Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Dammo

Slán

Jess16

Happyman42 wrote: »

If all else fails try a bit of fascism, i.e. WE know what's good for you, obey!

See, it's almost ironic that you're interpreting my post that way when in actual fact, we're currently being fascistly dictated to by Europe and it's precisely the opposite that I'm suggesting -the re-establishment of independence to return to the self-regulating sovereign state we once were instead of the mixed up melting pot we've become -may I suggest reading David Cameron's speech at Munich as a substantial indictment of how multi-culturalism doesn't work

gimme5minutes

KeithM89 wrote: »

This thread will be wrapping up soon, so final thoughts and all that.

Typical boards.ie. Always mods sticking their oar in deciding people should no longer discuss a subject. Here's a crazy idea, how about just letting people discuss what they want to discuss, the is obviously a topic people are interested in discussing.

GaryIrv93

deise go deo wrote: »

This is hilarious, seriously, you claimed Compulsion will cause resentment/hatred, plain and simple, now is this the case or not, obviously not because you have been backtracking since you said it, including giving a justification as to why it won't apply to just about every school subject I could think of, so why can't you just admit it?
You have not shown a link between resentment and compulsion, you have said there is ad infinatum, but you have not show it.
You claimed that compulsion is the main reason for widespread resentment/hatred of Irish and is the main factor in its decline. For your argument to hold true you first have to back up your claim that there is widespread resentment/hatred of Irish, and then show that the cause is compulsion, you have done neither of these things.

I would rather be learning a compulsory subject such as Construction Studies and Maths that have a very high likeliehood of coming in useful to me in the future than a poorly-taught compulsory subject that won't come in useful to me in the future, like Irish. Yet students are required to it anyway, whether it has a chance or not of coming in useful to them. This is what I mean by hatred of compulsion. What have I not admitted to?? I've spelled this out countless times and I'm getting tired of it.

You're refusing to admit to the fact that hatred is linked to useless compulsion. You would hate it if something pointless was forced upon you, any human being would, and I've used examples. Pardon me, but I have shown links and so have other posters since this particular argument began, I've seen and linked posts from real Boards users that have shown hatred towards the language, that I'll bet good money that came from it's compulsion, since hatred of the language wouldn't simply appear out of nowhere. Something would have to cause it - there's not much else that it could really be apart from compulsion IMO. If you're not happy with the links, then that's not really my problem. If I'm not posting what you're looking for, then you'd be better off finding it yourself on the internet and posting it here.

Wibbs

deise go deo wrote: »

Wibbs, please stop trying to twist things to suit your argument, its compleatly dishonnest.

Well I LOL'd at the irony in that. Damn near the entire (very vocal)Irish lobby's arguments are twisted to suit and have been for a very long time. This "survey" you linked to a good example. They pretty much set out their stall in the introduction and run with it from there. Hell look at the recent census. The usual suspects were out crowing on about how the language had grown since the last census, but neglected to point out to their clapping supporters that the population had grown overall by a bigger amount. IE the language was slightly down in a few areas. In fact any body that uses the census stats is on a hiding to nowhere. If you were to read the various Wiki pages on the subject you'd be easily mistaken in thinking that 2/3rds of us have command of the language.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Whether compulsion or not is the cause of said dislike is irrelvant. The question is, would they be better off, academically speaking, if they were allowed to choose something else for the last two years. No one has yet given me a good argument saying 'no'.

You're missing the biggest reason for saying no is as far as the Irish lobby are concerned. Fear. Fear of seeing the real levels of support among students for the language. If say a low enough figure of 30% drop it in favour for other subjects for the leaving cert it asks questions of their claimed support. This is why they fear it. This is why when it was even sniffed as a possibility the vested interests came out of the woodwork growling on about heritage and all that stuff. Cultural blackmail as a bargaining tactic. One they use every time. Inda Kenny(an Irish speaker himself) was even publicly accosted by some scary haired woman in a meet and greet. IIRC the same lady was someone who ran a Gaeltacht summer school. Indeed. Like I said turkeys won't vote for Xmas. They can be quite contradictory too. Conradh na Gaeilge will on the one hand claim majority support for the subject among students, yet in the same breath will also claim making Irish optional will cause a large decline in the number of the same student taking the subject.

Jess16 wrote:

-so bloody what if people are willing to learn or lend support to a language unique to our country?

The financial and educational cost perhaps?

This is Ireland, not some little mid-Atlantic stopoff that only exists to cater to whatever other nationality decides to drop by.

Hmm where are we going with this I wonder....

We need to reclaim our country, start making our own rules and regulations and preserving our authenticity instead of pandering to other people's expectations.

I just love the word "authentic" when it comes to culture or blue jeans.

No, they're parachuting in to pick up some free social welfare without caring less about making any contribution to this country, cultural or otherwise. Probably why we're in the midst of our biggest economic crisis to date right now.

