The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

PGL · 31-07-2013 3:08pm

PGL wrote: »

There is a limited selection / sizes online. Plus as you say delivery probably won't be too swift. They had a new (predominantly white) polo shirt on the website on Sat, but it has since been removed.....

Just back from the O'Neills factory shop on the Long Mile Road. They have white or navy polo shirts in stock for €20 a pop - can't argue with that!

Roll on Sunday!

Tom Joad · 31-07-2013 3:31pm

Is it just me or are the new Cavan jerseys really bad quality - bought one last week for the young lad and shocked at how bad it was!!

Taffy Kat · 31-07-2013 3:34pm

PGL wrote: »

Just back from the O'Neills factory shop on the Long Mile Road. They have white or navy polo shirts in stock for €20 a pop - can't argue with that!

Roll on Sunday!

Navy would do me... where is the Long Mile Road?

Tom Joad wrote: »

Is it just me or are the new Cavan jerseys really bad quality - bought one last week for the young lad and shocked at how bad it was!!

They're not meant to be worn after June... sun gets at them

.

bradyle · 31-07-2013 4:50pm

PGL · 31-07-2013 5:19pm

Taffy Kat wrote: »

Navy would do me... where is the Long Mile Road?.

Look up Long Mile Road on Google maps. It is located behind Wigoders. You can get to it when driving in the westbound direction of Long Mile Road, approx 300 metres before the junction with Walkinstown Ave.

eastmayo · 31-07-2013 5:59pm

Good luck to cavan on sunday.how many supporters from cavan are yeah expectin sunday?15000?.we should have around that id say.good day out as long as mayo and cavan win.

Lemlin · 31-07-2013 6:35pm

eastmayo wrote: »

Good luck to cavan on sunday.how many supporters from cavan are yeah expectin sunday?15000?.we should have around that id say.good day out as long as mayo and cavan win.

We had 15,000 there last weekend for the London game. I know a good few people who couldn't attend because the game was on a Saturday.

I'd expect 20,000 to 25,000 this weekend.

Taffy Kat · 31-07-2013 7:48pm

PGL wrote: »

Look up Long Mile Road on Google maps. It is located behind Wigoders. You can get to it when driving in the westbound direction of Long Mile Road, approx 300 metres before the junction with Walkinstown Ave.

Thanks.

Tom Joad · 31-07-2013 8:43pm

Lemlin wrote: »

We had 15,000 there last weekend for the London game. I know a good few people who couldn't attend because the game was on a Saturday.

I'd expect 20,000 to 25,000 this weekend.

I'd say you could go to the top end - 25,000 or so

tayto lover · 31-07-2013 8:44pm

The best of luck to Cavan on Sunday.
I will be there to cheer you on and hope your young guns can do it.

Gallant_JJ · 31-07-2013 9:21pm

Any one an opinion on the team? Difficult to see who will loose out should Jason McLauglin come in, which I reckon he will. The other possible change being McDermott for Jack. Good to see we have some options.

Nailz · 31-07-2013 9:24pm

Lemlin wrote: »

As you say yourself, Gilsenan was on crutches two weeks ago so I don't think there's a hope of him being fit. It's a pity because he commands the area better than O'Meara. Gilsenan isn't afraid to come out and punch balls but I can't see O'Meara having that physical presence. In saying that, he played against Monaghan and Meath in the league and did well.

They're both very good keepers, but I prefer Gilly to Alan, bigger presence, stronger, more confident when dealing with high ball.

<snip> Edit: I'll leave that for another time...

The future is bright with them lads though, I'm looking forward to many years with Conor and Alan minding the Cavan goals.

willabur · 31-07-2013 9:40pm

what is the club situation with them? Which of them plays senior for the club and what does the other lad do? play out the field?
I heard Gilsenan looked to move to another club but that was rejected

willabur · 31-07-2013 9:42pm

selection wise I think mclauglin would be a good man to bring in to pick up the gooch perhaps.
I would keep jack in there, we will need to be economical with the ball when we get it around the middle and Jack probably has our highest pass completion rate which will be critical as it gives us a better chance of guaranteeing possession closer to the Kerry goal

scatman carruthers · 31-07-2013 9:50pm

How much money are ye bringing to Dublin ? Will ye be sneaking cans into the bars and into the hill

Lemlin · 31-07-2013 9:51pm

willabur wrote: »

selection wise I think mclauglin would be a good man to bring in to pick up the gooch perhaps.
I would keep jack in there, we will need to be economical with the ball when we get it around the middle and Jack probably has our highest pass completion rate which will be critical as it gives us a better chance of guaranteeing possession closer to the Kerry goal

Who would you leave out though? I think McDermott has to come back in for the work he gets through and he's a better physical presence than Jack.

