Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

The King of Moo

AngryBollix wrote: »

Learning a second isnt necessary. It certainly shouldnt be compulsory

Can you explain how learning irish improves your english. They are completely separate languages.

What improves your english is focussing on English isn't it?

Not exclusively. The problem we have with English is that we learn it mainly from hearing it first, then reading it (like native speakers of all languages).
Compared to other countries, we also don't teach English grammar very well in schools.
This is why people often have such a poor level of grammar and spelling.

Having an awareness of another language, and having to learn it in a structured manner allows you to see the structures and principles of that language. This in turn gives one a greater understanding of the foundations of English and improves one's awareness of English grammar and structure.

Basically, it allows you to step back and see English the way a non-native speaker would (assuming of course that the second language is well-taught, and Irish often isn't in primary schools) and less likely to make mistakes due to a lack of awareness of how English works.

pragmatic1

Jesus but these threads are depressing. I cant talk,read or write Irish therefore it shouldn't be taught/has no value.We're fcukin doomed as a nation.

deise go deo

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

And what is the point?

There is no use for it in international society. There is no use for it in Irish society. Thus there will always be a resentment in learning it.

It is sad that our language was taken from us, but that is history and we need to move on.

What use is there for Finnish or Estonian in International Society?
There are only a handful of international languages, that does not mean that all other languages are therefore valueless.

As for in Irish society, speak for yourself, thats your poinion, not fact, my opinion would be quite different.

Resenting Irish is actually becoming quite old fashioned, over the last 15 years or so the Irish Language has become popular with young people, this is shown by the explosion in the number and membership of Irish societies at third level, (UCD's has over 2000 members) another more recent phenomenon is the growth of student run Irish clubs at second level.

Given the growth of Gaelscoils, the changes in curriculum in English medium schools(getting rid of peig) and the availibility of Irish Language media like TG4, its not all that surprising.

dark crystal

Whatever about primary school, it should definitely be optional in secondary school.

I would much prefer to see subjects like Economics, Civics and I.T taught in place of subjects like religion and Irish, which unless one plans a career based on either subject, are largely useless to the average school leaver.

MysticalRain

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Most of those are CS, I presume? They'll hire primarily native speakers with English as a second language if they are working in a language department. They will have primarily English roles that will primarily go to native English speakers.

Many of those jobs are generic customer service/call centre roles, which are typically filled by non-techies.

I don't doubt that employers would prefer native speakers for those jobs. But spending less time teaching Irish and religion, and more time teaching foreign languages from primary school level onwards would at least give native Irish workers a fighting chance at securing some of those jobs. The proportion of Irish workers at some of those companies is as low as 20%. The fact that we have to import workers from abroad to fill jobs here at a time when there are 400,000 people on the dole is a damning indictment of the Irish education system, and the successive governments who have presided over it.

The upper management of companies like Google and eBay have publicly berated our government during the last few years for not focusing on teaching subjects that are actually useful to high tech employers in the 21st century - such as IT literacy, science, maths, and entrepreneurial skills. It will probably take the loss of several of those companies before the government finally comes to it's senses and modernizes the Irish education system.

The Irish language lobby are ultimately going to have to get used to the idea of making Irish optional, and cutting back on the number of hours spent teaching it if we are to make progress in this area. Otherwise we are going to have to get used to the idea of many of our young people leaving our education system and going straight to the local dole queue because they lack the skills to participate in a 21st century economy.

Galia

Please prove me wrong.. up and down the country no matter what small village i go into i hear no Irish.
It is dead.
In my opinion bring it back to life or forget about it.
A person should need to use it day in day out as a normal language as we use English for it to have purpose.
Actually it would have a greater chance of revival if it was not compulsory.
It would be great if we used it as part of day to day life but no we do not .

angry kitten

deise go deo wrote: »

What use is there for Finnish or Estonian in International Society?
There are only a handful of international languages, that does not mean that all other languages are therefore valueless.

As for in Irish society, speak for yourself, thats your poinion, not fact, my opinion would be quite different.

