An Open Letter to All Irish Airsofters *mod warning in post 2 and 143, please read*

gerrowadat

se conman wrote: »

3. Proposals and candidate nominations which it is desired to put before a General Meeting shall be
received in writing by the Executive Secretary at least 40 days before the date of the meeting.
That states a "General meeting" not an AGM.
I am not a legal mind but IMHO this would still leave nominations possible on the day of the AGM. Maybe I am wrong or maybe it is a loop hole. ??????

AGM stands for Annual General Meeting

se conman

LOL , yea I know that but if we have people that are now willing and capable of committee positions is there an argument that as the constitution ALSO states "Nomination of candidates will be made at the AGM" that it is possible.

gerrowadat

se conman wrote: »

LOL , yea I know that but if we have people that are now willing and capable of committee positions is there an argument that as the constitution ALSO states "Nomination of candidates will be made at the AGM" that it is possible.

Afraid not, the two parts say that if a nomination is recieved by the secretary, it also has to be nominated at the AGM.

If this amendment goes through, what I'm guessing is that there'll be another AGM in 40 or so days after that to elect a committee. If not, well, it's been fun having representation that isn't Derek Talbot having the poor people in the DoJ on speed dial.

Tommyboy71

At the AGM, people can be put forward for any of the positions but it will require an EGM to vote those people in.

Lemming

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

At the AGM, people can be put forward for any of the positions but it will require an EGM to vote those people in.

Would that not make more sense Tommy, than people banging on and making noise about how the only option is their way [allow commercial vested interests] or the high way [wind down]?

Every option should be explored before committing to a wind-down of the organisation. And yes, every option includes the aforementioned proposal, which is why we're all here discussing it. And again for the record I still believe it is a bad idea made with the best of intentions.

gerrowadat

Lemming wrote: »

Would that not make more sense Tommy, than people banging on and making noise about how the only option is their way [allow commercial vested interests] or the high way [wind down]?

Every option should be explored before committing to a wind-down of the organisation. And yes, every option includes the aforementioned proposal, which is why we're all here discussing it. And again for the record I still believe it is a bad idea made with the best of intentions.

That's a bit of a climbdown from 'unethical'.

I'm not convinced that people are going to sign up for nominations now, given that they've had plenty of time to do so. I'd love to be surprised, though.

Tommyboy71

Lemming wrote: »

Would that not make more sense Tommy, than people banging on and making noise about how the only option is their way [allow commercial vested interests] or the high way [wind down]?

Every option should be explored before committing to a wind-down of the organisation. And yes, every option includes the aforementioned proposal, which is why we're all here discussing it. And again for the record I still believe it is a bad idea mae with the best of intentions.

As you said. It is a proposal. Nothing more. The membership could vote against it at the AGM.

But what will happen then is the commercial sector will,more than likely, set up their own organization and take away the vote of ordinary players.This is all people are discussing. No one is forcing the idea down anyone throats they are merely pointing out the benefits of something they believe in.

drpepper

Hi all,

I've just raised my head to see what was new coming up to the AGM and what mad ideas people had proposed. However i am saddened to see that the OP is where we currently stand, the closure of the IAA.

As a previously active player and committee member i wish to make 2 points here in my splash and dash comments, however having re-read this it could hardly be considered splash and dash, in fact it’s far too long for the internet and won’t be read.

1. To All Players:
Shame on you.
Clearly you either have no idea what the IAA has done for you in the past, which is ignorance.
Or you don't give a ****, which is arrogance.

I was luckily involved in this IAA from the grass roots ideas to the 2nd election of committee right through to last years AGM. I could use the line that "i've done my time" and i would be no better than the rest of you, simply taking a pass on a job that needs doing. At present the IAA is on course to disband. All the work put into it gone (so what, no extra work right?), and then when the newspapers get bored and begin the attack on your sport what then huh? You'll be red tipped and see through gunned. You'll have these "weapons", as the media love to call them, taken off you.

2. To players who were outspoken against the IAA:
Where the hell are you now huh? Given up your keyboard warrior life and love of debate and question for what? Why don't you stand up and create the committee you had in mind? You may have moved on in life but i hope that if the IAA is to disband and you look back on this then you may think twice about your actions in the past and see that your damages when combined with a flagging community and player base with diminishing returns on good will have set all of this in motion. Shame on you too.

So I'm clearly rather peppery on this topic and i could continue my harsh criticism to those above but it wouldn't serve any good which i do realise, however I want my disappointment to read loud and clear.

As to the proposal at present, having been on a player filled committee and witnessed the undermining of the IAA by those commercial and consumer, i cannot honestly say that i think this is a good or bad idea. Many would ask that the commercial interests setup a commercial body seperate, but having been there on the ground level trying to form this years ago i can see why it will never happen so perhaps a closer integration of commercial and consumer needs is a good thing, but I don’t know.

Lastly, i personally believe that i could man up and take back the position of chair purely to prevent my hard work from disappearing but to what end? Would we see the return of the criticism that the IAA has suffered or would it somehow magically transform to a land of plenty and growth? You do the math.

Far too many people in this world are selfish, too many look for an opportunity to gain and miss what matters. Representing the sport you love should be an honor and a privilege, not a burden. And here we are, years of hard work to get the IAA reputable, years of opposition to every step the IAA took, and we will have gained nothing if this IAA closes and this sport will die.

Regards,
Conor Scolard
Fan of Airsoft and Pew-Pew.

(scaremongering is used for effect, batteries not included)

Murphino

Two perspectives folks…

The sport needs representation. I took up Airsoft last year and have developed a keen passion for the sport. I am firmly on the side of the player but I should come clean by mentioning that I plan to become commercially involved in the not too distant future. I guess at this point in time that puts me firmly on the fence in respect of the issue of commercial involvement in the IAA. When it comes to the main issue though which in my opinion is about the overall representation of the sport in Ireland, I am sure of one thing, we must have a voice. I’ll explain…

From my player’s perspective, I thank the IAA and indeed all those who have been involved and worked tirelessly to ensure Airsoft is a viable sport for all involved. The sport is legal, has some great sites with good potential and has a defined structure in which to operate. Certain sites though are operated with health and safety concerns and are poorly marketed. The lack of awareness of Airsoft in Ireland is also something to behold and all of the above needs immediate addressing especially if the corporate market is to be successfully attracted which ultimately could become a staple diet of sites country wide.

