My unborn child is going to hell

Fenian Army

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

And if your dad had your firstborn baptised as a protestant...?

Wouldn't be keen on him doing something like that against my wishes but the idea of my son being a protestant (or any other Christian denomination) wouldn't be abhorrent to me, my girlfriend is one


As for the father in this case he is probably not trying to be nasty but from his viewpoint it is essential for him to try and get his loved one, his grandchild, baptised so he/she wouldn't suffer hell if something tragic struck... Warped stuff but the motivation isn't nastiness I don't think.

Turtwig

Fenian Army wrote: »

As for the father in this case he is probably not trying to be nasty but from his viewpoint it is essential for him to try and get his loved one, his grandchild, baptised so he/she wouldn't suffer hell if something tragic struck... Warped stuff but the motivation isn't nastiness I don't think.

That's why we call it religion. Get's good people to do some nasty stuff.

deirdremf

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

Liamario wrote: »

In relation to baptising the child on the sly, I wouldn't put it passed him. Of course, he'd laugh it off after doing it. He wouldn't laugh so much I think if he never saw his grandchild ever again.
The opportunity won't arise, I can assure you.

The more I talk about this, the greater increase in my blood pressure. :mad:

I didn't have my kids baptised, either.
I wouldn't be surprised if they have been baptised twice, though: once by each granny in the privacy of their own homes.
I can live with that: dribbling a drop of water on their foreheads, and mumbling a charm over them hardly affected them if it happened, and certainly if they have ben baptised, they were not harmed by it.

My particular problem is with the Church, not with "home grown" solutions by other family members.
I have nothing to do with the organisation, and my kids haven't been involved in it - no sacraments etc.
But wait till they go to school: there will be religion thrown at them from all sides, even in some of the "multidenominational"/educate together schools, where they get both catholicism and protestantism rather than none.

As for your father, it sounds as if there may be other issues there, above and beyond this one?

Boabiegringo

I'm 40 & never been Christened. It's a pain in the Hole. I'm sure if i had been i'd still have the same views i have now but life would have been that little bit easier.

Sonics2k

Boabiegringo wrote: »

I'm 40 & never been Christened. It's a pain in the Hole. I'm sure if i had been i'd still have the same views i have now but life would have been that little bit easier.

How'd you figure?

I wasn't baptized either, my mother raised me to believe I had the choice to do it if I wished, or choose another religion.

At no point can I remember things being harder, the one possible exception being the confirmation, but honestly, like all my friends, my only interest in it was based on the insane amounts of money I'd get.

Boabiegringo

Sonics2k wrote: »

How'd you figure?

I wasn't baptized either, my mother raised me to believe I had the choice to do it if I wished, or choose another religion.

I was also,
But at the age of 8 or 10 or 12 do you really have the choice to be christened when it has been set against from the start? Especially if you don't have an idyllic home life.

I've had problems that were very much complicated by not having been christened i.e. divorce/remarrying that were very much a pain in the hole(don't want to go into the details).
Also growing up in in Glasgow being asked were you a "proddy or a catholic" was quite confusing:D

irishh_bob

Liamario wrote: »

At least according to my tolerant, non-judgemental, catholic father.

All will be ok, as long as I get the child baptised (which is not going to happen).

But he said it to me like it was nothing; like it was a given or something.

I think he also implied that the child would get baptised whether I liked it or not.

I wanted to break his f**king jaw.

some people need to latch onto other worldly regimes in order to feel authoritive , no offense but your dad sounds like he has self esteem issues

Bannasidhe

Boabiegringo wrote: »

I've had problems that were very much complicated by not having been christened i.e. divorce/remarrying that were very much a pain in the hole(don't want to go into the details).
Also growing up in in Glasgow being asked were you a "proddy or a catholic" was quite confusing:D

I can understand you not wanting to go into personal details but I can't understand why not being baptised should have anything to do with getting a divorce - which is a civil legal matter. Do you mean an Annulment?

irishh_bob

Yahew wrote: »

Why do you care if you don't believe you are. The catholic church is less fundamentalist that Calvinists - where you have to be chosen - but even if you were religious some other religious group would see you as going to hell.

