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Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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    #242
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    True, but again, I would argue that that's in place by age 15! If it isn't, then bigger questions have to be asked and forcign the student to do ordinary maths for the leaving is really not going to make everything okay.


    Maybe past 15 is when they realise that there is consequences to the mismanagement of monies, as i have stated before not everythng you learn has to be benneficial to what your aspirations are in life and what you want to become but if lets say i70% of what you are interested in or what you are good at is being given to you as a platform to learn then leaving 30% free to explore different topics is good in my opinion and haveing math in my opinion even basic math would be a good thing.


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    #243
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    billybudd wrote: »
    equally interesting and depressing. i do think math should be compulsory just for the fact that i think everyone should have a basic understanding of it as it can and should teach you budgets etc on how to manage money, apart from that i would be in favour of teaching students to their strong points.

    I also agree that Maths* should be compulsory along with English and the other core subjects, but Irish is not a necessity, its a niche language, a relic from the past like Latin, that should of course be preserved & cherished by those who wish to study it, but not imposed on the majority of Irish students who don't need it. Irish should not be there in the foreground dominating the curriculum, looming there as the subject that you just cant escape from! Most, if not all students will spend thousands of hours having Irish hammered (metaphorically these days) into them, and yet most will never speak it again after their school years . . . .


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    #244
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    LordSutch wrote: »
    but Irish is not a necessity, its a niche language, a relic from the past like Latin, that should of course be preserved & cherished by those who wish to study it,
    How the hell can a modern day living language be a relic from the past, If Irish is a relic from the past then so is every other language alive today.


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    #245
    Nothingbetter2d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    i think irish should not be compulsory... as someone way back in the thread argued that our kids would not use spanish or french or german more than they would irish.. i call bull****.... look at all the jobs being advertised right now? they are all looking for multilingual skilled people.... yet NONE are looking for any irish speakers.... its all spanish/german/french/italian/and the nordic languages.


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    #246
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    @Billybudd. What's this "math" craic? It's maths on this side of the Atlantic.


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    #247
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    @Billybudd. What's this "math" craic? It's maths on this side of the Atlantic.

    Math is correct. Maths It's an Irish thing, so the 's' has been dropped (or at least become optional)..... Also my spell checker is US English and it complains about my Maths (and would probably explode if it saw a fadda)


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    #248
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    How the hell can a modern day living language be a relic from the past, If Irish is a relic from the past then so is every other language alive today.
    Agreed CG, however it is a minority language and a small one at that.. Like he said a niche language artificially inflated as something it's not, both in fluency, numbers and cultural relevance to the majority of the people in this country. How would one hope to change that for the better? Acknowledge this for a start.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #249
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Agreed CG, however it is a minority language and a small one at that.
    .
    What's with the "however", that has no relevence to my point.
    Like he said a niche language
    If you consider the various parts of countries as "niches" then yes, though that is a very odd way of describing geographical locations.
    artificially inflated as something it's not, both in fluency, numbers and cultural relevance to the majority of the people in this country.
    Well since it is the people of Ireland themselves who exaggerate the numbers on their census forms, it must have some cultural relevance to large numbers of people. I bet none of the more vocal "anti-Irish language" folk exaggerate their ability with the language.
    How would one hope to change that for the better? Acknowledge this for a start.
    Change what? The attitude of the Irish people? I wouldn't. It's not for me to want or try to do.


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    #250
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    conorhal wrote: »
    Math is correct. Maths It's an Irish thing, so the 's' has been dropped (or at least become optional)..... Also my spell checker is US English and it complains about my Maths (and would probably explode if it saw a fadda)

    Forget spell checker "US English" Its most definately 'Maths' on this side of the Atlantic.


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    #251
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The official name of the country is Ireland in english. ;) Though interestingly enough because of the wording in the constitution it's Eire in every other language.

    So If I posted three letters from say the Netherands The first marked "Ireland" the second marked "Ierland" and the third marked "Eire" The first two might go missing ?


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    #252
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    deise go deo wrote: »
    As is the case with many who try to obstruct the development of the language, is'nt that so, Keith old chap?
    Like who? People can learn it if they want. The point is it is badly managed and badly advertised by people with an agenda.


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    #253
    Patriciamc93
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Patriciamc93


    Ok................. basically Irish is the most screwed up subject which is thought for the leaving and junior cert.

    I have just finished the leaving cert so know what the course entailed. Basically if you had no basic grammer then you were screwed. I had none because I was not thought it properly in primary. The course now is all about how much you can remember not about actually learning the language. And most people know that. I among the majority of my year have no knowledge of the irish language now.