From a commercial perspective it is comforting to know that the sport is represented and legal and also importantly, that there is a structure in which to establish a business in what is a growing sport. As a prospective business owner (apologies but I am not yet in a position to identify the business or location) I am a little wary of the challenges that are posed to the sport as identified in the ‘Open Letter’. Particularly of concern to me, are the legislative and planning issues and the inconsistency of Garda Superintendent approval. This should not be an issue for a legal sport unless of course there are legitimate reasons for sites not being granted approval or being shut down. In this case, these reasons should be communicated, forewarned is forearmed as they say.

To the Airsoft community (community being the operative word) we all have a genuine interest in making sure the sport is safe, interesting and exciting, well promoted and properly represented. Yes, I understand the obvious pitfalls of having those with a commercial interest involved in lobbying or advocacy but one thing is for sure with no representation i.e. the IAA being wound down…we would be heading for very turbulent times which could potentially be the death knell of the sport in Ireland. What message would it send to law enforcers or government if the sports main representative body ceased to be, for one it might erroneously indicate that the sport is perhaps in decline, this couldn’t be further from the truth.

We need a clear voice whether you’re a retailer, a site, the IAA or (most importantly) a player. Surely if players have not come to the fore to stand for election then we need to move to plan B, but before that happens I ask one question….has this issue or indeed the AGM been properly communicated to all concerned because if it hasn’t how do we expect there to be interest? This forum will certainly help in that regard.

Attend the AGM later this month in the Red Cow in the interests of keeping this sport alive!

Lemming

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

But what will happen then is the commercial sector will,more than likely, set up their own organization and take away the vote of ordinary players.

If the commercial interests wish to do that, then that is their own decision. I would however point out that first & foremost, if people believe that commercial interests would a) do that and b) do so to vest themselves more power vs. the community well then why are people considering allowing them carry out 'b' in the first place by ushering them in the door. It's not a very good argument to make in favour of the proposal.

If people fear commercial interests will rest power away from players, that's what the IAA is there for, and also, commercial interests would risk alienating the very hand that feeds if they were so inclined to silence their market. That is not a rational business move to make, any which way it gets cut.

The only reason that commercial interests would split is because they feel they are not being given a voice, which is the exact flip-side of the same coin regards players. If commercial interests are allowed non-executive representative seats on the committee than why would they then feel the need to split. If they are offered a non-executive seat (or seats if we wish to distinguish between retailer & site) that either rotated with the committee or every six months (to avoid accusation or infighting) then I don't see their need to up sticks and re-invent the wheel, establish themselves as a port of call, etc. etc. I should also point out that it took the IAA the better part of two years in order to become known & established, with almost entire community behind them & backing them. I would hazard that whatever commercial body was established would take much longer given a) the possible fallout with the players and b) the media & political tempo has slowed (at least as far as perception goes), so their name wouldn't come up as much in conversation.

This is all people are discussing. No one is forcing the idea down anyone throats they are merely pointing out the benefits of something they believe in.

No problems with that Tommy and I'll agree with the sentiment. I'm not seeing any positive arguments from allowing commercial interests sit on the
committee other than drama about how it'll all fold otherwise.

Have any mail-shots been sent out to the community regarding the AGM and need for people to step forward? Have any mail-shots been sent out to the community regarding the serious situation the association now faces? Have any mail-shots been sent out to the community concerning this proposal? Or are the committee simply hoping that people are checking the fairly inactive website? The only reason I found out about this was due to this thread, and I'm sure many others are in the same boat too.

The committee has made - as far as I can see, and I fully accept I may be wrong on this - little or no effort in trying to alert the association in any way shape or form.

So how can people now be clamouring for "our way or the highway" if this is the first real attempt at bringing the situation to the attention of the membership and greater community?


Edit: regards DrPepper's comments on stepping up to the plate, I have in the past put my name forward given I have over a decade's worth of committee experience and a couple of years on top of that in a political lobbying capacity. The only reason I have not done so (and did indeed at the time withdraw) was because it became obvious that I was leaving the country on a mid/long term basis. As a result I did not then (and do not now) consider myself to be an appropriate candidate as I am not in much of a position to travel back and forth nor am I present day in/day out within Ireland. Otherwise it would be a very different matter.

BioHazRd

Lemming wrote: »

First of all, I am of the opinion that it was highly inappropriate behaviour from Richard Smith to approach retailers/sites with this idea despite his claims of not being a member of the IAA committee any more, for all of six months. He has inside and in-depth knowledge of the IAA committee that is recent & current, and as such whilst his claim may be technically true, it is dishonest and tbh, I find it unethical.

Pro tip: check your facts before accusing someone of being dishonest and unethical. Retractions arent worth diddly, and I find your accusations personally hurtful and insulting.

I didn't come up with this off the top of my head. It came about after a couple of conversations I had had with site owners and retailers who were showing an interest in current developments. We were disappointed to see that no nominations had been put forward for the committee and wondered what THEY could do to keep the IAA alive. I hashed out a few ideas with them, and the result is the letter. At no time did I use any information that wasn't publically available. At no time was I dishonest or misleading with anyone. The only thing I used, was my good relationship that I happen to have with these people to act as a focal point for their concerns.

I have no problem holding myself up for criticism for doing this, but please do not think there were any ulterior motives on my part other than the survival of the IAA. My stance on the overall issue of commercial involvement with the IAA is well documented and I still stand over my actions.
I would not stand for a commercially driven organisation, but in the current circumstance we find ourselves in, allowing the commercial interests to have an involvement in the IAA at an executive level is the oly way forward. A separate commercial organisation would be impractical and divisive, and there are perfectly good structures in the IAA to ensure that fair representation for the player is at the forefront. I firmly believe that the only way to progress is by being inclusive and I make no apologies for acting the way that I did

hrta wrote: »

If you were no longer on the IAA committee, who gave you the power to take this on board, And why were only a select few only retailers and site owners approached, should not every retailer and site owner, have been approached.

Nobody gave me the "power", nor did I need any authorisation - I did it as an individual airsofter and member of the IAA. Regarding the select few, I contacted some people, and other people contacted others. I did not decide on who to contact and nobody was specifically excluded. We simply did not have the time to contact everyone, so of course some people would be left out. That being said, not everyone who was contacted supported the letter so it represents a sample of commercial interests, and never claimed to represent everyone.

