My unborn child is going to hell

Sarky

Ugh, that would be a dealbreaker. I've permanently cut people out of my life for much less.

Cool Mo D

Doctor DooM wrote: »

People argue they don't sometimes, but I've read them claiming 85% of Ireland is Catholic, so I don't see how they're not. To be honest, they're delibrately nebulous in general about admitting either way.

Seeing as 86.8% of people claimed to be Catholic in the last census, I hardly see how that's evidence that they're using baptism figures. No-one has shown at all that a membership roll or the church exists, or that they count everyone who was ever baptised as Catholic for any practical purpose.

Although I don't agree with bowing to parental pressure to keep them happy, baptism is an utterly meaningless ceremony, and it won't make a blind bit of difference if a child is or isn't baptised.

EGAR

OH's mother was fit to be tied when I informed her that our son would not be baptised. She threatened *extreme unction* and she would *take him to the tap herself*. In all fairness to her, she was very religious and her whole life was steeped in the RC faith.


However, OH is a lapsed RC and I am nothing at all and it is our child so we are making the decisions NOT the grandparents. We decided on de-escalation as it would have been easy to have a huge row, fall out etc. Obviously, that was not an option so we simply sat her down and explained that to her without making a huge fuss. She was assured that he can make up his own mind once he was old enough, so we kind of gave her a lifeline out of her dilemma. There wasn't another word out of her afterwards.

She passed on 3 years ago and is much missed by all of us.

sbsquarepants

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Well- no.

The Catholic church in Ireland often attempt to use the number of people baptised in order to influence official matters.

People argue they don't sometimes, but I've read them claiming 85% of Ireland is Catholic, so I don't see how they're not. To be honest, they're delibrately nebulous in general about admitting either way.

You don't care about statistics, but the government does, and what they do affects me and you. Our children have historically had time in school wasted on religion they don't care about or worse, they become indoctrinated because they don't hear of the alternatives. So everyone- except the Catholic church and its devout followers- are hurt.

I also find it quite astounding that you consider it perfectly fine to tell all those little white lies about something as precious as the raising of your child. Surely not a good starting point.

The statistic the government cares about is the census, they don't ask the church how many members they have, they ask the people themselves.

And it's a bit simplistic to say it's wrong to tell little white lies, to your kids or to anyone else. Do you tell your missus that her arse does in fact look huge in her favourite jeans, or that the dinner she lovingly prepared tastes like shít? Do you tell your kids there is no santa? White lies are a part of everday life, don't pretend otherwise.

lynski wrote: »

1. you may be happy to life like that, and you are not alone, but thankfully the op and many others, like me, are not. Why thankfully? because without people to stand up to the status quo in this country there would not be an educate together option in schooling, there would still be Magdalene laundries and all sorts of other crap happening here.
2. family harmony at the price of one family member's conscience is not harmony, it is bullying.
3. thankfully we are all different as the world would be a boring place if we were all the same.
4. kid does not know now, but will know in the future and no matter what you say being counted in their stats grates at me.
Finally, if their stats did not matter so much then count me out would still be operational and opting out would be no harder then getting in (sprinkle of magic water, and are you sure? sign here and good bye). they want their numbers and they want to trade on your name, if you are happy for them to do that then good for you, I am not and my opinion is as valid as yours.

Have i suggested otherwise?
I'm just saying, in my opinion, i would not fall out with my family over some "ceremony" that i find meaningless. Apparently you ascribe great signifigance to it, and that's perfectly fine and valid, each to their own. It's just not a view i share. If the op wishes to assert her parental independence then thats great, go for it, we should all think for ourselves. It's just not something i personally would stress or fight about.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Seeing as 86.8% of people claimed to be Catholic in the last census, I hardly see how that's evidence that they're using baptism figures. No-one has shown at all that a membership roll or the church exists, or that they count everyone who was ever baptised as Catholic for any practical purpose.

Although I don't agree with bowing to parental pressure to keep them happy, baptism is an utterly meaningless ceremony, and it won't make a blind bit of difference if a child is or isn't baptised.

