Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Irish Guitarist · 23-02-2012 10:52AM

Irish bored me to tears in school. To this day I can't construct a single Irish sentence.

I'm not sure if it should be compulsory or not but it should be more interesting or children will never want to learn it. Maybe dub some programmes that children would actually be interested in into Irish and play them to the class. South Park has already been dubbed into Irish by TG4. I saw a brief snippet of it once and the voices were remarkably similar to the real ones. Although I despise South Park I know a lot of teenagers like it so they would probably be more interested in watching that then reading a book.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:01AM

NakedNNettles wrote: »

Yeah it's part of our heritage but totally pointless, and I knew it was pointless all of 20 years ago when it was being forced down my neck.

Lets be honest 5 years in primary and 5 years in secondary, that's 10 years :eek: learning a friggin' language that's only spoken by a few pockets in Ireland. POINTLESS

Now here I am today having emigrated like many others, wishing that something useful had been taught which would have been more beneficial in my day to day life.

Nice moments aren't enough.

Yes lets be honest, if anything the english language was forced down your neck as it is not the official language of this country, you are capable of learning many languages, not everything one learns in education has to be beneficial to what you choose to do in life, you cannot blame education for your failings in life certainly it is an easy option for many people to take but its not the truthful one.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-02-2012 11:05AM

billybudd wrote: »

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background, was it not a nice moment last year when the queen of England spoke Irish in her speech?

No it isn't. I'm living poof that that statement is bull****.

I have even less interest in Frau Windsor than I do in the language.

deise go deo wrote: »

If you were 15 and wanted to stop learning it, then I would have no problem with that, my objection to making it optional is not because I have a personal interest in every individual student learning Irish, but rather because allowing the government to make Irish optional would in essence be allowing them to abdicate their responsibility to the proper promotion of the Irish Language once and for all.
Making Irish optional is a political cop out, I have no intention of allowing the government to take the easy way out, there are serious, long overdue reforms needed in the area of Irish language education, the government needs to tackle those issues before there can be any question of making Irish optional.

Making Irish optional now would be akin to kicking the stool out from under its feet, there needs to be other supports are in place for the language in the education system before that happens.

What we have here is a contraditcion, then. You either support or do not support someone else's choice to discontinue a lanuage. If, at 15, a student, having studied the sujects for several years, can not be trusted to make an informed decision about the continuation of them, there are graver problems with the education system than mere inclusion of said subjects. And, just to be clear, I sid subjects, not Irish.

Your objections are also hypocritcal because they directly affect the people mentioned above. The question is, do you trust the govenemnt to implement a better syllabus that well make students want to learn the languagae?

If yes, what's the problem?
If no, then you are condemning another generation to forced learning when they should really be mkaing that coice for themselves.

I'm not against the teaching of Irish, here. Very few are. But if you want to preserve the langauge, stop using schoolkids as pawns.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:08AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No it isn't. I'm living poof that that statement is bull****.

I have even less interest in Frau Windsor than I do in the language.

What we have here is a contraditcion, then. You either support or do not support someone else's choice to discontinue a lanuage. If, at 15, a student, having studied the sujects for several years, can not be trusted to make an informed decision about the continuation of them, there are graver problems with the education system than mere inclusion of said subjects. And, just to be clear, I sid subjects, not Irish.

Your objections are also hypocritcal because they directly affect the people mentioned above. The question is, do you trust the govenemnt to implement a better syllabus that well make students want to learn the languagae?

If yes, what's the problem?
If no, then you are condemning another generation to forced learning when they should really be mkaing that coice for themselves.

If you want to preserve the langauge, fine. But stop using schoolkids as pawns.

Ironic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-02-2012 11:10AM

billybudd wrote: »

[/B]

Ironic.

In what way?

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:16AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In what way?

Isnt that the argument in both views, using children as a tool to achieve either result? the argument to me is not whether it is useful or not but it should be protected and encouraged as a national treasure, i do not consider myself a mad nationalist but i do respect the history of the state and the Island and like the burren should be protected so should our heritage and our language was a big part of our heritage at one time or another.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-02-2012 11:20AM

billybudd wrote: »

Isnt that the argument in both views, using children as a tool to achieve either result? the argument to me is not whether it is useful or not but it should be protected and encouraged as a national treasure, i do not consider myself a mad nationalist but i do respect the history of the state and the Island and like the burren should be protected so should our heritage and our language was a big part of our heritage at one time or another.

In what way am I using a student as a tool?

