Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

AngryBollix

The King of Moo wrote: »

Learning a second language helps one gain a much better knowledge of their own language though, which is something other subjects don't do.

While we could choose another language instead of Irish as our second language, which would we choose? It'd be a bit of a hassle to allow a range of languages to be offered, and Irish seems a logical choice as it's highly visible everywhere and some students will already have some knowledge of it.
It just needs to be taught to a higher standard and truly taught as a second language should be in order for students to feel the benefit of it in terms of their English and whatever other language they learn in secondary school.

While all languages share some rules, each individual language also has its own quirks, rules, idiosyncracies and illogicalities.

It may not necessarily follow that one language will improves a person knowledge of another, certainly not in all circumstances.

pragmatic1

AngryBollix wrote: »

The irish language is no longer part of our heritage. Its an outmoded means of communication that the majority of the irish population no longer speak or understand. To even suggest that the irish has any great degree of cultural significance anymore is preposterous.

The English you speak is heavily influenced by Irish so how could it no longer be part of our heritage.

deise go deo

AngryBollix wrote: »

The irish language is no longer part of our heritage. Its an outmoded means of communication that the majority of the irish population no longer speak or understand. To even suggest that the irish has any great degree of cultural significance anymore is preposterous.

Speak for your self.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

billybudd wrote: »

It is regardless of creed or anything else the official language of this state, why would we not have to learm it? because it serves no use as a money maker? is that what education is now? a tool to make money? lots of people from different religions speak Irish, what they have in common is Irish heritage regardless of the cliched ff,gaa,rc theory.

Do you really want an answer to that?

General speaking, of course it should be optional, like all subjects. At least after Junior Cert. End of. If they people really want to see it flourish really wnr this, they'll have tos sit down and learn who children think and how to interact with them. Do or die.

This bollix that it's cultural, historical, heritage is not going to mean a damn thing to a 12 year old (or some adults, for that matter) and why that is so hard for enthusiasts to grasp I will never know.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Speak for your self.

He was. As am I. Not a crime.

AngryBollix

pragmatic1 wrote: »

The English you speak is heavily influenced by Irish so how could it no longer be part of our heritage.

Along with dozens of other languages. Are they part of our heritage?

The King of Moo

AngryBollix wrote: »

While all languages share some rules, each individual language also has its own quirks, rules, idiosyncracies and illogicalities.

It may not necessarily follow that one language will improves a person knowledge of another, certainly not in all circumstances.

It doesn't matter if the rules are different. I speak English, Irish, French and Italian to at least a passable level, and though they each have their similarities and differences, they all inform my understanding of each other.

The most important thing about learning a second language, in terms of its relationship with one's mother tongue, is simply becoming aware that there are certain principles and structures underpinning languages.
The languages might be completely different from each other, but the important thing is that the experience of learning a language as a non-native speaker gives one a similar perspective on one's mother tongue, thinking about it in terms of how it's put together, which is something we don't tend to do with our native tongue as we pick it up mostly from hearing it spoken, and rarely have the grasp of its grammar that an advanced non-native speaker does.

Someone with an awareness of the principles of English is less likely, for example, to write "your" in place of "you're," as they would be more conscious that "you're" is a contraction of "you are," a combination of the pronoun "you" and the second person singular form of the verb "to be."

AngryBollix

deise go deo wrote: »

Speak for your self.

The greatest works of irish literature have been written in English.

Pygmalion, Waiting for godot, Ulysses and dozens of world famous literary masterpieces.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

He was. As am I. Not a crime.

Fine, let me put it this way.


Irish is the first national langage of the state, spoken by thousands of people all over the country, and can be seen in every part of the country, a language which the vast majority of people in the country know at least the basics of and which forms part of the linguistic heritage of almost the entire population.
To even suggest that the Irish Language no longer has any great degree of cultural significance is utterly preposterous.

AngryBollix

deise go deo wrote: »

Fine, let me put it this way.