I think Jack would be a nice impact sub to have. Bring him on to change things round a bit.

I think the team has to be named tonight doesn't it? 5 days before championship game.

In saying that though, Terry will probably just throw out a default team.

Taffy Kat · 31-07-2013 10:03pm

scatman carruthers, 30/7/2013, 23:01 wrote: »

Why are Cavan people stereotyped as tight gits just as a matter of interest

scatman carruthers, 31/7/2013, 21:50 wrote: »

How much money are ye bringing to Dublin ? Will ye be sneaking cans into the bars and into the hill

willabur · 31-07-2013 10:03pm

If he was to come in it would probably be Mossy Corr even though he put in a good shift the last day.
I think Mcvitty will be called upon at some stage, I would have him in at the start instead of Mcenroe.

I dunno if its me seeing the potential in Jack rather than the end product, footballer wise he is probably the best that we have. If he was a bit faster and stronger we would be talking one of the best in the country - Has the potential to become a bit of Brian Mcguigan circa 05. I was chatting to one of my mates about him the other day and he was inclined to drop him also, reckoned he wasn't getting involved enough in the game itself. But I point to the pass he played into Keating for THAT miss. It was an exceptional pass that so few are capable off. It looked great on TV I can only imagine how good it must have looked from the lower cusack. Thats what Jack brings to this team, I think he could be the key for us as another work horse just won't bring it

Taffy Kat · 31-07-2013 10:12pm

I listened to that programme about Cavan that Lemlin (I think) recommended. Was very interesting, the part on hurling was also good. The more the week goes on the more I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that young legs could surprise an aging Kerry team.

willabur · 31-07-2013 10:29pm

I wouldn't be so sure, the legs might have a few miles on the clock but they also have a handful of celtic crosses on the dash board. I think you'll find that a 3/4s full croker will be another prospect again for this young cavan team - alot of energy will be expended on pure nerves alone. I hope terry borrowed the jerseys of the Ballymachugh team this week in training this week, let the boys get used to the sight of men in green and gold

Lemlin · 31-07-2013 11:02pm

willabur wrote: »

If he was to come in it would probably be Mossy Corr even though he put in a good shift the last day.
I think Mcvitty will be called upon at some stage, I would have him in at the start instead of Mcenroe.

I dunno if its me seeing the potential in Jack rather than the end product, footballer wise he is probably the best that we have. If he was a bit faster and stronger we would be talking one of the best in the country - Has the potential to become a bit of Brian Mcguigan circa 05. I was chatting to one of my mates about him the other day and he was inclined to drop him also, reckoned he wasn't getting involved enough in the game itself. But I point to the pass he played into Keating for THAT miss. It was an exceptional pass that so few are capable off. It looked great on TV I can only imagine how good it must have looked from the lower cusack. Thats what Jack brings to this team, I think he could be the key for us as another work horse just won't bring it

To drop Corr would be madness IMO. Who are you going to play midfield with Givney then? I don't see how dropping Corr would free up a place for Jack anyway.

The general replacements for Corr are Reilly or McEnroe who are both from half back line.

The front six were:

Mackey, Brady, Flanagan, Reilly, Dunne, Keating.

It's one of those you need to drop unless you plan to move one to midfield to cover Corr and then slot McDermott in.

It was Dunne who hand passed the ball to Keating for the miss?

Taffy Kat · 31-07-2013 11:06pm

willabur wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure, the legs might have a few miles on the clock but they also have a handful of celtic crosses on the dash board. I think you'll find that a 3/4s full croker will be another prospect again for this young cavan team - alot of energy will be expended on pure nerves alone. I hope terry borrowed the jerseys of the Ballymachugh team this week in training this week, let the boys get used to the sight of men in green and gold

It much depends on how that youthful nervousness is expended. If its on wobbly legs its a bad thing, if its on enthusiasm it can be a positive. Much of that will depend on how Terry handles it and what he instills into the team.

