Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

angry kitten

Looking at the teachers protest on the news this evening got me thinking about the teaching of Irish in schools. Generations of us went through daily Irish lessons in both primary and secondary school and while I can pronounce the names on road and housing estate signs etc, I couldn't tell you what they mean.

My point is that leaving patriotism out of the equation, would the money not be better spent retaining teachers that are actually teaching something that will be of practical use to children in their future lives. Instead of cutting remedial teachers and special needs and guidance counselors etc could the government just not take a realistic approach to education in modern day Ireland.

Sindri

No Ms/Mr angry kitten. That would be a revolutionary idea and you would be tried for treason and a general lack of hostility and resentment towards the British.

blatantrereg

Yes.
Also we should ditch the silly made up sports and get back to cricket

Galia

Irish should be done away with.
Totally useless unless the could actually teach a student the language at a young age.
And at that the Irish language would have to be revived from the dead which is not going to happen.
Having it as a subject is pointless you are only confusing people by learning them words and simple phrases without going the whole hog .

deise go deo

No, we should not make Irish optional, we should take it be the scruff of the neck and start teaching it properly.

The King of Moo

I think it should be optional, at least at secondary level, but that it also should be taught at a much higher level.

The Irish I learned in school was incredibly simplistic and of almost no use to me if I were to speak to a native speaker (and I was very good at Irish in school). The Leaving Cert exam is also far too easy, I guess to counteract the unpopularity of the subject and artificially inflate the numbers of people who can speak fluently.

I do think that all secondary-school students should have to learn at least one other language apart from English though, if only to improve our own awareness of English and as mental exercise.

im invisible

anseo,

i mean, sha

Seomra Mushie

Optional, fo sho.

Had I had the chance in school, I would have dropped it like a scorching spud.

The King of Moo wrote: »

The Leaving Cert exam is also far too easy

It is?

Doc Ruby

Look out, here they come, arr yis raight thar nai hai.

recylingbin

west brits shouldn't have to do it. It's unnecessary for working in daddy's estate agents. So is ethics, maths and, alot of the time, geography, so leave these out too.
Irish people should have to do it.

lividduck

Its a dead language which no place on the curriculum as a compulsory subject.
kids would be far better learing a modern european language.
I activley encourage my own kids to spend as little time as possible on it and devote their efforts to Spanish and French.

KeithAFC

sher55 wrote: »

Irish should be done away with.
Totally useless unless the could actually teach a student the language at a young age.
And at that the Irish language would have to be revived from the dead which is not going to happen.
Having it as a subject is pointless you are only confusing people by learning them words and simple phrases without going the whole hog .

It's a good political tool though. Most likely why it is kept alive up here by some. Although saying that it is a nice language but the problem is the people who advertise it and try to shove it down peoples throats.

xsiborg

*itches to play spelling nazi on the OP*, must resist!

no, i dont think irish should be made an optional subject. i think they are throwing a ridiculous amount of money at propping up an old curriculum alright, but it's the curriculum that should be overhauled and modernised and more european languages taught at primary school level.

if it's taught right, children can soak up vast amounts of information as long as they are able to get excited about it and feel passionate enough about it to want to learn more about it and even go outside the curriculum to expand their knowledge.

Wibbs

KeithAFC wrote: »

Although saying that it is a nice language but the problem is the people who advertise it and try to shove it down peoples throats.

This is a lot of it alright. Being compulsory has hardly worked in it's favour. Quite the opposite one could argue. Hell forget optional, let's ban it, being the contrary lot we are we'd be up to 90% fluency by christmas.

PhlegmyMoses

lividduck wrote: »

Its a dead language which no place on the curriculum as a compulsory subject.
kids would be far better learing a modern european language.
I activley encourage my own kids to spend as little time as possible on it and devote their efforts to Spanish and French.

And they'll be as rubbish at Spanish and French as they would be Irish, unless they have a natural aptitude for the language. The way we teach languages here, Irish or whatever else, will see to that. What makes people think that swapping in a European language would make any difference? We can't teach them properly and we as a nation aren't particularly good at languages because there is no need economically or culturally for us to have anything other than English.

