Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

pragmatic1

KeithAFC wrote: »

It seems to me it is only being kept alive because there is a certain people on the island who want to limit anything English or British and want to go down this Irish purity route and only anything Irish is acceptable.

It might be a nice little language but the people trying to teach it have a deep agenda in what they set out to do. Trying to demonise the modern Irish person who isn't interested and labelling them westbrits or Unionists. It is really pathetic.

People should only want to learn it and have the option to do so. Not to be forced into learning just so the stats can be used by some who have no real interest in the language but the political and cultural message behind it.

No Keith some people love the language. In the same way that some Scots love the gaelic spoken in parts of Scotland (beautiful language).

pragmatic1

LordSutch wrote: »

Let me stop you there! > "as some kids will already have some . . . "

Some kids indeed, but very few I would suggest, and re my own kids, the first bit of irish they will ever hear is when they walk through the doors of their Primary school, and I reckon my children are not alone in this introduction to Irish.

I was the opposite. I didnt learn english until I was about 7.

Wibbs

KeithAFC wrote: »

It seems to me it is only being kept alive because there is a certain people on the island who want to limit anything English or British and want to go down this Irish purity route and only anything Irish is acceptable.

Not all who are fervent about the language do or think this. Not by a long shot, but yes the "west brit" stuff is usually not long in coming from some quarters, if often thinly veiled.

It might be a nice little language but the people trying to teach it have a deep agenda in what they set out to do. Trying to demonise the modern Irish person who isn't interested and labelling them westbrits or Unionists. It is really pathetic.

What's worse is it does turn off too many people who would otherwise want to learn and use the language. That's a major pity. It was one of the things that personally turned me off the language at quite an early age. I had much more of an appreciation for the language and specifically it's history when I grew older. That and knowing people who were bilingual (usually but not always from the cradle) and loved the language and didn't come with the optional chip on the shoulder about it.

savvyav

Dostoevsky wrote: »

GaelChultúr has superb teaching methods. Éamonn Ó Dónaill, who established GaelChultúr (and the exemplary www.beo.ie) after he left UCD, was the person who set the curriculum and teaching methods for the Irish course in UCD when I was there. The teaching methods in UCD, and thus in Gaelchúltur, were a breath of fresh air compared to secondary. The methods, and the people, just exuded love for the subject and a genuine desire to encourage every one of us. It inspired, and still inspires, me. I can honestly say I learnt more Irish in one year in UCD than all of secondary school. The kindness, patience and encouragement of all the professors and lecturers there will stay with me forever. That's the way you teach!

Now, to adapt that teaching philosophy and methods to a class of 15-year-olds of very mixed academic ability....

That's just it, I don't understand how Gaelchultur can get it so right and yet the Department of Education won't cop on and learn from them. They have changed the Leaving Cert. exam so that the oral is now worth 40%- this is obviously to try bring the marks up and make Irish be seen as an 'easy subject', but it's not going to make a difference if they don't start teaching grammar and vocabulary properly. Bear in mind I teach modern languages so I have a better understanding of grammar than most people but I still can't form a sentence that doesn't begin with 'ta'. Having said that, hearing Irish and English mixed together makes my ears bleed- I hear my students say stuff like 'Fuair so and so an shift' and 'ta se ag mitchail'...shudder.

savvyav

[QUOTE=The King of Moo;77245068

Coolness is also a problem. Again, things have probably improved in that regard in recent years, but as you say, when I was learning it was the language of bearded gaeilgeoirs, Peig, and Eddie Lenihan the seanchaí on the Den at 5.30 on Fridays (probably the only day we'd consider turning off the Den early!).

[/QUOTE]

In fairness, some of the 'cool' stuff is just embarassing! I remember doing a short story about drugs in school and it was the most patronising rubbish ever. Instead of Foinse they'd be better off publishing a magazine in Irish for teenagers, like Cosmogirl or Kiss or something. That's one of my favourite ways to keep up my languages, I can read complete crap about celebrities and clothes but feel like I'm exercising my brain

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

If you want the state to spend time and money changing the education system, it should at least be in an effort to make it better. I have never seen anything to suggest that introducing choice will make the system better, in fact it may well make it worse.
That was the experience in England when Languages were made optional.