..... and here we are. The cultural isolationist laid bare. "No freeloadin darkies or dem Poles in the Gaelscoils ya hear? Der foriden y'know boss, we'll put them off with Irish". What's "Dey took urr jooobs" as Gaelige? Oh god it's hilarious.:pac::D:D

PS you may well have degree level Irish, but basic economics seems to have passed you by. The biggest reason for our economic crisis was, you guessed it, US. NO help required.

Namlub

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Typical boards.ie. Always mods sticking their oar in deciding people should no longer discuss a subject. Here's a crazy idea, how about just letting people discuss what they want to discuss, the is obviously a topic people are interested in discussing.

tbf, it's just been the same few people going around in circles for the last ten-odd pages

Wibbs

True enough.

Happyman42

Jess16 wrote: »

No, they're parachuting in to pick up some free social welfare without caring less about making any contribution to this country, cultural or otherwise. Probably why we're in the midst of our biggest economic crisis to date right now.

Does that wee quote aboove remind you of any famous fascists? Like the one on trial in Norway at the minute, for instance? Wonder how many Gaeltact dwellers have milked the system over the years????

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You don't need statistical evidence to show that there is a lot of resentment amongst Leaving Cert students for the language. Nor do you need statistical evidence to show that, having shown a dislike for a subject or activity - not specific to Irish - that forcing them to continue is going to harbour further resentment. By the time they hit the leaving cert, they'll have done it for 9 or 10 years. They will know whether or not the like it.

You seem to be ignoring one small detail.
Irish has been compulsory for nearly 80 years and yet the majority of people, the vast majority of whom no doubt went through the school system here, wish it too remain so.
If compulsion fostered a lifelong hatred of the language then why do most people wish it to continue? It doesn't make sense that people who hate the language would insist that their children learn it.

What this shows is that although many hate it in school, after they leave their attitude changes. Does it make sense to remove compulsion because of the attitude someone has for 5 or 6 years, at the same time as knowing most will think differently for the next 50 or 60?

Jess16

Happyman42 wrote: »

Does that wee quote aboove remind you of any famous fascists? Like the one on trial in Norway at the minute, for instance?

Why are you making disgusting and hysterical accusations instead of arguing my points? I've already had to ignore one poster's irrational, personal attacks and now you're stepping into the breach with something like that. I'm not engaging with anyone who resorts to insults of that magnitude.

EDIT: How dare any of you insinuate that my promotion of Irish is exclusionary of anything else. It seems some people will stop at nothing to get the last word

Wibbs

Jess16 wrote: »

EDIT: How dare any of you insinuate that my promotion of Irish is exclusionary of anything else.

Well to be fair it's not that big a leap. Not given your own words:

This is Ireland, not some little mid-Atlantic stopoff that only exists to cater to whatever other nationality decides to drop by.

And this is a doosie:

No, they're parachuting in to pick up some free social welfare without caring less about making any contribution to this country, cultural or otherwise.

Sounds pretty narrow and isolationist to me. No? Good luck explaining your position. Even more since you blame de foridners on our economic woes too. Niiiice.

KeithM89_old

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Typical boards.ie. Always mods sticking their oar in deciding people should no longer discuss a subject. Here's a crazy idea, how about just letting people discuss what they want to discuss, the is obviously a topic people are interested in discussing.

Ah boohoo.
Its been the same roundabout conversation for pages and pages and the mood certainly isnt getting any friendlier.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring one small detail.
Irish has been compulsory for nearly 80 years and yet the majority of people, the vast majority of whom no doubt went through the school system here, wish it too remain so.
If compulsion fostered a lifelong hatred of the language then why do most people wish it to continue? It doesn't make sense that people who hate the language would insist that their children learn it.

I've dealt with this, majority rule is not nessecarily what's best.
And any sane parent would listen to their 15yo son and let him decide whats best for himself and not stand in his way.

What this shows is that although many hate it in school, after they leave their attitude changes. Does it make sense to remove compulsion because of the attitude someone has for 5 or 6 years, at the same time as knowing most will think differently for the next 50 or 60?

Yes, it does, because there is nothing stopping these people kearning the langauge as an adult, when they have more time and more motivation.

Jess16

Could a moderator address Wibbs' continued personal attacks -in a conversation of this nature, I take serious exception to having my words taken out of context and twisted for someone else to push their own petty agenda

grindle

Cú Giobach wrote: »

If compulsion fostered a lifelong hatred of the language then why do most people wish it to continue? It doesn't make sense that people who hate the language would insist that their children learn it.

It's a token nationalist impulse.

A minority of those in support actually use it, the vast majority couldn't be bothered, whereas if the vast majority bothered with learning it themselves and brought their children up with it, then that'd be a genuine grass-roots movement towards keeping it going, and it would probably work. This way doesn't.
Unless you think 'keeping it going' means 13 years of schooling, learning very little, then forcing the next generation through the same schooling, learning very little, etc, etc.

If they all truly supported it the way you seem to think they do, the entire nation would be the Gaeltacht.