Irish is the first national langage of the state, spoken by thousands of people all over the country, and can be seen in every part of the country, a language which the vast majority of people in the country know at least the basics of and which forms part of the linguistic heritage of almost the entire population.
To even suggest that the Irish Language no longer has any great degree of cultural significance is utterly preposterous.

Its the first language by name.

Not in practice

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Fine, let me put it this way.


Irish is the first national langage of the state, spoken by thousands of people all over the country, and can be seen in every part of the country, a language which the vast majority of people in the country know at least the basics of and which forms part of the linguistic heritage of almost the entire population.
To even suggest that the Irish Language no longer has any great degree of cultural significance is utterly preposterous.

Mmiscommunication on my part, there, but it is not part of my culture, my heritage or my identity. I've had this discussion with you before: you're just going to have to accept that some people do not see the langauge with the same degree of significance or importance and it's perfectly acceptable to feel that way.

Even if you're only 15.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

it is not part of my culture, my heritage or my identity.

Thats grand, I don't really care tbh.

The point is that just because it has no significance to you, does not mean it has no significance.

AngryBollix

deise go deo wrote: »

Speak for your self.

I did

deise go deo

AngryBollix wrote: »

The irish language is no longer part of our heritage.

Who are you talking about here exactly? Do you often refer to yourself as 'our'? If so, I suggest a quick refresher course in English.

AngryBollix

deise go deo wrote: »

Who are you talking about here exactly? Do you often refer to yourself as 'our'? If so, I suggest a quick refresher course in English.

Do you speak on behalf of the irish nation?

deise go deo

AngryBollix wrote: »

Do you speak on behalf of the irish nation?

No, I speak on behalf of myself.

You have not answered my question btw.

Chuck Stone

Judgement Day wrote: »

This post encapsulates my view on the language - Irish isn't our collective heritage, it is the majority community's language/heritage which is inflicted on everybody.

I think you'll find that it was the English language that was 'inflicted' upon the majority on this island long before you developed your very own persecution complex.

amacachi

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats grand, I don't really care tbh.

But you still think it should be forced on kids who feel that way? Sounds like you do care.

NakedNNettles

Irish...be done with it.

Stick it down under some cultural studies or something and make it optional for students.

It's irrelevant in this day and age of globalisation.

People want to stand on their own two feet and make a living when they leave school, learning Irish as a subject isn't doing anything to benefit that cause.

deise go deo

amacachi wrote: »

But you still think it should be forced on kids who feel that way? Sounds like you do care.

Do I care if Ikky Poo2 likes Irish, or thinks it has any significance?
Nope, coulden't give a fiddlers tbh.


Do I care about the future of the language? Yes.

Wibbs

The King of Moo wrote: »

Of course it's a genuine grievance for some (who might point to the fact that Maths, at least, is more useful) but methinks for some others it's just an excuse because they weren't good at it in school, whether due to having bad teachers, not thinking the subject was cool (due possibly to groupthink), or simply not having a knack for languages.

Or of all the subjects they take, they just can't see the point of Irish? That for most they instinctively realise that it's not "our" language?

The uncool bit? TBH and certainly when I was growing up it would have been seen by many if not most I knew as the language of Irish teachers, cross eyed chuckies, fainne(sp) wearing pseuds and backward flatcapped boggers in possession of a whine rather than an accent. Back then Peig Sayers and all that (largely invented) post Victorian diddley eye shíte tended to copperfasten that for many. That has changed to a large degree, though irrelevant born again boggers like Eamon O'Cuiv* and his ilk should shuffle off into the sunset homes for the terminally fcuking daft.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

There are loads of largely artificial jobs created for Irish speakers here.

FYP

deise go deo wrote: »

What use is there for Finnish or Estonian in International Society?