This is my point.
If i have somehow stated it wrongly or obscurely, then this is what i meant.

joseph brand

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's basically the same as kids having a water fight in the summer. It won't do him any harm. Won't do him any good either, but certainly no harm.


Op your father i'm sure loves his grand child and in his mind probably thinks he's helping. You two obviously have some issues and this is just a flash point, i doubt the anger has anything to do with the supposed "issue".
It's your call to make of course, but at the end of the day, a splash of water isn't going to harm anybody. I'd probably be inclined to let him do his voodoo and rest happy in the knowledge that he's saved a little soul from damnation. At the end of the day, has being baptised ever been a hindrance or an obstacle to you? Why would it be any different for your child?
I look on it as the same thing as allowing someone to win a game to cheer them up - you know you could have beat them, what does it matter what they know, they're happy, you're happy everyones a winner.

+1.
It's more important for the OP's parents to see their grandkids (everyone benefits, they're great babysitters), than to try to win over your father. Try to stay on good terms, even though you know it's wrong.

Remember, at least your child/ children will not face this hassle when they are older, nor their children, and their children's children. Many of us have faced similar situations, but only time will sort this. Ireland is changing. For the better.

My Dad said to my sister a couple of years ago, "It's a pity that we won't get to see you in heaven, because you don't go to mass". My sister was shocked and bewildered. She was put in a difficult situation, to put it mildly. I can't remember what her reply was (I wasn't present), if there was any.

Now that I think about it, he never said that to ME! Ah cheers Dad. :rolleyes:

iguana

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The statistic the government cares about is the census, they don't ask the church how many members they have, they ask the people themselves.

Wrong in the case of education, especially primary school places, the batismal figures are THE most important figures as they are available year on year (even for term on term if needs be) and the census is not.

irishh_bob

joseph brand wrote: »

+1.
It's more important for the OP's parents to see their grandkids (everyone benefits, they're great babysitters), than to try to win over your father. Try to stay on good terms, even though you know it's wrong.

Remember, at least your child/ children will not face this hassle when they are older, nor their children, and their children's children. Many of us have faced similar situations, but only time will sort this. Ireland is changing. For the better.

My Dad said to my sister a couple of years ago, "It's a pity that we won't get to see you in heaven, because you don't go to mass". My sister was shocked and bewildered. She was put in a difficult situation, to put it mildly. I can't remember what her reply was (I wasn't present), if there was any.

Now that I think about it, he never said that to ME! Ah cheers Dad. :rolleyes:

i often wonder if people who come out with stuff like " its a pity we wont see you in heaven cause you dont go to mass " , are they closet fascists ( with a small f ) who long to have a wee bit of authority over someone in some little way , people like this are often mild mannered in nearly every other aspect of thier lives , its incredibly silly but is quite common

gbee

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

Bringing a child up from infancy in religion is child abuse. Forcing you to Baptise your child will be seen as abuse to you by the courts.

Contact the nearest sexual violence clinic.

irishh_bob

Doctor DooM wrote: »

So basically, you think it's ok to lie to your parents, lie to the Catholic church, then lie to the school?

Not a great start to a kids life.

your being a little pompous , people lie all the time in order to spare others feelings , ive no time for people who make too much of a virtue of honesty , its a form of arrogance and has no place in reality

Mark Hamill

irishh_bob wrote: »

your being a little pompous , people lie all the time in order to spare others feelings , ive no time for people who make too much of a virtue of honesty , its a form of arrogance and has no place in reality

Is that the Catholic teaching on honesty? Because that would explain a lot...

robindch

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Is that the Catholic teaching on honesty?

That'll be Mental Reservation you're thinking of.

kylith

Sharrow wrote: »

I know someone who went away for the weekend and left the 6 month old with the grand parents to be told some weeks later by a neighbour that the christening was a lovely affair and it was a shame her and her husband had been sick with a vomiting bug but that the grandparents managed well with out them.

