My unborn child is going to hell

kylith

A friend of mine is in court quite a bit (on the side of the good guys, I promise!) and she said that while there is the affirmation, taking that rather than swearing on the bible may make the jury more hostile toward you.

Bloodwing

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's why I was hoping to be called to the stand to force the issue - apparently they were having a lot of trouble finding anyone willing to come forward and bare witness against this particular person (he broke into my car and was caught with items belonging to me on his person). At the time he was out on bail after 3 serious assault charges plus a few burglaries - lets just say the Guards wanted to see him go down and really really wanted a witness against him so were delighted when I said I would testify that the property they recovered was mine.

The clerk of court (who is a neighbour of my mother's) and I had the following conversation:
'I'm pretty sure there is an alternative'.
'No, there isn't - just swear on the Bible ffs!'
'No.'
'you always were a troublemaker.'
'Bite me - if you want me to testify, give me an alternative oath or I'm going back to work now.'
'I'll tell your mother on you.'
'Do that - but I should warn you, she'll take the head off you.'
'Stand over there and I'll get back to you' *glare*

The clerk never did get back to me, 2 hours later the defendant pleaded guilty so I wasn't called, the clerk complained to my mother and mother went through the clerk without taking a short cut.

My Mam has a vicious tongue on her.

Mind me asking how long ago that was? I've never had an issue with taking the affirmation, personally if I met a clerk like that I'd refuse to take the oath regardless of the consequences.

Liamario

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's why I was hoping to be called to the stand to force the issue - apparently they were having a lot of trouble finding anyone willing to come forward and bare witness against this particular person (he broke into my car and was caught with items belonging to me on his person). At the time he was out on bail after 3 serious assault charges plus a few burglaries - lets just say the Guards wanted to see him go down and really really wanted a witness against him so were delighted when I said I would testify that the property they recovered was mine.

The clerk of court (who is a neighbour of my mother's) and I had the following conversation:
'I'm pretty sure there is an alternative'.
'No, there isn't - just swear on the Bible ffs!'
'No.'
'you always were a troublemaker.'
'Bite me - if you want me to testify, give me an alternative oath or I'm going back to work now.'
'I'll tell your mother on you.'
'Do that - but I should warn you, she'll take the head off you.'
'Stand over there and I'll get back to you' *glare*

The clerk never did get back to me, 2 hours later the defendant pleaded guilty so I wasn't called, the clerk complained to my mother and mother went through the clerk without taking a short cut.

My Mam has a vicious tongue on her.

I've never met your mammy, but I love her

Bannasidhe

Beruthiel wrote: »

There you are in an Irish court, talking to the court clerk, and that's an actual, real conversation!
Only in Ireland.

I was laughing - the clerk was not.

Bloodwing wrote: »

Mind me asking how long ago that was? I've never had an issue with taking the affirmation, personally if I met a clerk like that I'd refuse to take the oath regardless of the consequences.

Would be coming up to the 3 year mark soon - I remember as I was about to trade in that car as I needed a bigger car to fit 2 child seats plus 3 adults plus 2 dogs and instead had to go through the insurance rigmarole - possibly I agree to testify out of sheer annoyance at being forced to deal with an insurance company.

I kept insisting there must be an alternative and the clerk kept insisting there wasn't and frankly failed to understand why I even had an issue.

Liamario wrote: »

I've never met your mammy, but I love her

The clerk got off lightly compared to the Art teacher who rang her looking for me and proceeded to complain about her grandson to her... or the Nun who complained me for questioning Papal infallibly...

All her geese and swans and woe betide anyone who dares to suggest we arn't perfect.

Mind you, she's quiet in comparison to my Nan - that woman was a force of nature.

Sarky

Wait, that was 3 years ago? I understand from previous posts that you're pretty conclusively a grown adult*, and someone tried the "I'll tell yer ma" line on you!?

*I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Wait, that was 3 years ago? I understand from previous posts that you're pretty conclusively a grown adult*, and someone tried the "I'll tell yer ma" line on you!?

*I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Yup - was well on the 'wrong' side of 40 at the time and was urged by the guards to testify as in a certain light I look like a veh respectable and all round upstanding citizen.