Resenting Irish is actually becoming quite old fashioned, over the last 15 years or so the Irish Language has become popular with young people, this is shown by the explosion in the number and membership of Irish societies at third level, (UCD's has over 2000 members) another more recent phenomenon is the growth of student run Irish clubs at second level.

Given the growth of Gaelscoils, the changes in curriculum in English medium schools(getting rid of peig) and the availibility of Irish Language media like TG4, its not all that surprising.

I wonder if its popularity was largely due to snob factor during the boom time. Having returned to Ireland after working abroad, I noticed a trend had developed for aggressively Irish names for children. I was catching up with friends whose kids were using Irish first and surnames. I was at school with their parents and the only time the parents used the Irish version of their name was when the class register was being called in class.

lividduck

deise go deo wrote: »

What use is there for Finnish or Estonian in International Society?
There are only a handful of international languages, that does not mean that all other languages are therefore valueless.

As for in Irish society, speak for yourself, thats your poinion, not fact, my opinion would be quite different.

Resenting Irish is actually becoming quite old fashioned, over the last 15 years or so the Irish Language has become popular with young people, this is shown by the explosion in the number and membership of Irish societies at third level, (UCD's has over 2000 members) another more recent phenomenon is the growth of student run Irish clubs at second level.

Given the growth of Gaelscoils, the changes in curriculum in English medium schools(getting rid of peig) and the availibility of Irish Language media like TG4, its not all that surprising.

i take you also believe that the world is flat, the tooth fairy leaves money under your pillow and santy Claus is real

Dostoevsky

Wattle wrote: »

Two things they tried to force on me in school: Religion and Irish. I havent got the slightest interest in either now. Forcing things on kids just doesn't work. They arent completely stupid.

I always thought that it was outrageous that you needed Irish to get into certain university's. Irish should be optional same as French, Spanish or Chinese.

Odd, that, because I distinctly remember being forced to learn Shakespeare and a load of other pointless English nonsense. I also remember, in fact, being forced to learn every other subject I learnt in school - and indeed in being forced to go to school, and an English language school for that matter because my parents were denied a right to have me educated through Irish.

But let's just ignore all the other compulsion and use the Irish language as a scapegoat for the failures of people who are looking for something to blame for their own lack of persistence, and thus failures. :rolleyes:

PS: It's universities. If you don't know the plural in English of such a basic word, it's really not surprising that you're so keen to blame Irish for your educational weaknesses. In my experience, it's always the same sort of people who use Irish as a scapegoat for their own failures. Pathetic.

deise go deo

Yakult wrote: »

also, I notice their is no Gaeltacht areas other than on the west coastline, says alot about Ireland and a certain influence.

Waterford is not on the western coastline, neither is Meath.

deise go deo

angry kitten wrote: »

I wonder if its popularity was largely due to snob factor during the boom time. Having returned to Ireland after working abroad, I noticed a trend had developed for aggressively Irish names for children. I was catching up with friends whose kids were using Irish first and surnames. I was at school with their parents and the only time the parents used the Irish version of their name was when the class register was being called in class.

Nope, Gaelscoils were opening before the boom, and continue to be in high demand now, there are committees around the country trying to get recognition for 19 new ones at preasent.

The boom ended 5 years ago, everyone who was in Uni then has since moved on, but the Irish societies are bigger now than they were then, and still improving.
The development of Irish clubs at second level has happened since the boom.

What exactly is aggressive in giving your child an Irish name? Seriously, why so sensetive?

deise go deo

Irish Steve wrote: »

In a very limited number of cases, that's true, but it's not automatic, has to be applied for, and the criteria for granting exemption are very few. A lot of non irish immigrants may well not have the information or the skills themselves to apply for the exemption.

If the child is over 12 when they move here, its an automatic exemption.

Mr Benevolent

No, replace it with a useful subject like filling out dole and redundancy forms. Seriously, it's a useless subject. Might as well teach Esperanto.

Seomra Mushie

The King of Moo wrote: »

In school, I felt I had a more objective view of Irish. There were so many people who were getting A's in Honours in all other subjects, yet struggling with Pass Irish. I couldn't understand that, because they'd been learning it since they were 4, saw it all around them (especially in Galway where I was) and the actual level of the language being taught was quite low, compared to French anyway, which I was also learning.