    The way I think that Irish should be thought is that there are two different subjects for Irish.
    1) Irish: where you learn grammer, vocab, speaking it and how to write pieces. This subject should be an exam subject but don't actually get any point in the leaving cert for it. Perhaps even doing the subject exam in 5th year so it doesn't place any extra strain. And whos gonna study for an exam that they won't get marks in if they have 6 others to study for. There would be no poems, pros or rote crap to be learned off.

    2) Irish litrateur: Not everybody like this part of Irish. so for those who do have this subject that people learn about poets and plays etc. If students had a higher level of Irish by doing the above subject from 1st year then people would like to chose this. Personnally if I was taught the language properly I would love to have learned about poets and irish history.


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    #254
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    .
    What's with the "however", that has no relevence to my point.
    Who said it did? It was an addition to your point, the "however" part kinda giving the game away. It's not all about you you know :)
    If you consider the various parts of countries as "niches" then yes, though that is a very odd way of describing geographical locations.
    It's not a way of describing geographical locations. It's a way of describing the common usage of the language and it's a "niche market" in practical terms whichever way you look at it.
    Well since it is the people of Ireland themselves who exaggerate the numbers on their census forms, it must have some cultural relevance to large numbers of people.
    Ah bless, now you're joking. I hope. If it had any cultural relevance beyond lip service we'd hardly need to exaggerate now would we? And this after nigh on a century of the promotion and compulsory promotion of the language at that in many strands of Irish life.
    I bet none of the more vocal "anti-Irish language" folk exaggerate their ability with the language.
    Because regardless of their position at least they're not exaggerating?
    Change what? The attitude of the Irish people? I wouldn't. It's not for me to want or try to do.
    Well given that the vast majority of the Irish people vote with their tongues and can barely string a sentence of the culturally relevant language together, It does seem that ship has sailed anyway.
    deise go deo wrote:
    As is the case with many who try to obstruct the development of the language, is'nt that so, Keith old chap?
    To be fair to Keith, he's not once said anything about the language should die/it's shíte/etc(certainly a lot less than some "locals"), or that it shouldn't have some support. Indeed he's described it as a nice language, but can't quite get some of the contradictions surrounding the language. He'd not be alone, nor would someone require a collection of orange sashes and bowler hats in their wardrobe to see said contradictions.
    KeithAFC wrote:
    Like who? People can learn it if they want. The point is it is badly managed and badly advertised by people with an agenda.
    Often true, however the daftness that can follow the Irish language around pales into insignificance when compared to the daftness that follows something like Ulster Scots. As far as agendas go anyway.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #255
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    @Billybudd. What's this "math" craic? It's maths on this side of the Atlantic.


    sorry, mats.


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    #256
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Often true, however the daftness that can follow the Irish language around pales into insignificance when compared to the daftness that follows something like Ulster Scots. As far as agendas go anyway.
    I don't promote Ulster Scots anyway.


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    #257
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Wibbs wrote: »
    To be fair to Keith, he's not once said anything about the language should die/it's shíte/etc(certainly a lot less than some "locals"), or that it shouldn't have some support. Indeed he's described it as a nice language, but can't quite get some of the contradictions surrounding the language. He'd not be alone, nor would someone require a collection of orange sashes and bowler hats in their wardrobe to see said contradictions.

    The point was not directed at Keith specifically, just pointing out that there are many people, especially in his part of the Island, who are vocally against the Language as part of their own political agenda.


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    #258
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    No, you have been arguing in favour of compulsory subjects and against choice for most of the last two pages.
    In what way is offer choice a half-assed policy? what problems do you see it causing?

    I have not been arguing in favor of compulsion, I have been arguing against choice for the sake of choice. If the reason for introducing choice is to improve the education system and the educational outcomes of the students involved, and it is implemented a way as to prevent any negative impact, then I would be all for it.

    For the record, I would have an equally poor opinion of someone calling for compulsion for the sake of compulsion.

    Again, you say poorly thought out of it's some sort of self evident point. In what way is it bad?

    It is poorly tought out because the reason for it is not to improve the education system, it is to give choice for the sake of it, because ot is supposedly a ''right'' regardless of the impact it has on the education of the students involved.

    You don't have to look far to see a case where the introduction of choice has had an unforseen negative impact. It happened in England when the made languages optional, the number of students taking a second language as a subject collapsed dramatically accross the education system, even before the point from which languages were made optional.
    Learning a second language is an extreamly important part of any education because of the cognative developmental benefits it can bring.
    I would consider the introduction of choice in the English education system with regard languages to have had an extreamly negative impact on the quality of education recieved by English students.


    To those that think the introduction of choice can not possibly have a negative impact, how about doing some research before demanding your opinions be put into effect.