Nailz · 31-07-2013 11:09pm

willabur wrote: »

what is the club situation with them? Which of them plays senior for the club and what does the other lad do? play out the field?
I heard Gilsenan looked to move to another club but that was rejected

As far as I know, neither of them actually play in goal for Bailieborough, their goalkeeper is James Cooney, but he's out with a broken ankle at the moment. I'm unsure as to which of them is filling in for him in the meantime. Personally I find it strange that the second and third choice goalkeepers of a club are sharing the first and second choice for the county, but I'm not the ones who pick the squad.

They're not bad goalies, and Terry Hyland obviously trusts them and have done a service to his U21 teams over the years so I'm not going to complain.

Grainne101 · 31-07-2013 11:18pm

Nailz wrote: »

As far as I know, neither of them actually play in goal for Bailieborough, their goalkeeper is James Cooney, but he's out with a broken ankle at the moment. I'm unsure as to which of them is filling in for him in the meantime. Personally I find it strange that the second and third choice goalkeepers of a club are sharing the first and second choice for the county, but I'm not the ones who pick the squad.

They're not bad goalies, and Terry Hyland obviously trusts them and have done a service to his U21 teams over the years so I'm not going to complain.

No they are not bad goalies, not bad at all, plenty of clubs would love to have either I'd say, says more about the club than the county IMO :rolleyes:

Nailz · 31-07-2013 11:27pm

Grainne101 wrote: »

No they are not bad goalies, not bad at all, plenty of clubs would love to have either I'd say, says more about the club than the county IMO :rolleyes:

That's a bit harsh on James Cooney in fairness, I've only seen him a few times when they were playing against Shercock and looked to be fairly competent, it's obviously the choice of the management, on both county and club sides. They're fortune to have such a set to choose from.

Lemlin · 31-07-2013 11:28pm

Grainne101 wrote: »

No they are not bad goalies, not bad at all, plenty of clubs would love to have either I'd say, says more about the club than the county IMO :rolleyes:

I heard before that Gilsenan tried to transfer to Killinkere.

I know he used to play outfield for them at minor.

Back then he used to look gigantic on the pitch.

yop · 31-07-2013 11:56pm

Good luck on Sunday, my granddad was a Cavan man so I have a soft spot for ye feckers!

Enjoy the day out anyway.

willabur · 01-08-2013 3:45am

Lemlin wrote: »

To drop Corr would be madness IMO. Who are you going to play midfield with Givney then? I don't see how dropping Corr would free up a place for Jack anyway.

The general replacements for Corr are Reilly or McEnroe who are both from half back line.

The front six were:

Mackey, Brady, Flanagan, Reilly, Dunne, Keating.

It's one of those you need to drop unless you plan to move one to midfield to cover Corr and then slot McDermott in.

It was Dunne who hand passed the ball to Keating for the miss?

you picked me up wrong on two counts there.
I was talking about mcloughlin coming in for corr - nothing to do jack.
And for the pass I am talking about, watch the clip again. The initial pass that is played into keating - 40/50 yard pass played at a low trajectory that completely bamboozled the defender. Watch the clip again, so few play players are capable of that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=akMjaqiu_2w&t=207

celt262 · 01-08-2013 8:17am

Taffy Kat wrote: »

I listened to that programme about Cavan that Lemlin (I think) recommended. Was very interesting, the part on hurling was also good. The more the week goes on the more I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that young legs could surprise an aging Kerry team.

Thats bull anyway just because lads are older does not mean that they are not fit.

Taffy Kat · 01-08-2013 8:36am

celt262 wrote: »

Thats bull anyway just because lads are older does not mean that they are not fit.

No its not bull, but thanks for your super-intellectual response anyway. Young legs will have more energy, older heads will have more experience. If what you're trying to say was true then lads could play inter-county football until they were 70. I didn't say Kerry won't be fit. Its a simple biological fact though that a 30 year old won't be as quick as he was when he was 20.

celt262 · 01-08-2013 8:39am

Taffy Kat wrote: »

No its not bull, but thanks for your super-intellectual response anyway. Young legs will have more energy, older heads will have more experience. If what you're trying to say was true then lads could play inter-county football until they were 70. I didn't say Kerry won't be fit.

