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My unborn child is going to hell

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    #152
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I do agree with you, and i have made it clear that there will be absolutely no indoctrination permiitted at any stage. It's just a man in a nice frock splashing a bit of water around, that's as far as it goes!
    Also i don't mean to worry you, but if you zoom in really close on that photo - i think you can see horns starting to grow!:D

    Edit: But for the sake of the day, i get years of peace. Lazy way out? Absolutely. But i don't see any real harm to any party, especially the child.

    Unfortunately it's not as far as it goes. Every child baptised because 'ah, it keeps the grandparents quiet and it does no harm' is another percentage point of artificially inflated numbers for the RCC to point at and go "Look! 84% of the country is Catholic, so there's a definite need for us to have Catholic schools.", another person for them to claim to represent, and another hurdle in getting this country secular.

    Have a naming ceremony, have a day out, have a party, just think about the long term before you decide to baptise the child. If you give in to the parents on this to keep them happy then you'll be forking out for Communions and Confirmations for as many kids as you wind up having. If I were you I'd tell the parents that I didn't share their religious beliefs, I believed it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to baptise my child into a religion I didn't believe in, and that the child can make up their own mind whether or not to join whatever religion they want when they're old enough.

    (Well, actually, I'd probably be a bit bolshier than that and ask them if they thought I should get them signed up for Islam, Judaism, and the Jains while I'm at it)


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    #153
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Liamario wrote: »
    The man had a triple bypass about a decade ago. He thinks scientists know nothing. :rolleyes:

    I have religious in-laws and I used to tip toe a bit around it but I would just say something like "from what I can see, it depends on your respect for science".

    Anyway, loads of people have religious in-laws. The majority of country folk are still religious and huge numbers up the North are creationists. So mathematically, unless you are both 6th generation Dublin it's likely there's a few religious memes about.


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    #154
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I have a 3 yr old who isn't bapthised. Why would I? I don't go to church, I have nothing but contempt for the Church, why would I allow myself to be bullied or pressured by people in the family into making a decision about my child that I don't agree with?

    I don't understand it. I get the pressure thing, I have my own family even now having a go at me over it constantly and no matter how much I say NO I still get a hard time.

    BUT if I give in on this what kind of precedent does that set? And what message does that send my kids? It seems to be a real Irish thing this "what will mammy think" mentality.

    People need to learn to stand by their convictions.


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    #155
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Robin - how do you put up with Popette?
    Luckily, Popette only visits from her distant home occasionally.

    Otherwise, well, it's like a strange mixture of Dana, John Waters (whom she admires as "an intellectual"), an audio version of the Alive trashzine, EWTN and Herr Ratzinger all rolled into one.

    Frankly, she's hard to deal with, though on the plus side, her religious beliefs have encouraged her entire extended family to become enthusiastic atheists.


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    #156
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    I don't think the OP has made any suggestion that the grandad is considering a sly baptism.


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    #157
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I don't think the OP has made any suggestion that the grandad is considering a sly baptism.
    Liamario wrote: »

    I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

    I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

    Ummm...he did.

    Right there in the very first post.


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    #158
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    I know my Dad had at mine with Holy Water, technically according to RC doctrine you can baptise if you have been confirmed, but I don't consider it to be official and there are no church records re my kids. Apparently it meant him and other older family members sleep better knowing my kids won't go limbo.

    I have had a sibling have a go several times that if anything happens to my kids they won't get a 'proper' funeral and The Family don't be able to grieve properly or get any 'comfort' from the funeral. Their kids are baptised, which my two think is unfair on their cousins cos they don't have a choice or a say in it. Oh the joys of family.


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    #159
    Liamario
    Registered Users Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭Liamario


    Lads and Ladies, I think it's important to note that the original post was posted over a year ago. Fionn is 9 month's old and doted on by all his grandparents.

    I think to quote my original post when making a point is likely to be conflicting with the current situation and possibly moot.