The problem was that so many of them just hated the language and thought it was uncool, so they were set against it and never put in any effort with it.

I was one of those students who did well at everything else including other languages. I didn't find it uncool though, I just felt no affinity with the language like I did with French.

deise go deo

Irish Steve wrote: »

Are we really so arrogant as to INSIST that a 4 or 5 year old child that is already isolated by it's lack of language skills now has to spend significant time for their entire school experience learning a language that they are unlikely to learn effectively, and less likely to ever need in a work or social environment. They are already having to cope with 2 languages, their native language probably used at home by their family and close friends, English, as the de facto default language of business and the majority of social environments, and Irish, which is forced upon them.

No one in their environment is likely to be using Irish, so their ability to develop their skills is non existent. What a wonderful recommendation for a forward looking modern progressive society.

This is AH, time I stopped, before someone thinks I'm not actually serious!

The reality is that this is a far bigger issue than most recognise, and it's being constantly kicked back under the carpet because there's no way that its continuance can be justified in the modern European Union that Ireland is part of.

Nonsence, the EU would be supportive, it is their policy after all that kids should have their mother tounge +2

As for having no capacity to learn it, again nonsence, bilinguals find it much easier to learn languages, and young children are capable of learning several languages, exposing them to two or three or even more at a young age is not detremential, it is beneficial to their cognative development.

Odats

Have it compulsory up to Junior Cert level and then optional after that.

angry kitten

deise go deo wrote: »

Nope, Gaelscoils were opening before the boom, and continue to be in high demand now, there are committees around the country trying to get recognition for 19 new ones at preasent.

The boom ended 5 years ago, everyone who was in Uni then has since moved on, but the Irish societies are bigger now than they were then, and still improving.
The development of Irish clubs at second level has happened since the boom.

What exactly is aggressive in giving your child an Irish name? Seriously, why so sensetive?

It wasn't just the names of the kids. I felt like I was on a different planet when I returned to Ireland. I just noticed a trend towards being more Irish than the Irish, so to speak. Joe and Josephine Blogs were now Aoibhinn and Fionn So and So, with a minimum 3 kids all with Irish first, middle and surnames. People were even giving their houses Irish names. It seemed as if many people had run out of things to do with the house to impress the neighbours and half the country seemed to be spending weekends shopping in New York. So I'm curious if the sudden fashion for all things Irish was a progression in the neighbourly one upmanship,

The King of Moo

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

I was one of those students who did well at everything else including other languages. I didn't find it uncool though, I just felt no affinity with the language like I did with French.

I know for some people the language just doesn't agree with them: it's definitely not the case that everyone who does well in everything apart from Irish thinks it's uncool.

I do think that in my school at least, the proportion of students not performing well in Irish was too high to be simply down to not having an affinity with it, bad teachers or just not being good at it.

jluv

deise go deo wrote: »

If the child is over 12 when they move here, its an automatic exemption.

My son was 11 when we moved here. He didn't have to learn Irish. However he became best friends with someone who was very interested in the irish language and everything associated with it(music,culture etc)He learned more about the Irish language from his friend than he would ever have learned at school. His friend made it interesting to him to such a point that he now tries to better himself at it by listening to/reading irish. he loves sitting in on a group who are conversing in irish and while won't understand everything, he is improving. I "learned" Irish in school,went to the Gaelteach 2 summers and he is way ahead of me.

savvyav

As far as I know, being a non-Irish national doesn't automatically exempt you from Irish. If you have foreign parents and are born here, or else move here and enter the Irish education system before a certain age (I think it's 10) you have to do it.
I would hate to see Irish die out (even though my own Irish is rubbish and it was my worst subject in school) but I think the curriculum needs to be seriously over-hauled. I recently started a course with Gaelchultur and in the first lesson I learned things that I had never come across or known in my school days. I still don't get the basic grammar of it, which is awful seeing as I learned it for 14 years!
I personally believe that primary school children should only start writing Irish in 6th class- it should be all speaking and listening work until then. This would also allow them to concentrate their English literacy skills. When they get into secondary school, then get them to worry about grammar and spelling, but teach it like we do French or German i.e. as a foreign language that 99% of them won't be speaking at home. Children like talking and they won't feel self-conscious about making mistakes- therefore, they would be entering secondary school with a positive attitude towards the language and would be more likely to do well at it. I'd also introduce a foreign language into primary schools and use the same method.

deise go deo

AngryBollix wrote: »

Learning a second language isnt necessary. It certainly shouldnt be compulsory

Can you explain how learning irish improves your english. They are completely separate languages.