Its a simple biological fact though that a 30 year old won't be as quick as he was when he was 20.

Yes but you could still get a 30 year old quicker than a 20 year old.

Taffy Kat · 01-08-2013 10:12am

celt262 wrote: »

Yes but you could still get a 30 year old quicker than a 20 year old.

Of course you can, Linford Christie is 53 and I'm pretty sure he's still faster than the vast majority of 20 year olds. I wouldn't give him much hope against today's sprinters though.

Look, there are far too many people on this site (in general, not this thread in particular) who read comments as black-and-white. I didn't say, "Cavan are younger so they must win" as you're interpreting my comments, but that younger legs can be an advantage. Anyone with even the most basic concept of the aging process would see the reason for that argument.

Lemlin · 01-08-2013 10:29am

Taffy Kat wrote: »

Of course you can, Linford Christie is 53 and I'm pretty sure he's still faster than the vast majority of 20 year olds. I wouldn't give him much hope against today's sprinters though.

Look, there are far too many people on this site (in general, not this thread in particular) who read comments as black-and-white. I didn't say, "Cavan are younger so they must win" as you're interpreting my comments, but that younger legs can be an advantage. Anyone with even the most basic concept of the aging process would see the reason for that argument.

I agree. Celt is unneceesarily splitting hairs and to be honest 2 line answers aren't exactly explaining his reasons for disagreeing very aptly.

Nowhere did you say that Kerry were not fit. You said they have "aging legs". I'd agree. People talk about hunger all the time e.g. The Donegal team won't be as good this year because they haven't as much hunger as last year now that they've won an All-Ireland.

This Kerry team have their All-Ireland medals so, if the game is still in the melting pot with 15 minutes left, I'd imagine our lads are going to have more hunger to try and push on and win it. They're the team that don't have All-Ireland medals.

The fact that very few counties have had back to back All-Ireland successes supports this view of "hunger" to win being important.

Lemlin · 01-08-2013 10:35am

willabur wrote: »

you picked me up wrong on two counts there.
I was talking about mcloughlin coming in for corr - nothing to do jack.
And for the pass I am talking about, watch the clip again. The initial pass that is played into keating - 40/50 yard pass played at a low trajectory that completely bamboozled the defender. Watch the clip again, so few play players are capable of that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=akMjaqiu_2w&t=207

Apologies re picking you up wrong. I still think Corr is totally the wrong man to drop. His physicality is needed and he's also an experienced head in amongst the younger players. As I said, I think if he'd played we could well have beaten Monaghan.

I hadn't noticed Jack's pass and it was indeed sublime but I still think McDermott would offer more in terms of the work he gets through. One thing I wouldn't mind seeing is Jack tried in the corner. I've seen him do some devastating work for Ramor there and sticking Mickey Newman in the corner has worked well for Meath.

I actually had this discussion with a few friends yesterday re the forwards and who to drop and most of them wanted Dunne dropped. Now I know it won't happen and it would be madness by Terry to drop the top scorer in this year's championship but I'm amazed myself by how many are expecting so little from him Sunday.

I do think if things aren't working, as per the Monaghan game, Keating should be stuck in full forward with Brady playing off him and take Dunne off. Martin Reilly and McDermott would be there to take frees anyway.

tayto lover · 01-08-2013 10:37am

celt262 wrote: »

Yes but you could still get a 30 year old quicker than a 20 year old.

I think that's more with women in niteclubs to be honest

You could get some of them in their 50's who are faster.

Crash Bang Wall · 01-08-2013 10:41am

scatman carruthers wrote: »

How much money are ye bringing to Dublin ? Will ye be sneaking cans into the bars and into the hill

Nah, we leave the sneaking cans to the Dubs. They are masters at it

munchkin_utd · 01-08-2013 10:46am

Lemlin wrote: »

<snip>
This Kerry team have their All-Ireland medals so, if the game is still in the melting pot with 15 minutes left, I'd imagine our lads are going to have more hunger to try and push on and win it. They're the team that don't have All-Ireland medals.

The fact that very few counties have had back to back All-Ireland successes supports this view of "hunger" to win being important.

Kerry would have as much fear as hunger.