The King of Moo

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Optional, fo sho.

Had I had the chance in school, I would have dropped it like a scorching spud.



It is?

For me it was, and I didn't find the other exams so easy!

In school, I felt I had a more objective view of Irish. There were so many people who were getting A's in Honours in all other subjects, yet struggling with Pass Irish. I couldn't understand that, because they'd been learning it since they were 4, saw it all around them (especially in Galway where I was) and the actual level of the language being taught was quite low, compared to French anyway, which I was also learning.

The problem was that so many of them just hated the language and thought it was uncool, so they were set against it and never put in any effort with it.

It should also be said that quite a few Irish teachers were not great, clearly having no specialised training in teaching a language, and teaching Irish as though the students should already know it, not explaining things that needed to be explained (though I had a great teacher for the Leaving).

I didn't love or hate the language, so I didn't have the prejudice, and when I came to the Leaving, the exam seemed much easier relative to the other exams. Things may have changed (that was 12 years ago) but if they have, I'm willing to bet the exam's even easier.

Wattle

Two things they tried to force on me in school: Religion and Irish. I havent got the slightest interest in either now. Forcing things on kids just doesn't work. They arent completely stupid.

I always thought that it was outrageous that you needed Irish to get into certain university's. Irish should be optional same as French, Spanish or Chinese.

Namlub

recylingbin wrote: »

west brits shouldn't have to do it. It's unnecessary for working in daddy's estate agents. So is ethics, maths and, alot of the time, geography, so leave these out too.
Irish people should have to do it.

Well that's everything I hate about these threads covered in one post.

Scanlas The 2nd

If we taught it the way lingual hone teaches you languages we would only have to do it for a year or so and we'd be fluent.

Eathrin

Absolutely not, the language is doomed unless we continue to teach it in our schools. What needs to be done is to teach the language better, 14 years is a ridiculous amount of time to be learning a language and not have fluency.

If Irish was optional I may not have the fluency I currently have, I only came to appreciate the language in 5th year, I really didn't care for it much before then.
Even more remarkably the head of Colaiste na bhFiann hated irish whilst she was studying it in school, only going to the gaeltacht as a teenager several times did she come to finally enjoy the language.

Given the option, the number of speakers in this country will inevitably decline.

angry kitten

I can remember the days I sat listening to a teacher of near retirement age, drone on and on about Peig Sayers. I think the way that language is taught is a big factor.

Given the pressure that families are under and the expense of books etc keeping it as a compulsory subject seems like an exercise in futility.

Conor108

Can open. Worms everywhere.

lividduck

Eathrin wrote: »

Absolutely not, the language is doomed unless we continue to teach it in our schools. What needs to be done is to teach the language better, 14 years is a ridiculous amount of time to be learning a language and not have fluency.

If Irish was optional I may not have the fluency I currently have, I only came to appreciate the language in 5th year, I really didn't care for it much before then.
Even more remarkably the head of Colaiste na bhFiann hated irish whilst she was studying it in school, only going to the gaeltacht as a teenager several times did she come to finally enjoy the language.

Given the option, the number of speakers in this country will inevitably decline.

Teaching a language spoken by a small handful of people is a waste of time. It would be more productive to teach kids how to use a ouija board ffs

wendell borton

We should learn for the welsh, from just watching rugby on S4C most welsh people interviewed seem to be able to speak welsh can't say the same for irish players interviewed on TG4.

PhlegmyMoses

angry kitten wrote: »

I can remember the days I sat listening to a teacher of near retirement age, drone on and on about Peig Sayers. I think the way that language is taught is a big factor.

Given the pressure that families are under and the expense of books etc keeping it as a compulsory subject seems like an exercise in futility.

Peig Sayers is horrific tbf. I didn't do it in school, don't think it's on the curriculum anymore, but had to read it for college and it was mind-numbing. I was born, we were poor, **** things happened and a few people died, I'm now old and poor, the end. They are nice from a cultural perspective but shouldn't be foisted on kids who are dubious about the language in the first place. Flann O'Brien's An Béal Bocht is an excellent parody of these books and is very funny. Better off teaching something like that to get kids interested.

