An Open Letter to All Irish Airsofters mod warning in post 2 and 143, please read

BioHazRd · 06-01-2012 6:16pm #1

I have been asked to post the following on the IAA forum (http://www.irishairsoft.ie/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=861 ) on behalf of the signatories below. I feel its important to post it here too in case anyone misses it

An Open Letter to All Irish Airsofters

As can be seen on the IAA website, there have been no nominations for positions on the executive committee for the upcoming year. This is a serious situation for a number of reasons.

The IAA has been instrumental in protecting and developing airsoft in Ireland since its inception. They have always been there when contentious issues needed addressing in the media. They dealt with and negotiated with the Dept Of Justice regarding the amendment to the Criminal Justice act in 2009. They implemented guidelines and safety practices for sites and retailers. They dealt with countless enquiries ranging from advice on where to play to how to deal with custom or garda seizures of airsoft equipment. They advised on planning legislation for site operators. They secured recognition of airsoft as a sport in Ireland through their affiliation with the Federation of Irish Sports. In short, they have been there for you when they were needed.

Granted, they haven’t been very visible for the past two years, but we have been assured this will be addressed at the upcoming AGM. Even though there may not have been a publicly visible presence, there has always been a good working relationship between site operators / retailers and the IAA and we are aware of the huge work that was carried out in the background. We as retailers and site operators know the workload that the committee has to work under, and we are also aware that this work is carried out in their spare time, and as such, can be quite limited. The members of all past committees have stepped up to the plate because they have a passion for airsoft and a desire to see it thrive in Ireland. We would be very disappointed to see this fall by the wayside at this point in time.

As it stands, if there is no committee voted in for next years term, the IAA will be immediately wound down, and all the hard work of previous committees will be for nothing and there will be no unified voice representing airsoft in Ireland.

The IAA has always been “by airsofters, for airsoft” and we have always been happy for this to be the case as it afforded us the opportunity to get on with our businesses. This has now changed. Everyone knows we are in a different economic situation now to where we were when airsoft started in Ireland. Sites and retailers are closing for many different reasons. Some may say that this is just an equalisation of the marketplace and that we had too many sites and retailers for the size of the market here. That may well be the case, but we still feel threatened by the fact that the amendment to the CJA (2009) has not yet been fully implemented. The licensing of retailers has not happened yet. There is no unified stance on the importation of devices from a DOJ / Customs point of view. Some Garda Superintendents have embraced the site permission issue, while others have not. Others have acted unilaterally in implementing the law as they see it. We are constantly trying to run our businesses while looking over our shoulder in case something should happen to threaten our livelihood.

That is what it all boils down to. You get your RIFs and your gear from retailer “A” and then you go off and have a days skirmishing at site “B” and you have a great time knowing that what you do is not a criminal offence.
We do not feel so secure, and our livelihoods depend on what we do. We have to put food on the tables of our families aswell as those of our employees. Without the voice of the IAA representing us, we will be left out in the cold and we honestly cannot predict what will happen in the future. In a nutshell, if there were no sites or retailers, there would be no airsoft.

Currently, the IAA constitution disbars any member of the committee from having any commercial interest in airsoft. We fully understand why this was done, especially considering the debacle that UKARA turned out to be across the pond.

We now feel, however, that this needs to change. As we pointed out earlier, no airsofter has put themselves forward for election, so we are in a state of limbo. We, the Site Operators and Retailers have a vested interest in the security of airsoft in Ireland going forward. We have the passion and drive to make things happen. We have been successful in what we have done with our own businesses and we ask that consideration be given to allowing us to bring our multiple skills to the table to further secure and enhance the future of airsoft in Ireland. Through or daily dealings with Customs / Gardai / DOJ / Co Councils etc, we are probably better placed than any player to understand the issues faced by the airsoft community as a whole.

We do not want to have a second organisation as this dilutes the representative strength. The IAA has a wealth of resources available to it and it has a track record in dealing with Government bodies, Media etc. Nor do we want to have a situation that the IAA becomes a totally commercial driven entity as we do not feel this would be best for airsoft in Ireland. We just want to be allowed to play our part in securing, building and promoting the sport that everyone here loves so much. We want a voice at the table.

If the current committee can see fit to have an amendment to the constitution tabled at the AGM that would allow the participation of commercial bodies at executive level, we can assure you we will leave no stone unturned to make this work. We just want to have a secure framework in which to carry out our businesses and by extension, a secure network of Sites and Retailers to serve the needs of the airsoft players around the country under the banner of the IAA.

The only alternative to our proposal that we can see is that the association be wound down at the AGM, and that is something we would rather not contemplate.

Proposed constitutional changes:

Amend Article 5 section 10 as follows:

Persons who have a commercial interest in the sport of airsoft, or who have a connection to a
commercial interest in the sport of airsoft shall be ineligible for nomination to the position of Chairperson.
Nominated candidates shall, at the time of nomination, make a declaration that they have no
such commercial interests. Serving committee members shall be barred from developing such commercial interests unless they resign their position

Richard Seery..........Hobby Airsoft..........Affiliate
Derek Talbot...........Main Irish Airsoft.....Affiliate
Damian Dobbyn........Red Barn Airsoft......Non-Affiliate
Brendan O Neill........Fingal Airsoft..........Non-Affiliate
Lee Yang................SG Airsoft .............Affiliate
Brian Regan............Airsoft Reloaded......Affiliate
Stephen Hickey........Airsoft Eire............Affiliate
Alan Behan.............Strikearms............Affiliate
Kevin O Toole..........Tallaght CQB..........Non-Affiliate
David Robinson........Rathbeggan Airsoft..Affiliate
Peter Sharpe...........Go Tactical............Affiliate
Keith Richardson......Tigerland..............Affiliate
Tony Roche.............Mid West Airsoft.....Non-Affiliate
Joe Turner..............Asylum Airsoft........Non-Affiliate
Tony McCann...........The Airsoft Centre...Non-Affiliate

thermo · 06-01-2012 6:22pm

this thread is staying open for now for discussion of the above in a civil manner. flaming, trolling, abuse, mud-slinging or derailment will not be permitted and will result in a ban.