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:24AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In what way am I using a student as a tool?

Then all children over a certain age should just be allowed to pick whatever subject they want? leaving behind for instance math for instance? should it be all out freedom of choice or should there be restrictions and if there is restrictions then why?

deise go deo · 23-02-2012 11:25AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What we have here is a contraditcion, then. You either support or do not support someone else's choice to discontinue a lanuage. If, at 15, a student, having studied the sujects for several years, can not be trusted to make an informed decision about the continuation of them, there are graver problems with the education system than mere inclusion of said subjects. And, just to be clear, I sid subjects, not Irish.

Your objections are also hypocritcal because they directly affect the people mentioned above. The question is, do you trust the govenemnt to implement a better syllabus that well make students want to learn the languagae?

If yes, what's the problem?
If no, then you are condemning another generation to forced learning when they should really be mkaing that coice for themselves.

I'm not against the teaching of Irish, here. Very few are. But if you want to preserve the langauge, stop using schoolkids as pawns.

No contradiction really, Choice is fine, but I don't see it as a must have, I have never seen any research that suggests that compulsion is detremental to educational outcomes, therefore making subjects optional is not at the centre of the reforms I think are needed in the education system. I'm not against it per se, I just don't really see it as being a priority.

That said, If you as a 15 year old wanted to stop doing Irish, personally I have no problem with that, I really have no interest in forcing you to learn the language.
Making the subject optional is something that can come about and is not something that I am against in principle, but I do not see it as a one step process, there are many reforms than need to happen before then, its not that I want to force everyone to learn Irish, its that I favor a rational well tought out process that will achieve a balance between what you want, choice, and what I want, the Irish language to continue growing.

Wibbs · 23-02-2012 11:32AM

billybudd wrote: »

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background,

Well thanks for making that assumption for all Irish people. Another pain in the mammaries I have with too many of the overly pro Irish language camp is this kind of assumption.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-02-2012 11:33AM

billybudd wrote: »

Then all children over a certain age should just be allowed to pick whatever subject they want? leaving behind for instance math for instance? should it be all out freedom of choice or should there be restrictions and if there is restrictions then why?

Freedom of choice, full stop. Why should maths be copulsory? Assuming, of course, that a 15 year old has suffiecent skills for everyday usage.

deise go deo wrote: »

No contradiction really, Choice is fine, but I don't see it as a must have, I have never seen anything research that suggests that compulsion is detremental to educational outcomes, therefore making subjects optional is not at the centre of the reforms I think are needed in the education system. I'm not against it per se, I just don't really see it as being a priority.

Problem here is that you're not see the students making the decisions as real human beings. Do you really want to live in a society where choice is something you can live without...?!

Beyond that, like Billy, you seem to want me to prove something I haven't actually stated. I never said it was better, I just said that they should be trusted to pick what they think and feel is relevant.

That said, If you as a 15 year old wanted to stop doing Irish, personally I have no problem with that, I really have no interest in forcing you to learn the language.

So neither of us in favour of it being forced, then.

Making the subject optional is something that can come about and is not something that I am against in principle, but I do not see it as a one step process, there are many reforms than need to happen before then, its not that I want to force everyone to learn Irish, its that I favor a rational well tought out process that will achieve a balance between what you want, choice, and what I want, the Irish language to continue growing.

Until then, who gives a **** about what a 15 year old wants. LEts just muddle on and hope that massive amounts of them suddenly find the language massively inspiring at the age of 16, because what you want it more important than what they want. Don't think it's going to happen and again, I find that very condescending.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:34AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well thanks for making that assumption for all Irish people. Another pain in the mammaries I have with too many of the overly pro Irish language camp is this kind of assumption.

I didnt, i said for me and many others.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:36AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Freedom of choice, full stop. Why should maths be copulsory? Assuming, of course, that a 15 year old has suffiecent skills for everyday usage.

Problem here is that you're not see the students making the decisions as real human beings. Do you really want to live in a society where choice is something you can live without...?!

Beyond that, like Billy, you seem to want me to prove something I haven't actually stated. I never said it was better, I just said that they should be trusted to pick what they think and feel is relevant.

So neither of us in favour of it being forced, then.

Until then, who gives a **** about what a 15 year old wants? Again, I find that very condescending.

Thats fine i was just working out your train of thought on it.

Wibbs · 23-02-2012 11:37AM

billybudd wrote: »

I didnt, i said for me and many others.