What improves your english is focussing on English isn't it?

Actually it has been shown that learning a second language can be an effective way of improving a child's understanding of their first.

If you only know one language, you have absoutly no perspective on it, you have nothing to compare it to.

Learning a second language at an early age...

• Has a positive effect on intellectual growth.
• Enriches and enhances a child's mental development.
• Leaves students with more flexibility in thinking, greater sensitivity to language, and a better ear for listening.
• Improves a child's understanding of his/her native language.
• Gives a child the ability to communicate with people s/he would otherwise not have the chance to know.
• Opens the door to other cultures and helps a child understand and appreciate people from other countries.
• Gives a student a head start in language requirements for college.
• Increases job opportunities in many careers where knowing another language is a real asset.

http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3651

Sindri

What I hate most about Irish is the fact that it has been ruined. Standardisation, essential to teach any language, I think partially destroyed the integrity of the language.

It's basically a bastardised version of English these days.

Other, more obscure and older words, have been lost and no longer appear in the vernacular of even the native Irish speaker.

It's become more of an academic language now.

It's a shame because when spoken correctly it is quite beautiful and expressive.

The King of Moo

savvyav wrote: »

As far as I know, being a non-Irish national doesn't automatically exempt you from Irish. If you have foreign parents and are born here, or else move here and enter the Irish education system before a certain age (I think it's 10) you have to do it.
I would hate to see Irish die out (even though my own Irish is rubbish and it was my worst subject in school) but I think the curriculum needs to be seriously over-hauled. I recently started a course with Gaelchultur and in the first lesson I learned things that I had never come across or known in my school days. I still don't get the basic grammar of it, which is awful seeing as I learned it for 14 years!
I personally believe that primary school children should only start writing Irish in 6th class- it should be all speaking and listening work until then. This would also allow them to concentrate their English literacy skills. When they get into secondary school, then get them to worry about grammar and spelling, but teach it like we do French or German i.e. as a foreign language that 99% of them won't be speaking at home. Children like talking and they won't feel self-conscious about making mistakes- therefore, they would be entering secondary school with a positive attitude towards the language and would be more likely to do well at it. I'd also introduce a foreign language into primary schools and use the same method.

That's a big problem with the way Irish is taught in schools or at least was in my day. We don't start with the complete basics like we should with a second language. Kids are thrown in at the deep end a little and introduced to proverbs and such without really learning the different tenses and grammar rules (though the way some of my French teachers taught wasn't much better).
It was as though we were expected to already know some of the basics as though we use it everyday, possibly due to the nationalist origins of the language's revival.

Some kids felt lost and behind the pace from the start and never managed to catch up.

Eathrin

Sindri wrote: »

What I hate most about Irish is the fact that it has been ruined. Standardisation, essential to teach any language, I think partially destroyed the integrity of the language.

It's basically a bastardised version of English these days.

Other, more obscure and older words, have been lost and no longer appear in the vernacular of even the native Irish speaker.

It's become more of an academic language now.

It's a shame because when spoken correctly it is quite beautiful and expressive.

It's no different to English really, all languages develop with time, English in the middle ages was nothing like it is now, development is essential to the language and the same goes for Irish. Sure English has had an influence on the language but all languages worldwide influence each other. Besides, those from the Gaeltacht regions still speak in their respective canúintí. Standardisation is necessary from a learning perspective. I believe old Irish texts and songs can still be found today anyway.

Dostoevsky

savvyav wrote: »

I recently started a course with Gaelchultur and in the first lesson I learned things that I had never come across or known in my school days. I still don't get the basic grammar of it, which is awful seeing as I learned it for 14 years!