Edit: Could a moderator address Jess16's thinly veiled xenophobia, re:

This is Ireland, not some little mid-Atlantic stopoff that only exists to cater to whatever other nationality decides to drop by.

and

No, they're parachuting in to pick up some free social welfare without caring less about making any contribution to this country, cultural or otherwise.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring one small detail.
Irish has been compulsory for nearly 80 years and yet the majority of people, the vast majority of whom no doubt went through the school system here, wish it too remain so.
If compulsion fostered a lifelong hatred of the language then why do most people wish it to continue? It doesn't make sense that people who hate the language would insist that their children learn it.

What this shows is that although many hate it in school, after they leave their attitude changes. Does it make sense to remove compulsion because of the attitude someone has for 5 or 6 years, at the same time as knowing most will think differently for the next 50 or 60?

Total and utter rubbish, seldom have read such tripe.
Irish has been compulsory for over eighty years and less than 2% of the population speak to any meaningful degree outside school on a daily basis! thats the fact, more people speak Polish. Why do so few people speak it? Obviously it is not culturally that important to them, they would sooner speak a widely spoken international language like English, a language which has been the mother tongue to the majority of Irish people for generations. To many people in Ireland it has little if any cultural significance, other than some vague romantic attachment to the idea of the couple focail.
That said it should of course remain as an optional choice where a viable number in any school wish to study it.

Happyman42

Jess16 wrote: »

Why are you making disgusting and hysterical accusations instead of arguing my points? I've already had to ignore one poster's irrational, personal attacks and now you're stepping into the breach with something like that. I'm not engaging with anyone who resorts to insults of that magnitude.

EDIT: How dare any of you insinuate that my promotion of Irish is exclusionary of anything else. It seems some people will stop at nothing to get the last word

This is Norway, not some little mid-Atlantic stopoff that only exists to cater to whatever other nationality decides to drop by. We need to reclaim our country, start making our own rules and regulations and preserving our authenticity instead of pandering to other people's expectations.

Can you see now, what we see in your statement?

lividduck

Jess16 wrote: »

See, it's almost ironic that you're interpreting my post that way when in actual fact, we're currently being fascistly dictated to by Europe and it's precisely the opposite that I'm suggesting -the re-establishment of independence to return to the self-regulating sovereign state we once were instead of the mixed up melting pot we've become -may I suggest reading David Cameron's speech at Munich as a substantial indictment of how multi-culturalism doesn't work

Who writes your speeches? Anders Brevik?

kowloon

Jess16 wrote: »

No, they're parachuting in to pick up some free social welfare without caring less about making any contribution to this country, cultural or otherwise. Probably why we're in the midst of our biggest economic crisis to date right now.

Also, who said anything about 'all of us' speaking Irish? Or Peig? Or closing the borders? It seems that bitterness, sarcasm and ignorance are the only comeback for the anti-Irish warriors here -clearly a waste of time trying to have a constructive debate within this forum

I'd hardly call rascism constructive debate.

DEY TUK OOR JERBS!

lividduck

grindle wrote: »

It's a token nationalist impulse.

A minority of those in support actually use it, the vast majority couldn't be bothered, whereas if the vast majority bothered with learning it themselves and brought their children up with it, then that'd be a genuine grass-roots movement towards keeping it going, and it would probably work. This way doesn't.
Unless you think 'keeping it going' means 13 years of schooling, learning very little, then forcing the next generation through the same schooling, learning very little, etc, etc.

If they all truly supported it the way you seem to think they do, the entire nation would be the Gaeltacht.

Edit: Could a moderator address Jess16's thinly veiled xenophobia, re:


and

Have you actually reported her posts?

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I've dealt with this, majority rule is not nessecarily what's best.
And any sane parent would listen to their 15yo son and let him decide whats best for himself and not stand in his way.

Not one word on the actual point I raised.

lividduck wrote: »

Total and utter rubbish, seldom have read such tripe.
Irish has been compulsory for over eighty years and less than 2% of the population speak to any meaningful degree outside school on a daily basis! thats the fact, more people speak Polish. Why do so few people speak it? Obviously it is not culturally that important to them, they would sooner speak a widely spoken international language like English, a language which has been the mother tongue to the majority of Irish people for generations. To many people in Ireland it has little if any cultural significance, other than some vague romantic attachment to the idea of the couple focail.
That said it should of course remain as an optional choice where a viable number in any school wish to study it.

Sorry livycluck but the only rubbish here is your reply, because it has nothing to do with what I said and you also did not address the actual point I raised.
Surely you can reply to at least one post of mine with some sort of half decent reply that at the very least has something to do with what I say. Try harder.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Not one word on the actual point I raised.



Sorry livycluck but the only rubbish here is your reply, because it has nothing to do with what I said and you also did not address the actual point I raised.
Surely you can reply to at least one post of mine with some sort of half decent reply that at the very least has something to do with what I say. Try harder.

It's Lividduck, as you should know by now bearing in mind the result of your last snide personal attack on me.
Hopefully there will come a time when you mature enough to play the ball and not the man.

KeithM89_old

Thats quite enough of that.