The medal in the back pocket may mean something in Donegal or the likes and create a sense of a job well done, but in Kerry fear of failure is as much a driver as anything regardless of past victories.
It was mentioned that Kerry fans are like animals, well imagine that rotweiler snapping at your heels and you can be sure you'll be focused in the last 10 minutes !!

Taffy Kat · 01-08-2013 11:00am

Lemlin wrote: »

I agree. Celt is unneceesarily splitting hairs and to be honest 2 line answers aren't exactly explaining his reasons for disagreeing very aptly.

Nowhere did you say that Kerry were not fit. You said they have "aging legs". I'd agree. People talk about hunger all the time e.g. The Donegal team won't be as good this year because they haven't as much hunger as last year now that they've won an All-Ireland.

This Kerry team have their All-Ireland medals so, if the game is still in the melting pot with 15 minutes left, I'd imagine our lads are going to have more hunger to try and push on and win it. They're the team that don't have All-Ireland medals.

The fact that very few counties have had back to back All-Ireland successes supports this view of "hunger" to win being important.

Its changing sport slightly, though still under the GAA umbrella, but that ability to instil a "continuation of hunger" has to be one of Cody's greatest abilities as manager, and one of the greatest aspects of the Kilkenny side of the last 10-15 years. Very few can do it, and it is, as you point out, a distinct advantage for Cavan.

celt262 · 01-08-2013 1:34pm

Taffy Kat wrote: »

Of course you can, Linford Christie is 53 and I'm pretty sure he's still faster than the vast majority of 20 year olds. I wouldn't give him much hope against today's sprinters though.

Look, there are far too many people on this site (in general, not this thread in particular) who read comments as black-and-white. I didn't say, "Cavan are younger so they must win" as you're interpreting my comments, but that younger legs can be an advantage. Anyone with even the most basic concept of the aging process would see the reason for that argument.

Yeah but if the old legs get tired they will bring on a few subs to freshen things up, IMO it wont have a affect on the result.

Lemlin · 01-08-2013 1:36pm

celt262 wrote: »

Yeah but if the old legs get tired they will bring on a few subs to freshen things up, IMO it wont have a affect on the result.

I really don't think you are getting the point she's making. You're taking a metaphorical point very literally.

celt262 · 01-08-2013 1:49pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I really don't think you are getting the point she's making. You're taking a metaphorical point very literally.

The only point that i am interested in is that it won't make one bit of difference to the result on Sunday that Kerry have older players.

Lemlin · 01-08-2013 1:52pm

celt262 wrote: »

The only point that i am interested in is that it won't make one bit of difference to the result on Sunday that Kerry have older players.

I'd disagree. Will those lads be as up for a battle as they were when they were 24/25 and just starting out? I don't think so.

Colm Cooper has said himself that if he was starting out now he'd struggle with how physical the game is.

smileyj1987 · 01-08-2013 2:11pm

I just want to wish you luck on Sunday , I think Cavan will give Kerry a good game . I have heard a few people say you will get an awful hiding but I can't see that happening because Terry Hyland has made you a very organised team that will be hard to break down .

willabur · 01-08-2013 3:39pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I'd disagree. Will those lads be as up for a battle as they were when they were 24/25 and just starting out? I don't think so.

Colm Cooper has said himself that if he was starting out now he'd struggle with how physical the game is.

the trouble is that Colm Cooper with a little less fight in him is still a terrific footballer. We need him to have a flat day on sunday to have any chance. I only think legs will become a factor if it becomes a real dog fight and we are in the mix with 10 to 15 minutes to go. To get into that position would be incredible as this Kerry team like many in their past have the potential to annihilate us if we give them any rope at all e.g. allowing donaghy to win clean possession close to our goals centrally with two sullivans and the gooch running off his shoulder...

celt262 · 01-08-2013 5:52pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I'd disagree. Will those lads be as up for a battle as they were when they were 24/25 and just starting out? I don't think so.

Colm Cooper has said himself that if he was starting out now he'd struggle with how physical the game is.

This is Kerry we are talking about of course they will be up for it. They won their last 3 league games when most pundits had written them off they were up for a battle then and they will be on Sunday.

What copper said has nothing to do with fitness or battles.

