My unborn child is going to hell

Liamario

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

tell him he is behind the times and should listen to his pope

http://odondecastro.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html

All unbaptized children go to Heaven when they die, Pope Benedict had finally declared.

Sarky

Also, he has no say in the matter. Refusing to let both your parents see their grandkid might get him to rethink what's more important to him. Especially if your mother doesn't mind the no baptism thing.

juan.kerr

What does your wife/husband think?

Benny_Cake

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

It sounds like your father doesn''t have a clue what the teachings of his own church are to be honest with you. And ultimately it's your decision and not his anyway.

kylith

Well, isn't he just lovely?

I don't want to stir anything, but you might want to keep an eye out for him baptising the child on the sly.

Popinjay

Liamario wrote: »

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

This is what sets me off. If I dared presume to 'countmeout' a niece, nephew, or any other family member, back when it was still possible to do so, I'd be the nasty, horrible, insidious asshole. But if they do it, it's not only 'ok' but it's encouraged.

F*ck that and f*ck it hard.

Liamario

@Sarky

Trust me, I'm well aware his opinion is irrelevant. It was just a horrible arrogant thing to say.

@juan.kerr

The missus doesn't want to get the child baptised either, so there is no problem there.

Liamario

In relation to baptising the child on the sly, I wouldn't put it passed him. Of course, he'd laugh it off after doing it. He wouldn't laugh so much I think if he never saw his grandchild ever again.
The opportunity won't arise, I can assure you.

The more I talk about this, the greater increase in my blood pressure. :mad:

kylith

Liamario wrote: »

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

Sorry, I didn't see this when I posted last.

I'd be very tempted to tell him that if he dared go against your wishes by baptising your child, or suggesting again that he might do so, it would be the last time that he ever laid eyes on the kid.

Yes, I'm being harsh, but if you can't trust him to accept your decision on a matter that is very important to you what can you do?

Liamario

Liamario wrote: »

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

Popinjay wrote: »

This is what sets me off. If I dared presume to 'countmeout' a niece, nephew, or any other family member, back when it was still possible to do so, I'd be the nasty, horrible, insidious asshole. But if they do it, it's not only 'ok' but it's encouraged.
.

Tell him if he does, you'll "countmeout" him

Liamario

bluewolf wrote: »

tell him he is behind the times and should listen to his pope

http://odondecastro.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html

He picks and chooses the parts of the religion he follows; like most.

Popinjay

bluewolf wrote: »

Tell him if he does, you'll "countmeout" him

Iiiiiiiinnnnnnn theeeee rrrreeeeed coooornnneerrrrr... Aaaaallllll the waaayyy frrroommmmm the politiccssss fooorrruummmm.....

Sheeeeee'sssssss bluuuue, sheeeee'ssss biteeeeyyyy and sheeeee'sss on top forrrmmm tonight ladies and gentlemeeeeennn...

strandroad

bluewolf wrote: »

tell him he is behind the times and should listen to his pope

http://odondecastro.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html

All unbaptized children go to Heaven when they die, Pope Benedict had finally declared.

Does it mean that the Church "Heaven claims" all the children in the world who have not been baptised (Muslim, Hindu, atheist, Jedi etc) or just unbaptised children of Catholic parents?

Popinjay

Popinjay wrote: »

My last post

Mother of jaysus, but that's hard to read.

mhge

mhge wrote: »

Does it mean that the Church "Heaven claims" all the children in the world who have not been baptised (Muslim, Hindu, atheist, Jedi etc) or just unbaptised children of Catholic parents?

I have no idea,but the preaching in the article suggests all of them:

That unbaptized children go to heaven, as taught by Pope Benedict, is a very consoling teaching. We see the children of the world dying because of man's inhumanity to man; dying within a pagan or heretical religion and even without religion.

Being pagan is being inhuman to your fellow man, of course.

robindch

kylith wrote: »

you might want to keep an eye out for him baptising the child on the sly.

Good advice.

One of my extended family, let's call her Mary, has a toddler who has a potentially-fatal congenital illness. Her (catholic-fundamentalist) mum decided to do something about it. So at a recent family knees-up, while Mary was off in town, the mum cornered Mary's hubby saying, in the very sweetest of tones, that she wanted to say a prayer over the kid. Not knowing what to do, and certainly not wishing to disrupt what had been, up to that point anyway, a good-natured weekend, hubby agreed.

So the mum and two religious mates entered the hotel bedroom where the kid and hubby were, took out Padre Pio's glove (not the first time this relic has showed up chez nous), began to wave it in circles over the kid's head, while the three of them began a long, long sotto-voce prayer session. Which went on for around 45 minutes until Mary arrived back from town, opened the door into her bedroom to see her mum and two bug-eyed religious fundies still waving Pio's glove in the air, eyes closed, ululating, her husband sitting rigidly in a chair, while the kid ran around the room going "Quack, Quack, Quack". Mary burst into tears and the religious left the room.