this will be the only warning.

horgan_p · 06-01-2012 6:51pm

for the benefit of those not on the IAA forum , I'll post the question I asked over there

1 ) whats changed in the stance of the IAA (from an idealistic perspective) to allow commercial interests to get involved with the running of the association ?
2) what checks and balances are going to be put in place to stop this descending into UKARA ver.2.0 ??

and a few more I've thought of :

3) with the incoming importation ban is it not more important than ever to have an independent body sticking up for the interests of the players ?

4) why can the commercial interests not go and setup their own organization purely for commercial interests ?

Thanks for your time,

Paul Horgan

Stercus Accidit · 06-01-2012 8:26pm

I for one didn't know it was election/nomination time again, maybe people will see this thread and think of people to nominate and get involved in the voting and AGM.
http://www.irishairsoft.ie/forum/viewforum.php?f=20 - AGM 2011 forum on IAA website

cheezy · 06-01-2012 8:37pm

sounds good guys keep up the good work

gerrowadat · 06-01-2012 9:45pm

horgan_p wrote: »

for the benefit of those not on the IAA forum , I'll post the question I asked over there

1 ) whats changed in the stance of the IAA (from an idealistic perspective) to allow commercial interests to get involved with the running of the association ?

It's become apparent that there aren't enough players interested and willing/capable to serve on the committee. I would think that this above all other reasons would be enough for this change. As I see it it's a choice between this and nothing.

2) what checks and balances are going to be put in place to stop this descending into UKARA ver.2.0 ??

I am also interested in the answer to this.

hrta · 06-01-2012 10:30pm

horgan_p wrote: »

for the benefit of those not on the IAA forum , I'll post the question I asked over there

1 ) whats changed in the stance of the IAA (from an idealistic perspective) to allow commercial interests to get involved with the running of the association ?
2) what checks and balances are going to be put in place to stop this descending into UKARA ver.2.0 ??

and a few more I've thought of :

3) with the incoming importation ban is it not more important than ever to have an independent body sticking up for the interests of the players ?

4) why can the commercial interests not go and setup their own organization purely for commercial interests ?

Thanks for your time,

Paul Horgan

Just to add a few questions to Paul's post,

1) How will people's personal data, which is held by the IAA, be used by the commercial interested party's.

2) Whats to stop the commercial interested party's, from blocking new business from trying to start up, or from monopolizing the market, that's here already.

3) And how will the commercial interested party's, look after the player, or buyer, act of conflict, even if the act of conflict, is with a member of the commercial interested party's.

Paul Carey.

gerrowadat · 06-01-2012 10:38pm

hrta wrote: »

Just to add a few questions to Paul's post,

1) How will people's personal data, which is held by the IAA, be used by the commercial interested party's.

Can't speak to the other ones, but the IAA member data is covered under data protection legislation, it's illegal to use it for any purposes outside IAA official business.

2) Whats to stop the commercial interested party's, from blocking new business from trying to start up, or from monopolizing the market, that's here already.

How would they do this?

3) And how will the commercial interested party's, look after the player, or buyer, act of conflict, even if the act of conflict, is with a member of the commercial interested party's.

How would the IAA currently deal with a grievance a player had with a current committee member?

hrta · 06-01-2012 10:43pm

gerrowadat wrote: »

Can't speak to the other ones, but the IAA member data is covered under data protection legislation, it's illegal to use it for any purposes outside IAA official business.

How would they do this?

How would the IAA currently deal with a grievance a player had with a current committee member?

My questions were to the named commercial interested party's on the list above, thank's.

Paul.

horgan_p · 06-01-2012 11:07pm

Would the non affiliate sites / shops be willing to become affiliated ?
Why haven't they been bothered to do so until now ?

Smells a bit like a couple of sites / shops get grief from the gardai / planning authorities and now the rest are looking to circle the wagons to protect themselves.Same old ,same old - when the sky isn't falling down its "screw the IAA" - when the sky is falling down it's "ZOMG , wherez the IAA"
This looks like commercial interests looking after themselves - IAA and players , plinkers and collectors bedamned.

gerrowadat · 06-01-2012 11:11pm

hrta wrote: »

My questions were to the named commercial interested party's on the list above, thank's.

I don't think they necessarily have put themselves forward for committee, they just think this is a good idea.

gerrowadat · 06-01-2012 11:18pm

horgan_p wrote: »

Would the non affiliate sites / shops be willing to become affiliated ?
Why haven't they been bothered to do so until now ?

Smells a bit like a couple of sites / shops get grief from the gardai / planning authorities and now the rest are looking to circle the wagons to protect themselves.Same old ,same old - when the sky isn't falling down its "screw the IAA" - when the sky is falling down it's "ZOMG , wherez the IAA"
This looks like commercial interests looking after themselves - IAA and players , plinkers and collectors bedamned.

Would you not have tried something similar back when you ran a shop?

Airsoft in Ireland needs representation. As a sport. It's become clear that not enough players are interested or inclined to put themselves forward (and all this 'not trusting the IAA' is balls. It's a cop-out, universally used by people who haven't informed themselves or just like to mouth off).