The OP has a point about his father having no say in baptism, he would have a point if this father said to the child he is going to hell, however your father saying that to you should have little effect, since you don't believe a word of it.

strongly agree that calvinists are more fundamentalist , conservative and authoritarian than catholics

Sonics2k

Boabiegringo wrote: »

I was also,
But at the age of 8 or 10 or 12 do you really have the choice to be christened when it has been set against from the start? Especially if you don't have an idyllic home life.

I've had problems that were very much complicated by not having been christened i.e. divorce/remarrying that were very much a pain in the hole(don't want to go into the details).
Also growing up in in Glasgow being asked were you a "proddy or a catholic" was quite confusing:D

I moved to Ireland at the age of 9 and lived in a fiercely Republican area (Knocknaheeny area in Cork), so I got a lot of the 'proddy vs catholic' crap, even from my teachers!

When my friends Communion and Confirmations came around my mother explained to me the whole deal, what it entailed and I decided against it because even then I thought it was all nonsense, and that was without her influence on me really.

As for the marriage/divorce stuff, it's just yet another reason Church and State need to be separated, to avoid such issues.

Bannasidhe

irishh_bob wrote: »

strongly agree that calvinists are more fundamentalist , conservative and authoritarian than catholics

However since Calvinists believe in pre-determination to their way of thinking whether or not one has water dribbled on one's head or not makes absolutely no difference to the eventual hell/heaven outcome.

megaten

Correct me if I'm wrong but even before they decided that they go to heaven wasn't the official stance that the end up in purgatory forever?

Bannasidhe

megaten wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but even before they decided that they go to heaven wasn't the official stance that the end up in purgatory forever?

trying so hard to think of a pithy quip about Indulgences - buy your time off from Purgatory here type comment....:(

Liamario

No real issues with him. At least nothing unusual. I was just disgusted by his behaviour and attitude.

irishh_bob

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However since Calvinists believe in pre-determination to their way of thinking whether or not one has water dribbled on one's head or not makes absolutely no difference to the eventual hell/heaven outcome.

incredibly dogmatic and narrow minded bunch

Bannasidhe

irishh_bob wrote: »

incredibly dogmatic and narrow minded bunch

The Baptists are my particular pet hate - ever since a 17 year old I knew committed suicide after a Baptist prayer 'cure' session in Manchester 'failed' to cure her. Her note said she understood it was her fault as she had failed to open her heart fully to the Lord. I really hate Baptists now...

sbsquarepants

kylith wrote: »

Well, isn't he just lovely?

I don't want to stir anything, but you might want to keep an eye out for him baptising the child on the sly.

It's basically the same as kids having a water fight in the summer. It won't do him any harm. Won't do him any good either, but certainly no harm.

mhge wrote: »

Does it mean that the Church "Heaven claims" all the children in the world who have not been baptised (Muslim, Hindu, atheist, Jedi etc) or just unbaptised children of Catholic parents?

This is a grey area;)

fitz0 wrote: »

So abortion is saving the souls of the unborn from sin?

Eh, this is also a grey area....i think;)

Fenian Army wrote: »

As for the father in this case he is probably not trying to be nasty but from his viewpoint it is essential for him to try and get his loved one, his grandchild, baptised so he/she wouldn't suffer hell if something tragic struck... Warped stuff but the motivation isn't nastiness I don't think.

Don't they say something about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. religious types use the whole good intentions thing as a get out of jail free card i think.