Lemming wrote: »

Have any mail-shots been sent out to the community regarding the AGM and need for people to step forward?

My understanding is that when a post is made to the front page of the IAA website, it is also emailed out to all members. I know I get those emails. I will check into this and see if that is factually correct.
To date there has been no mail shot about this proposal, as the committee had no involvement in it and only learnt of it 1 hour before it was posted.

Lemming wrote: »

The committee has made - as far as I can see, and I fully accept I may be wrong on this - little or no effort in trying to alert the association in any way shape or form.

There you go again, forming your conclusion without giving people the chance to come back with the facts. The AGM notice was posted on the IAA website (and as such, afaik, was also emailed out to all members). It was also posted up here on boards

Miscreant

BioHazRd wrote: »

My understanding is that when a post is made to the front page of the IAA website, it is also emailed out to all members. I know I get those emails. I will check into this and see if that is factually correct.

The AGM notice was posted on the IAA website (and as such, afaik, was also emailed out to all members). It was also posted up here on boards

I'm not going to get into what has transpired over the last number of pages or offer an opinion on the open letter however I was not informed by mail (snail or electronic) that there is an AGM scheduled and I would imagine a good few were not either.
Perhaps this could be one of the reasons why no-one put themselves forward and not general apathy about the whole thing?
I would imagine that not all members of the IAA are glued to this forum or the official IAA one to see what is going on.

*DOBBY*

As someone who is listed on the letter, I'd like to express my thoughts.
I have always considered myself a player first and foremost and a site operator second to that. I have previously said in conversations to various airsofters/IAA members and IAA committee members that it was a shame that people with comercial interests could not be on the committee , as I would have happily thrown my name in the hat long ago.
Now in relation to the content of this letter, Im a bit surprised at the few voices in opposition to it. You would think that it has already been approved and on its way to be inacted... it is meerly a suggestion, and that is the way I look at it.
Here's how I see it, no one had been nominated which leaves the IAA in a dilema. With the change of the constitution to allow comercial interests sit on the committee, we(comercial interests) then could help make up the numbers for it. I would love to see 3 non comercial and 2 comercial making up the committee. I feel the info and knowledge we could bring to the table is invaluable to help out in the running of the IAA.

I feel strongly enough that I think we should have a representitive body that the DOJ and media/public and players can contact for any info, be it diffusing any issues or just for general PR and information. The fact that the IAA is already known to most of the above is why I think we should try and keep its continuity. I'm not sure why it is being viewed as a comercial takeover by some as it clearly says in the letter that we do not wish to see the IAA become a totally driven comercial entity, and I stand over that.
I think most of the oppositional comments are viewing this as business Vs. airsofter, but nearly all the people named on the letter are Players. Thats right players , not just businesses. We started playing and were driven by passion of the sport. So I think this should be taken into consideration when making some of the earlier comments.

To be honest I would of been happy for the IAA to have been flooded with nominations for the committee, and for it to carry on as it was intended. But this is not the case and its very easy for a handful of eloquent posters to object to this on this thread for one reason or another, but the simple fact doesn't change that no one bothered their ar@*e to run for election. My inital knee jerk reaction upon reading all of the posts was , ah fu*k that, let them at it, but you know what , I do give a sh*t about airsoft in this country and will try anything to help further it along its course.

Damian.

maddog

hrta wrote:

<snip>

Bren from Fingal Airsoft here.... so long since I logged on I forgot my password for my Fingal account...lol

<snip>

The way some of the posts read in this thread you'd swear this is some sort of coup by the commercial side of Airsoft in this Country, when in fact all that Richard did was see a big problem down the road and try and save something that was about to fall flat on it's face!

If by the very fact that his actions make some players stand up and put themselves forward for the committee then he has done what he has set out to do and that is save it from falling apart! Anyone that knows Richard Smith would easily stand behind him because they know that first and foremost he IS an Airsoft player (And a very genuine gentleman with a passion for our sport) think about this for a second... if he didn't bother his butt what would have happened?

I can't think of anyone who could have approached the vast majority of retailers and sites and got them to say yes to what is asked of them, that in my opinion shows how much people in the industry trust Richard.

If you don't want to see this go ahead then get to the meeting and vote:cool: trust me when I say that it would be a lot easier for someone running a business in airsoft to concentrate on their business and families than to do that plus sit on the I.A.A. committee as anyone who has done it will tell you it takes up a lot of your time.

I'll leave you to slug away at each other and watch as this thread goes down the road of so many threads in here.


Bren:)
Fingal Airsoft

jayod30

After sitting here and reading through all this one thing has stuck out to me most, all the arguing and whining. Honestly, is it any wonder that no one wants to run for positions on the executive committee, its a poison chalice. For a community that's supposed to be so together, from anyone looking in from the outside I'd say its never looked so far apart. And to be fair, although I wouldn't be for a committee made up of retailers, so far, it's them that have been the most positive with their views. An acceptable compromise in my view would be what Damien said, 3 non commercial and 2 commercial making up the committee, providing that can be done of course. But under no circumstances should the IAA as a body be allowed to be wound down, it would send out the wrong message to councilors, politicians and government alike.

@Conor Scolard I have always been well aware of what the IAA has done for me. The first thing I did when I joined this sport was to sign up to the IAA and continue to do so as some small way of showing my support, not much I know, but my job and family leave me with very little me time as I'm sure goes for alot of other airsofters. Believe me, nothing would give me greater pleasure than having the time to devote to airsoft, something I live and breath and have done so for the last 3/4 years. I'm sure I'm not alone here.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth, look forward to seeing you all on the 28th:)

SeanLEFT

For someone realitively new to the sport can someone fill in the background details with regard IARSA and UKARA and everything

Faolchu

Tommyboy71 wrote: »

At the AGM, people can be put forward for any of the positions but it will require an EGM to vote those people in.

can they not be simply co-opted for 12 months until the Next AGM similar to what happens under Company law or is it written into the constitutions of the IAA that they MUST be proposed prior to and AGM and voted at AGM.


also as mentioned by someone, can it not be changed that the majority of the committee be made up of players. so a 3-2 split and also that a commercial interest can not hold the position of chairperson, this giving the commercial interest the deciding vote in the event of a tie

