Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Tar.Aldarion

It was optional, I chose not to learn it in school :pac:

meep

deise go deo wrote: »

Actually it has been shown that learning a second language can be an effective way of improving a child's understanding of their first.

If you only know one language, you have absoutly no perspective on it, you have nothing to compare it to.

Learning a second language at an early age...

• Has a positive effect on intellectual growth.
• Enriches and enhances a child's mental development.
• Leaves students with more flexibility in thinking, greater sensitivity to language, and a better ear for listening.
• Improves a child's understanding of his/her native language.
• Gives a child the ability to communicate with people s/he would otherwise not have the chance to know.
• Opens the door to other cultures and helps a child understand and appreciate people from other countries.
• Gives a student a head start in language requirements for college.
• Increases job opportunities in many careers where knowing another language is a real asset.

http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3651

Agree 100% with that. But I'd prefer my children to have the choice of learning what I would consider a much more useful second language and still gain those benefits.

deise go deo

meep wrote: »

Agree 100% with that. But I'd prefer my children to have the choice of learning what I would consider a much more useful second language and still gain those benefits.

Thats fine. I would ask though, unless your preparing your kids for emigration, what language do you consider to be more useful than Irish?

billybudd

angry kitten wrote: »

Looking at the teachers protest on the news this evening got me thinking about the teaching of Irish in schools. Generations of us went through daily Irish lessons in both primary and secondary school and while I can pronounce the names on road and housing estate signs etc, I couldn't tell you what they mean.

My point is that leaving patriotism out of the equation, would the money not be better spent retaining teachers that are actually teaching something that will be of practical use to children in their future lives. Instead of cutting remedial teachers and special needs and guidance counselors etc could the government just not take a realistic approach to education in modern day Ireland.

Well history serves no purpose either should that be done way with also? do you know how many people people in the world speak Irish? over 1 million people worldwide can speak competent irish and also it is still the official language of this country. maybe you should spend some time in the gaeltacht regions and see how important it is to some people before making such outrageous remarks.

gigino

Irish should be optional, not compulsory. Too much time and money is wasted on it. That turns people off it.

kowloon

deise go deo wrote: »

Waterford is not on the western coastline, neither is Meath.

We have been thinking about moving though.

billybudd

gigino wrote: »

Irish should be optional, not compulsory. Too much time and money is wasted on it. That turns people off it.

Too much money wasted on an array of things in this country, i dont think our heritage should be thrown away cheapily regardless of whether the majority bother to learn it or not, i would feel very sad if Irish was eradicated from our country.

hotmail.com

billybudd wrote: »

Too much money wasted on an array of things in this country, i dont think our heritage should be thrown away cheapily regardless of whether the majority bother to learn it or not, i would feel very sad if Irish was eradicated from our country.

Isn't there more important things in the world than some fanciful idea of a heritage...like war, poverty, disease etc etc...it's a funny to feel sad about a langauge that is really dead anyway, just held alive by government support.

keith16

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who thinks it's a waste of time to learn anything. Be it Irish or whatever.

kowloon

billybudd wrote: »

Too much money wasted on an array of things in this country, i dont think our heritage should be thrown away cheapily regardless of whether the majority bother to learn it or not, i would feel very sad if Irish was eradicated from our country.

And yet our history is an optional subject. I hear they're even making it optional in the Junior Cert.

Leaving aside the utility of Irish, I don't think it's fair to force anyone to do any particular subject for the leaving cert.
Junior cert is fine, but once things are at a level that dictates your third level options you should be allowed play to your strengths.

Nodin

kowloon wrote: »

And yet our history is an optional subject. I hear they're even making it optional in the Junior Cert.

...............

Feckin disgrace, tbh.

MysticalRain

billybudd wrote: »

Too much money wasted on an array of things in this country, i dont think our heritage should be thrown away cheapily regardless of whether the majority bother to learn it or not, i would feel very sad if Irish was eradicated from our country.

I don't think anybody is really talking about discarding Irish altogether - it isn't a binary choice here. Only making Irish optional and cutting back the amount hours spent teaching it in favour of more practical subjects.

As for discarding History as a subject. I, for one, learned far more about Irish culture and heritage in a history class than I ever did in an Irish language one. History is optional beyond JC, and there is far less time spent teaching it than Irish.

kowloon

Nodin wrote: »

Feckin disgrace, tbh.

If people aren't interested they won't learn it anyway.
I reckon these things are better served left in the hands of those with enthusiasm.

kowloon

MysticalRain wrote: »

As for discarding History as a subject. I, for one, learned far more about Irish culture and heritage in a history class than I ever did in an Irish language one. History is optional beyond JC, and there is far less time spent teaching it than Irish.

I always thought there was far more to be had from learning about our past in the language we now speak then from learning how to tell someone about a holiday in Spain or going shopping in a bastardised version of an language we once spoke.

Eathrin

keith16 wrote: »

I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who thinks it's a waste of time to learn anything. Be it Irish or whatever.