Personally as a former IAA committee member, and the person who actually introduced the part in the constitution about specifically excluding commercial entities, I agree that it's unfortunate this has to be considered, but it has to be considered due to lack of interest from players.

Switch the situation round for a second -- airsoft sites and retailers have gone for many years trusting players to do the right thing around their industry without (for the most part) insisting on getting involved. I think if there are enough people associated with commercial entities with the time and expertise to run the IAA, that I as a player think we at least owe them the chance to work for Airsoft as well.

se conman · 06-01-2012 11:27pm

I am not commercially connected or at present a member of the IAA but I am an airsofter and can see several reasons why a constitution change would be good.
1 Ease of sign-up to IAA (at shops or sites)
2 They* don't have to explain to their boss why they are spending time during
the working day dealing with the business of the IAA.
3 They* have constant contact with players/collectors.
4 They* have on-going contact with Garda/Councils.
5 If this does not happen I think there will be split or second entity set up.

The only anti change issue I would be concerned with is "who will guard the guardians ?"

They* Retailers/site owners.

horgan_p · 06-01-2012 11:31pm

gerrowadat wrote: »

Would you not have tried something similar back when you ran a shop?

You know full well I did dave , and where did it end ? what I wanted was a representative (singular) of commercial interests (sites and shops) on the committee of the IAA - non executive and in an advisory role.

gerrowadat wrote: »

Airsoft in Ireland needs representation. As a sport. It's become clear that not enough players are interested or inclined to put themselves forward (and all this 'not trusting the IAA' is balls. It's a cop-out, universally used by people who haven't informed themselves or just like to mouth off).

The players need representation - the plinkers and collectors also. The previous committee's line was that the commercial interests can more or less look after themselves. as regards people not being interested - I remember putting myself up for a nomination last year before what happened happened.A situation we are all still waiting for a resolution of.

gerrowadat wrote: »

Personally as a former IAA committee member, and the person who actually introduced the part in the constitution about specifically excluding commercial entities, I agree that it's unfortunate this has to be considered, but it has to be considered due to lack of interest from players.

Switch the situation round for a second -- airsoft sites and retailers have gone for many years trusting players to do the right thing around their industry without (for the most part) insisting on getting involved. I think if there are enough people associated with commercial entities with the time and expertise to run the IAA, that I as a player think we at least owe them the chance to work for Airsoft as well.

To be honest Dave , I think you got it right years ago. In fact I think that without that committee we may not be where we are now (having a sport at all) - but I think this is a gross misstep.

gerrowadat · 06-01-2012 11:32pm

se conman wrote: »

The only anti change issue I would be concerned with is "who will guard the guardians ?"

I think it's a very valid worry. However, I've yet to see any argument or concern that couldn't be also levelled at a player.

horgan_p · 06-01-2012 11:44pm

horgan_p wrote: »

Smells a bit like a couple of sites / shops get grief from the gardai / planning authorities and now the rest are looking to circle the wagons to protect themselves.Same old ,same old - when the sky isn't falling down its "screw the IAA" - when the sky is falling down it's "ZOMG , wherez the IAA"
This looks like commercial interests looking after themselves - IAA and players , plinkers and collectors bedamned.

By the way , the above in bold is directed at players as much as anyone else.

TheDoc · 06-01-2012 11:49pm

It be interested to see what actions the committee would take up next year.

Realisticly if the above amendment goes in palce, the IAA committee will essentially just be retailers and site owners.

I'd be interested to keep tabs on where effort and focus was being placed.

It would be actual the ideal set-up for what I've wanted for years, streamlined gaming rule sets across various sites and process through retailers

- Basic clarity on fundamentals like bang kills etc
- Streamlined chronographing processes
- Streamlined retail chronographing and certification provided
- Agreeable warranty and etiquette when dealing with repairs/returns

And there is a few others.

However if its a year spent promoting airsoft, well, that would be epic fail. I dont feel the game needs promotion or advertisement, it requires consolidation and resolution on outstanding issues present the last few years.

But then again as has been said above, I'm one of those that doesnt really care anymore. If it gets to a point where decisions being taken starts affecting my gaming or reducing my enjoyment, I'll resign up to have my voice heard.

But its only fair, that as a non member, that I keep to myself and just hope for the best.

Puding · 06-01-2012 11:51pm

I think the unspoken concern amonge players is that what is bets for commercial interests is not necessarily best for areas of the airsoft community

at the moment we have hardly any pressure on retailers or sites to reach a set standard, what would be the intensive for commercial interest to support changes which would put pressure on them to change precise or make improvements

a common theme in Irish airsoft community has been an inability to make the difficult discussions that are unpopular but right for the development of the hobby in the long run, is these hard choices becomes increasingly less likely with these changes

se conman · 06-01-2012 11:55pm

To be honest Doc , the IAA has always said that they are for non-members as-well as members so your opinion is as valid as anybody's. If I could sign up at a shop/site , i would do so in the morning , I know this is down to lazyness but I think there are lots more like me.

se conman · 07-01-2012 12:05am

I think this boils down to one question , what is the lesser of two evils* , an IAA with retailers/site operators on the committee or no IAA ?
This may be over simplifying things but it is the base question.

evil* (I use this term loosely)

Puding · 07-01-2012 12:05am

It would be actual the ideal set-up for what I've wanted for years, streamlined gaming rule sets across various sites and process through retailers

- Basic clarity on fundamentals like bang kills etc
- Streamlined chronographing processes
- Streamlined retail chronographing and certification provided
- Agreeable warranty and etiquette when dealing with repairs/returns

why? other than areas relatively to law and safety a body can only make recommendation and especially in-regard to commercial areas can not get involved due to competition