Followed by

its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background

Emphasis mine. So yep you did make this assumption for everyone born on this island. Indeed going by what you say this includes people of a non Irish background so long as they're born here. So I stand uncorrected.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 11:41AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Followed by
Emphasis mine. So yep you did make this assumption for everyone born on this island. Indeed going by what you say this includes people of a non Irish background so long as they're born here. So I stand uncorrected.

you took from it what you wanted and thats fine.

Wibbs · 23-02-2012 11:58AM

billybudd wrote: »

you took from it what you wanted and thats fine.

I would love for you to explain how I or anyone else could misread/take from it what they want "(Irish is) an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background". I've noted this as a pattern in these threads too. When statements and very clear ones at that like the above are posted and others ask for further explanation, they're regularly told "they're taking from it what they wanted/they're projecting". Seriously. Can you explain what you mean, because it's as clear as mud, no projecting required from the reader.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 12:18PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I would love for you to explain how I or anyone else could misread/take from it what they want "(Irish is) an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background". I've noted this as a pattern in these threads too. When statements and very clear ones at that like the above are posted and others ask for further explanation, they're regularly told "they're taking from it what they wanted/they're projecting". Seriously. Can you explain what you mean, because it's as clear as mud, no projecting required from the reader.

I never said you where projecting i stated you took from it what you wanted, hardly projecting, from outside of Eire it is an identity that identifies you as Irish, if you want to travel outside the EU and you travel with a Irish passport then your identity is that of a person from Eire.

deise go deo · 23-02-2012 12:20PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Problem here is that you're not see the students making the decisions as real human beings. Do you really want to live in a society where choice is something you can live without...?!

Beyond that, like Billy, you seem to want me to prove something I haven't actually stated. I never said it was better, I just said that they should be trusted to pick what they think and feel is relevant.

So neither of us in favour of it being forced, then.

Until then, who gives a **** about what a 15 year old wants. LEts just muddle on and hope that massive amounts of them suddenly find the language massively inspiring at the age of 16, because what you want it more important than what they want. Don't think it's going to happen and again, I find that very condescending.

If you want the state to spend time and money changing the education system, it should at least be in an effort to make it better. I have never seen anything to suggest that introducing choice will make the system better, in fact it may well make it worse.
That was the experience in England when Languages were made optional.

Choice is not more important than an effective education system

hooradiation · 23-02-2012 12:23PM

Irish being compulsory is a waste of time and resources and that's about as generous as I can find myself be to it.

To paraphrase David Mitchell, there may well be thousands of fluent Irish speakers in the country, but I can also communicate with them just as well, if not better, through English.
And if there is a small percentage of them that don't speak English then they'd want to be very bloody interesting to justify me learning the language.

I can't see any reason to continue making what is essentially a hobby a compulsory part of the national curriculum. If you know Irish and want to teach it to your sprogs, go for it. If you want to gather with other like minded hobbyists and share your knowledge and learn from each other - fine. Be my guest. Maybe we could even set aside some of the money we currently spend on translations of government documents into Irish and constructing the Irish syllabus into a grant fund for those that want to run courses or workshops about Irish.

What we shouldn't be doing is using this as political and nationalistic football and refusing to contemplate it's removal from the curriculum for ill defined reasons amounting to people somehow being less Irish if we did.

The language can't stand on it's own as things are, so lets give it to the people who profess to care about it and wish them the best of luck, help them as best we can and see how it goes.
The alternative is to continue wasting all that time and money on having the majority of people not actually being able to string a sentence together after thirteen or so years continued education

Fluorescence · 23-02-2012 12:41PM

Wibbs wrote: »

So yep you did make this assumption for everyone born on this island. Indeed going by what you say this includes people of a non Irish background so long as they're born here. So I stand uncorrected.

In fairness, Irish DOES form a cultural background for all Irish people. We speak Hiberno-English, which is heavily influenced by Gaeilge (despite the vast majority not having much Irish at all).

So, in that sense he was right.

That said, I don't think enough people want to speak Irish. Really REALLY want, not just a wistful "Oh I'd like to speak a cúpla focal". If, as a nation, we were really serious about Irish we'd have a generation of bilinguals. Languages aren't hard, and especially not for children (who just sponge it up). The only problem is they can't see why they are learning it, and teachers can't see what they're doing wrong.

It doesn't help that to get into primary teaching courses you just need a C3 in Higher Irish. That is no acceptable level to converse with a classroom of kids entirely as gaeilge.