Choice is not more important than an effective education system

I'm not talking about choice versus the system. I'm not takling about choice versus the language. I'm not talking about choice making anything more or less effective. I'm talking about an individual's right to make a choice about his or her life. How, after the amount of times we've been down this road, co you still not get my point that I put th indiviudal student first. To not do this is to condescend to and put you in own needs in front of those of children.

The education system should serve the children, NOT the other way around.

conor.hogan.2

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It is one of the national languages of Ireland. On par with english.

Practically yes, constitutionally no. http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

Iwasfrozen

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Practically yes, constitutionally no. http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

Constitutionally yes. The fact english is refered to as the "second" official language does not make it politically less important in any way. Are you joking me? Practically irish can't even be charted against english in importance or usefullness.

Irish Steve

To coin a phrase from several TV shows

In no particular order.

Native language, is the one that the child hears and starts to recognise before it is even born. The language that is in normal ever day use in the family to which the child belongs, the language that the child is immersed in both from a family point of view, and from contact with others on a regular basis.

For a moment, I am going to disregard the huge number of people in Ireland that are not Irish by birth, but have come here, mostly, relatively recently.

For the native speakers, there are 2 languages. The majority language, like it or not, is some form of English, with local adaptations that may or may not enhance the language. For the minority, and it unfortunately is a small minority, it's Irish, and the use of Irish as the teaching language is not necessarily changing that much. If the child is taught through Irish all day long, then goes home to an English speaking houshold, and watches English Television, or listems to English Radio, then the exposure to Irish is being diluted, possibly significantly, especially if Irish is not used as the prime language by the family.

If Ireland was somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, or the Pacific, then we might not have a problem, but we are on the edge of a polyglot community of countries with a massive range of languages between them, and our nearest neighbour speaks the language that is the default here, which clearly causes some people a big problem.

Because of where we are, geographically and culturally, we now face a very different environment. The native language of many children entering education may well now not be English, and even if they have been born in Ireland, it is possible that on entering education, they still will have little or no English, and certainly no Irish. That presents some schools with severe problems. They have to try and communicate with a wide range of skills and abilities, and in a way that can be understood by all. How exactly do you do that in a class of 30 or thereabouts where there may be over 20 different native languages. The teacher, who may well be relatively new to teaching, has to try and establish a level of communication and rapport with a group of up to 30 students, and possibly 20 of them do not understand the language being used to teach them. Then, to really add to the pressure, we introduce another language that many of the children have never heard, and they now are trying to cope with 2 languages that they don't really understand, and make sense of all of this information. To make things worse, while these new students are being exposed more to both languages, they are most likely to hear English outside of the classroom, but to revert to their native language in the social and home environment. In that case, we are disadvantaging the child of a non irish family.

In the Irish family, there is at least a chance that other members of the family will have some understanding of Irish, and use at home may even help the rest of the family to recover some of the lost memories.

What happens to the rest, and it is no longer a small number. They can get no help at home with Irish, in that their parents will not even understand what they are saying, nor how to assist them if they are making mistakes with that Irish usage. Like it or not, that WILL disadvantage all the children of non nationals. Is that what we want? I don't think so.

Schools teaching in Irish. They are seemingly very popular in some areas, but is this that they may have a better result because the parents see them as being more "Irish", or perhaps more cynically less "Non Irish", by virtue that to be able to learn there, Irish is going to be required, which a non irish national is pretty much excluded from. If the parents use Irish in the home as the main language and communicate in Irish, then they have a valid choice, if they do not, then their choice of an "Irish" school may be no more than a social snobbery choice, not based on language, but on possibly even a racial preference. In addition, there are "advantages" to Irish Schools, like an automatic extra % in exams, and often smaller class sizes so more 1 to 1 time with teachers. Parents that are desperate to see their child get max points in the leaving do whatever it takes to acheive that. Cynical? Maybe, but also unfortunately too often true. I looked at a thread in a related forum just now, http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=44726, and there was a lot of discussion about class sizes and the like, which should not be the reason for choosing to educate through Irish.