I'm not a member of the IAA so have no idea what the constitution says. I have considered joining the IAA in the past but with all the back biting i see here i cant see any real point and i think that is the root of the current dilemma. Why should anyone be bothered stepping to the plate? yes ok there's the whole the IAA will cease to exist, and we wont have any representation with the Doj etc and these points i think are critical to the continuance of Airsoft in Ireland. But apart from that, why should anyone bother because it seems to me from reading this thread and others that any committee member just gets grief. I dont know too much about what happened in the past, but a line in the sand needs to be drawn so the sport can move on, otherwise even if the IAA continues you'll end up with folks like me who wont sign up simply because there seems to be too much in fighting and not much (visible) progression. i say the above as a non IAA member so have no clue about what the IAA has achieved in the last 12-18 months,

Bernie Mac

I honestly think the only way the IAA can move forward and upward is if a new committee of members come in, aware of the horrific and childish past this sport has had between members of the community, but were not involved in it and have no ties with anybody involved (there by influencing their opinion one way or an other).

This way we can actually have a committee of people who are looking to help protect and improve the sport and the standards that we expect to see in both our retailers and sites. For example concerning sites these include things like chronoing procedure and equipment, marshaling standards, distinguished safe zones and game zones, etc.

I don't care if they are retailers or players so long as they have the good of the sport at the fore.

Because as far as I can see if any new players comes along and reads all the **** that has gone on in this thread and been brought back up as it does every time it must reflected incredibly bad on the community and the people involved.

*DOBBY*

@Jayod30, Don't be misled to think that there is so much bickering and as much arguments in the airsoft community, by seeing what you read here on Boards, as really it does not represent the community as a whole nor does it give a balanced view of same. There was a time when it was a great source of info and felt like a real community but IMO now it just serves for a slanging match between the few who care to use it as such.

I feel and see the airsoft community completely different to what is portrayed on some of these 'hotly discussed' threads, and it is (I'm happy to say) a very very friendly place to be.

jayod30

gerrowadat wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. A lot of people (like myself) hang around boards just to keep a tide on the nonsense that gets posted here. Sadly, there's a steadily sized band of sleeve-chewers that like to post misinformation -- it does a disservice to new players, and without a voice of reason, a deluded fantasy has a nasty habit of becoming fact.

Also I do like the lols.

*DOBBY* wrote: »

@Jayod30, Don't be misled to think that there is so much bickering and as much arguments in the airsoft community, by seeing what you read here on Boards, as really it does not represent the community as a whole nor does it give a balanced view of same. There was a time when it was a great source of info and felt like a real community but IMO now it just serves for a slanging match between the few who care to use it as such.

I feel and see the airsoft community completely different to what is portrayed on some of these 'hotly discussed' threads, and it is (I'm happy to say) a very very friendly place to be.

I agree with you both and I absolutely know how great an airsoft community it is, I have met nothing but the soundest of people since I began and have made some great friends in the process. My point though is how this thread is perceived to people new to the sport, seems alot of personal agendas and opening of old wounds been thrown around, stuff that alot of people don't need or want to see. This thread needs to stay as what it was put up for, saving the IAA, if it can't then it should be locked and leave it to the AGM.:)

Lemming

SeanLEFT wrote: »

For someone realitively new to the sport can someone fill in the background details with regard IARSA and UKARA and everything

There's far too much for details. In short; IASRA was a direct competitor to the IAA with commercial interests, organised by and run by a commercial interest, with some fairly alarming proposals to foster onto the community. They were opposed, eventually disbanded, and joined into the IAA to work with rather than against.

UKARA is the UK airsoft retailers association (also represents sites afaik) and is a red-herring in this particular argument other than to point abroad in comparing what has transpired between players, retailers, and government agencies.

As for BioHazrd's reply to my post, thank you for replying. I need to clarify a couple of points that I believe you have misinterpreted, and disagree with you further on others (such is life) but I'll get back on that since I'm in work right now.

gerrowadat

jayod30 wrote: »

I agree with you both and I absolutely know how great an airsoft community it is, I have met nothing but the soundest of people since I began and have made some great friends in the process. My point though is how this thread is perceived to people new to the sport, seems alot of personal agendas and opening of old wounds been thrown around, stuff that alot of people don't need or want to see. This thread needs to stay as what it was put up for, saving the IAA, if it can't then it should be locked and leave it to the AGM.:)

Couldn't agree more. What's ironic is that a lot of the people causing a big noise over this aren't even members.

Faolchu

jayod30 wrote: »

I agree with you both and I absolutely know how great an airsoft community it is, I have met nothing but the soundest of people since I began and have made some great friends in the process. My point though is how this thread is perceived to people new to the sport, .:)

have to agree with this. I started out about a year ago and had i read teh threads on boards about the IAA i would probably have reconsidered. instead i just turned up to my local site and met some very welcoming people. I've been to 4 sites this year (i dont get out much) and in each case all the oldtimers have invariable made me welcome.

BUT for someone starting out that hasnt visited a site and see the community for what it really is, one of friendly like minded nutjobs then the back and forth in this and other threads of the past can be offputting and ultimatly damaging to the community.

have retailers anything to add to Airsoft, IMO yes they do, have site operators, again yes. should they be allowed become members of the IAA and even committee members, IMO yes they should but the control of the sport should be held by the players as it is for the players. I cant see why tehy cant be allowed on but restrict their capacity ie no chairperson and a minority holding ie 2 out fo 5 positions max. their experiences with the Gardai, customs, and players would be invaluable to the sport.

I also think it could make registration with the IAA easier, affiliated stores could have application forms etc, same with sites, though the player would send off the application form not the site. also it could help set a mimimum standard for sites I know one site i've been on there was no visiable first aid box (not saying there wasnt one). another site had a "marshal" that IMO were not old enough to shave, this may have been a once off but that one point meant i never returned to that particular site. by setting minimum standards then players would know what to expect from an affiliated site. it could also help sites when it comes to issue swith teh Gardai and approval letters, because teh IA Awould already know what a site should have and can infom owners who could then get all their ducks in a row before applying to teh super and get their approval quicker

yes they could set up their own association, but wouldnt that just dilute things? isnt one strong united voice better than two smaller ones?