SirDelboy18

deise go deo wrote: »

No, we should not make Irish optional, we should take it be the scruff of the neck and start teaching it properly.

And what is the point?

There is no use for it in international society. There is no use for it in Irish society. Thus there will always be a resentment in learning it.

It is sad that our language was taken from us, but that is history and we need to move on.

Fluorescence

Optional: After primary level, yes.

However, teach it properly so that by the time kids enter secondary school they already have a high level. That means teaching Irish through Irish (contact with the language is so important) and having our primary teachers learn from our Scandinavian cousins about teaching languages to young children.

Make it easy and make it fun.

Biggins

Sadly - and I say it with much regret, the 'ship has sailed' as regards the Irish language.

Our students should be learning languages that frankly will allow them and our country to compete with other nations, communicate with them, and by home effect, even get jobs here in our own country, where more jobs might be available to them through being able to speak more regular used languages.

For example, Paypal - and this is ONLY ONE example - announced this week up to 1000 jobs will be created in Ireland.
What are they looking for even now before they expand further?

Operational Account Manager with German (PayPal)
Merchant Fraud Appeals Fluent Turkish (PayPal)
Dutch Customer Solutions Agent
Customer Solution Agent Italian (PayPal)
Talent Acquisition Coordinator (PayPal)
Fluent German Fraud AgentNightshift (PayPal)
Lead Generator Spanish (PayPal)
Brand Risk Management Dutch (PayPal)
Lead Manager Risk Operations (PayPal)
Find More Jobs at Paypal in Dublin and Dundalk at
http://jobs.ebaycareers.com/ie/dublin-jobs
http://www.jobsguideireland.com/

Irish frankly is a language that now should be optional I feel.
It would be nice to know it - but lets be realistic. I can assume that many of you have tried learning something that frankly you thought would be for ever more during and afterwards, be useless.
How hard was it learning that topic? (rhetorical question!)

Maybe if one chooses Irish as an optional extra, a better system can be used points-wise to reward such learners. Its just one idea...

In the meanwhile, our students of today and tomorrow need the more used languages of modern and growing nations so that we can stay with them and communicate with them for a whole bucket of reasons.
Irish sadly in todays world is defunct as regards mass communication with the rest of the world - and thats the truth as I see it.

The King of Moo

I have to admit, I've never fully understood the "I resented it because I had it forced on me" argument.

Most of the people I've heard it from never said they resented Maths and English, or all the subjects they had to study from Junior Infants up till Junior Cert.

Of course it's a genuine grievance for some (who might point to the fact that Maths, at least, is more useful) but methinks for some others it's just an excuse because they weren't good at it in school, whether due to having bad teachers, not thinking the subject was cool (due possibly to groupthink), or simply not having a knack for languages.

PhlegmyMoses

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

And what is the point?

There is no use for it in international society. There is no use for it in Irish society. Thus there will always be a resentment in learning it.

It is sad that our language was taken from us, but that is history and we need to move on.

There are loads of jobs created for Irish speakers here. There is a huge community of people who have a vested interest in keeping Irish as a going concern. There is an argument to be made that having fluent Irish is more beneficial to an Irish person with regards to the working world than having fluent French or Spanish. Realistically, you would have to move to make a fist of utilising fluent Spanish or French and even then there's a big difference between being able to communicate and being fluent enough to work in a business.

Yakult

The problem is, outside of school you will rarely hear it spoken. So how can you progress your learning of it? How many of our parents ever talked Irish to you as a child?
I know a 4 year old from a Gaeltacht who can speak it better than most people I know including me.

Schools also don't encourage you to speak Irish outside of the classroom where it is thought.

also, I notice their is no Gaeltacht areas other than on the west coastline, says alot about Ireland and a certain influence.

meep

If we put a fraction of the energy, discussion & resources into the teaching useful subjects like maths, science & IT and maybe a modern European language, we might stand a better chance of getting ourselves out of the the mess we're in by maybe living up to our self-deluded claim that we can offer a young, well educated workforce.

Irish has some cultural significance but the insane attention & resourscing it gets is out of all proportion.

If I wanted my kids to waste they're time, energy & creativity learning Irish, I'd send them to a GaelScoil and benefit from a bonus warm fuzzy elitist feeling.