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    #259
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Who said it did? It was an addition to your point, the "however" part kinda giving the game away. It's not all about you you know :)
    No it's not about me, it's about not being able to make a simple linguistic comment about the language, without someone replying "true, however <<insert anything you please that is irrelevant to the point>>".
    Think about it Wibbs, why address your grievances to someone who just makes such a comment, why not to someone who says Irish is our native tongue or who want's to make the world Gaelic. You have more of an agenda regarding Irish than I do. ;)
    It's not a way of describing geographical locations. It's a way of describing the common usage of the language and it's a "niche market" in practical terms whichever way you look at it.
    The way I look at Irish is based on the way I have experienced it, that is, as the spoken language and the method of communication of communities I have visited for extended periods of time, similar to my experiences of Welsh and German.
    Ah bless, now you're joking. I hope. If it had any cultural relevance beyond lip service we'd hardly need to exaggerate now would we? And this after nigh on a century of the promotion and compulsory promotion of the language at that in many strands of Irish life. Because regardless of their position at least they're not exaggerating?
    I'm not getting into this "if people valued Irish they would speak it" argument, it's been done to death and ignores the realities of day to day life verses the commitment needed to learn a language.
    The simple fact is though people may not speak the language most Irish people do see it and value it as part of our culture and making comments like "it has no cultural relevance to the majority" is just plain wrong.
    Even "polls" here in AH which has high numbers from the Eastern side of the island and a quite young following shows this.
    Well given that the vast majority of the Irish people vote with their tongues and can barely string a sentence of the culturally relevant language together, It does seem that ship has sailed anyway.
    See above.


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    #260
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,782 ✭✭✭SeanW


    deise go deo wrote: »
    To those that think the introduction of choice can not possibly have a negative impact, how about doing some research before demanding your opinions be put into effect.
    Let me share with you something personal. When I was 12, I left Ireland and spent some time in the United States. There was a much larger emphasis on elective subjects and I no longer wasted a plurality of my efforts learning religion and dead languages.

    From the start, one of electives I got was Computers. I was lousy at it the first year but it had grabbed my interest so I tried again, in my 2nd year of U.S. school, that being the 8th grade, or the final year of Middle school. I did much better at it there and at that time I found my calling.

    My post 233 obviously had faded from the front page, so I will summarise the nub of it:
    SeanW wrote:
    To claim that allowing the educational experience be tailored to the interests and capabilities of individual students would be detrimental to them, as you seem to be, is both bizarre and troubling.


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    #261
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    the reason why we have such negative attitudes towards Irish nowadays is because it's forced on students in school - so make it optional and students will give Irish a chance. It makes no difference imo whether you do Irish or not for the LC, as most people won't ever use it again. You're only learning Irish for another 2 years. (if it was optional for the LC) Maybe even take Irish out of schools, replace it with a newer more useful subject such as Driving Skills (just an idea) and let people pay for their own lessons outside of school if they want to.
    The language is pointless for most people anyway. We don't need it.


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    #262
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    The language is pointless for most people anyway. We don't need it.

    We do not REALLY want it either. I have been in every county in Ireland and I never once saw anyone buying an Irish language newspaper or book. Never saw a menu in a restaurant in Irish. Irish is a dead and ugly language, hundreds of millions of euro are wasted on it already. Time to make it "not compulsory". Let whoever wants to study it learn it. Do not ram it down the throats of everyone else at their expense.


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    #263
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    gigino wrote: »
    We do not REALLY want it either. I have been in every county in Ireland and I never once saw anyone buying an Irish language newspaper or book. Never saw a menu in a restaurant in Irish. Irish is a dead and ugly language, hundreds of millions of euro are wasted on it already. Time to make it "not compulsory". Let whoever wants to study it learn it. Do not ram it down the throats of everyone else at their expense.

    I have never seen anyone buying a German Language newspaper, I guess German must be dead too, you could tell me to go to Germany, and that would be a fairly valid point, but then again there are plenty of places I could tell you where to go.



    Anyone get the wordplay?


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    #264
    saa
    Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭saa


    I don't mind it being compulsory but there should be more exceptions made, the idea that you could fail your lc or not get into a course that has nothing to do with Irish is ridiculous as we all learn differently, a more flexible ordinary level exam would be a compromise.


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    #265
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,782 ✭✭✭SeanW


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I have never seen anyone buying a German Language newspaper, I guess German must be dead too, you could tell me to go to Germany, and that would be a fairly valid point, but then again there are plenty of places I could tell you where to go.
    Is German language education compulsory in Ireland?