Words cannot describe how furious I would be. They'd be marched right down to church to confess their duplicity and get that bloody baptismal cert ripped up before I reported them for entering my child into a contract without permission.

irishh_bob

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Is that the Catholic teaching on honesty? Because that would explain a lot...

your smugness is annoying , most people cant afford the luxury of absolute honesty all the time

Bannasidhe

irishh_bob wrote: »

your smugness is annoying , most people cant afford the luxury of absolute honesty all the time

But but arn't lies sins and shouldn't all Christians strive to avoid sin

irishh_bob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But but arn't lies sins and shouldn't all Christians strive to avoid sin

im not a christian , im not speaking from a christian POV

Bannasidhe

irishh_bob wrote: »

im not a christian , im not speaking from a christian POV

Apologies.

I misunderstood where you were coming from.

irishh_bob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Apologies.

I misunderstood where you were coming from.

still stand by what i said , high minded ideals like never ever lieing is a luxury few can afford

sbsquarepants

Exactly, the whole you should never lie to your kids thing is absolute crap. Wait till you've sat through one of their school plays and when they come down to you and say "how was it?, or "was i good?"- see how absolute honesty works then.
There is nothing wrong with little white lies, anyone who tells you they think otherwise is telling a big black lie!

sbsquarepants

iguana wrote: »

Wrong in the case of education, especially primary school places, the batismal figures are THE most important figures as they are available year on year (even for term on term if needs be) and the census is not.

I didn't actually know that, but it makes no great difference. I went to a catholic school and i wasn't indoctrinated, i didn't even do religion (well in secondary i didn't, primary i did). My kids go to catholic schools, i've told them if they don't want to do it they don't have to - they both still do, mostly because it's an easier way of passing an hour than sitting it out somewhere else. They are actually thought the basics of a wide range of religions, which i think is a good thing. Lack of knowledge on any subject is hardly a sound foundation to base a decision on!
What really molds their way of thinking is what they observe in their lives and what they get from me and from their mother and extended families is freedom to think for themselves - be an atheist or be a monk or a nun, i don't care, it's up to them. That's what will have the lasting impact on their lives, not some meaningless ceremony when they were infants.

iguana

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I didn't actually know that, but it makes no great difference.

Tell that to all the non Catholics who can't get their children into a school. Or what about all the state resources that are spent on attempting to indoctrinate kids instead of teaching subjects that are actually useful, like the math and science this country is so bloody woeful at teaching.

As for the I wasn't indoctrinated, therefore it does no harm, I really don't know how to respond to that, I didn't know that how things worked for you and your kids was the same as how it worked for everybody else.

irishh_bob

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Exactly, the whole you should never lie to your kids thing is absolute crap. Wait till you've sat through one of their school plays and when they come down to you and say "how was it?, or "was i good?"- see how absolute honesty works then.
There is nothing wrong with little white lies, anyone who tells you they think otherwise is telling a big black lie!

anyone who insists on never lieing is a pompous idiot

sbsquarepants

Tell that to all the non Catholics who can't get their children into a school. Or what about all the state resources that are spent on attempting to indoctrinate kids instead of teaching subjects that are actually useful, like the math and science this country is so bloody woeful at teaching.

As for the I wasn't indoctrinated, therefore it does no harm, I really don't know how to respond to that, I didn't know that how things worked for you and your kids was the same as how it worked for everybody else.
__________________

There's really no need for the attitude. I can only speak from personal experience, i'm not quite sure where the problem is with that

I've already stated, a couple of times, that this is merely MY OPINION. If yours or anyone elses is different, then that's perfectly fine by me.
But it is MY OPINION that a childs life would be affected more by cutting the grandparents out of it, as has been suggested, than it would by being baptised. That is MY OPINION - nothing more, nothing less.

Some people seem to assume i'm supporting the church or something, which i'm not - i have no time for them. But their power is already gone, they will never be what they once were in this country. A lot of what is being said here is just grand standing and hugely exagerated - a baptism will not damage the child in any way whatsoever, IN MY OPINION.

