrome about being middle-class :pac:) but there is just no way I'd be deemed working-class given my background.


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    #203
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    MrsYelnekoff wrote: »
    I think this country is getting more like India, Just lower class and extremely rich.
    Ireland comparable to India... now that's some leap.


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    #204
    Deer
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Deer


    MrsYelnekoff wrote:
    I think this country is getting more like India, Just lower class and extremely rich.


    Have you actually been to India?


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    #205
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    Deer wrote: »
    Have you actually been to India?

    I've been to Ananda up in Dundrum...does that count?


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    #206
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Deer wrote: »
    Have you actually been to India?

    One can only be truly considered POSH after they've done the return journey by boat, with a cabin facing landward each way


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    #207
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    One can only be truly considered POSH after they've done the return journey by boat, with a cabin facing landward each way

    Port outward starboard home? That's a possible origin for the word POSH but these meanings change with time.


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    #208
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Port outward starboard home? That's a possible origin for the word POSH but these meanings change with time.

    It used to be printed on the best return tickets to India


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    #209
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    If you're really struggling - working class

    If you're getting by reasonably comfortably but with not much disposable income - middle class


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    #210
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    If you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics- Richard Feynman.

    It seems the same applies to the class system because we're getting about 20 different explanations for it. So basically the class system is the opinion people have of other people. It is no linnaean system of classification.


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    #211
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    If you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics- Richard Feynman.

    It seems the same applies to the class system because we're getting about 20 different explanations for it. So basically the class system is the opinion people have of other people. It is no linnaean system of classification.
    Of course. I don't believe it has ever been insinuated differently?


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