I'm not making this up.

fitz0

bluewolf wrote: »

tell him he is behind the times and should listen to his pope

http://odondecastro.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html

All unbaptized children go to Heaven when they die, Pope Benedict had finally declared.

So abortion is saving the souls of the unborn from sin?

Sam V Smith

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

So according to his logic (Religious logic; Irony!) an adult guardian is the deciding factor in whether a child will go to heaven or hell.

I thought the idea was that heaven is there as a reward for you doing good as an individual... to be honest I'm slightly afraid of any person who can't do good without some ultimate end reward for their efforts.

I am a charitable and compassionate person - I go out of my way to help others... and I'm certainly not stacking brownie points. I do noy expect to be rewarded.

I suppose that means I'm going to hell too right?

Yahew

Sam V Smith wrote: »

So according to his logic (Religious logic; Irony!) an adult guardian is the deciding factor in whether a child will go to heaven or hell.

I thought the idea was that heaven is there as a reward for you doing good as an individual... to be honest I'm slightly afraid of any person who can't do good without some ultimate end reward for their efforts.

I am a charitable and compassionate person - I go out of my way to help others... and I'm certainly not stacking brownie points. I do noy expect to be rewarded.

I suppose that means I'm going to hell too right?

Why do you care if you don't believe you are. The catholic church is less fundamentalist that Calvinists - where you have to be chosen - but even if you were religious some other religious group would see you as going to hell.

The OP has a point about his father having no say in baptism, he would have a point if this father said to the child he is going to hell, however your father saying that to you should have little effect, since you don't believe a word of it.

Liamario

Yahew wrote: »

Why do you care if you don't believe you are. The catholic church is less fundamentalist that Calvinists - where you have to be chosen - but even if you were religious some other religious group would see you as going to hell.

The OP has a point about his father having no say in baptism, he would have a point if this father said to the child he is going to hell, however your father saying that to you should have little effect, since you don't believe a word of it.

It's not that he has put doubt to my conviction, it's that he would say that to me about a grandchild. I am disgusted and angry at the hypocracy and venom from a so called christian.

Bannasidhe

Sam V Smith wrote: »

(Religious logic; Irony!)

Religious logic = oxymoron.

fitz0

fitz0 wrote: »

So abortion is saving the souls of the unborn from sin?

s'what the article says

Fenian Army

As an atheist surely you don't believe in hell, so don't let it bother you

Ghost Buster

Fenian Army wrote: »

As an atheist surely you don't believe in hell, so don't let it bother you

Whered ya get that conclusion from?

Sonics2k

Fenian Army wrote: »

As an atheist surely you don't believe in hell, so don't let it bother you

It's the principle of the matter really.

Bloody Nipples

Fenian Army wrote: »

As an atheist surely you don't believe in hell, so don't let it bother you

As an atheist, he most likely believes in the basic human right to freedom of (and from) religion.

Turtwig

Fenian Army wrote: »

As an atheist surely you don't believe in hell, so don't let it bother you

Leaving aside that you can be an atheist and believe in an afterlife or hell or anything similar. Would you like it if your child was forced to be a member of Fianna Fáil without your own or the child's consent? This is a similar principle.

Coriolanus

At what age are you not a child though, if all children unbaptized get to go to heaven?
We're all Gods children right? So even a Hindu adult gets into heaven.
But if you're a Christian, and sin, you might go to hell.
Seems we need to rewrite Pascals wager. The clever thing is to remain unbaptized because then you're a shoo in.

The Mad Hatter

Fenian Army wrote: »

As an atheist surely you don't believe in hell, so don't let it bother you

And if your dad had your firstborn baptised as a protestant...?

Liamario

As has already been mentioned, it's not the threat of hell- it's the fact that he had the bare faced cheek to say something like that; as if that it was going to make me change my mind.

Fenian Army

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

And if your dad had your firstborn baptised as a protestant...?

Wouldn't be keen on him doing something like that against my wishes but the idea of my son being a protestant (or any other Christian denomination) wouldn't be abhorrent to me, my girlfriend is one


As for the father in this case he is probably not trying to be nasty but from his viewpoint it is essential for him to try and get his loved one, his grandchild, baptised so he/she wouldn't suffer hell if something tragic struck... Warped stuff but the motivation isn't nastiness I don't think.

Turtwig

Fenian Army wrote: »

As for the father in this case he is probably not trying to be nasty but from his viewpoint it is essential for him to try and get his loved one, his grandchild, baptised so he/she wouldn't suffer hell if something tragic struck... Warped stuff but the motivation isn't nastiness I don't think.