This problem is not unique to Ireland, I worked in Belgium for a while, and they have a similar situation there, 2 official languages, French and Flemish, and signs, notices and the like all have to be capable of being read in either language, if anything, it's even worse over there, instruction signs in things like lifts and the like are all bilingual, and it was clear at the time that Belgium, as a small country, was in a difficult place, in reality, it could not afford the "luxury" of 2 official languages, and all that entailed, but getting agreement from the 2 deeply divided communities about a "national" language would have been impossible. Due to the history, the same is true here, while Irish is the "official" No 1 language, the No 2 official language is the language of usage, and of the vast majority of people, and that is not likely to change any time soon.

Where will this go? At this time, probably nowhere, there are higher priorities on the agenda at the moment, like getting a viable working economy again, while we still can. After that, who knows? I'd be happier to see more emphasis being placed on modern technology and the like than on the languages, but I don't make those sorts of decisions.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'm not talking about choice versus the system. I'm not takling about choice versus the language. I'm not talking about choice making anything more or less effective. I'm talking about an individual's right to make a choice about his or her life. How, after the amount of times we've been down this road, co you still not get my point that I put th indiviudal student first. To not do this is to condescend to and put you in own needs in front of those of children.

The education system should serve the children, NOT the other way around.

Thats fine, talk about it all you wan't but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinion. I don't see choosing what subjects you do in school as being a right, and from what I have seen the vast majority of the population agrees with me, it might be evenly split in the case of Irish, but you suggest making English or Maths optional and see the brick wall you run headlong into.
The vast majority of education systems in the world have no such right to subject choice, and to be honnest I can see no compelling argument in favor of making subject choice a right here.
I think its a poorly thought out idea that could well have a detremential impact on the education of the children you seam so concerned about, tell me, how would that serve their interests?

I don't see potentially damaging the education system in some sort of ideological quest to give everyone a choice of what subjects they do as putting the student first, far from it.

deise go deo

Irish Steve wrote: »

20 of them do not understand the language being used to teach them. Then, to really add to the pressure, we introduce another language that many of the children have never heard, and they now are trying to cope with 2 languages that they don't really understand, and make sense of all of this information. To make things worse, while these new students are being exposed more to both languages, they are most likely to hear English outside of the classroom, but to revert to their native language in the social and home environment. In that case, we are disadvantaging the child of a non irish family.

That does not follow, the linguistic research into language learning has shown that being exposed a second or third language does not confuse a child or hinder the developmen of a child in any way, it has actualy been shown to be beneficial in many ways.

Your claims are fallacious.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats fine, talk about it all you wan't but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinion. I don't see choosing what subjects you do in school as being a right, and from what I have seen the vast majority of the population agrees with me, it might be evenly split in the case of Irish, but you suggest making English or Maths optional and see the brick wall you run headlong into.
The vast majority of education systems in the world have no such right to subject choice, and to be honnest I can see no compelling argument in favor of making subject choice a right here.
I think its a poorly thought out idea that could well have a detremential impact on the education of the children you seam so concerned about, tell me, how would that serve their interests?

I don't see potentially damaging the education system in some sort of ideological quest to give everyone a choice of what subjects they do as putting the student first, far from it.

Any rational mind wiill tell you that forcing a 15 year old to do something and like it is a waste of time.

Beyond that, I find it intersting that you are suddenly passionate about the education because, by coincidence, it supports your view of the languege. In other words, it suits what you want, and serves the needs of someone other than the kids involved, so it's good. Thus reducing said kids to the level of pawns in your fight for the language.

What good would would making children more responsible for their choices and have a more tailored education system? Do I really have to answer that one?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Any rational mind wiill tell you that forcing a 15 year old to do something and like it is a waste of time.