BioHazRd

Lemming wrote: »

As for BioHazrd's reply to my post, thank you for replying. I need to clarify a couple of points that I believe you have misinterpreted, and disagree with you further on others (such is life) but I'll get back on that since I'm in work right now.

Disagree as you see fit, I'm all for open debate on any points.

TheDoc

On a serious note.

It's clearly only a suggestion and at this point, really the only one I'm seeing. And fair play to Ritchie for being pro-active. It's alot more work I'd go and do, and he deserves alot of credit for it. Truely giving a **** about what happens.

So at this point I can see the following options/outcomes/scenarios

- Ammendment to consitution, we get retailers/sites on the commitee, IAA survives and we move forward.
- We shoot down the above, IAA folds and our voice for the last 5 or so years vanishes.
- We have a panic and push anyone into the election, panic vote, and have a commitee unable to perform its tasks.


I'd probably go with option 1. Worst case scenario, in the event someone has a Tony Montana, arn't the commitee accountable to the members? I'm sure there is some emergency **** that can take place in the event they loose the plot?

I'd imagine there is safety nets there in the event we ever got a commitee who went insane, so surely if thats properly in place, there shouldn't be too much reservation about firing commercials interests into the hotseat.

Aslong as the membership hold them to a high standard and they perform their duties as expected, I don't see the problem.

And aslong as they arnt keeping a secret file on me and my activities, **** might even re-sub

Faolchu

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd probably go with option 1. Worst case scenario, in the event someone has a Tony Montana, arn't the commitee accountable to the members? I'm sure there is some emergency **** that can take place in the event they loose the plot?

I'd imagine there is safety nets there in the event we ever got a commitee who went insane, so surely if thats properly in place, there shouldn't be too much reservation about firing commercials interests into the hotseat.

i assue the constitution allows for the members to call an EGM and not just the committee. if it does then should someone go off tehrails X number of members can call an EGM to resolve teh situation. if it doesnt have such a clause then maybe it should. that way if the committee as a whole act up then the members can call an EGM and remove them from their position by majority vote

BioHazRd

Faolchu wrote: »

i assue the constitution allows for the members to call an EGM and not just the committee. if it does then should someone go off tehrails X number of members can call an EGM to resolve teh situation. if it doesnt have such a clause then maybe it should. that way if the committee as a whole act up then the members can call an EGM and remove them from their position by majority vote

You are 100% correct. That facility exists within the constitution. The membership is very much geared towards the players / plinkers / collectors and the committee is accountable to them. This can not change. Any constitutional change must be ratified by the membership. Even if the commercial interests are granted more rights than they currently have, there are a lot more ordinary members.

TheDoc

Faolchu wrote: »

i assue the constitution allows for the members to call an EGM and not just the committee. if it does then should someone go off tehrails X number of members can call an EGM to resolve teh situation. if it doesnt have such a clause then maybe it should. that way if the committee as a whole act up then the members can call an EGM and remove them from their position by majority vote

Agreed , that is my point, there is obviously alot of genuine concern over the initial proposal. But surely there are mechanisms in place to prevent such doomsday scenarios. And if its the only option, one that should be looked at seriously, and most probably excercised as opposed to packing it in.

Again its about the members holding their commitee to high standards. (and I guess all airsofters since as correclt ypointed out earlier, the mandate is for all airsofters in Ireland)

Faolchu

TheDoc wrote: »

Agreed , that is my point, there is obviously alot of genuine concern over the initial proposal. But surely there are mechanisms in place to prevent such doomsday scenarios. And if its the only option, one that should be looked at seriously, and most probably excercised as opposed to packing it in.

well the above would in theory mean that the commercial interests could not run wild so to speak. and if teh change also included a sub clause that limited the number of commercial interest parties on the committee and possible restricts them from holding the highest office in the IAA this would again ensure that players interest take the forefront because players on the committee can overrule by majority vote at a committee meeting, once the chair is not a commercial interest member (the chair usually has a deciding vote in a deadlock situation).

at the end of the day no players stepped forward, maybe because of what happened in the past, maybe its because the newer players like myself see no immediate benifit of the IAA (not saying there is no benifit), or because they have seen teh grief recieved by past/current committee members and dont want the hassle. so if no players stepped forward this is a workable solution IF its done right

se conman

Am I right in thinking that there would have to be an EGM to vote on the constitutional change and then (if passed) a further EGM for elections ?

BioHazRd

No. The constitutional change, as far as I am advised, can be voted on at the agm. Once this is voted on a call will be made for an EGM so that any potential candidates can go through the acceptable nomination procedure.
I don't know what the procedure would be if the amendment is defeated so please don't ask me to speculate. Perhaps someone with a cleverer head can address that one.

se conman

4. The Agenda of General Meeting and any proposed amendments to the constitution shall be sent to all
Members at least 30 days before the meeting.
This is what lead me to ask the question.

AlternateID

Where can a copy of the constitution be found?

Cheers

se conman

http://irishairsoft.ie/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/IAA_Constitution_2010.pdf

BioHazRd

se conman wrote: »

4. The Agenda of General Meeting and any proposed amendments to the constitution shall be sent to all
Members at least 30 days before the meeting.
This is what lead me to ask the question.

Granted, however, as there were no nominations, and the agm was called for jan 28, effectively the IAA will cease to exist at the conclusion of the AGM. This is an extraordinary measure to try and save it. If the motion is passed, my understanding is that the nomination process will have been materially changed with a new class of person being eligible for nomination, so the committee can call an EGM for the members to consider the new options. Again, I am no legal expert, and can only offer my advised opinion

drpepper

BioHazRd wrote: »

Granted, however, as there were no nominations, and the agm was called for jan 28, effectively the IAA will cease to exist at the conclusion of the AGM. This is an extraordinary measure to try and save it. If the motion is passed, my understanding is that the nomination process will have been materially changed with a new class of person being eligible for nomination, so the committee can call an EGM for the members to consider the new options. Again, I am no legal expert, and can only offer my advised opinion

I'm no fayer but i did learn a thing or two from him and stephane when they were legal advisors so here are the important points as i read them:

1. The AGM must be held within 90 days of the end of the Financial Year.
The end of the Financial Year is 31st of December.

2. At the AGM all positions are declared vacant and shall be filled.
Those that do not get filled can be done so by EGM.

So far all the above have been satisfied and will happen.
As it stands at the end of the AGM we will have no committee and anyone who was in the previous committee must acknowledge this.

