My unborn child is going to hell

lazygal

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

And here was I thinking the bible was a religious tract, not a court official.

Conduct unbecoming to the dignity of the court is contempt, whether its shouting, refusing to cooperate, or having a hissy fit because you want to make a point about being a non bible affirmer. Acting properly and like a normal grown adult will usually stand one in good stead and make life easier to navigate.

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not doubting what Bannasidhe says, but in my experience what happened to her is not typical. If, when invited to swear, a witness, juror or whatever says "may I affirm instead?"?, the usual answer is "yes, certainly", and there is no drama. Unless, of course, you create drama by thumping the bible and flinging it across the room. Which is where the *rseholery comes in.

That is what I expected to happen! I certainly didn't expect to be threatened with me Mammy.

I even had my ultra polite 'Begging the Court's indulgence...' speech all ready...

Peregrinus

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is what I expected to happen! I certainly didn't expect to be threatened with me Mammy.

I even had my ultra polite 'Begging the Court's indulgence...' speech all ready...

Oh, you're richly entitled to be pissed off, certainly. This court clerk went out of the way to ignore the law in order to treat you with disrespect. You've be entitled to take it further and make a complaint about your treatment.

Bannasidhe

Peregrinus wrote: »

Oh, you're richly entitled to be pissed off, certainly. This court clerk went out of the way to ignore the law in order to treat you with disrespect. You've be entitled to take it further and make a complaint about your treatment.

A lash of my mother's scalpel like tongue is punishment.

Tim Robbins

Peregrinus wrote: »

So a polite refusal is beyond you?

It was a joke.

"Swear" on the "Bible".

McTigs

Is a baptism "on the sly" actually possible? Does the priest not need the consent of parents or guardians before carrying it out?

eyescreamcone

I don't think you even need a priest to do a baptism. Any Xtian can do it.

But to get it recorded and get a baptismal cert you must use a priest (and pay the appropriate fee, of course).

Kidchameleon

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are also free with bandying words like hypocrite around - given that I was clear that I refuse to swear an oath on a Bible I am not sure you know what this word means - you are certainly not using it correctly.
Either that or you don't bother actually reading what people say before leaping to insult slinging.

But you were giving out that you were forced to swear by it? Then you backtracked a few posts later???

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you are content to have your child indoctrinated, that is your choice. You do not have the right to make that choice for other parents.

Where did I say my child was being indoctrinated? (Shes not by the way)

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

But you were giving out that you were forced to swear by it? Then you backtracked a few posts later???



Where did I say my child was being indoctrinated? (Shes not by the way)

No I did not say I was forced to swear - if you read my posts properly I said I was refused an alternative when I mentioned I would not swear but in the end I was not called to the stand.


You don't seem to think it 'matters' eitherway if your child is being indoctrinated or not so why should I suppose you have taken any steps to prevent it? '

robindch

McTigs wrote: »

Is a baptism "on the sly" actually possible? Does the priest not need the consent of parents or guardians before carrying it out?

Nope. Edgardo Mortara's story from the 19th century shows what kind of rather frightening power the church had:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

That kind of thing is unlikely to happen again, but according to Canon Law, anybody -- including an atheist -- can conduct a baptism. The only requirement is that the child is present. No permission is needed from anybody, you're not required to tell anybody once its done, and once done, the Vatican refuses to allow it to be undone.

Charming.

eviltwin

McTigs wrote: »

Is a baptism "on the sly" actually possible? Does the priest not need the consent of parents or guardians before carrying it out?

Nope it seems not. My uncle, a priest, has told me he will bapthise my son against my wishes for "his own good". And if he does what can I do? Sue him? Have him removed from his duties? I'd imagine it would be futile to even try.

kylith

Didn't we have someone on here a while ago who said that the first they knew of their own child's baptism was when a neighbour asked them if they were feeling better, as that was the excuse the grandparents had given for why they weren't there?

OH and I discussed the surprise baptism situation a while ago (his mum's a bit of a Jesus freak) and he said that if she was stupid enough to do it she'd better enjoy it, because she'd never lay eyes on the child again.

Tim Robbins

eviltwin wrote: »

Nope it seems not. My uncle, a priest, has told me he will bapthise my son against my wishes for "his own good". And if he does what can I do? Sue him? Have him removed from his duties? I'd imagine it would be futile to even try.

Get him baptised as a Protestant. That should get his wick up.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

Nope it seems not. My uncle, a priest, has told me he will bapthise my son against my wishes for "his own good". And if he does what can I do? Sue him? Have him removed from his duties? I'd imagine it would be futile to even try.

How would you let your child be in a position where that's possible? If a relative of mine or my husband said that you can bet they wouldn't be allowed the chance to perform a baptism against our expressed wishes.

matrim

Wasn't there a case a couple of years ago about a baptism happening without the parents knowledge, although it may not have been in Ireland

For me, if it was just someone doing a quick splash and prayer behind my back themselves I wouldn't mind so much. I'd be a bit annoyed but as it doesn't do any harm and was well intentioned I'd probably let it go. It would depend on the situation / reaction of the person etc

However if it was an official recorded baptism by a priest I would be looking to get the record of it undone as it was entering my child into an organisation without my knowledge / concent

eviltwin

lazygal wrote: »

How would you let your child be in a position where that's possible? If a relative of mine or my husband said that you can bet they wouldn't be allowed the chance to perform a baptism against our expressed wishes.

It wouldn't happen, my family don't see my kids anymore. But its not the point, the point is really that my wishes to not have my child bapthised are seen as unimportant and almost neglectful in my parental duties and society thinks I should just do it cause itsn't it a nice day out etc. It just really grinds my gears.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

It wouldn't happen, my family don't see my kids anymore. But its not the point, the point is really that my wishes to not have my child bapthised are seen as unimportant and almost neglectful in my parental duties and society thinks I should just do it cause itsn't it a nice day out etc. It just really grinds my gears.