Plus, some of the stuff taken from my car was work related so had the 'logo' of a certain university all over it (i.e a really ****ty laptop and enough waffle on headed notepaper to account for half a rain forest) for extra added grown-upness.

lazygal

I was called for jury duty a couple of years ago in the Central Criminal Court. It was made clear in the documentation and on the days we had to attend that the option of affirming or swearing on a Koran/other relevant religious book was available. I don't remember it being a big hidden secret.

I have heard from people I know in the legal profession that those who chose to affirm and those of non-Christian faiths who ask for other books can be looked on in a less than favourable light. There's no recent studies to show whether jurors or witnesses are viewed differently for non bible affirmations AFAIK though.

Sarky

Sh*tty laptop? Aw, don't dash my hopes, I just convinced my supervisor to get me a desktop

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

Sh*tty laptop? Aw, don't dash my hopes, I just convinced my supervisor to get me a desktop

Hahahahahahahahahaha

I'm sure it'll be grand.


Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

I was called for jury duty a couple of years ago in the Central Criminal Court. It was made clear in the documentation and on the days we had to attend that the option of affirming or swearing on a Koran/other relevant religious book was available. I don't remember it being a big hidden secret.

I have heard from people I know in the legal profession that those who chose to affirm and those of non-Christian faiths who ask for other books can be looked on in a less than favourable light. There's no recent studies to show whether jurors or witnesses are viewed differently for non bible affirmations AFAIK though.

Damn - I should have asked for a Koran and watched them freak...

I just mentioned it to the guard as a btw kinda thing as I noticed everyone was swearing on the Bible so I thought better say something before I get up there. I thought it would be a case of 'oh, thanks for telling us, no problemo.'

I really was amazed at the attitude shown but thought it was a once off 'oh look here comes yer wan the troublemaker' by the clerk but then atheist friend told me she had asked when called for jury duty and she met the same response (without the 'I'll tell your Ma' part - the clerks don't know her Ma as her Ma lives in Carlow).

TwoShedsJackson

lazygal wrote: »

. It was made clear in the documentation and on the days we had to attend that the option of affirming or swearing on a Koran/other relevant religious book was available.

Is there an alternative to swearing on some religious book or another?

Sarky

I'd swear on the Satanic Verses. For the laugh, like. I mean swearing on the bible is about as significant as swearing on Fifty Shades of Grey.

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

I'd swear on the Satanic Verses. For the laugh, like. I mean swearing on the bible is about as significant as swearing on Fifty Shades of Grey.

I'm rather fond of The Annals of Loch Cé and I certainly have more 'faith' in it than any 'Holy Book'...

Morag

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Is there an alternative to swearing on some religious book or another?

There is you affirm rather then swear, basically you hold up your hand and promise to tell the truth and it's a legally binding oath, no books, no mention of deity. Did it myself over 10 years ago.


Any court clerk who does not know this should be sacked imo.
It's not new and is covered by the The Oaths Act from 1888.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0004/sec0018.html

Bloodwing

I must ask if i can swear on this next time I'm in court.....



Then we'll see who looks down on me!!

My favorite example of the oath going wrong has to be the day a young Guard stood in the box for the first time, picked up the bible and proceeded to caution the Judge. Poor lad died right there in the box.

Tim Robbins

Bloodwing wrote: »

I must ask if i can swear on this next time I'm in court.....



Then we'll see who looks down on me!!

My favorite example of the oath going wrong has to be the day a young Guard stood in the box for the first time, picked up the bible and proceeded to caution the Judge. Poor lad died right there in the box.

What would happen if you were in court and ask to swear on the Bible and you said "F*ck that piece of sh*t" and thumped it?

Kidchameleon

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It's my country too.

I'm curious, why do you get so offended by a couple of sentences in a document. Sentences that have absolutely no effect on your life?

Look if you swear on a bible with views like yours, it makes you a hypocrite, that's not an insult, that's a fact. At the end of the day you don't have to and I'm glad you were not put in that position in the end.

Oh yes I do have a child by the way.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I'm curious, why do you get so offended by a couple of sentences in a document. Sentences that have absolutely no effect on your life?

Look if you swear on a bible with views like yours, it makes you a hypocrite, that's not an insult, that's a fact. At the end of the day you don't have to and I'm glad you were not put in that position in the end.