Therefore in order to call the EGM we need the existing committee to do it before the AGM or there is no possible way to call the EGM without it being illegal --- we have 18 days to do point 3 and then the current committee picks a date over 40 days ahead for the EGM.

3. An EGM requires 30 days notice for the membership
The proposals need to be sent and received 40 days before the EGM.

(so we have to put it off for at least 40 days after the AGM)

4. Nominations will be made and seconded at the AGM.

************

So heres what we can do if we are to save the IAA.

Nominate people at the AGM for the 6 exec positions
i. Chairperson
ii. Vice Chair Person
iii Secretary
iv. PRO
v. Treasurer
vi. National Childrens Officer.

Motions:
1. Remove National Childrens Officer from Executive Committee
2. Put forward a motion to allow the commercial retailers to have positions but we need to have the number and wording correct.


Finally, this is not legal advise but believe me it is correct.
As it stands i will raise my head for an executive position at the very least to get this **** sorted even if temporarily, and i have nothing to lose here except time (which i don't exactly have a lot of but i've got passion which will do for now).

drpepper

Double posting to point that we need to do these proposals and have them up and running before time (18 days) runs out.

Also if you have any time and a desire to continue to make this association succeed then please post up that you want to run for a position.

hrta

I sincerely apologize to all the named below for my conduit and for the derailing of the thread with Dave, but i have to ask these questions, as this has happened to me, by the last 2009 2010 2011, committees,

But it needs to be out in the open, as if i try ed to post this on the IAA forum, it would only be deleted, and if the commercial interests are going to take up the post of the IAA,

They do have the right to know what they are getting in to, and if could have a back lash on them, and put there businesses on the line,
And what would happen if there was ever a legal case, and don't take this as scaremongering, do your own digging for the info, it all's there if you look for it, ask for it,

now this paper work they say they have, please ask them for it, and all the notorious reporting and accusing of retailers, and pretty much any site in your vicinity for hot guns, pyro, no insurance, and vandalising your site, that i have so called reported.
If any of you need to see what paper work i have on this, you are more then welcome to see it.

And i do really mean it, when i say this, i do hope it works out, for every airsofter out there, and then we can all move on and stronger for it.

1) How will people's personal data, which is held by the IAA, be used by the commercial interested party's.

2) Whats to stop the commercial interested party's, from blocking new business from trying to start up, or from monopolizing the market, that's here already.

3) And how will the commercial interested party's, look after the player, or buyer, act of conflict, even if the act of conflict, is with a member of the commercial interested party's.

Paul Carey.

Richard Seery..........Hobby Airsoft..........Affiliate
Derek Talbot...........Main Irish Airsoft.....Affiliate
Damian Dobbyn........Red Barn Airsoft......Non-Affiliate
Brendan O Neill........Fingal Airsoft..........Non-Affiliate
Lee Yang................SG Airsoft .............Affiliate
Brian Regan............Airsoft Reloaded......Affiliate
Stephen Hickey........Airsoft Eire............Affiliate
Alan Behan.............Strikearms............Affiliate
Kevin O Toole..........Tallaght CQB..........Non-Affiliate
David Robinson........Rathbeggan Airsoft..Affiliate
Peter Sharpe...........Go Tactical............Affiliate
Keith Richardson......Tigerland..............Affiliate
Tony Roche.............Mid West Airsoft.....Non-Affiliate
Joe Turner..............Asylum Airsoft........Non-Affiliate
Tony McCann...........The Airsoft Centre...Non-Affiliate

ricka

I was approached by an Airsoft enthusiast who had an idea of how to stop the IAA from collapse.
Off his own back,without any reason other than preserve an organisation he believes is fundamental to the continuance of Airsoft in Ireland, he put foward a plan to keep it from failing.
Nothing unethical, no hidden motives, just trying to preserve the IAA.
He approached just a few, again no hidden agenda, just a simple case of going to the guys he knows best, saying 'spread the word'.
This I did and yes some did not agree.
While I haven't agreed with everything posted by those opposing it, there have been some valid points raised.
While some of the posts have gone considerably off topic, there is a genuine concern that there is a conflict of interest.And they're right, there very well could be.
However do any people have an answer to how you control that, maybe we could come up with something before the AGM.

Just to add, I would say this thread may not be the train wreck its being perceived.
It has stirred emotions but hopefully has got people interested in attending the AGM.
If it leads to some genuine nominations for positions, like that of drpepper's 's post above, then it's been worthwhile.
The last thing we need is people to attend or nominate just to scupper this idea.We need people who are up for the job.
If we don't get nominations from players, then some of us are here and willing to go for exec positions.
I can't speak for all the retailers and site owners, but personally I would be delighted if we don't have to take on all these roles.

I didn't give the letter a huge amount of time or thought before signing it.
The time span for agreeing was so short, it negated time for debate and in my opinion, scuppering it!
Too many times these types of meeting are cancelled as a result of disagreements over times, agenda, invites....you know what I mean!
It was quite simply the best opportunity possible to get us all together.

If the IAA positions are filled by players then that's fine by me.
If they're filled by a combination of players and commercial interests again that's fine in my opinion.
If the IAA positions are filled by commercial interests only,then maybe with the proper structures in place, it could work.

If there are enough non commercial nominations to fill the board then I hope the retailers ans site owners will use this time to start something on their own or in conjunction with the IAA.
What happens in the next few weeks may be a good thing for Airsoft in Ireland.I think it's well overdue geting this sorted.My hope is is we have a strong IAA committee with a combination of players, retailers and site owners.This would and should work

BioHazRd

hrta wrote: »

1) How will people's personal data, which is held by the IAA, be used by the commercial interested party's.

It will be used for committee related work only as defined by the data protection act 1988 and as amended by the data protection (amendment) act 2003 - as already explained.

hrta wrote: »

2) Whats to stop the commercial interested party's, from blocking new business from trying to start up, or from monopolizing the market, that's here already.

The law. Specifically the competition act 2002 - as already explained

hrta wrote: »

3) And how will the commercial interested party's, look after the player, or buyer, act of conflict, even if the act of conflict, is with a member of the commercial interested party's.