We got a bit of that, mainly from the a la carte brigade. We just let them rattle on and didn't engage. I think they've gotten the message!

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

We got a bit of that, mainly from the a la carte brigade. We just let them rattle on and didn't engage. I think they've gotten the message!

What amuses me now after all the crap I had to listen to back in the day is that my 30 year old nephew is really p*ssed with his mother for having him baptised and wants to know why she didn't have the ovaries to do what I did.

Son likes to taunt his cousin with 'ha ha - you're baptised and I'm not' knowing it works every time

Tim Robbins

lazygal wrote: »

We got a bit of that, mainly from the a la carte brigade. We just let them rattle on and didn't engage. I think they've gotten the message!

I hate the way the a la carte brigade think you are being extreme if you are being honest. Only in Ireland...

Brian Shanahan

matrim wrote: »

Wasn't there a case a couple of years ago about a baptism happening without the parents knowledge, although it may not have been in Ireland

For me, if it was just someone doing a quick splash and prayer behind my back themselves I wouldn't mind so much. I'd be a bit annoyed but as it doesn't do any harm and was well intentioned I'd probably let it go. It would depend on the situation / reaction of the person etc

However if it was an official recorded baptism by a priest I would be looking to get the record of it undone as it was entering my child into an organisation without my knowledge / concent

If I, an atheist, went up to Vladimir Putin, a Russian Orthodox, and splashed him with holy water while saying the perscribed words, then it would be an official baptism in the eyes of the catholic church. That's the thing with catholic baptisms, as long as the formula is kept, they all are official.

matrim

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

If I, an atheist, went up to Vladimir Putin, a Russian Orthodox, and splashed him with holy water while saying the perscribed words, then it would be an official baptism in the eyes of the catholic church. That's the thing with catholic baptisms, as long as the formula is kept, they all are official.

Yes, but it wouldn't be recorded or documented anywhere, so the only one who would know would be the person who did it.

I can see why some people would be very offended by it happening but for me that case wouldn't make a difference.

Bannasidhe

matrim wrote: »

Yes, but it wouldn't be recorded or documented anywhere, so the only one who would know would be the person who did it.

I can see why some people would be very offended by it happening but for me that case wouldn't make a difference.

It burns you know.

eviltwin

matrim wrote: »

Yes, but it wouldn't be recorded or documented anywhere, so the only one who would know would be the person who did it.

I can see why some people would be very offended by it happening but for me that case wouldn't make a difference.

But the point is its unacceptable!!!! Its like someone putting meat in a vegetarians dinner because they think they need the protein. You can argue "no harm done" but the point is the parent, an adult, has expressed their wishes and its just being ignored. The fact someone would even consider bapthising a child against the will of their parents is awful.

matrim

eviltwin wrote: »

But the point is its unacceptable!!!! Its like someone putting meat in a vegetarians dinner because they think they need the protein. You can argue "no harm done" but the point is the parent, an adult, has expressed their wishes and its just being ignored. The fact someone would even consider bapthising a child against the will of their parents is awful.

You're right it is wrong and you've every right to be annoyed / upset if it happens. I'll fully support that.

For me, it depends on the person and their reason for doing it. I would be annoyed but how far I took that would depend on their reaction and if we had previously spoken about it.

But then again I've already accepted that this will happen with my kids. My GF is an a la carte catholic. We've had the discussion about it and we've agreed that she can splash some water and say a prayer herself so long as it's nowhere near a church. She get's her piece of mind that if anything happens the kid has been baptised, I get that it's not in a church and there's no communnion / confirmation etc.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

That kind of thing is unlikely to happen again, but according to Canon Law, anybody -- including an atheist -- can conduct a baptism. The only requirement is that the child is present. No permission is needed from anybody, you're not required to tell anybody once its done, and once done, the Vatican refuses to allow it to be undone.

I'm sure I've mentioned on this forum before how, in Dublin not more than 30 years ago, my mother's neighbour did the aul' sprinkle on her grandchild's head, in her kitchen sink, without the permission or knowledge of the child's parents. IIRC she discussed this with the parish priest beforehand, too, so he wasn't opposed...

eviltwin wrote: »

Nope it seems not. My uncle, a priest, has told me he will bapthise my son against my wishes for "his own good". And if he does what can I do? Sue him? Have him removed from his duties? I'd imagine it would be futile to even try.

If he's threatening you, I can think of something every priest in Ireland if not the world is ****ing themselves about being alleged of. An upstanding citizen such as yourself would never make such an allegation falsely - but can he be sure that you wouldn't? :cool:

Peregrinus

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

If I, an atheist, went up to Vladimir Putin, a Russian Orthodox, and splashed him with holy water while saying the perscribed words, then it would be an official baptism in the eyes of the catholic church. That's the thing with catholic baptisms, as long as the formula is kept, they all are official.

No, it wouldn't. It would be a nullity. Putin is already baptised; he cannot be baptised again.

If you went up to an unbaptised person and did that, it wouldn't be an "official" baptism. It would (arguably) be a sacramentally valid baptism, but definitely not an "official" baptism, because Catholic canon law explicitly forbids the baptism of an adult against his will (or the baptism of a child against his parents' will). So it would be an "official" baptism only in the sense that if you murdere him that would be an "official" murder.

Latatian

Recently came across a book of ethics for nursing students which explicitly encouraged nurses to baptise children at risk of death even if the parents were opposed. Thankfully not a recent one...