Otherwise, let me send them to a normal school, de-emphasise Irish and fill their brains with useful stuff.

PhlegmyMoses

fluorescence wrote: »

Optional: After primary level, yes.

However, teach it properly so that by the time kids enter secondary school they already have a high level. That means teaching Irish through Irish (contact with the language is so important) and having our primary teachers learn from our Scandinavian cousins about teaching languages to young children.

Make it easy and make it fun.

Scandanavian people need a second language to work. We do not. Same for the Dutch and any other country with a relatively low population who still speak their native language. If there was a necessity, we would all be better at speaking a different language. The UK is our closest comparison from a language and cultural point of view and they aren't exactly lighting up the multi-lingual world.

PhlegmyMoses

Biggins wrote: »

For example, Paypal - and this is ONLY ONE example - announced this week up to 1000 jobs will be created in Ireland.
What are they looking for even now before they expand further?

If they don't hire native speakers for CS roles then they are mental.

AngryBollix

Irish should be optional.

However, this will never happen as the irish language has been on life support in schools for years and in effect making it optional will probably kill it off for good.

Forcing a subject on students causes a lot of resentment.

Johnny Foreigner

Gaelic should be optional.
A second language should be compulsory, but of the students choice.
French or German would be of more use as a second language.
France and Germany control the EU, and they are our masters after all; now that the EU owns Ireland.

lividduck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

There are loads of jobs created for Irish speakers here. There is a huge community of people who have a vested interest in keeping Irish as a going concern. There is an argument to be made that having fluent Irish is more beneficial to an Irish person with regards to the working world than having fluent French or Spanish. Realistically, you would have to move to make a fist of utilising fluent Spanish or French and even then there's a big difference between being able to communicate and being fluent enough to work in a business.

Yes move to Paypal in Blanchardstown or Dundalk, Google in Barrow street, or Ebay in Blanchardstown, or Microsoft, or Dell......get real

The King of Moo

AngryBollix wrote: »

Irish should be optional.

However, this will never happen as the irish language has been on life support in schools for years and in effect making it optional will probably kill it off for good.

Forcing a subject on students causes a lot of resentment.

Up until Junior Cert, you're forced to do every subject you learn. Most people don't resent all of those, and most of them aren't useful in an immediate, practical sense, like a modern European language can be.

Fluorescence

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Scandanavian people need a second language to work. We do not. Same for the Dutch and any other country with a relatively low population who still speak their native language. If there was a necessity, we would all be better at speaking a different language. The UK is our closest comparison from a language and cultural point of view and they aren't exactly lighting up the multi-lingual world.

Knowledge of other languages makes it easier for you to learn more languages. Having our kids learn Irish from a young age makes it much easier to learn "useful" languages later. It also makes them more aware of language in general, which would vastly improve their levels of English.

Latin was once considered a staple, because even though it's a truly dead language, having knowledge of it strengthened the ability to absorb other languages. Irish, being quite different to English, is a great language to get the young brain fired up and ready to learn. After knowing Irish, the european languages will seem ridiculously easy as a result.

Besides which, there are jobs available for Irish speakers. Irish media is very much so alive and thriving.

PhlegmyMoses

lividduck wrote: »

Yes move to Paypal in Blanchardstown or Dundalk, Google in Barrow street, or Ebay in Blanchardstown, or Microsoft, or Dell......get real

Most of those are CS, I presume? They'll hire primarily native speakers with English as a second language if they are working in a language department. They will have primarily English roles that will primarily go to native English speakers.

AngryBollix

Irish will never be made optional. There are a whole host of reasons for this. Personally speaking I have nothing but resentment for the Irish language having gone through the irish education system and had a subject I hated shoved down my throat.

Making irish optional may actually force a better and more effective use f resources. At least people will be learning it for the correct reasons as opposed to being forced into it.

Surely a student should be encouraged to focus on the subject they enjoy and excel at rather than being told what they should learn because someone else thinks its a good idea.

Fluorescence

AngryBollix wrote: »

Surely a student should be encouraged to focus on the subject they enjoy and excel at rather than being told what they should learn because someone else thinks its a good idea.