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    #266
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    saa wrote: »
    I don't mind it being compulsory but there should be more exceptions made, the idea that you could fail your lc or not get into a course that has nothing to do with Irish is ridiculous as we all learn differently, a more flexible ordinary level exam would be a compromise.


    You don't fail your LC if you fail Irish, course requirements are up the the Universities, not Irish being compulsory at second level.


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    #267
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    gigino wrote: »
    We do not REALLY want it either. I have been in every county in Ireland and I never once saw anyone buying an Irish language newspaper or book. Never saw a menu in a restaurant in Irish. Irish is a dead and ugly language, hundreds of millions of euro are wasted on it already. Time to make it "not compulsory". Let whoever wants to study it learn it. Do not ram it down the throats of everyone else at their expense.
    Its far from dead and one thing it aint is ugly. Its a beautiful, rich language. Book Irish isnt the nicest but what people in the gaeltacht use on a daily basis can in no way be described as ugly.


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    #268
    l.m
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭l.m


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    The Leaving Cert exam is also far too easy

    Did you take foundation level or something :s


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    #269
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    l.m wrote: »
    Did you take foundation level or something :s

    Nope, honours. Relative to other subjects it's much easier, not even taking into account the amazingly easy oral and aural exams.

    The problem with making the exam easier is that it doesn't solve any of the major issues with the way Irish is taught in schools and is a quick fix to artificially increase the numbers of Irish speakers.

    The basics are barely covered at all, literature is brought in much too early and there are no attempts to make it interesting and fun.

    On paper the exam is easy, but students are going into it not having been taught the language properly, not even knowing the different tenses, for example, and being prejudiced against the language because many teachers don't make it interesting, so in reality, it's difficult for lots of students, or seems to be.

    It should be taught properly in primary school, and maybe up to Junior Cert. Some folk from the Department of Education should go to Germany or Austria and observe some English classes and talk to English teachers to see how to properly teach a second language. They could even go to a language school teaching English in Ireland to see how to do it properly.
    Then it should be made optional, and anyone who keeps it on would be well-prepared for the Leaving Cert.
    But even someone who had been taught Irish properly in primary school only would probably have better Irish than someone who got an A in the Leaving Cert under the current system.


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    #270
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,171 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I have not been arguing in favor of compulsion, I have been arguing against choice for the sake of choice. If the reason for introducing choice is to improve the education system and the educational outcomes of the students involved, and it is implemented a way as to prevent any negative impact, then I would be all for it.

    That's a bit different from when you refer to choice as "not a right", as an "ideological quest" and a "poorly thought our idea."
    For the record, I would have an equally poor opinion of someone calling for compulsion for the sake of compulsion.
    ...which is entirely in contradiction with keepign the Irish langauge compulsory forthe sake of compulsion. You also said, "what's liking it got to do it [learnign Irish]?, which to me, indicates that you really don't care what happens to Leavign Cert Irish as long it's kept mandatory.

    Which, let's face it, is the crux of your argument. This is not about complsion v choice, it's about your fear that 15 year olds will drop Irish given the chance.
    It is poorly tought out because the reason for it is not to improve the education system, it is to give choice for the sake of it, because ot is supposedly a ''right'' regardless of the impact it has on the education of the students involved.
    The point is to improve the student. The system serves the student, tnot the other way around.
    You don't have to look far to see a case where the introduction of choice has had an unforseen negative impact. It happened in England when the made languages optional, the number of students taking a second language as a subject collapsed dramatically accross the education system, even before the point from which languages were made optional.
    You don't have to look far to find the exact opposite either. Just one page back would do it.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77271918&postcount=260
    Learning a second language is an extreamly important part of any education because of the cognative developmental benefits it can bring.
    I would consider the introduction of choice in the English education system with regard languages to have had an extreamly negative impact on the quality of education recieved by English students.
    So you would be completely fine if they were given the option to drop irish as long as they studied a different lanuge in it's place?
    To those that think the introduction of choice can not possibly have a negative impact, how about doing some research before demanding your opinions be put into effect.
    Prove to me how forcing a child to d osubjects he has no use for aids the child.

    To sum up?
    you do not give a **** about the system. It suits your needs, so it suits you. You do not give a **** about the students. As long as they show up, it suits your needs.
    Stop pretending you do.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #271
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    gigino wrote: »
    We do not REALLY want it either. I have been in every county in Ireland and I never once saw anyone buying an Irish language newspaper or book. Never saw a menu in a restaurant in Irish. Irish is a dead and ugly language, hundreds of millions of euro are wasted on it already. Time to make it "not compulsory". Let whoever wants to study it learn it. Do not ram it down the throats of everyone else at their expense.

    "ugly"? Please do explain.


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