Galvasean

irishh_bob wrote: »

anyone who insists on never lieing is a pompous idiot

God so :pac:

iguana

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There's really no need for the attitude. I can only speak from personal experience, i'm not quite sure where the problem is with that

I've already stated, a couple of times, that this is merely MY OPINION. If yours or anyone elses is different, then that's perfectly fine by me.
But it is MY OPINION that a childs life would be affected more by cutting the grandparents out of it, as has been suggested, than it would by being baptised. That is MY OPINION - nothing more, nothing less.

Some people seem to assume i'm supporting the church or something, which i'm not - i have no time for them. But their power is already gone, they will never be what they once were in this country. A lot of what is being said here is just grand standing and hugely exagerated - a baptism will not damage the child in any way whatsoever, IN MY OPINION.

Actually you said it 'makes no difference' not it makes no difference, a completely different thing. You were wrong about the use of baptismal records and when that was pointed out, your response was pretty much, so what. The fact is it makes a huge difference. People of other religions and no religion are routinely discriminated against because of the way the church uses it's baptismal records, but your attitude was that it didn't effect you, end of.

It won't effect me either. I have the money to send my children to the only non-denom school in the country so I won't be discriminated against. But I'm not so obtuse to think that me being ok makes it ok that others aren't.

sbsquarepants

iguana wrote: »

Actually you said it 'makes no difference' not it makes no difference, a completely different thing. .

I don't know what this means

iguana wrote: »

You were wrong about the use of baptismal records and when that was pointed out, your response was pretty much, so what. The fact is it makes a huge difference. People of other religions and no religion are routinely discriminated against because of the way the church uses it's baptismal records, but your attitude was that it didn't effect you, end of.

It won't effect me either. I have the money to send my children to the only non-denom school in the country so I won't be discriminated against. But I'm not so obtuse to think that me being ok makes it ok that others aren't.

I didn't know about the baptismal records, i accepted you at your word for that information.
I said it doesn't matter because more or less the exact same percentage of people listed THEMSELVES as catholic in the census - maybe you know better than they do? And also because, from my own personal experience, it (as in catholic school) wasn't quite the nightmare described in some of the more apocalyptic posts.

Again i can only speak from personal experience, but i'm not aware of any enforced baptisms for school reasons or of any groups of people who can't send their kids to school due to religious descrimination. I could be wrong there and if i am i'm open to correction - but as of now, i'm not aware of anything like that.

Finally i'm glad you have money, it must be nice for you! I wish i had some. I don't think descrimination is ok -but i think it does no one any good to carry on like this is some kind of south african apartheid situation.

Finally finally, we are getting a bit off topic here, this started out about the op's father wanting to get his grandchild baptised!

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

irishh_bob wrote: »

anyone who insists on never lieing is a pompous idiot

God so

Well, maybe god is perfectly pompous?

Mark Hamill

irishh_bob wrote: »

your smugness is annoying , most people cant afford the luxury of absolute honesty all the time

My smugness?:pac:

iguana

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't know what this means

Yeah, That should have said, 'you said it makes no difference, not it makes to me.

sbsquarepants

iguana wrote: »

Yeah, That should have said, 'you said it makes no difference, not it makes to me.

Ok. I think i've clarified that point a few times now.

iguana wrote: »

Tell that to all the non Catholics who can't get their children into a school. .

Who are these people? I have never heard of a child who couldn't be accomodated somewhere in the school system.
It's a quarter of a century since i was in catholic primary school and even at that stage there were muslims, jews and jehovas witnesses in my class. My kids "catholic" schools are like the U.N they have every race and creed in them, the reality is they are catholic in name only.

iguana wrote: »

Or what about all the state resources that are spent on attempting to indoctrinate kids instead of teaching subjects that are actually useful, like the math and science this country is so bloody woeful at teaching.

I would imagine the problem there has a lot more to do with the inability to sack teachers who aren't up to scratch than any time spent in religion class.
There would be an awful lot of people (i wouldn't be one of them mind, but they do exist) who would argue that teaching religion was beneficial to them.

Liamario

Here's an updated pic of Fionn.

You can see he looks quite sinister-