The issue will be dealt with by non partisan members of the committee as would be normal in those circumstances (as has happened in the past). Any grievances will be brought to the attention of the committee (which should ideally comprise 6 people), so i am pretty sure an independent adjudicator could easily be found. Bear in mind the proposal is that the chair be reserved solely for non commercialy interested parties, so that could be an option if someone wanted a fair hearing, so highly unlikely at all that this scenario you are worried about could happen.

kdouglas

Thread closed. I'll review these posts later this morning and take action as necessary.

kdouglas

Ok, I'm going to start wading through this thread to see what I can do, I'm in work at the moment though, so it'll be back open when I have time to go through everything.

Edit @ 11.12: Finished reading now, I'll be splitting off some posts and issuing infractions. Thread will re-open shortly.
There are also some legal questions raised here which I will need to ask a CMod or possibly Admin to advise on.

Edit @ 11.21: Ok, a few posts have been removed for several reaons;
1) Posts which had direct allegations of, or alluded to, illegal activity and possible ongoing Garda investigation surrounding same.
2) Posts in response to above
3) Comments which directly mocked another poster.
3) Off-topic posts

I'll be asking a CMod/Admin to investigate posts relating to 1 and 2 above.

For now, this thread is re-opened. Healthy and open debate regarding the topic is encouraged, if anyone brings up the content from the removed posts, they will be given a very heavy ban.

Mister TETRA

Just a suggestion here people that may resolve a few issues. Maybe a good idea or be shot down straight off the bat but stick with me.

This is a sport and as such should be run like one. If you look across any sport in Ireland, or and country for that matter, it is heavily club based. Why not this route for Airsoft.

Suggestion is.
The IAA committee will be expanded from 3-5 members to X amount. Agreed that there are certain positions that must be filled. Chairperson, treasurer and so forth. These positions can only be held by persons of non commercial interest.
Airsofters have the right to set up their own club. Put a minimum set number of players before the club is recognized by the IAA. Example 40 people. Out of these 40 people they will nominate 1 person who will represent them in the IAA. Every county could have a club or some counties could have multiple clubs. This can all be ironed out through sensible discussion. This way everyone get a voice, within reason. The ranks of the IAA swells and no 5 people get full control. When a vote is called for an issue then all clubs can discuss the issue in house and send a decision forward and the vote is counted. That’s the players sorted.

Site owners. (Myself included).
Sites have the right to setup a club. Example Redbarn Airsoft club. They have X members and are recognised by the IAA. They get one vote.

Retailers.
All retailers are extended the one vote policy because this is where the IAA is heavily advertised. Also retailers are the ones most at risk if the IAA close. They, above all else, have invested more money, time and effort in making the sport more accessible to the general public.

Create a position of data protection officer. A non commercial postion filled by someone who has knowledge in DPA and an IT background or someone just senseible enought to know what they are doing.

The theory is if there are only 30 clubs around the country not affiliated with a site you will still outnumber the sites and retailers, thus removing the issue of a hostile takeover.
To me this makes sense. On other matters I have further suggestions.

1. To be affiliated with the IAA all site owners must meet a minimum standard set down by the body. Example. Insurance must be proven before you get a say. Sites must have Permission from the Superintendent of the local station. All sites should have a VAT or company number registered with the IAA and is fully tax compliant.

2. You could push for mandatory signup to the IAA. This would be free to all airsofters and the price be absorbed by the sites and retailers with an annual fee to the IAA. Say €1000. I’d happily pay that for my customers. There would be no pressure from the IAA for players to do anything. Just be constantly updated via email of what is happening in the sport.

Don’t think because I’m a site owner I want special privileges or access to every Airsofters email address for mailing. It would be nice but that’s not why we opened the site. We opened it because we love Airsoft. I want to see it go from strength to strength and this is one possible way forward.

And above all else.

I am an Airsofter first and foremost.

Dave.

Lemming

Mister TETRA wrote: »

Airsofters have the right to set up their own club. Put a minimum set number of players before the club is recognized by the IAA. Example 40 people. Out of these 40 people they will nominate 1 person who will represent them in the IAA. Every county could have a club or some counties could have multiple clubs. This can all be ironed out through sensible discussion. This way everyone get a voice, within reason. The ranks of the IAA swells and no 5 people get full control. When a vote is called for an issue then all clubs can discuss the issue in house and send a decision forward and the vote is counted. That’s the players sorted.

Site owners. (Myself included).
Sites have the right to setup a club. Example Redbarn Airsoft club. They have X members and are recognised by the IAA. They get one vote.

The above bit falls down I think for a couple of points. Firstly, is the critical mass needed for such a setup to function properly. There aren't enough players in each county to form that number of clubs, and you then run the risk of larger urban areas dominating through sheer voting power.

I may be wrong here as I have been out of the country a while - but afaik most clubs formed in the country were done so to also establish a local site on which to play. Sites & clubs generally are already competing for numbers on a weekly basis, and much like the state of retailers in the country, there is over-saturation which is bad.

So there's a blur between sites & clubs in the above proposal where they are the one and same, but obviously different since a club is esentially a 'by invitation only/members only' site.

I recall plans for regional representatives for the IAA - which would work in a similar manner to what I think you're trying to propose, i.e. closer representation of the membership? If' I've picked it up wrong then fair enough I'll stand corrected. Not sure what ever happened to those plans for regional reps.

Create a position of data protection officer. A non commercial postion filled by someone who has knowledge in DPA and an IT background or someone just senseible enought to know what they are doing.

Rather than create a new role within the IAA, I would suggest that whomever is the webmaster or legal liason be tasked with the task.

AirsoftEire.com

ricka wrote: »

I didn't give the letter a huge amount of time or thought before signing it.
The time span for agreeing was so short, it negated time for debate and in my opinion, scuppering it!
Too many times these types of meeting are cancelled as a result of disagreements over times, agenda, invites....you know what I mean!
It was quite simply the best opportunity possible to get us all together.

If the IAA positions are filled by players then that's fine by me.
If they're filled by a combination of players and commercial interests again that's fine in my opinion.
If the IAA positions are filled by commercial interests only,then maybe with the proper structures in place, it could work.

If there are enough non commercial nominations to fill the board then I hope the retailers ans site owners will use this time to start something on their own or in conjunction with the IAA.
What happens in the next few weeks may be a good thing for Airsoft in Ireland.I think it's well overdue geting this sorted.My hope is is we have a strong IAA committee with a combination of players, retailers and site owners.This would and should work

Bit of a cop-out to say I agree with this and that's all I want to add, but Richards post pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole thing.
I too didn't give the letter much thought before signing, however to me it was a no-brainer.