What has liking it got to do with anything?
It is blatently obvious that compulsion is not a waste of time, if it was then no one would ever do well at English, Irish or Maths.
You may have delusions of being more rational than others, but personally I have no interest in hearing about them.

Beyond that, I find it intersting that you are suddenly passionate about the education because, by coincidence, it supports your view of the languege. In other words, it suits what you want, and serves the needs of someone other than the kids involved, so it's good. Thus reducing said kids to the level of pawns in your fight for the language.

This is utter nonsense, the points I made stand compleatly outside the issue of the Irish Language, I was not talking about Irish being compulsory or not, I was talking about the absolute lack of any basis for thinking that there should be a right to subject choice in schools.

In almost every country in the EU, they have compulsion as a normal part of their education system, so what are their kids pawns in the fight for?

I am indeed passionate about education, and that is why it gauls me that someone would suggest making changes to the education system, not on the basis of improving the educational outcomes for students, but rather to further an ideology of choice for the sake of choice regardless of the potential harm it may cause to those in the education system.



Now, if you are incapable of discussing an issue, without making hysterical and downright ridiculous accusations like 'reducing kids to the level of pawns', then I will simply bid you be blasted with piss and take my leave as I have no interest in getting sucked into a petty and fruitless argument with somone too blind to see the glaring flaws in the arguments they have put forward.

KeithAFC

pragmatic1 wrote: »

No Keith some people love the language. In the same way that some Scots love the gaelic spoken in parts of Scotland (beautiful language).

A lot of people involved in promoting the language don't do so for the language but to suit their own agenda.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

What has liking it got to do with anything?

I would have thought that if you wand people to like the Irish language, liking it has everything to do with the situation!!!

It is blatently obvious that compulsion is not a waste of time, if it was then no one would ever do well at English, Irish or Maths.

Go back, re-read what I wrote, then comment on what I actually wrote.

You may have delusions of being more rational than others, but personally I have no interest in hearing about them.

Go back, re-read what I wrote, then comment on what I actually wrote.

This is utter nonsense, the points I made stand compleatly outside the issue of the Irish Language, I was not talking about Irish being compulsory or not, I was talking about the absolute lack of any basis for thinking that there should be right to subject choice in schools.

In almost every country in the EU, they have compulsion as a normal part of their education system, so what are their kids pawns in the fight for?

I am indeed passionate about education, and that is why it gauls me that someone would suggest making changes to the education system, not on the basis of improving the educational outcomes for students, but rather to further an ideology of choice for the sake of choice regardless of the potential harm it may cause to those in the education system.

Bull****! You only feel that way because it serves your purpose! You said on the same subject ages ago that you would be okay with the subject beign dropped after it was improved, why the change now? The conformed very optinoal educatino system is a different argument. How many kids, do you think, made massive improvemensi network Irish after the age of 15 because they were forced to do it?

Now, if you are incapable of discussing an issue, without making hysterical and downright ridiculous accusations like 'reducing kids to the level of pawns', then I will simply bid you be blasted with piss and take my leave as I have no interest in getting sucked into a petty and fruitless argument with somone to blind to see the glaring flaws in the arguments they have put forward.

Ye-ah....

deise go deo

KeithAFC wrote: »

A lot of people involved in promoting the language don't do so for the language but to suit their own agenda.

As is the case with many who try to obstruct the development of the language, is'nt that so, Keith old chap?

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I would have thought that if you wand people to like the Irish language, liking it has everything to do with the situation!!!

I am not talking specifically about the Irish Language, I am talking about the use of compulsion in education in general.
It is not as you suggested a waste of time, it can clearly work.

senordingdong

No

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Bull****! You only feel that way because it serves your purpose! You said on the same subject ages ago that you would be okay with the subject beign dropped after it was improved, why the change now? The conformed very optinoal educatino system is a different argument. How many kids, do you think, made massive improvemensi network Irish after the age of 15 because they were forced to do it?