Solair · 23-02-2012 12:46PM

The biggest problem is that you would have to decommission a lot of Irish teachers. And what would they do?!

I think it should be optional. However, if it remains compulsory the exam should be optional. The classes should be more about teaching people some basic communicative skills in Irish and some cultural stuff.

People who are interested would take it on as a full, examinable subject.

Wibbs · 23-02-2012 12:49PM

billybudd wrote: »

I never said you where projecting i stated you took from it what you wanted, hardly projecting, from outside of Eire it is an identity that identifies you as Irish, if you want to travel outside the EU and you travel with a Irish passport then your identity is that of a person from Eire.

Eh wut?

You stated that as far as you are concerned the Irish language is an identity of all Irish people. Anyway moving on...

fluorescence wrote:

In fairness, Irish DOES form a cultural background for all Irish people. We speak Hiberno-English, which is heavily influenced by Gaeilge (despite the vast majority not having much Irish at all).

Oh it does to some degree, but that degree IMHO is pretty exaggerated by some.

That said, I don't think enough people want to speak Irish. Really REALLY want, not just a wistful "Oh I'd like to speak a cúpla focal". If, as a nation, we were really serious about Irish we'd have a generation of bilinguals. Languages aren't hard, and especially not for children (who just sponge it up). The only problem is they can't see why they are learning it, and teachers can't see what they're doing wrong.

I think most of all they find they have little use for it outside the classroom. Even Gaelscoil kids tend to use it little outside the classroom. It doesn't have the critical mass yet to make that leap I reckon. The comparisons to Finnish, Hebrew, Catalan etc you see mentioned are beyond daft because of this lack of critical mass with Irish.

deise go deo · 23-02-2012 01:09PM

hooradiation wrote: »

Irish being compulsory is a waste of time and resources and that's about as generous as I can find myself be to it.

To paraphrase David Mitchell, there may well be thousands of fluent Irish speakers in the country, but I can also communicate with them just as well, if not better, through English.
And if there is a small percentage of them that don't speak English then they'd want to be very bloody interesting to justify me learning the language.

I can't see any reason to continue making what is essentially a hobby a compulsory part of the national curriculum. If you know Irish and want to teach it to your sprogs, go for it. If you want to gather with other like minded hobbyists and share your knowledge and learn from each other - fine. Be my guest. Maybe we could even set aside some of the money we currently spend on translations of government documents into Irish and constructing the Irish syllabus into a grant fund for those that want to run courses or workshops about Irish.

What we shouldn't be doing is using this as political and nationalistic football and refusing to contemplate it's removal from the curriculum for ill defined reasons amounting to people somehow being less Irish if we did.

The language can't stand on it's own as things are, so lets give it to the people who profess to care about it and wish them the best of luck, help them as best we can and see how it goes.
The alternative is to continue wasting all that time and money on having the majority of people not actually being able to string a sentence together after thirteen or so years continued education

Are get rid of it or leave it as it is now really the only two options you can see?

deise go deo · 23-02-2012 01:14PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I think most of all they find they have little use for it outside the classroom. Even Gaelscoil kids tend to use it little outside the classroom. It doesn't have the critical mass yet to make that leap I reckon. The comparisons to Finnish, Hebrew, Catalan etc you see mentioned are beyond daft because of this lack of critical mass with Irish.

Out of interest, what would you see as a critical mass? At what point would you say, right, there it is, that's critical mass.

And how would you judge if things are moving twords or away from that critical mass?

hooradiation · 23-02-2012 01:17PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Are get rid of it or leave it as it is now really the only two options you can see?

If you think that letting those that claim to care about the language be the ones who are responsible for it's continued existence and proliferation constitutes "get[ing] rid of it" then I think you've failed to understand everything I've said.

The King of Moo · 23-02-2012 01:19PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Or of all the subjects they take, they just can't see the point of Irish? That for most they instinctively realise that it's not "our" language?

The uncool bit? TBH and certainly when I was growing up it would have been seen by many if not most I knew as the language of Irish teachers, cross eyed chuckies, fainne(sp) wearing pseuds and backward flatcapped boggers in possession of a whine rather than an accent. Back then Peig Sayers and all that (largely invented) post Victorian diddley eye shíte tended to copperfasten that for many. That has changed to a large degree, though irrelevant born again boggers like Eamon O'Cuiv* and his ilk should shuffle off into the sunset homes for the terminally fcuking daft.

I think when they get to secondary school, or at least fourth/fifth year, then a lot of students would look at their subjects and see Irish as less relevant than the others.