Op your father i'm sure loves his grand child and in his mind probably thinks he's helping. You two obviously have some issues and this is just a flash point, i doubt the anger has anything to do with the supposed "issue".
It's your call to make of course, but at the end of the day, a splash of water isn't going to harm anybody. I'd probably be inclined to let him do his voodoo and rest happy in the knowledge that he's saved a little soul from damnation. At the end of the day, has being baptised ever been a hindrance or an obstacle to you? Why would it be any different for your child?
I look on it as the same thing as allowing someone to win a game to cheer them up - you know you could have beat them, what does it matter what they know, they're happy, you're happy everyones a winner.

Penn

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's basically the same as kids having a water fight in the summer. It won't do him any harm. Won't do him any good either, but certainly no harm.

Don't they say something about the road to hell being paved with good intentions. religious types use the whole good intentions thing as a get out of jail free card i think.

Op your father i'm sure loves his grand child and in his mind probably thinks he's helping. You two obviously have some issues and this is just a flash point, i doubt the anger has anything to do with the supposed "issue".
It's your call to make of course, but at the end of the day, a splash of water isn't going to harm anybody. I'd probably be inclined to let him do his voodoo and rest happy in the knowledge that he's saved a little soul from damnation. At the end of the day, has being baptised ever been a hindrance or an obstacle to you? Why would it be any different for your child?
I look on it as the same thing as allowing someone to win a game to cheer them up - you know you could have beat them, what does it matter what they know, they're happy, you're happy everyones a winner.

I strongly disagree with pretty much all this. It's the OP's (and their partner's) choice whether or not to get the child baptised, and the father, a grown man, should respect their wishes even if he disagrees with them.

This whole "Ah sure it's only a bit of water and a few mumbo-jumbo prayers" doesn't change the fact that the father is out of line demanding this and hinting that he'll have the child baptised against the parent's wishes.

I can only put myself in your shoes OP, but I'd feel the same way you do, and if my father tried to have my child baptised against my wishes, I'd be furious. Hell, last year with the Census, he changed my religion to Roman Catholic when I had it down as No Religion, and I was pretty angry (and I changed it back and made sure he couldn't change it again). This is worse. Forget mumbo-jumbo and it's only a bit of water, it's a matter of principle and if you don't want to have your child baptised, don't give in. He's a grown man, and if he can't deal with it, that's his business.

Liamario

Funnily enough Penn; "You're a grown man, so deal with it", is exactly what I said to him. He didn't like that too much.

Even if I was to concede on this just to keep the peace, it would only serve as a precedent to push holy communion and then confirmation.
Unfortunately, I know what he's like and that is to say that he'd completely go against my wishes, while literally laughing at my protests.

Another amusing thing he said was that by not baptising the child, I'd be taking away my child's ability to choose for itself.

Sarky

I'd be inclined to go down the "If you so much as look like you're praying in my child's direction, you'll never see him/her again" route. Not so much fun paying for a professional babysitter, but this is important to you, and your father is going to have to accept it one way or another.

robindch

Liamario wrote: »

Even if I was to concede on this just to keep the peace, it would only serve as a precedent to push holy communion and then confirmation.

You could offer to concede on baptism but only on the strict understanding that he'll never mention religion to you or your kid again.

So far as I'm aware, the majority of catholics believe that baptism is the most important catholic religious ritual, combining the strong emotions concerning a new life, the wish to be seen declaring the child in public, the assertion of ingroup membership, alleged protection from the threat of hellfire and so on. This importance can work to your benefit.

While I don't condone being dishonest in making a false promise to do one's best to ensure the child becomes a catholic, it's certainly not your fault if you're put into a situation where performing some religious ritual is the only way to keep the peace.

The much greater dishonesty lies at the door of whoever's doing the coercion.

Liamario

If there was to be a baptism, there is no way I could be involved in it. I would feel extremely uncomfortable.
As had already been mentioned by others, it's the principle of it and I fear that granting any kind of leeway on it will just set a precedent.
This battle needs to be and will be won for the sake of my child.

robindch

Liamario wrote: »

it's the principle of it

Yes, but the problem on your dad's side is that he views it the same principled-based way, and neither side appear willing or able to concede to the other. If it were me, I'd be prepared to concede on the baptism (also has benefits for school entry), but only on the understanding above -- "this far, and no further".