GaelChultúr has superb teaching methods. Éamonn Ó Dónaill, who established GaelChultúr (and the exemplary www.beo.ie) after he left UCD, was the person who set the curriculum and teaching methods for the Irish course in UCD when I was there. The teaching methods in UCD, and thus in Gaelchúltur, were a breath of fresh air compared to secondary. The methods, and the people, just exuded love for the subject and a genuine desire to encourage every one of us. It inspired, and still inspires, me. I can honestly say I learnt more Irish in one year in UCD than all of secondary school. The kindness, patience and encouragement of all the professors and lecturers there will stay with me forever. That's the way you teach!

Now, to adapt that teaching philosophy and methods to a class of 15-year-olds of very mixed academic ability....

deise go deo

Sindri wrote: »

What I hate most about Irish is the fact that it has been ruined. Standardisation, essential to teach any language, I think partially destroyed the integrity of the language.

It's basically a bastardised version of English these days.

Other, more obscure and older words, have been lost and no longer appear in the vernacular of even the native Irish speaker.

It's become more of an academic language now.

It's a shame because when spoken correctly it is quite beautiful and expressive.

Ya, I hate when people use 'Carr' instead of 'Gluaisteán' for Car, it just sounds so made up and half assed.














Then again the word 'gluaisteán' was made up by the government in the 50's whereas the word 'Carr' is actually an old Irish word that can be found in literature further back than the word Car in English can.

So it just depends how you look at things really.

Dostoevsky

Sindri wrote: »

It's basically a bastardised version of English these days.

Likewise, English is a "bastardised version" of French and Latin, depending on the timeframe. Languages evolve. Has anybody glanced at the etymology of the average English word? How many of them are from, say, Essex originally? And how many originate beyond England? Indeed, English English (the language spoken in England today) could arguably be a version of some, like, Valley Girl, like you know, English. Whatever, like. But let's not complicate things!

jluv

I would be very basic in my understanding of the Irish language but I remember once an American individual stating that Irish should not be taught as it is a defunct language and has no place in business. Dear God did my blood boil!!!A very heated debate followed.(He was my father in law at the time,not a happy dinner table:rolleyes:)

Wattle

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Odd, that, because I distinctly remember being forced to learn Shakespeare and a load of other pointless English nonsense. I also remember, in fact, being forced to learn every other subject I learnt in school - and indeed in being forced to go to school, and an English language school for that matter because my parents were denied a right to have me educated through Irish.

But let's just ignore all the other compulsion and use the Irish language as a scapegoat for the failures of people who are looking for something to blame for their own lack of persistence, and thus failures. :rolleyes:

PS: It's universities. If you don't know the plural in English of such a basic word, it's really not surprising that you're so keen to blame Irish for your educational weaknesses. In my experience, it's always the same sort of people who use Irish as a scapegoat for their own failures. Pathetic.

Ah you got the wrong end of the stick entirely. I never went to University. Never wanted to go to University. Never even went to College. I went straight into working life. I just thought that it was ridiculous that Irish - to the exclusion of all other subjects - should be a pre-requisite for admission to certain universities.

Interesting that you resent learning Shakespeare yet go by the handle Dostoevsky. English literature? Bad. Russian literature? Just fine. Did you learn much about Dostoevsky in Irish class?

Sorry to burst your bubble there Mr Gaelgoir but I got on just fine in my career and in life without having to learn a virtually defunct language. No Cupla Focal required.

I'm not saying that Irish shouldn't be taught I am saying that given the fact that it's practical application outside of tiny gaeltacht areas is virtually zero that people should have the choice whether to learn it or not.

Sindri

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Likewise, English is a "bastardised version" of French and Latin, depending on the timeframe. Languages evolve. Has anybody glanced at the etymology of the average English word? How many of them are from, say, Essex originally? And how many originate beyond England? Indeed, English English (the language spoken in England today) could arguably be a version of some, like, Valley Girl, like you know, English. Whatever, like. But let's not complicate things!

I agree with you completely. It's just the modernisation of the language made it very manufactured, as it would have had to be I suppose, given the position of the language.

Irish is such an expressive language, with multiple meanings behind words and phrases, but we're taught, particularly in the east, just a very manufactured language.