But for those with a grudge against, it exists well before they've begun to think of how relevant their subjects will be to their college courses or career.

The main reason for people developing this grudge is the way it's taught from the start. Many of the basics needed when learning a second language are either ignored or skipped over. It's probably due to the expectation that students should already know some Irish (probably not as common as in my day) and due to the fact that people don't tend to speak a second language here, even if they're fluent in Irish (something which can also be seen in the way many teachers teach other languages in schools) so some Irish teachers, despite being fluent, aren't well-equipped to teach the language.
I'd contrast the way Irish is taught here with the way English is taught in many countries on the continent where most teachers have learned English themselves as a second language and because of this and the fact that in their lives they would've used/encountered English as a second language, they're better equipped to teach English and know better what the students need and want.

Coolness is also a problem. Again, things have probably improved in that regard in recent years, but as you say, when I was learning it was the language of bearded gaeilgeoirs, Peig, and Eddie Lenihan the seanchaí on the Den at 5.30 on Fridays (probably the only day we'd consider turning off the Den early!).

I think a second language should be taught for all of primary school and secondary school, and during primary school it should be Irish simply because some children will have some knowledge of it and kids have more exposure to it. Not for any great nationalist or cultural reasons, it just seems more practical.
Then in secondary school, or fourth year, if students decide they don't want to continue learning or it won't be useful to them, they can get rid of it.

But I think if Irish were taught better and made more fun in primary school (which isn't so hard to do) more students would be better-disposed to it and willing to keep it on, or else wish to stop learning because it's not relevant to them or because they want to parlay the language ability they've developed from learning Irish into another language (and maybe continue learning/speaking Irish in their spare time). They might even feel good enough at it not to need continue learning it in school.

I've no problem with teenagers deciding they want to stop learning Irish (they're smarter than we think!) but I think if they'd learned Irish properly and had it made more attractive , they'd all be dropping it for the right reasons.

conor.hogan.2 · 23-02-2012 01:20PM

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not)

It is not being taught well in school, but I don't think any of the subjects are being taught particularly well.

Wibbs · 23-02-2012 01:55PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Out of interest, what would you see as a critical mass? At what point would you say, right, there it is, that's critical mass.

I suppose when it's actually spoken and used outside the classroom, special interest groups(clubs and the like) and traditional Irish speaking areas. Simply when you hear more people using it as a communication tool.

And how would you judge if things are moving twords or away from that critical mass?

Hard to judge. It had more usage in the past (since the foundation of the state) and declined. More schools used it all the way to the LC and still it declined. Maybe mass media as Gaelige will make that change in a better direction today? I reckon if it does grow appreciably it'll be more down to that.

The King of Moo wrote:

Coolness is also a problem. Again, things have probably improved in that regard in recent years, but as you say, when I was learning it was the language of bearded gaeilgeoirs, Peig, and Eddie Lenihan the seanchaí on the Den at 5.30 on Fridays (probably the only day we'd consider turning off the Den early!).

Oh god it was even worse in the 70's/80's.

I'd agree with you though it's definitely gotten "cooler" in the last decade as far as the media is concerned. More youth orientated stuff for a start.

conor.hogan.2 wrote:

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not)

How the more proactive Irish language bods miss the irony/doublethink of the bold bit above always fascinates me. It's "national language status" is largely artificial. An alien who landed would find it all a bit odd.

LordSutch · 23-02-2012 01:58PM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not)

Indeed it is in theory, but in practice it most definately is not. English is our National language as you well know, and as the whole world recognises (including the Chinese)!

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is not being taught well in school, but I don't think any of the subjects are being taught particularly well.

But Irish has been very badly taught since it was first introduced into our schools, for decades it has been mistaught, and I guess it will continue to be mistaught, ergo the status quo will continue > Irish will remain (on paper) as our official language, Irish children will continue to be churned out of the educational system not being able to speak it, and the vast majority of the adult population will continue to communicate in our first language - English.

Iwasfrozen · 23-02-2012 02:04PM

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is the national language of Ireland. (whether you like it or not, whether it is widely spoken or not

It is one of the national languages of Ireland. On par with english.

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is not being taught well in school, but I don't think any of the subjects are being taught particularly well.

I studied german in school and it was taught much better. Same with french. The course was much less literature based and more focused on the conversational aspect of the language. The irish curriculum coordinators could learn a thing or two from their german colleagues. After it's made optional of course.

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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