That's why we call it religion. Get's good people to do some nasty stuff.

deirdremf

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

Liamario wrote: »

In relation to baptising the child on the sly, I wouldn't put it passed him. Of course, he'd laugh it off after doing it. He wouldn't laugh so much I think if he never saw his grandchild ever again.
The opportunity won't arise, I can assure you.

The more I talk about this, the greater increase in my blood pressure. :mad:

I didn't have my kids baptised, either.
I wouldn't be surprised if they have been baptised twice, though: once by each granny in the privacy of their own homes.
I can live with that: dribbling a drop of water on their foreheads, and mumbling a charm over them hardly affected them if it happened, and certainly if they have ben baptised, they were not harmed by it.

My particular problem is with the Church, not with "home grown" solutions by other family members.
I have nothing to do with the organisation, and my kids haven't been involved in it - no sacraments etc.
But wait till they go to school: there will be religion thrown at them from all sides, even in some of the "multidenominational"/educate together schools, where they get both catholicism and protestantism rather than none.

As for your father, it sounds as if there may be other issues there, above and beyond this one?

Boabiegringo

I'm 40 & never been Christened. It's a pain in the Hole. I'm sure if i had been i'd still have the same views i have now but life would have been that little bit easier.

Sonics2k

Boabiegringo wrote: »

I'm 40 & never been Christened. It's a pain in the Hole. I'm sure if i had been i'd still have the same views i have now but life would have been that little bit easier.

How'd you figure?

I wasn't baptized either, my mother raised me to believe I had the choice to do it if I wished, or choose another religion.

At no point can I remember things being harder, the one possible exception being the confirmation, but honestly, like all my friends, my only interest in it was based on the insane amounts of money I'd get.

Boabiegringo

Sonics2k wrote: »

How'd you figure?

I wasn't baptized either, my mother raised me to believe I had the choice to do it if I wished, or choose another religion.

I was also,
But at the age of 8 or 10 or 12 do you really have the choice to be christened when it has been set against from the start? Especially if you don't have an idyllic home life.

I've had problems that were very much complicated by not having been christened i.e. divorce/remarrying that were very much a pain in the hole(don't want to go into the details).
Also growing up in in Glasgow being asked were you a "proddy or a catholic" was quite confusing:D

irishh_bob

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

some people need to latch onto other worldly regimes in order to feel authoritive , no offense but your dad sounds like he has self esteem issues

Bannasidhe

Boabiegringo wrote: »

I've had problems that were very much complicated by not having been christened i.e. divorce/remarrying that were very much a pain in the hole(don't want to go into the details).
Also growing up in in Glasgow being asked were you a "proddy or a catholic" was quite confusing:D

I can understand you not wanting to go into personal details but I can't understand why not being baptised should have anything to do with getting a divorce - which is a civil legal matter. Do you mean an Annulment?

irishh_bob

Yahew wrote: »

Why do you care if you don't believe you are. The catholic church is less fundamentalist that Calvinists - where you have to be chosen - but even if you were religious some other religious group would see you as going to hell.

The OP has a point about his father having no say in baptism, he would have a point if this father said to the child he is going to hell, however your father saying that to you should have little effect, since you don't believe a word of it.

strongly agree that calvinists are more fundamentalist , conservative and authoritarian than catholics

Sonics2k

Boabiegringo wrote: »

I was also,
But at the age of 8 or 10 or 12 do you really have the choice to be christened when it has been set against from the start? Especially if you don't have an idyllic home life.

I've had problems that were very much complicated by not having been christened i.e. divorce/remarrying that were very much a pain in the hole(don't want to go into the details).
Also growing up in in Glasgow being asked were you a "proddy or a catholic" was quite confusing:D

I moved to Ireland at the age of 9 and lived in a fiercely Republican area (Knocknaheeny area in Cork), so I got a lot of the 'proddy vs catholic' crap, even from my teachers!

When my friends Communion and Confirmations came around my mother explained to me the whole deal, what it entailed and I decided against it because even then I thought it was all nonsense, and that was without her influence on me really.

As for the marriage/divorce stuff, it's just yet another reason Church and State need to be separated, to avoid such issues.

Bannasidhe

irishh_bob wrote: »

strongly agree that calvinists are more fundamentalist , conservative and authoritarian than catholics

However since Calvinists believe in pre-determination to their way of thinking whether or not one has water dribbled on one's head or not makes absolutely no difference to the eventual hell/heaven outcome.

megaten

Correct me if I'm wrong but even before they decided that they go to heaven wasn't the official stance that the end up in purgatory forever?