- site rules, again other than safety and law it is up the sites to sort that out, you can recommend best practice but that is all, i do not see airsoft as a sport but a hobby so uniform rules are not that important to be and when i've seen the 'sport' aspect some into the community where uniform rules would be of use tbh it has always gone tits up
- Streamlined chronographs processes, agree
- Streamlined retail chronographing and certification provided, well you have to address a lot of issue hear from inconsistent practices to 'certificates' begin issued, actually love to see how that one works out
- Agreeable warranty and etiquette when dealing with repairs/returns, this is where you start getting issue, as players then we want to promote one thing where as retail will want something else, also its a competition issue with retails

AS i say there are massive issue that i can, take downgrades for example. Ideally you would want a best practices to promote correct downgrading by the player community but as a retailer my needs are slightly different, i can not have this body recommended that drilling for example is a bad practice and does not recommend retailers to use it.

The reality is that most players do not care about the IAA and anyone who does is smart enough to stay clear at the moment due to all the **** in recent yeas. In desperation we have turned to the retailers who we hope will how and interest and invest time, but they they will invest time tbh more than likely to get something from it, with an aim of increasing business. People may not want to admit it but that is the reality of the situation.

hrta · 07-01-2012 12:26am

The way i see it, all of the above posters have asked there questions to the people named below, would this not be the same as asking any one putting there nominations for committee members, and this thread has been up now for 6 hours, and i have not seen any of the named post back to any of the questions.

Richard Seery..........Hobby Airsoft..........Affiliate
Derek Talbot...........Main Irish Airsoft.....Affiliate
Damian Dobbyn........Red Barn Airsoft......Non-Affiliate
Brendan O Neill........Fingal Airsoft..........Non-Affiliate
Lee Yang................SG Airsoft .............Affiliate
Brian Regan............Airsoft Reloaded......Affiliate
Stephen Hickey........Airsoft Eire............Affiliate
Alan Behan.............Strikearms............Affiliate
Kevin O Toole..........Tallaght CQB..........Non-Affiliate
David Robinson........Rathbeggan Airsoft..Affiliate
Peter Sharpe...........Go Tactical............Affiliate
Keith Richardson......Tigerland..............Affiliate
Tony Roche.............Mid West Airsoft.....Non-Affiliate
Joe Turner..............Asylum Airsoft........Non-Affiliate
Tony McCann...........The Airsoft Centre...Non-Affiliate

Airsoft Reloded · 07-01-2012 1:11am

horgan_p wrote: »

1 ) whats changed in the stance of the IAA (from an idealistic perspective) to allow commercial interests to get involved with the running of the association ?

The fact that no one has the time to run a governing body, work, look after their family and have a life while on the other hand there are a lot of people who have all of the above and the experience to do it well.

horgan_p wrote: »

2) what checks and balances are going to be put in place to stop this descending into UKARA ver.2.0 ??

The fact that everything has to be voted on, as always you get what you vote for.

horgan_p wrote: »

3) with the incoming importation ban is it not more important than ever to have an independent body sticking up for the interests of the players ?

What would you like to see happen regarding this, I don't mean to be smart but don't just pose questions, suggest a solution if you have an idea.

horgan_p wrote: »

4) why can the commercial interests not go and setup their own organization purely for commercial interests ?

We can, very easily and quickly but that will dilute the power of both the IAA and that body which would render them both weak and it would render the IAA pointless because a "commercial lobby group" could bring a lot more clout than a body ran by part timers and players who sometimes support it. This would result no doubt in UKARA .2 and no one wants that.

Puding wrote: »

at the moment we have hardly any pressure on retailers or sites to reach a set standard, what would be the intensive for commercial interest to support changes which would put pressure on them to change precise or make improvements

To put it simply the customer will (as they do now and always will, as with all business), what a lot of players have to accept is that just because something is done that you don’t like or a place is run in a way you don’t like (or that’s what you’ve heard and chose to accept) surely some people like it or they wouldn’t go there and the place would be closed already.

My own personal opinion is that we can secure the sport, now granted it is mostly secure but not enough for a lot of commercial interests to invest more than they already have. I've had several discussions with others involved in the commercial end of things and most feel the same in this regard.

Another plus is that we can start working together for better events e.t.c. As Doc said we can come up with basic standards and rather than hinder new comers to the commercial end of things the committee would be a great source of knowledge and help.

I don't think there is anyone “running to the IAA” when things are bad, I think this is more an acceptance that the body can’t be ran on good intentions or on a few people’s spare time. It would be run by people whose livelihood depended on it and by people who work in the airsoft field full time.

Sites are going to look after shops and players because they need them, retailers are going to look after collectors, plinkers, skirmishers and sites because they need them and the body is going to look after everyone because it needs them all. Without players there are no shops or sites but without shops and sites there is no airsoft at all so we HAVE to look after each other’s interest. After years of working side by side (sometimes at odds) it’s about time we all worked together and did it right for us all.

Everyone is going to meet (for the first time in years) and everything will be worked out, make up your mind after everyone knows exactly what we all want and whats planned. Until then have an open mind. I’d like to point out that I speak for myself and in no way represent anyone else’s view.

cheezy · 07-01-2012 1:11am

whats with all the negativity lads thease people are trying to make the sport/hobby call it what u want stronger so that it can grow more

this benafits the people the sites and the shops put it this way the more shops that open the more people buy stuff the more sites that open the more people play it all works to everyones advantage

1 united force is stronger than 3 forces with people who dnt no where there head is at

cobra 08 · 07-01-2012 2:53am

hrta wrote: »

2) Whats to stop the commercial interested party's, from blocking new business from trying to start up, or from monopolizing the market, that's here already.