The alternative, as I've found out myself, is that the religious person could end up spending the rest of their life dropping barbs about you being closed-minded and never stop talking about it. That said, I could be completely wrong, and it could all blow over after a big hug, but that's not something that happens very often with religious arguments.

Perhaps try and make a list of the possible outcomes and see which one causes the least long-term stress, and go for that.

Penn

robindch wrote: »

Liamario wrote: »

it's the principle of it

Yes, but the problem on your dad's side is that he views it the same principled-based way, and neither side appear willing or able to concede to the other.

But those sides aren't equally weighted because the parents have more say than the grandparents.

Liamario, it's you and your partner's choice. Robindch and others have brought up good reasons as to why it might be best to just go along with it. You need to weigh up the pros and cons and decide for yourself, but it has to be your decision. I fully agree that it's the principle of the thing when it comes to your father, but if you can find enough reason to do it regardless, then maybe you should. But don't do it if you don't want to.

And tell him that once your child is 18, if they want to get baptised then and become a Catholic, that's their choice

Mark Hamill

Just tell your dad that if he gets your kid baptised behind your back, that you will get him bar mitzvah'd.

ItsAWindUp

Thread title is fun to sing to the tune of this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOV66-W9QeM

Bannasidhe

Penn wrote: »

But those sides aren't equally weighted because the parents have more say than the grandparents.

Liamario, it's you and your partner's choice. Robindch and others have brought up good reasons as to why it might be best to just go along with it. You need to weigh up the pros and cons and decide for yourself, but it has to be your decision. I fully agree that it's the principle of the thing when it comes to your father, but if you can find enough reason to do it regardless, then maybe you should. But don't do it if you don't want to.

And tell him that once your child is 18, if they want to get baptised then and become a Catholic, that's their choice

I agree. That's what I told the protesters in my family. He can, if he wants, be baptised when he is 18. In the meantime, it is not my decision to make as I cannot make promises on behalf of another human being.
End of story.

I do understand that for many believers this is a serious issue and they genuinely believe they are acting in the best interests of the child. Unfortunately  - what many believers fail to understand is that non-believers can be just as sincere in their convictions. Once I had convinced my mother that I had thought about my stance long and hard and felt it was absolutely the right thing to do - all opposition stopped. 
I am assuming that Liamario's father already got to follow his principles and had Liamario baptised so it seems to me 'Granddad' is now having a strop because Liamario want to follow his own principles not his father's.

Liamario

Unfortunately, I know my father all to well. This wouldn't be dropped.
If I get the child baptised, then they would push communion and confirmation when they come around.

I am strongly against religion and I feel that if I was to allow this to happen, I would be compromising my own (non)beliefs and convictions.

I think this is going to be a case of me setting a precedent, in that not getting your child baptised isn't the end of the world.

It was only a few years ago, my parents thought it was disgraceful for couples to live together before getting married; now they feel the complete opposite.

It's time to make a stand I feel. Becoming an enabler for future generations of my family to be persecuted for not believing in fairy tales needs one person to make a stand.

Beruthiel

sbsquarepants wrote: »

at the end of the day, a splash of water isn't going to harm anybody.

Why would it be any different for your child?

Considering that you are signing your child up (without their permission) to a cult that will never let you leave, it will make a difference to your child.

Stick to your guns Liamario, you're father will get over it.

robindch

Liamario wrote: »

Unfortunately, I know my father all to well. This wouldn't be dropped. If I get the child baptised, then they would push communion and confirmation when they come around.

If you're sure he won't drop ever the topic, even if he makes a promise to -- I think it may be worth asking him, just to be sure you're right in your judgement of him -- then I'd say stick to your guns and go hang the religious crap.

Fun to see how "Jesus is love" pans out in practice.