Bannasidhe

megaten wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but even before they decided that they go to heaven wasn't the official stance that the end up in purgatory forever?

trying so hard to think of a pithy quip about Indulgences - buy your time off from Purgatory here type comment....:(

Liamario

No real issues with him. At least nothing unusual. I was just disgusted by his behaviour and attitude.

irishh_bob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However since Calvinists believe in pre-determination to their way of thinking whether or not one has water dribbled on one's head or not makes absolutely no difference to the eventual hell/heaven outcome.

incredibly dogmatic and narrow minded bunch

Bannasidhe

irishh_bob wrote: »

incredibly dogmatic and narrow minded bunch

The Baptists are my particular pet hate - ever since a 17 year old I knew committed suicide after a Baptist prayer 'cure' session in Manchester 'failed' to cure her. Her note said she understood it was her fault as she had failed to open her heart fully to the Lord. I really hate Baptists now...

sbsquarepants

kylith wrote: »

Well, isn't he just lovely?

I don't want to stir anything, but you might want to keep an eye out for him baptising the child on the sly.

It's basically the same as kids having a water fight in the summer. It won't do him any harm. Won't do him any good either, but certainly no harm.

mhge wrote: »

Does it mean that the Church "Heaven claims" all the children in the world who have not been baptised (Muslim, Hindu, atheist, Jedi etc) or just unbaptised children of Catholic parents?

This is a grey area;)

fitz0 wrote: »

So abortion is saving the souls of the unborn from sin?

Eh, this is also a grey area....i think;)

Fenian Army wrote: »

As for the father in this case he is probably not trying to be nasty but from his viewpoint it is essential for him to try and get his loved one, his grandchild, baptised so he/she wouldn't suffer hell if something tragic struck... Warped stuff but the motivation isn't nastiness I don't think.

Don't they say something about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. religious types use the whole good intentions thing as a get out of jail free card i think.

Op your father i'm sure loves his grand child and in his mind probably thinks he's helping. You two obviously have some issues and this is just a flash point, i doubt the anger has anything to do with the supposed "issue".
It's your call to make of course, but at the end of the day, a splash of water isn't going to harm anybody. I'd probably be inclined to let him do his voodoo and rest happy in the knowledge that he's saved a little soul from damnation. At the end of the day, has being baptised ever been a hindrance or an obstacle to you? Why would it be any different for your child?
I look on it as the same thing as allowing someone to win a game to cheer them up - you know you could have beat them, what does it matter what they know, they're happy, you're happy everyones a winner.

Penn

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's basically the same as kids having a water fight in the summer. It won't do him any harm. Won't do him any good either, but certainly no harm.

Don't they say something about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. religious types use the whole good intentions thing as a get out of jail free card i think.

Op your father i'm sure loves his grand child and in his mind probably thinks he's helping. You two obviously have some issues and this is just a flash point, i doubt the anger has anything to do with the supposed "issue".
It's your call to make of course, but at the end of the day, a splash of water isn't going to harm anybody. I'd probably be inclined to let him do his voodoo and rest happy in the knowledge that he's saved a little soul from damnation. At the end of the day, has being baptised ever been a hindrance or an obstacle to you? Why would it be any different for your child?
I look on it as the same thing as allowing someone to win a game to cheer them up - you know you could have beat them, what does it matter what they know, they're happy, you're happy everyones a winner.

I strongly disagree with pretty much all this. It's the OP's (and their partner's) choice whether or not to get the child baptised, and the father, a grown man, should respect their wishes even if he disagrees with them.

This whole "Ah sure it's only a bit of water and a few mumbo-jumbo prayers" doesn't change the fact that the father is out of line demanding this and hinting that he'll have the child baptised against the parent's wishes.

I can only put myself in your shoes OP, but I'd feel the same way you do, and if my father tried to have my child baptised against my wishes, I'd be furious. Hell, last year with the Census, he changed my religion to Roman Catholic when I had it down as No Religion, and I was pretty angry (and I changed it back and made sure he couldn't change it again). This is worse. Forget mumbo-jumbo and it's only a bit of water, it's a matter of principle and if you don't want to have your child baptised, don't give in. He's a grown man, and if he can't deal with it, that's his business.

Liamario

Funnily enough Penn; "You're a grown man, so deal with it", is exactly what I said to him. He didn't like that too much.

Even if I was to concede on this just to keep the peace, it would only serve as a precedent to push holy communion and then confirmation.
Unfortunately, I know what he's like and that is to say that he'd completely go against my wishes, while literally laughing at my protests.

Another amusing thing he said was that by not baptising the child, I'd be taking away my child's ability to choose for itself.

Sarky

I'd be inclined to go down the "If you so much as look like you're praying in my child's direction, you'll never see him/her again" route. Not so much fun paying for a professional babysitter, but this is important to you, and your father is going to have to accept it one way or another.