Don't presume to tell me my own mind.
I am perfectly fine with the basis of change being the improvment of the education system, I am not ok with the basis of change being a baseless and potentally damaging quest for choice for the sake of choice because you happen to think it should be a right.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

I am not talking specifically about the Irish Language, I am talking about the use of compulsion in education in general.
It is not as you suggested a waste of time, it can clearly work.

deise go deo wrote: »

Don't presume to tell me my own mind.
I am perfectly fine with the basis of change being the improvment of the education system, I am not ok with the basis of change being a baseless and potentally damaging quest for choice for the sake of choice because you happen to think it should be a right.

Deise go deo wrote:

As for makeing Irish optional i'm not against it as a concept per ce but there are several questions I would have
...
Oh and my personal view on the function of education is to expand a childs mind and bring them to a point where they are capable of educating themselves.

Not the one I was looking for, but best I could do on short notice.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67097090&postcount=651

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Not the one I was looking for, but best I could do on short notice.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67097090&postcount=651

Yep, I said that, and stand by it, whats your point exactly?


Maybe I should try to explain, I am not against Irish being made Optional per sé, I am against poorly tought out, half assed educational policies that cause more problems than they fix.

Choice for the sake of Choice, regardless of the actual effect it will have on the education system and the educational outcomes of students.
Thats a poorly thought out, half assed plan in my book and therefore I am against it.

Making Irish optional without first addressing the long standing problems related to the teaching of Irish in the education system, thats a poorly thought out, half assed plan in my book, and as such I am against it.

If someone was to come along and say, lets start a process of reform which will see the teaching of Irish rationalised to improve the educational outcomes for students and the long standing problems relating to Irish in the education system effectivly tackled, oh and by the way, when we have that done, making Irish optional will be on the cards, that would not be a poorly thought out, half assed plan in my book, that would be a well thought out, worthwhile plan, and as such I would support it.

SeanW

deise go deo wrote: »

I am indeed passionate about education, and that is why it gauls me that someone would suggest making changes to the education system, not on the basis of improving the educational outcomes for students, but rather to further an ideology ... regardless of the potential harm it may cause to those in the education system.

Pot, Kettle, Black.

Adding choices to the education system cannot do harm. Some students have more interest and more capabilities in certain areas than others. Some students may want to learn carpentry. Others might have an eye on an Information Technology career. Others might have an interest in languages, be that 'Irish' or foreign languages. Others might be the arty types, and want to study that in more detail. Heck, a school might even have a few future mathematicians in its ranks.

I'm fairly certain that forcing them to spend 1/6 of their time learning a language they don't want to know about (and also wasting 1/6 of the schools resources) isn't going to help any of the above one bit.

To claim that allowing the educational experience be tailored to the interests and capabilities of individual students would be detrimental to them, as you seem to be, is both bizarre and troubling. And we both know it's a load of rubbish, and a thin smokescreen.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Yep, I said that, and stand by it, whats your point exactly?


Maybe I should try to explain, I am not against Irish being made Optional per sé, I am against poorly tought out, half assed educational policies that cause more problems than they fix.

No, you have been arguing in favour of compulsory subjects and against choice for most of the last two pages.
In what way is offer choice a half-assed policy? what problems do you see it causing?

Choice for the sake of Choice, regardless of the actual effect it will have on the education system and the educational outcomes of students.
Thats a poorly thought out, half assed plan in my book and therefore I am against it.

Making Irish optional without first addressing the long standing problems related to the teaching of Irish in the education system, thats a poorly thought out, half assed plan in my book, and as such I am against it.

Again, you say poorly thought out of it's some sort of self evident point. In what way is it bad?

If someone was to come along and say, lets start a process of reform which will see the teaching of Irish rationalised to improve the educational outcomes for students and the long standing problems relating to Irish in the education system effectivly tackled, oh and by the way, when we have that done, making Irish optional will be on the cards, that would not be a poorly thought out, half assed plan in my book, that would be a well thought out, worthwhile plan, and as such I would support it.