3) And how will the commercial interested party's, look after the player, or buyer, act of conflict, even if the act of conflict, is with a member of the commercial interested party's.

Paul Carey.

Could it not be amended so that people with comercial interset's can only occupy 50% of the commitee? Allowing players to fill the rest. This way we get the experience of the retailers/site-owners without the worries that they're just going too suit themselves.

se conman wrote: »

If I could sign up at a shop/site , i would do so in the morning , I know this is down to lazyness but I think there are lots more like me.

I've tried too join online but nothing ever came of it and I was down 10euro too, so yes this would be handy.

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

After years of working side by side (sometimes at odds) it’s about time we all worked together and did it right for us all.

Would be nice for a change;)

Mister TETRA · 07-01-2012 4:33am

What are the options here people. Is there anyone willing to put their hand up and say "Ill do this job". The way it has been explained to me is that if this doesn't happen the IAA "MAY" be no more.

Mister TETRA · 07-01-2012 4:36am

horgan_p wrote: »

horgan_p wrote: »

Smells a bit like a couple of sites / shops get grief from the gardai / planning authorities and now the rest are looking to circle the wagons to protect themselves.Same old ,same old - when the sky isn't falling down its "screw the IAA" - when the sky is falling down it's "ZOMG , wherez the IAA"
This looks like commercial interests looking after themselves - IAA and players , plinkers and collectors bedamned.

By the way , the above in bold is directed at players as much as anyone else.

As for this comment, I believe it was the IAA that have proposed this to the retailers and site owners. No-one went running to the IAA.

OddysAirsoft · 07-01-2012 8:43am

''Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? ''

Could it not be amended so that people with comercial interset's can only occupy 50% of the commitee?

Cobra08/Robbie - you cannot fill a committee with 50% of nothing - NO PLAYERS wanted to be on the committee - it was too much a poison chalice after the last 2 years. And lets face it - some of the 'players' that ran it previously didn't exactly do a stand up job!

Fresh blood, new start and maybe,just maybe there will be a future for the IAA.

Instead of people slating the new, before it has even started, I would love to see people give it a chance - throw the cards in the air and see what way they land before passing judgement - because what ever way it goes from here - it can not be any worse than what it already has been! Am I being a bit Utopian- probably!

The way i see it, all of the above posters have asked there questions to the people named below, would this not be the same as asking any one putting there nominations for committee members, and this thread has been up now for 6 hours, and i have not seen any of the named post back to any of the questions.

If the new committee has ANY sense, apart from this statement, they should conduct all of their affairs on their own dedicated site and avoid Boards at all cost.

horgan_p · 07-01-2012 9:24am

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

. Snip

So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

horgan_p · 07-01-2012 9:28am

Mister TETRA wrote: »

As for this comment, I believe it was the IAA that have proposed this to the retailers and site owners. No-one went running to the IAA.

Actually that's a damn fine question. Who approached who about this ? We have a letter from retailers /sites , what do the current Iaa committee make of it ?

J.D.R · 07-01-2012 9:40am

horgan_p wrote: »

So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

While I don't know if they did join recently or not, how would that be a bad thing?

As has been said by others, the IAA is not what it used to be 2/3 years ago. To me personally, there does not seem to be any advantage to being affiliated with an organisation that the very people it represents don't want to be a part of.

Now, however, when a solution is posed to fix/bolster the IAA, becoming affiliated is suddenly a bad thing? Seems a strange point of view to be honest

horgan_p · 07-01-2012 9:50am

J.D.R wrote: »

horgan_p wrote: »

So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

While I don't know if they did join recently or not, how would that be a bad thing?

As has been said by others, the IAA is not what it used to be 2/3 years ago. To me personally, there does not seem to be any advantage to being affiliated with an organisation that the very people it represents don't want to be a part of.

Now, however, when a solution is posed to fix/bolster the IAA, becoming affiliated is suddenly a bad thing? Seems a strange point of view to be honest

I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying to be involved you'd HAVE to be affiliated.

dinko4gr · 07-01-2012 10:07am

se conman wrote: »

The only anti change issue I would be concerned with is "who will guard the guardians ?"

Who can assure me ( i wont pretend to talk for anyone else's part ) that allowing this change will not end up with the below :

Some kind of ridiculous cert'ing on AEG (not exclusively) costing 50 euro and can only be obtained by retailers, that will effectively kill second hand trading along with the importation ban?

Monopoly/cartel type sites that membership is forced down our throats and fees skyrocketing?

I can think of several other "worst-case" scenarios but i think you all understand what im talking about. I have nothing against retailers or site owners as they are -simply put- people trying to run their business's to turn around profit and live out of it. History has proven though that we ARE human, meaning give someone/a group with a vested interested the power to call the shots he/she/they WILL abuse it one way or the other to their benefit.

On the other hand is there really an alternative? Idealists running the IAA and working towards that utopia where all is good and fair and pink etc (without everyone on the planet hooked on some kind of psychotropic substance)? Im not a pessimist im just pragmatist enough to realize that good intentions and the will to help "pro bono publico" is a fast burning fuel with low if not rare supply.

My suggestion: Give them (retailers/site owners) a fair chance to prove they can maintain a balance between moving the sport/hobby/obsession we call airsoft forward and (harshly put)filing their pockets. To be honest anyone who helps having something done properly/ progress should be compensated one way or the other. But before handing over the baton make sure that safeguards are in place to avoid abuse as much humanly possible.