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    #160
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Morag wrote: »
    I have had a sibling have a go several times that if anything happens to my kids they won't get a 'proper' funeral and The Family don't be able to grieve properly or get any 'comfort' from the funeral. Their kids are baptised, which my two think is unfair on their cousins cos they don't have a choice or a say in it. Oh the joys of family.

    I hope you told them that you find them fantasising about your children dying untimely deaths quite morbid and more than a little unsettling. Oh, and that the Pope has done away with Limbo, and now all babbies go to heaven.


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    #161
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ummm...he did.

    Right there in the very first post.

    Well he didn't do a sly baptism so who cares


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    #162
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I don't think the OP has made any suggestion that the grandad is considering a sly baptism.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ummm...he did.

    Right there in the very first post.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Well he didn't do a sly baptism so who cares

    :confused:


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    #163
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Well he didn't do a sly baptism so who cares

    Erm... weren't you the one who brought it up after OP was just giving us an update on what had happened?


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    #164
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Liamario wrote: »
    Another amusing thing he said was that by not baptising the child, I'd be taking away my child's ability to choose for itself.

    I love the old "give him a choice by removing all his alternatives" argument.

    Frankly I think nobody should be baptised or otherwise inducted into a religion until they are old enough to understand and give informed consent. We have rules guaranteeing it for sex, marriage, drinking, driving &c. so why not for religion?


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    #165
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Penn wrote: »
    Erm... weren't you the one who brought it up after OP was just giving us an update on what had happened?

    Indeed I was, then I realized that the OP was over a year ago, hence "who cares". I don't anyhow.

    By the way OP I'm glad the little fellah is doing well.


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    #166
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    I love the old "give him a choice by removing all his alternatives" argument.

    Ive heard Jews using that one to justify circumcision. No joke.
    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Frankly I think nobody should be baptised or otherwise inducted into a religion until they are old enough to understand and give informed consent. We have rules guaranteeing it for sex, marriage, drinking, driving &c. so why not for religion?

    Agreed. Luckily though, religion doesn't really matter.


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    #167
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    robindch wrote: »
    You're missing that I suggested that the deal is that the OP concedes on the baptism in return for the dad conceding on everything religious after the baptism. See this post.

    That compromise will never happen. Even if Liam's father seems to agree to it, he won't be, because he'll have seen his son backing down over the baptism, and will see his grandson as a good catholic in need of communion and confirmation.

    The baptism will forever be used as a wedge to widen the area in which Liam's father has veto over the raising of his grandson.


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    #168
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Kidchameleon wrote: »


    Agreed. Luckily though, religion doesn't really matter.

    With 93% of our State funded primary schools under the control of one religion it sure as **** matters!

    When precious time/resources are spent in our State funded schools on religious indoctrination/ preparation for religious rituals rather than maths/science it sure as **** matters.

    When people are forced to baptise their children to help them secure a place in a State funded school it sure as **** matters.

    When one has no option in a court of law but to swear an oath on a 'Holy Book' (as happened me 2 years ago) it sure as **** matters.

    When our Head of State has to utter the words '"In the presence of Almighty God I do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfill my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me" upon taking office it sure as **** matters.


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    #169
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    With 93% of our State funded primary schools under the control of one religion it sure as **** matters!

    Id be more concerned with the state funding black hole banks as opposed to relatively paltry sums you suggest here.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    When precious time/resources are spent in our State funded schools on religious indoctrination/ preparation for religious rituals rather than maths/science it sure as **** matters.

    Kids don't have to participate in religion in schools.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    When people are forced to baptise their children to help them secure a place in a State funded school it sure as **** matters.

    They are not forced. Their are alternatives.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    When one has no option in a court of law but to swear an oath on a 'Holy Book' (as happened me 2 years ago) it sure as **** matters.

    You do NOT have to swear on the bible. If you did then you are a walkover and a hypocrite.
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    When our Head of State has to utter the words '"In the presence of Almighty God I do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfill my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me" upon taking office it sure as **** matters.

    Its only words. Get over it.


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    #170
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Id be more concerned with the state funding black hole banks as opposed to relatively paltry sums you suggest here.