Oh yes I do have a child by the way.

Kid - if you don't get it by now I'm not wasting any more time explaining it to you. Perhaps someone with more patience than I will be willing.

You are also free with bandying words like hypocrite around - given that I was clear that I refuse to swear an oath on a Bible I am not sure you know what this word means - you are certainly not using it correctly.
Either that or you don't bother actually reading what people say before leaping to insult slinging.

If you are content to have your child indoctrinated, that is your choice. You do not have the right to make that choice for other parents.

iguana

robindch wrote: »

Luckily, Popette only visits from her distant home occasionally.

Otherwise, well, it's like a strange mixture of Dana, John Waters (whom she admires as "an intellectual"), an audio version of the Alive trashzine, EWTN and Herr Ratzinger all rolled into one.

Frankly, she's hard to deal with, though on the plus side, her religious beliefs have encouraged her entire extended family to become enthusiastic atheists.

For the longest time I have been reading your posts, thinking popette was your wife. I was always baffled imagining how your family worked.

Peregrinus

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What would happen if you were in court and ask to swear on the Bible and you said "F*ck that piece of sh*t" and thumped it?

Contempt of court. Exactly the same would happen if you expressed your disdain in a similar fashion for an invitation to make a non-religious affirmation.

Being an atheist is not a licence to be an *rsehole!

Tim Robbins

Peregrinus wrote: »

Contempt of court. Exactly the same would happen if you expressed your disdain in a similar fashion for an invitation to make a non-religious affirmation.

Being an atheist is not a licence to be an *rsehole!

Yeah but you were asked to swear on the Bible.

robindch

iguana wrote: »

[...] thinking popette was your wife [...]

!

Just Like Heaven

Laughter would erupt, just like when anything else is thumped.

BizzyC

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah but you were asked to swear on the Bible.

WTF???
So declining to swear on a Bible is the same as physically abusing the book and cursing in court?
What do you expect Muslims/Jews to do in this situation, swear on a Christian Bible?

I actually think it's much better to have a legal affirmation than a religious one.
I don't believe in the Bible, so making me put my hand on it and say a few words means nothing to me.

I'm surprised they don't just get people to sign a legally binding document before testifying.
"You lied under oath"
"You made me swear an oath to a fictitious deity, how exactly is that legally binding"

Penn

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What would happen if you were in court and ask to swear on the Bible and you said "F*ck that piece of sh*t" and thumped it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6IajS-J7kI

Peregrinus

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah but you were asked to swear on the Bible.

So a polite refusal is beyond you?

lazygal

Peregrinus wrote: »

Being an atheist is not a licence to be an *rsehole!

This.

If I was selected to be on a jury when I was on jury service I'd simply say that I would affirm rather than swear. If the reactions were :eek::eek::mad::mad::mad: I'd still remain my calm self until the person being all weird about it composed himself or herself. No point getting your knickers in a twist about it, and I say that as someone who felt a bit sick (maybe it was morning sickness though....) looking at the picture of recent garda reserves all holding bibles.

Peregrinus

lazygal wrote: »

If I was selected to be on a jury when I was on jury service I'd simply say that I would affirm rather than swear. If the reactions were :eek::eek::mad::mad::mad: I'd still remain my calm self until the person being all weird about it composed himself or herself. No point getting your knickers in a twist about it, and I say that as someone who felt a bit sick (maybe it was morning sickness though....) looking at the picture of recent garda reserves all holding bibles.

I'm not doubting what Bannasidhe says, but in my experience what happened to her is not typical. If, when invited to swear, a witness, juror or whatever says "may I affirm instead?"?, the usual answer is "yes, certainly", and there is no drama. Unless, of course, you create drama by thumping the bible and flinging it across the room. Which is where the *rseholery comes in.

Brian Shanahan

Peregrinus wrote: »

Contempt of court.

And here was I thinking the bible was a religious tract, not a court official.

Peregrinus

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

And here was I thinking the bible was a religious tract, not a court official.

I think you'll find if you conduct yourself in the courtroom in the fashion suggested, the same consequences will follow regardless of precisely which object you throw out of your pram.