Once more for the records im not taking a shot at the retailer/site owners. Some of them in my humble opinion do it properly and those are the ones on the receiving end of my hard earned money.

se conman · 07-01-2012 10:09am

The bottom line is this proposal can only be decided by airsofters at the IAA AGM and I would urge everyone to join and have their votes counted. While the IAA is there/here for members and non-members alike , if you don't join , you can't vote , so while anyone (myself included) can debate the merits of the changes here , the important thing is to be at the AGM and vote.

Puding · 07-01-2012 10:28am

My own personal opinion is that we can secure the sport, now granted it is mostly secure but not enough for a lot of commercial interests to invest more than they already have. I've had several discussions with others involved in the commercial end of things and most feel the same in this regard.

so what makes it more secure? lets look at the current position should we

- IAA now iasra in all but name if this goes ahead
- possible commercial interest running IAA ( lets me realist hear, no one wanted to do it, so existing members have gone to retailers rather than fold, so commercial will be running the organization)
- personal importation ban enforced

very few commercial interested wanted nothing to do with the IAA up until this point, why the c change? there was nothing stopping you guys have more involvement and interest in the past

once again where are the check and balances, will a retailer vote for something that will be negative for their business but positive for the community?

Another plus is that we can start working together for better events e.t.c. As Doc said we can come up with basic standards and rather than hinder new comers to the commercial end of things the committee would be a great source of knowledge and help.

what about the players that see that as a bad direct for airsoft?

Sites are going to look after shops and players because they need them, retailers are going to look after collectors, plinkers, skirmishers and sites because they need them and the body is going to look after everyone because it needs them all. Without players there are no shops or sites but without shops and sites there is no airsoft at all so we HAVE to look after each other’s interest. After years of working side by side (sometimes at odds) it’s about time we all worked together and did it right for us all.

That was my main concern, what is good for business is not necessarily what is good for the hobby in the long run, hobbyairsoft have said it already most of their business is more transient players or just people that have nothing to do with the 'hobby' of airsoft and has nothing to do with the long term development of the hobby just sales they do not need 'players' as by their own words there doing fine without 'players' and that is not their main revenue source.

The harsh reality is that their are to many sites and shops for Ireland, their are a lot of fly by night sites and retailers that have less that healthy practices, commercial interests can not address this issue with falling foul of competition rules and being accused of all nasty stuff.

se conman · 07-01-2012 10:36am

This is not a cut at anybody just a question but ,
What happens if there is NO IAA ?

horgan_p · 07-01-2012 10:41am

My apologies to Airsoft reloaded for my post above , they are affiliated already.

gerrowadat · 07-01-2012 11:09am

horgan_p wrote: »

So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

Airsoft reloaded have been an IAA affiliate since 2009.

horgan_p · 07-01-2012 11:14am

gerrowadat wrote: »

horgan_p wrote: »

So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

Airsoft reloaded have been an IAA affiliate since 2009.

I know. I pointed it out and corrected myself in the post above yours

gerrowadat · 07-01-2012 11:16am

dinko4gr wrote: »

Who can assure me ( i wont pretend to talk for anyone else's part ) that allowing this change will not end up with the below :

Some kind of ridiculous cert'ing on AEG (not exclusively) costing 50 euro and can only be obtained by retailers, that will effectively kill second hand trading along with the importation ban?

Monopoly/cartel type sites that membership is forced down our throats and fees skyrocketing?

Both of these things are illegal. If an IAA committee with commercial interests onit started doing this, there are enough concerned players with the requisite know-how anfd motivation to have the competition authority step in and kick bollocks through necks.

My suggestion: Give them (retailers/site owners) a fair chance to prove they can maintain a balance between moving the sport/hobby/obsession we call airsoft forward and (harshly put)filing their pockets. To be honest anyone who helps having something done properly/ progress should be compensated one way or the other. But before handing over the baton make sure that safeguards are in place to avoid abuse as much humanly possible.

Once more for the records im not taking a shot at the retailer/site owners. Some of them in my humble opinion do it properly and those are the ones on the receiving end of my hard earned money.

This. I absolutely agree. The initial proposal is there, to remove the clause about commercial interests. The job is by no means done, checks and balances must be in there (for example, making sure there's a player as the chair, or suchlike.

There are a significant number of people out there who are capable and wiling to serve on a *staffed* IAA committee. Not muddle by with 2 other guys with no time or resources.

The AGM just got interesting IMHO. I'd like to see a proposal ASAP about how these checks and balances will be put in. What likely to happen is the AGM in a few weeks will be this manedment, any other amendments for checks and balances, and then an EGM a few weeks after that to give time for people to be nominated if they weren't eligible before.

Tommyboy71 · 07-01-2012 11:21am

There is one big question here and it is "what if it becomes Ukara 2.0" . There is a very simple answer. The retailers and sites could wait until the IAA folds and set up their own organisation where the ordinary Joe Soap does not get a look in. That will prevent players,collectors or plinkers from having a voice.

They haven't. They are willing to step up and put themselves forward to keep the IAA going. The players still have a part to play and this is where the checks and balances comes in to play. The chairmans position is non commercial. This is something that the commercial side looked for. They are not looking to take over and run it with all commercial bodies on the committe. Players still have the option to run the association and hold any of the positions. If all of the positions get filled by players then there will be no issue from the commercial side. If there are any dodgy dealings going on, if the members or indeed any of the comittie don't like what's going on they can look for an EGM to be called. Players wont have that if the commercial side set up their own association.

Puding · 07-01-2012 11:36am

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

There is one big question here and it is "what if it becomes Ukara 2.0" . There is a very simple answer. The retailers and sites could wait until the IAA folds and set up their own organisation where the ordinary Joe Soap does not get a look in. That will prevent players,collectors or plinkers from having a voice.