    The banks have nothing to do with it - the State has managed to find 90 million euro to build schools for the Christian Brothers which will then come under the control of the Edmund Rice Trust who insist on a Catholic ethos.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/90m-payout-row-over-vacant-school-29077025.html
    Kids don't have to participate in religion in schools.

    Schools should be educating - not indoctrinating.


    They are not forced. Their are alternatives.
    In some urban centres only.


    You do NOT have to swear on the bible. If you did then you are a walkover and a hypocrite.

    Tell that to the judges of Cork District court - and less of the insults if you don't mind.
    A friend of mine was recently called for jury duty in the same court - again she was told there was no option but to swear on the Bible.


    Its only words. Get over it.

    No. It's my country too.


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    #171
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Kidchameleon wrote: »

    Kids don't have to participate in religion in schools.



    They are not forced. Their are alternatives.


    Do you have kids? Its easy not to see how serious it is if you don't have dealings with the education system. I think most schools are pretty good about accommodating students who aren't Catholic but its extra work for them and its hassle for the kids especially when there is an obvious alternative ie keeping faith teachings to outside school hours.


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    #172
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Teach me to be cool and apathetic like you, KidChameleon!


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    #173
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Do you have kids? Its easy not to see how serious it is if you don't have dealings with the education system. I think most schools are pretty good about accommodating students who aren't Catholic but its extra work for them and its hassle for the kids especially when there is an obvious alternative ie keeping faith teachings to outside school hours.

    I suspect Kidchameleon has never had to listen to a 6 year old rant that she spends too much time in school learning about holymarymotherofgod and not enough time learning to read and do maths.

    When a 6 year old asks to be homeschooled so she can learn and not have to hear about religion something is terribly wrong with our education system.

    When someone thinks that religion and it's all pervasive influence over the Irish state 'doesn't matter' - there is something terribly wrong with our education system.

    When 90 million euro is being handed over by the State to an organisation to build schools which was found guilty of systemic child abuse (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/thousands-raped-in-irelands-christian-brothers-schools-28522897.html) and filed for bankruptcy (http://www.pcvalaw.com/christianbrothers/) to avoid paying reparation to it's victims while at the same time placing it's assets into a private trust - something is rotten at the very heart of the State.

    But sure - it's not like any of that matters.....:rolleyes:


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    #174
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Tell that to the judges of Cork District court - and less of the insults if you don't mind.
    A friend of mine was recently called for jury duty in the same court - again she was told there was no option but to swear on the Bible.

    I could be wrong, but I understand it is possible to affirm an oath rather than swear one. Controversy over oaths is nothing new, Quakers also refuse to swear oaths. The affirmation goes by:

    “I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”.

    It isn't surprising that your friend would be unaware of this as most people aren't, but a district court judge should be aware of it.


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    #175
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Sarky wrote: »
    Teach me to be cool and apathetic like you, KidChameleon!

    Or how to miss all the points so impressively!


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    #176
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    I could be wrong, but I understand it is possible to affirm an oath rather than swear one. Controversy over oaths is nothing new, Quakers also refuse to swear oaths. The affirmation goes by:

    “I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”.

    It isn't surprising that your friend would be unaware of this as most people aren't, but a district court judge should be aware of it.

    I have done this in the UK but caused consternation in Cork when I told the guard handling the case that I refused to swear on the Bible and asked what alternatives were available. After much tutting I was told by the clerk of court that there was no other option - as it happened I was a witness and the defendant eventually pleaded guilty so I wasn't called to the stand (I only wasted a day hanging around waiting...).

    Friend specifically asked for an alternative should she be picked for a jury (it may have been Circuit Court in her case but it was still in Cork), citing her atheism, and was also told there was no alternative...she wasn't picked so again it ended up with her not having to take the oath.

    TBH, I was hoping to be called to the stand as I was planning on refusing to swear on the Bible and insisting an alternative option be provided.