It's a terrible attitude, I agree. There's no benefit in asking "What's the point" of everything. Embrace all you can.

billybudd

hotmail.com wrote: »

Isn't there more important things in the world than some fanciful idea of a heritage...like war, poverty, disease etc etc...it's a funny to feel sad about a langauge that is really dead anyway, just held alive by government support.

Three of the most profitable things in the world today.

1. war

2. poverty

3. disease


Maybe if we all get back to our own heritage we can apprecitate not only our own but other heritages and also become closer as inhabitants of this world and help each other out regardless of social class.

Corporations like to destroy heritage so that people regardless of backgorund think as one and more importanly buy as one and by corporations i mean world governments.

meep

deise go deo wrote: »

Thats fine. I would ask though, unless your preparing your kids for emigration, what language do you consider to be more useful than Irish?

Almost any.

Any modern European language; Spanish, German, French, Italian. Or looking further afield, Japanese or Chinese.

You know, languages that may prove useful should they elect to broaden their horizons in future through travel rather than navel-gazing at home waiting for something to happen.

Or maybe such an approach would help in the world of business where they would have the option of staying at home but working with clients, suppliers or partners abroad.

Or any other number of careers where language facility provides options and opportunities either at home or abroad.

You know, useful, applicable learning.

And don't get me started on how we should actually be diverting resources we're wasting on Irish into science education.

I'd draw attention to PISA (http://www.erc.ie/?p=55) reports over recent years. The sharp decline of Irish results is shocking;

In 2009, the mean reading score for Ireland was not significantly different from the OECD average and indicated a large decline since 2000. Ireland’s country ranking shifted from fifth out of 29 OECD countries in 2000 to 17th out of 34 OECD countries in 2009

AngryBollix

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Jesus but these threads are depressing. I cant talk,read or write Irish therefore it shouldn't be taught/has no value.We're fcukin doomed as a nation.

Speaking irish isnt going to save us

Judgement Day

billybudd wrote: »

Too much money wasted on an array of things in this country, i dont think our heritage should be thrown away cheapily regardless of whether the majority bother to learn it or not, i would feel very sad if Irish was eradicated from our country.

This post encapsulates my view on the language - Irish isn't our collective heritage, it is the majority community's language/heritage which is inflicted on everybody. I was fortunate to attend a private primary school which didn't teach Irish but not before I had spent a year or two in my local C of I National school which inflicted the language on me. At a very 'West Brit' secondary school I once again had to learn Irish - something to do with Department rules about payment of teachers - but was able to opt out of sitting the Leaving Cert Irish exam. So how many years/hours did I waste when I could have been learning something useful? I know enough Irish - self taught - to understand the origins of place names which I find quite interesting but apart from that I have no interest in it. Forcing everybody to learn Irish is an anachronism from the days when to be Irish one had to be RC, play GAA and vote FF. Is it any wonder a sizeable minority of the population in the North East of the island want nothing to do with this State?

pragmatic1

angry kitten wrote: »

It wasn't just the names of the kids. I felt like I was on a different planet when I returned to Ireland. I just noticed a trend towards being more Irish than the Irish, so to speak. Joe and Josephine Blogs were now Aoibhinn and Fionn So and So, with a minimum 3 kids all with Irish first, middle and surnames. People were even giving their houses Irish names. It seemed as if many people had run out of things to do with the house to impress the neighbours and half the country seemed to be spending weekends shopping in New York. So I'm curious if the sudden fashion for all things Irish was a progression in the neighbourly one upmanship,

What exactly is wrong with that? I have an Irish name and I'm glad I have a name that actually means something/has a meaning than some bull**** tacky anglicised name.

pragmatic1

AngryBollix wrote: »

Speaking irish isnt going to save us

No. But the shortsighted attitude of many Irish people is one of the main reasons we're in this mess.

billybudd

kowloon wrote: »

And yet our history is an optional subject. I hear they're even making it optional in the Junior Cert.

Leaving aside the utility of Irish, I don't think it's fair to force anyone to do any particular subject for the leaving cert.
Junior cert is fine, but once things are at a level that dictates your third level options you should be allowed play to your strengths.

There is this idiotic thinking in this country that we are only capable of learning one or at a stretch two languages, we are capable of learning many languages its just that the image of it being to difficult is enforced into us that we choose the easy option: English!

I just think our national language should be preserved for us and for future generations and that we should start getting this mentality into our kids now that its possible to learn many languages and it should be significant that Irish is one of them, i would rather waste money on education than anything else, witout it were nothing.

pragmatic1

Sindri wrote: »

What I hate most about Irish is the fact that it has been ruined. Standardisation, essential to teach any language, I think partially destroyed the integrity of the language.

It's basically a bastardised version of English these days.

Other, more obscure and older words, have been lost and no longer appear in the vernacular of even the native Irish speaker.

It's become more of an academic language now.

It's a shame because when spoken correctly it is quite beautiful and expressive.