They haven't. They are willing to step up and put themselves forward to keep the IAA going. The players still have a part to play and this is where the checks and balances comes in to play. The chairmans position is non commercial. This is something that the commercial side looked for. They are not looking to take over and run it with all commercial bodies on the committe. Players still have the option to run the association and hold any of the positions. If all of the positions get filled by players then there will be no issue from the commercial side. If there are any dodgy dealings going on, if the members or indeed any of the comittie don't like what's going on they can look for an EGM to be called. Players wont have that if the commercial side set up their own association.

there have been attempts to moves in the past to set up commercial focused groups that have been stopped by the committee and know the iaa is turning into what many argued against in the past

Both of these things are illegal. If an IAA committee with commercial interests onit started doing this, there are enough concerned players with the requisite know-how anfd motivation to have the competition authority step in and kick bollocks through necks.

what you mean the same group of concerned dedicated players who are standing for the iaa at the moment and being an active part.......

The AGM just got interesting IMHO

your choice of words is interesting, there are a few people that see the politics of airsoft as a game and all the drama a bit of fun, if you 'interested; know because of the drama your interested fo the wrong reason

Puding · 07-01-2012 12:01pm

TBH the most interesting thing for me is the influx of support know directing towards this thread ( even more telling it is direct hear rather than the iaa forum ) from retailers on facebook, retailers that mentioned nothing about the AGM but know it is support iaa, join up and support the changes, before this there had been no mention or even anti iaa

why this change? why no support for the organization before this point? the points about growing the community and insuring its safety could have been done before this point?

all the points that retailers what to accomplish can all be done without being on the committee

Tommyboy71 · 07-01-2012 12:04pm

Puding wrote: »

there have been attempts to moves in the past to set up commercial focused groups that have been stopped by the committee and know the iaa is turning into what many argued against in the past

In the past there were enough people going for positions on the committee. It goes back to what I said earlier. If the players don't step up the commercial interests could form their own association with no players involved in decision making or ensuring that the player base is represented.

They have not done that. They are actively trying to get the association back on its feet. If it works then great. If not then we,as players, have a vote and we can demand changes. This might take a while to get right.

Puding · 07-01-2012 12:10pm

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

In the past there were enough people going for positions on the committee. It goes back to what I said earlier. If the players don't step up the commercial interests could form their own association with no players involved in decision making or ensuring that the player base is represented.

They have not done that. They are actively trying to get the association back on its feet. If it works then great. If not then we,as players, have a vote and we can demand changes. This might take a while to get right.

but from everything i've seen this is iasra in all but name. the same structure that people argued very passionately about

so why did these same retailers not actively support the IAA before this point? some have been member other have not, but i've seen only one actively support players involvement in the IAA and promoting players to get involved, i point you to my previous post above for more on this

They have not done that. They are actively trying to get the association back on its feet. If it works then great. If not then we,as players, have a vote and we can demand changes. This might take a while to get right.

.

again the same as dave hear, what you mean the really active community supporting the IAA..........ow right that does not exist, players do not care about the IAA in reality, the vast majority of players are loyal more to their local retailer than the community as a whole

fayer · 07-01-2012 12:10pm

The IAA is in this situation right now because before the last AGM people on the sideline scare mongered and tried to call off an AGM unilaterally outside of their powers. The same people that provided that incorrect advice, to some members of the pervious committee, who have never sat on the committee are again lobbing in extreme opinions from the sidelines making the situation a hell of allot more dramatic than it actually is.

Fact - Cartel operations are illegal and covered under the competition act
Fact - Anyone who's suspects any cartel like activity can report it, you dont need a lawyer, or court, the competition authority can take care of it
Fact - the IAA will close without a committee

Where do we go....

My Opinion - Its clear that the IAA needs professionals to run and represent our sport. Sites and shops are being closed, we are under threat, we need the IAA. I supported the non comercial amendment to the constitution when it was proposed, now the law (CJA 2009) is drafted and enacted I am no longer worried of an overly comercial tainted direction.

UKARA requires the VCRA (UK Violent Crime reduction act), our legal framework dose not support this model. Also the DoJ totally rejected this model at one of the IAA's meetings with them (I was personally at that meeting) So I am not worried about this element. Under the competition act it is highly unlikely any such operating model would be legal. Many layers of protection from this idea in my opinion.

Il end this rant on 2 points

If you have no constructive suggestions to add please shut up and stop scare mongering.

Do not now stand up and volunteer for a position now as a reaction to this move,the IAA need people that actually want to be on the committee genuine reasons to help the sport, not to simply keep out someone eles.

fayer · 07-01-2012 12:14pm

Puding wrote: »

but from everything i've seen this is iasra in all but name. the same structure that people argued very passionately about

so why did these same retailers not actively support the IAA before this point? some have been member other have not, but i've seen only one actively support players involvement in the IAA and promoting players to get involved, i point you to my previous post above for more on this

IASRA was totally different
No consideration (payment) for signup
People must be member to own kit
No non comercial members on the committee

The IAA framework dose not change, only 1 word in the constitution will be changed.

Commercials sitting on the IAA is better than no IAA or a new totally comercial body setup without the IAA framework and protections because the IAA has folded.

Puding · 07-01-2012 12:31pm

fayer wrote: »

IASRA was totally different
No consideration (payment) for signup
People must be member to own kit
No non comercial members on the committee

that is specific policies, the IAA will be dominated by retail by the simple fact that no one else is up for places, player or non commercial as chairmen with retailers as committee with players tagged on in the back ground, sounds like what is about to happen to the iaa to me

situation for you, community wants pressure on sites to say for example enforce child protection ( we are a sport after all apparently ) so ages have to be split, why would sites sitting on the committee vote for this?