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    #177
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    I have done this in the UK but caused consternation in Cork when I told the guard handling the case that I refused to swear on the Bible and asked what alternatives were available. After much tutting I was told by the clerk of court that there was no other option - as it happened I was a witness and the defendant eventually pleaded guilty so I wasn't called to the stand (I only wasted a day hanging around waiting...).

    Friend specifically asked for an alternative should she be picked for a jury (it may have been Circuit Court in her case but it was still in Cork), citing her atheism, and was also told there was no alternative...she wasn't picked so again it ended up with her not having to take the oath.

    TBH, I was hoping to be called to the stand as I was planning on refusing to swear on the Bible and insisting an alternative option be provided.

    It doesn't say a lot for those judges that they didn't know how to handle a situation such as this. The current act has been in place since 1888 ffs! I'd encourage anyone who gets a summons or jury duty to inform themselves as to their right to make an affirmation rather than swear an oath, I don't particularly like the idea of oaths myself.


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    #178
    jimd2
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭jimd2


    As a catholic parent I would not have an issue with a significant reduction and eventual elimination of religious teaching in Catholic run schools. The schools are paid for by the state and it is only through the fact that the schools are owned by the religious that they have an influence. I have been on a board of management and the religious influence is almost non existant.

    Preparation for confirmation anyway (and probably communion) should be outside school. Perhaps even during the day and the teacher continuing to teach those not participating or evn totally outside in the evenings. This will mean that the families that are committed to it will stay involved and others wont. It will also get away from the farce in which religious "events" are thought up by the PP in order to get the parents to bring the kids to mass a few times in the year.

    After all, baptism is arranged outside school so can the other ceremonies.

    My biggest gripe is with secondary school. We have a daughter doing junior cert and too much time is spent on other subjects like religion, sphe, civics - I am not even sure of the names. There should be one subject covering health and developmental issues. I actually think the time saved should be spent on more PE and also some resource in which older kids help junior certs in subjects they are struggling on. Some teachers resist this as it shows them up. If kids dont have an interest in religion when they hit the teenage years, boring classes wont help and may put them off.


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    #179
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    It doesn't say a lot for those judges that they didn't know how to handle a situation such as this. The current act has been in place since 1888 ffs! I'd encourage anyone who gets a summons or jury duty to information themselves as to their right to make an affirmation rather than swear an oath, I don't particularly like the idea of oaths myself.

    That's why I was hoping to be called to the stand to force the issue - apparently they were having a lot of trouble finding anyone willing to come forward and bare witness against this particular person (he broke into my car and was caught with items belonging to me on his person). At the time he was out on bail after 3 serious assault charges plus a few burglaries - lets just say the Guards wanted to see him go down and really really wanted a witness against him so were delighted when I said I would testify that the property they recovered was mine.

    The clerk of court (who is a neighbour of my mother's) and I had the following conversation:
    'I'm pretty sure there is an alternative'.
    'No, there isn't - just swear on the Bible ffs!'
    'No.'
    'you always were a troublemaker.'
    'Bite me - if you want me to testify, give me an alternative oath or I'm going back to work now.'
    'I'll tell your mother on you.'
    'Do that - but I should warn you, she'll take the head off you.'
    'Stand over there and I'll get back to you' *glare*

    The clerk never did get back to me, 2 hours later the defendant pleaded guilty so I wasn't called, the clerk complained to my mother and mother went through the clerk without taking a short cut.

    My Mam has a vicious tongue on her. :D


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    #180
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Kids don't have to participate in religion in schools.
    In a lot of schools, not participating isn't at all feasible. There have been many threads from parents here, where they reported having the option to not have their children participate, only to find out later that their choice wasn't being respected. Or that to exercise that choice, they would have to supervise the children during the school day themselves. Or that religion was interspersed throughout the day so avoiding it was largely impossible.


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    #181
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    'you always were a troublemaker.'
    'Bite me - if you want me to testify, give me an alternative oath or I'm going back to work now.'
    'I'll tell your mother on you.'

    There you are in an Irish court, talking to the court clerk, and that's an actual, real conversation!
    Only in Ireland.


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