Come up to the Donegal gaeltacht and you'll hear pure Irish. Way softer on the ear than english.

billybudd

Judgement Day wrote: »

This post encapsulates my view on the language - Irish isn't our collective heritage, it is the majority community's language/heritage which is inflicted on everybody. I was fortunate to attend a private primary school which didn't teach Irish but not before I had spent a year or two in my local C of I National school which inflicted the language on me. At a very 'West Brit' secondary school I once again had to learn Irish - something to do with Department rules about payment of teachers - but was able to opt out of sitting the Leaving Cert Irish exam. So how many years/hours did I waste when I could have been learning something useful? I know enough Irish - self taught - to understand the origins of place names which I find quite interesting but apart from that I have no interest in it. Forcing everybody to learn Irish is an anachronism from the days when to be Irish one had to be RC, play GAA and vote FF. Is it any wonder a sizeable minority of the population in the North East of the island want nothing to do with this State?

It is regardless of creed or anything else the official language of this state, why would we not have to learm it? because it serves no use as a money maker? is that what education is now? a tool to make money? lots of people from different religions speak Irish, what they have in common is Irish heritage regardless of the cliched ff,gaa,rc theory.

AngryBollix

deise go deo wrote: »

Actually it has been shown that learning a second language can be an effective way of improving a child's understanding of their first.

If you only know one language, you have absoutly no perspective on it, you have nothing to compare it to.

Learning a second language at an early age...

• Has a positive effect on intellectual growth.
• Enriches and enhances a child's mental development.
• Leaves students with more flexibility in thinking, greater sensitivity to language, and a better ear for listening.
• Improves a child's understanding of his/her native language.
• Gives a child the ability to communicate with people s/he would otherwise not have the chance to know.
• Opens the door to other cultures and helps a child understand and appreciate people from other countries.
• Gives a student a head start in language requirements for college.
• Increases job opportunities in many careers where knowing another language is a real asset.

http://www.actfl.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3651

That second language doesnt have to be irish though does it? To improve the understanding of ones own native language, shouldnt you be able to speak ones native language to begin with. The majority of irish people have very little or no working knowledge of irish.

Doesnt the english language afford the opportunity to get to know other cultures? Irish doesnt and never will.

Do learning other subjects at an early age enhance ones intellectual growth other than learning a second language?

Mathematics for example is unparalleled in its complexity, depth and range. Its scope of potential applications is almost limitless. A true global language.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and the learning of irish isnt the only way to develop a childs learning capacity. It has its merits but there are plenty of other subjects and languages out there that are more meaningful, relevant and useful.

AngryBollix

pragmatic1 wrote: »

No. But the shortsighted attitude of many Irish people is one of the main reasons we're in this mess.

Its fair to say its more complicated than a simple case of shortsightedness

pragmatic1

AngryBollix wrote: »

Its fair to say its more complicated than a simple case of shortsightedness

Thats why I used the phrae "one of the main reasons". But I actually think it is the main reason why we're so far behind our neighbours.

AngryBollix

billybudd wrote: »

Too much money wasted on an array of things in this country, i dont think our heritage should be thrown away cheapily regardless of whether the majority bother to learn it or not, i would feel very sad if Irish was eradicated from our country.

Irish isnt a part of our heritage.

Its a means of communication that the majority of our population no longer have any knowledge of. This isnt heritage

The King of Moo

AngryBollix wrote: »

That second language doesnt have to be irish though does it? To improve the understanding of ones own native language, shouldnt you be able to speak ones native language to begin with. The majority of irish people have very little or no working knowledge of irish.

Doesnt the english language afford the opportunity to get to know other cultures? Irish doesnt and never will.

Do learning other subjects at an early age enhance ones intellectual growth other than learning a second language?

Mathematics for example is unparalleled in its complexity, depth and range. Its scope of potential applications is almost limitless. A true global language.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and the learning of irish isnt the only way to develop a childs learning capacity. It has its merits but there are plenty of other subjects and languages out there that are more meaningful, relevant and useful.

Learning a second language helps one gain a much better knowledge of their own language though, which is something other subjects don't do.

While we could choose another language instead of Irish as our second language, which would we choose? It'd be a bit of a hassle to allow a range of languages to be offered, and Irish seems a logical choice as it's highly visible everywhere and some students will already have some knowledge of it.
It just needs to be taught to a higher standard and truly taught as a second language should be in order for students to feel the benefit of it in terms of their English and whatever other language they learn in secondary school.

AngryBollix

billybudd wrote: »

It is regardless of creed or anything else the official language of this state, why would we not have to learm it? because it serves no use as a money maker? is that what education is now? a tool to make money? lots of people from different religions speak Irish, what they have in common is Irish heritage regardless of the cliched ff,gaa,rc theory.

The irish language is no longer part of our heritage. Its an outmoded means of communication that the majority of the irish population no longer speak or understand. To even suggest that the irish has any great degree of cultural significance anymore is preposterous.