Lemlin · 01-08-2013 8:49pm

celt262 wrote: »

This is Kerry we are talking about of course they will be up for it. They won their last 3 league games when most pundits had written them off they were up for a battle then and they will be on Sunday.

What copper said has nothing to do with fitness or battles.

When did I say they wouldn't be up for it? You seem to read what a person posts and then comprehend it in your own little way. Just like Taffy Kat didn't say Kerry were unfit, I didn't say they wouldn't be up for the match.

As I said above though, and you chose to ignore, do you think they'll be as up for it as they were when they were 24/25? A player's prime is seen as around 27 for a reason. Alot of the Kerry lads are past that.

What Cooper said had nothing to do with fitness or battles? I'd suggest you read that article again because its something you've also comprehended wrong.

The article is about the physical battles with backs and Cooper moving out to centre forward and going from ten stone to twelve over the years to be able to cope with the physical game.

The entire article is about Cooper thinking the game is getting too much about the physical side and less about skill.

At least you managed to string more than two sentences together in response.

Taffy Kat · 01-08-2013 8:53pm

Lemlin wrote: »

I really don't think you are getting the point she's making. You're taking a metaphorical point very literally.

Btw, I'm very much male... the picture I threw up the other day was of Italian singer Laura Pausini because the other user had asked me was I female, and she's very beautiful but also very unknown in this part of Europe

.

You're bang on with it being a metaphorical point. As I've already said it wasn't intended as "Cavan are younger ergo they will win". Its just a simple fact, as I've pointed out, that older legs won't be as quick nor will they have as much stamina, and as you've pointed out they may not have as much desire either.

To be honest, part of me feels Celt is trying as hard as possible to say "Cavan will lose" for superstition. Sorry Celt if I'm wrong, its just a sensation I have.

Lemlin · 01-08-2013 9:01pm

willabur wrote: »

the trouble is that Colm Cooper with a little less fight in him is still a terrific footballer. We need him to have a flat day on sunday to have any chance. I only think legs will become a factor if it becomes a real dog fight and we are in the mix with 10 to 15 minutes to go. To get into that position would be incredible as this Kerry team like many in their past have the potential to annihilate us if we give them any rope at all e.g. allowing donaghy to win clean possession close to our goals centrally with two sullivans and the gooch running off his shoulder...

I'd be sticking someone a bit cynical like Damien O'Reilly on him and just leave it as their job to catch him as much as they can.

Ten or fifteen minutes of that would hopefully put him off his stride.

celt262 · 01-08-2013 9:03pm

Lemlin wrote: »

When did I say they wouldn't be up for it? You seem to read what a person posts and then comprehend it in your own little way. Just like Taffy Kat didn't say Kerry were unfit, I didn't say they wouldn't be up for the match.

You need to relax

As I said above though, and you chose to ignore, do you think they'll be as up for it as they were when they were 24/25? A player's prime is seen as around 27 for a reason. Alot of the Kerry lads are past that.

Why would they not be as up for it, just because they are not in there "prime" does not mean they are not hungry for success or "up for it".

What Cooper said had nothing to do with fitness or battles? I'd suggest you read that article again because its something you've also comprehended wrong.

The article is about the physical battles with backs and Cooper moving out to centre forward and going from ten stone to twelve over the years to be able to cope with the physical game.

The entire article is about Cooper thinking the game is getting too much about the physical side and less about skill.

What has that got to do with what we were talking about, i was talking about Cavan and Kerry.

At least you managed to string more than two sentences together in response

Why thank you.

.

.

celt262 · 01-08-2013 9:06pm

Taffy Kat wrote: »

Btw, I'm very much male... the picture I threw up the other day was of Italian singer Laura Pausini because the other user had asked me was I female, and she's very beautiful but also very unknown in this part of Europe .

You're bang on with it being a metaphorical point. As I've already said it wasn't intended as "Cavan are younger ergo they will win". Its just a simple fact, as I've pointed out, that older legs won't be as quick nor will they have as much stamina, and as you've pointed out they may not have as much desire either.

To be honest, part of me feels Celt is trying as hard as possible to say "Cavan will lose" for superstition. Sorry Celt if I'm wrong, its just a sensation I have.

No im fed up with people thinking Cavan will beat kerry because Kerry are old and will get tired.

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