The IAA framework dose not change, only 1 word in the constitution will be changed.

the one that had actually had the most impact and the direction of the organization

Commercials sitting on the IAA is better than no IAA or a new totally comercial body setup without the IAA framework and protections because the IAA has folded.

why? i remember a lot of arguments that this should be the case rather than having players and retail mixed

Puding · 07-01-2012 12:34pm

fayer wrote: »

The IAA is in this situation right now because before the last AGM people on the sideline scare mongered and tried to call off an AGM unilaterally outside of their powers. The same people that provided that incorrect advice, to some members of the pervious committee, who have never sat on the committee are again lobbing in extreme opinions from the sidelines making the situation a hell of allot more dramatic than it actually is.

Fact - Cartel operations are illegal and covered under the competition act
Fact - Anyone who's suspects any cartel like activity can report it, you dont need a lawyer, or court, the competition authority can take care of it
Fact - the IAA will close without a committee

Where do we go....

My Opinion - Its clear that the IAA needs professionals to run and represent our sport. Sites and shops are being closed, we are under threat, we need the IAA. I supported the non comercial amendment to the constitution when it was proposed, now the law (CJA 2009) is drafted and enacted I am no longer worried of an overly comercial tainted direction.

UKARA requires the VCRA (UK Violent Crime reduction act), our legal framework dose not support this model. Also the DoJ totally rejected this model at one of the IAA's meetings with them (I was personally at that meeting) So I am not worried about this element. Under the competition act it is highly unlikely any such operating model would be legal. Many layers of protection from this idea in my opinion.

Il end this rant on 2 points

If you have no constructive suggestions to add please shut up and stop scare mongering.

Do not now stand up and volunteer for a position now as a reaction to this move,the IAA need people that actually want to be on the committee genuine reasons to help the sport, not to simply keep out someone eles.

why is it when you have made these exact same arrangements in the past it is for the good of the community but know that you have changed your opinion, if others carry on with this point of view then it is now scary mongering?

why compare to the uk all the time, that is scare mongering in itself, we justify choices and the direction of change because 'things could be worse'

horgan_p · 07-01-2012 12:37pm

fayer wrote: »

The IAA is in this situation right now because before the last AGM people on the sideline scare mongered and tried to call off an AGM unilaterally outside of their powers. The same people that provided that incorrect advice, to some members of the pervious committee, who have never sat on the committee are again lobbing in extreme opinions from the sidelines making the situation a hell of allot more dramatic than it actually is.

Steve ,
If you want to ask me a question or say something to me then use my name , don't allude to me.I provided the advice to the previous committee because of defamatory comments and accusations which flew around the IAA forum last year.Accusations which where never proven or even proven to have been investigated.Now if you want to open this can of worms , get the mods permission and we'll discuss it.

fayer wrote: »

Fact - Cartel operations are illegal and covered under the competition act
Fact - Anyone who's suspects any cartel like activity can report it, you dont need a lawyer, or court, the competition authority can take care of it

I'll take your learned advice on this one.

fayer wrote: »

Fact - the IAA will close without a committee

Something we agree on.

fayer wrote: »

Where do we go....

My Opinion - Its clear that the IAA needs professionals to run and represent our sport. Sites and shops are being closed, we are under threat, we need the IAA. I supported the non comercial amendment to the constitution when it was proposed, now the law (CJA 2009) is drafted and enacted I am no longer worried of an overly comercial tainted direction.

UKARA requires the VCRA (UK Violent Crime reduction act), our legal framework dose not support this model. Also the DoJ totally rejected this model at one of the IAA's meetings with them (I was personally at that meeting) So I am not worried about this element. Under the competition act it is highly unlikely any such operating model would be legal. Many layers of protection from this idea in my opinion.

Il end this rant on 2 points

If you have no constructive suggestions to add please shut up and stop scare mongering.

Do not now stand up and volunteer for a position now as a reaction to this move,the IAA need people that actually want to be on the committee genuine reasons to help the sport, not to simply keep out someone eles.

What about constructive questions ? or should we not ask questions either. No one's accusing anyone of anything. People are asking how this would work , and what checks and balances would be in place to stop it going wrong.

In my experience , you can always rely on a businessman to be interested in their business. If it comes down to players or business which one do you think they'd look after ? If they're any good at running a business they'll look after the business. It's what I would do.

Airsoft Reloded · 07-01-2012 1:07pm

Lads just to be clear on a few subjects here.

Iasra was formed and we joined, we then moved to the IAA because we thought they respresented the airsoft and we helped fcilitate a sit down between the two organisations. We listened to forward thinking people like Fayer and Dave and how they and Derek addressed a few outstanding issues.

My point is that the IAA didn't "stop" Iasra, they wanted it to happen. Noone every thought a "chamber of commerce" type thing would be a bad idea and the only difference is that those people will all be working together in one organisation with a common goal.

If there is no IAA none of you havea voice, none of us have a voice and what then? How do we deal with the doj, protect our sport if there is noone to do it. Don't get me wrong here, I have been critical of the IAA in the past and for good reason most of the time but I have to admit that you just don't really consider the fact that they are normal people with millions of other things to do.

I completely understand all your points @Puding but your an intelligent guy so why not suggest options for the problems you've pointed out, this isn't a government, we don't need an oppisition. If everyone makes suggestions we can act on them and if we don't you'll know and can point it out or have your concern raised at the agm.

I hear what Oddy says about staying off boards but I like the fact that you can be held to account by the community and address what issues they have publically.

An Open Letter to All Irish Airsofters *mod warning in post 2 and 143, please read*

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An Open Letter to All Irish Airsofters mod warning in post 2 and 143, please read