So you are in favour of Irish being optional under certain circumsances? That I would have no porblem with, but again, you've been arguing against students shoosing subjects generally, not just Irish.

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

No, you have been arguing in favour of compulsory subjects and against choice for most of the last two pages.
In what way is offer choice a half-assed policy? what problems do you see it causing?



Again, you say poorly thought out of it's some sort of self evident point. In what way is it bad?



So you are in favour of Irish being optional under certain circumsances? That I would have no porblem with, but again, you've been arguing against students shoosing subjects generally, not just Irish.

Is freedom of choice for all subjects something that can be successful and carried out so you achieve better average academic scores than what are achieved now? is it possible to reform and be successful and have the funding to do so? do 15 yr olds for example have the maturity to pick subjects that best suit them or would it be a case of picking easier subjects and after leaving school be left with a hindsight dilemma? i must say in theory it sounds very nice but in practice i could see a dumbing down of education.

Pottler

Gaelic= museum exhibit/pain in the hole for students. Teach Mandarin, German, Spanish, whatever instead. Jasus, teaching Latin would be more useful. Make some tapes, put them on reeling in the years, job done, move on. Gaelic is dead, it's a bit like teaching kids how to repel Dinosaurs and making them do tests in it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

Is freedom of choice for all subjects something that can be successful and carried out so you achieve better average academic scores than what are achieved now? is it possible to reform and be successful and have the funding to do so? do 15 yr olds for example have the maturity to pick subjects that best suit them or would it be a case of picking easier subjects and after leaving school be left with a hindsight dilemma? i must say in theory it sounds very nice but in practice i could see a dumbing down of education.

You're educating people here. And a lof of people. If an education system, be it ours or someone else's, is not capable of flexibility, is not capable of diversity and is not capable of meeting a wide range of different students' needs; and if said education system is not capable of producing 15 year olds who can not tell the differnce between something they find interresting or helpful and somethign they find pointless or boring, then I'd argue that soemthing far more fundamental has gone wrong.

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You're educating people here. And a lof of people. If an education system, be it ours or someone else's, is not capable of flexibility, is not capable of diversity and is not capable of meeting a wide range of different students' needs; and if said education system is not capable of producing 15 year olds who can not tell the differnce between something they find interresting or helpful and somethign they find pointless or boring, then I'd argue that soemthing far more fundamental has gone wrong.

I mean perhaps there is merit to reform along these lines. as we do seem to be regressing.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=5931

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

I mean perhaps there is merit to reform along these lines. as we do seem to be regressing.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=5931

Very interesting. I picked this one out:

There is underfunded and poorly run teacher training, almost non existent inservice training, no measurement of standards within schools or mechanisms to improve teaching or learning, no vision or educational ideas from the top, total resistance to improvement or change by unions and steady reduction in funding and infrastructure. 'Improvements' take the easy route of simply upgrading through the marking system while real standards have dropped.

If true, it seems that the causes of the decline have little to do with choice or lack thereof. If anything, it's the fact that we keep the old routines in plae that are stifling us. I find the phrases "no vision or educational ideas" and "total resistance to improvement or change" particualrly telling. No change, no improvements and people wonder why.

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Very interesting. I picked this one out:



If true, it seems that the facts owhich caused the decline have little to do with choice or lack thereof. If anything, it's the fact that we keep the old routines in plae that are stifling us. I find the phrases "no vision or educational ideas" and "total resistance to improvement or change" particualrly telling. No change, no improvements and people wonder why.

equally interesting and depressing. i do think math should be compulsory just for the fact that i think everyone should have a basic understanding of it as it can and should teach you budgets etc on how to manage money, apart from that i would be in favour of teaching students to their strong points.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

equally interesting and depressing. i do think math should be compulsory just for the fact that i think everyone should have a basic understanding of it as it can and should teach you budgets etc on how to manage money, apart from that i would be in favour of teaching students to their strong points.

True, but again, I would argue that that's in place by age 15! If it isn't, then bigger questions have to be asked and forcign the student to do ordinary maths for the leaving is really not going to make everything okay.