Isn't that the whole point of the UK's education system, where they only take around 3 subjects to A level? I think that's a terrible idea. There needs to be some core subjects, and I think the leaving cert (while a deeply flawed system) is pretty damn good compared to the UK or the USA's education system.

AngryBollix

fluorescence wrote: »

Isn't that the whole point of the UK's education system, where they only take around 3 subjects to A level? I think that's a terrible idea. There needs to be some core subjects, and I think the leaving cert (while a deeply flawed system) is pretty damn good compared to the UK or the USA's education system.

Why is it a terrible idea?

biko

I'm going to have to agree with the westbrits, Irish should be optional in westbrit schools. Instead put in better accent classes.

AngryBollix

Yakult wrote: »

The problem is, outside of school you will rarely hear it spoken. So how can you progress your learning of it? How many of our parents ever talked Irish to you as a child?
I know a 4 year old from a Gaeltacht who can speak it better than most people I know including me.

Schools also don't encourage you to speak Irish outside of the classroom where it is thought.

also, I notice their is no Gaeltacht areas other than on the west coastline, says alot about Ireland and a certain influence.

That is probably a large part in why it wont be made optional at LC level. The fact its not widely spoken is bound to have a further negative impact.

To state the obvious, language is a means of communication. If a language does not need to be spoken then it wont be. If irish isnt taught in schools it wont be spoken. It will die out or there will be little pockets of the country where it will remain active

AngryBollix

biko wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with the westbrits, Irish should be optional in westbrit schools. Instead put in better accent classes.

Whats a westbrit school?

Fluorescence

AngryBollix wrote: »

Why is it a terrible idea?

Having a broad base of knowledge from lots of different areas sets you up better than early specialisation in my opinion.

I'm not a pedagogist but that's what makes sense to me.

AngryBollix

fluorescence wrote: »

Having a broad base of knowledge from lots of different areas sets you up better than early specialisation in my opinion.

I'm not a pedagogist but that's what makes sense to me.

But college students specialise. Surely one is an extension of the other. Students needs the obvious literacy skills, but these are taught at a very early age. The broad base of knowledge that you gain in school very quickly dissipates through lack of use.

That includes Irish in the majority of cases

Johnny Foreigner

AngryBollix wrote: »

Whats a westbrit school?

West Brit. Derogatory term used in Ireland to describe anyone who believes British (i.e. English) culture, goods or whatever to be invariably superior to their Irish.

lividduck

biko wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree with the westbrits, Irish should be optional in westbrit schools. Instead put in better accent classes.[/QUOT
Could you define West Brit, I'm a working stiff, grew up in a council estate, do I count as West Brit.
Or is West Brit just a broadly insulting term used by little Irelanders with a persecution complex who still long for DeValeras view of Ireland...piss poor and dominated by priests?

Irish Steve

2 Pages and no one has yet mentioned an issue that needs to be discussed in a lot more detail than has even been mentioned, and it goes to the core of the debate on languages.

Regrettably, Irish is a minority language, and there are some schools in parts of the country that are having to cope with trying to teach children from over 20 different countries in one class, and the majority of them have poor or no English either, and we are then forcing them to learn a language that they will likely never hear outside of the school. In some cases, they don't hear English at home, because they are still using their native language.

If the child is not exposed to the language at home, and in a social environment, learning it becomes more difficult.

Are we really so arrogant as to INSIST that a 4 or 5 year old child that is already isolated by it's lack of language skills now has to spend significant time for their entire school experience learning a language that they are unlikely to learn effectively, and less likely to ever need in a work or social environment. They are already having to cope with 2 languages, their native language probably used at home by their family and close friends, English, as the de facto default language of business and the majority of social environments, and Irish, which is forced upon them.

No one in their environment is likely to be using Irish, so their ability to develop their skills is non existent. What a wonderful recommendation for a forward looking modern progressive society.

This is AH, time I stopped, before someone thinks I'm not actually serious!

The reality is that this is a far bigger issue than most recognise, and it's being constantly kicked back under the carpet because there's no way that its continuance can be justified in the modern European Union that Ireland is part of.