Eh because the Finnish and Estonians actually speak Finnish and Estonian. A person could live in Helsinki or Tallinn their whole lives without knowing another language. Yea Ted try doing that in Dublin, or Cork, or Waterford etc entirely as Gaelige. You born again Gaelgoirs seem to struggle with this point. Word to the wise this example and others trotted out are not comparable.







*Dublin born and bred, so where did he get that accent? And were did he get the daft and inaccurate spelling of the family name? The yahoo even suggested a return to the british commonwealth. The blood of the DeValeras certainly flows through him alright.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats grand, I don't really care tbh.

The point is that just because it has no significance to you, does not mean it has no significance.

If I was 15 years old and wantd to stop learning it, would you have the same stance?

LordSutch

angry kitten wrote: »

Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Optional

Realistically my kids & most of their peers will leave school with only the cupla focal, and this has always been the way for most Irish families since the foundation of the state. I fully expect the current compulsory teaching of Irish to continue for ever, even though the fomat doesn't work, and never will work. If ever the force feeding of Irish was going to work it would have been during the decades immediately after independence 1930s-70s when the country was in total isolation, and was steeped in nationalism.

This topic has been done to death many times before.

It should definitely be made optional for Leaving Cert. It's ridiculous that the government are putting so much effort into trying to keep it going, almost as ridiculous as the ways in which they try to keep it going.

On top of that I think it's wholly unfair that people who might have a huge aptitude for certain subjects but a low aptitude for Irish will suffer in the leaving cert.

billybudd

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Do you really want an answer to that?

General speaking, of course it should be optional, like all subjects. At least after Junior Cert. End of. If they people really want to see it flourish really wnr this, they'll have tos sit down and learn who children think and how to interact with them. Do or die.

This bollix that it's cultural, historical, heritage is not going to mean a damn thing to a 12 year old (or some adults, for that matter) and why that is so hard for enthusiasts to grasp I will never know.

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background, was it not a nice moment last year when the queen of England spoke Irish in her speech?

Gophur

angry kitten wrote: »

Looking at the teachers protest on the news this evening got me thinking about the teaching of Irish in schools....................

English is "compulsory" too, though you wouldn't think so by the spelling in the title of the thread!

LordSutch

billybudd wrote: »

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background, was it not a nice moment last year when the queen of England spoke Irish in her speech?

As long as its an optional identity, then that's ok, and as regards the Queen speaking Irish, yes I too tought that was a lovely moment, although I think Latin might also have fitted the bill )

Make Irish optional.

mariebeth

I don't want to see Irish die out, but I do think it should be optional, at least at Leaving Certificate. As for having honours Irish to teach primary school, I think that's a joke considering the standard of Irish I was taught in both primary & secondary.

deise go deo

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If I was 15 years old and wantd to stop learning it, would you have the same stance?

If you were 15 and wanted to stop learning it, then I would have no problem with that, my objection to making it optional is not because I have a personal interest in every individual student learning Irish, but rather because allowing the government to make Irish optional would in essence be allowing them to abdicate their responsibility to the proper promotion of the Irish Language once and for all.
Making Irish optional is a political cop out, I have no intention of allowing the government to take the easy way out, there are serious, long overdue reforms needed in the area of Irish language education, the government needs to tackle those issues before there can be any question of making Irish optional.

Making Irish optional now would be akin to kicking the stool out from under its feet, there needs to be other supports are in place for the language in the education system before that happens.

NakedNNettles

billybudd wrote: »

Its part of my heritage and many others so therefore it cant be ''end of'', its an identity for everyone born on this Island regardless of background, was it not a nice moment last year when the queen of England spoke Irish in her speech?

Yeah it's part of our heritage but totally pointless, and I knew it was pointless all of 20 years ago when it was being forced down my neck.

Lets be honest 5 years in primary and 5 years in secondary, that's 10 years :eek: learning a friggin' language that's only spoken by a few pockets in Ireland. POINTLESS

Now here I am today having emigrated like many others, wishing that something useful had been taught which would have been more beneficial in my day to day life.

Nice moments aren't enough.