From being around well before and then during, the IAAs hard work with the Dept of Justice, and when the members were travelling around the country on their own time to ensure affiliates had suitable premises, practices, standards etc, it was clear how important the IAA were and still are.

The bottom line is that the IAA is on the rocks, no members put themselves forwards, nor did any players. We all agreed (retailers and sites) that if the aforementioned didn't want to be part of it (whether its down to not knowing about the positions or unwillingness to take part I don't know), we have to become part it if its to remain active. However maybe now that more players know about the AGM, there may be no need for us to be part of the IAA, thats fine by me.
Its about keeping the IAA alive, nothing more, no conflicting interests and all that messing around. But the commercial entities still, without a doubt in my mind, need some kind of organisation to increase our strength as a whole.

The fact is that it's the retailers and sites that are dealing with the authorities day in and day out. If we cannot deal with the Dept of Justice, Gardaí, Customs, Firearms unit, Revenue etc, as a WHOLE, then we're all p*ssing in the wind. Ideally, I think the IAA should be made of up of both players and commercial entities. To exclude either/or (this may/may not have been suggested) is infeasible and narrow-minded.

I think its a big mistake not to let shops/sites become active members. Players/sites/shops cannot survive without each other, but crucially the law directly effects business first, and players as a result. If things can be ironed out regarding the law, licenses, importation etc etc between business and the dept of justice/customs over the next year with the IAAs help, we can secure the sport for many more years to come.

See you all at the AGM.

Stephen

Mister TETRA

AirsoftEire.com wrote: »

Bit of a cop-out to say I agree with this and that's all I want to add, but Richards post pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole thing.
I too didn't give the letter much thought before signing, however to me it was a no-brainer.

From being around well before and then during, the IAAs hard work with the Dept of Justice, and when the members were travelling around the country on their own time to ensure affiliates had suitable premises, practices, standards etc, it was clear how important the IAA were and still are.

The bottom line is that the IAA is on the rocks, no members put themselves forwards, nor did any players. We all agreed (retailers and sites) that if the aforementioned didn't want to be part of it (whether its down to not knowing about the positions or unwillingness to take part I don't know), we have to become part it if its to remain active. However maybe now that more players know about the AGM, there may be no need for us to be part of the IAA, thats fine by me.
Its about keeping the IAA alive, nothing more, no conflicting interests and all that messing around. But the commercial entities still, without a doubt in my mind, need some kind of organisation to increase our strength as a whole.

The fact is that it's the retailers and sites that are dealing with the authorities day in and day out. If we cannot deal with the Dept of Justice, Gardaí, Customs, Firearms unit, Revenue etc, as a WHOLE, then we're all p*ssing in the wind. Ideally, I think the IAA should be made of up of both players and commercial entities. To exclude either/or (this may/may not have been suggested) is infeasible and narrow-minded.

I think its a big mistake not to let shops/sites become active members. Players/sites/shops cannot survive without each other, but crucially the law directly effects business first, and players as a result. If things can be ironed out regarding the law, licenses, importation etc etc between business and the dept of justice/customs over the next year with the IAAs help, we can secure the sport for many more years to come.

See you all at the AGM.

Stephen

I completely agree with Stephen. In fact NOBODY has more to lose or more on the line than Retailers and Site owners.

I'll see you all at the AGM.

Dave.

Airsoft Reloded

At the end of the day passing this motion doesn't mean that commercial interests are going to take over the IAA, sure most likely a lot of us wouldn't run for a position. It just means that some individuals who really want to help, have time available and the skills needed and can take up a position within the association. Even if they do it isn't going to be a white wash of everything the IAA stands for. Why would they run for a position within the IAA if they don't agree with where it is going? If we look after each other we can take airsoft to greater heights in Ireland, maybe to the level of England and other countries.

The important thing about this motion is that it is a statement that we are all willing to work together, even if its in a support role only I would personally have no problem providing space for IAA sales/sign ups, funds, support or man power to the IAA if it is representative of all of our interests and has people within it who are in a position to commit to run it properly. I would also have no problem providing help to other sites or retailers in the form of lending marshalls or bringing a group to thier site for events or advertising retailers when they have sales on or a new deal they have on offer.

Arkslippy

Mister tetra has the basis of a good plan. golf in Ireland is.run on a similar basis.

Blazer

To be honest I was tempted to join the IAA as I've some free time on my hands and wanted to be involved.
However and this is a huge problem....for the past two years I just couldn't join up.
First off there was the paypal issue and this went on for about 6 months and when it was finally resolved back in last February and I got the form in and paid the printer :rolleyes: went down and I've yet to get a membership card.
I've sent numerous emails about both the paypal issue and the printer issue and got the usual reassurances that it would all be fixed soon but it's still going on to this date...I'm not even sure if I'm a member or not...

In the face of losing the IAA completely then we need to involve retailers etc and allow them to hold some of the positions but players must put themselves forward for it.
After the issue of last year within the IAA we need people who will represent the sport with Integrity etc regardless of whether they're commercially involved or not.

Mister TETRA

Blazer wrote: »

To be honest I was tempted to join the IAA as I've some free time on my hands and wanted to be involved.
However and this is a huge problem....for the past two years I just couldn't join up.
First off there was the paypal issue and this went on for about 6 months and when it was finally resolved back in last February and I got the form in and paid the printer :rolleyes: went down and I've yet to get a membership card.
I've sent numerous emails about both the paypal issue and the printer issue and got the usual reassurances that it would all be fixed soon but it's still going on to this date...I'm not even sure if I'm a member or not...

In the face of losing the IAA completely then we need to involve retailers etc and allow them to hold some of the positions but players must put themselves forward for it.
After the issue of last year within the IAA we need people who will represent the sport with Integrity etc regardless of whether they're commercially involved or not.

Retailers and some site owners could be in a position to take over this card issue, but I believe the issue is that we will have access to people's details as they sign up. Even as a site owner I feel this is wrong, but we could provide the equipment involved in the process. I have no problem in loaning or paying for printers and sundries to the IAA.

As for PayPal and other Internet based issues, there should be an IT position within the IAA to deal with this.