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An Open Letter to All Irish Airsofters *mod warning in post 2 and 143, please read*

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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    J.D.R wrote: »
    horgan_p wrote: »
    So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

    While I don't know if they did join recently or not, how would that be a bad thing?

    As has been said by others, the IAA is not what it used to be 2/3 years ago. To me personally, there does not seem to be any advantage to being affiliated with an organisation that the very people it represents don't want to be a part of.

    Now, however, when a solution is posed to fix/bolster the IAA, becoming affiliated is suddenly a bad thing? Seems a strange point of view to be honest


    I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying to be involved you'd HAVE to be affiliated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭dinko4gr


    se conman wrote: »
    The only anti change issue I would be concerned with is "who will guard the guardians ?"

    Who can assure me ( i wont pretend to talk for anyone else's part ) that allowing this change will not end up with the below :

    Some kind of ridiculous cert'ing on AEG (not exclusively) costing 50 euro and can only be obtained by retailers, that will effectively kill second hand trading along with the importation ban?

    Monopoly/cartel type sites that membership is forced down our throats and fees skyrocketing?

    I can think of several other "worst-case" scenarios but i think you all understand what im talking about. I have nothing against retailers or site owners as they are -simply put- people trying to run their business's to turn around profit and live out of it. History has proven though that we ARE human, meaning give someone/a group with a vested interested the power to call the shots he/she/they WILL abuse it one way or the other to their benefit.

    On the other hand is there really an alternative? Idealists running the IAA and working towards that utopia where all is good and fair and pink etc (without everyone on the planet hooked on some kind of psychotropic substance)? Im not a pessimist im just pragmatist enough to realize that good intentions and the will to help "pro bono publico" is a fast burning fuel with low if not rare supply.

    My suggestion: Give them (retailers/site owners) a fair chance to prove they can maintain a balance between moving the sport/hobby/obsession we call airsoft forward and (harshly put)filing their pockets. To be honest anyone who helps having something done properly/ progress should be compensated one way or the other. But before handing over the baton make sure that safeguards are in place to avoid abuse as much humanly possible.

    Once more for the records im not taking a shot at the retailer/site owners. Some of them in my humble opinion do it properly and those are the ones on the receiving end of my hard earned money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭se conman


    The bottom line is this proposal can only be decided by airsofters at the IAA AGM and I would urge everyone to join and have their votes counted. While the IAA is there/here for members and non-members alike , if you don't join , you can't vote , so while anyone (myself included) can debate the merits of the changes here , the important thing is to be at the AGM and vote.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    My own personal opinion is that we can secure the sport, now granted it is mostly secure but not enough for a lot of commercial interests to invest more than they already have. I've had several discussions with others involved in the commercial end of things and most feel the same in this regard.

    so what makes it more secure? lets look at the current position should we

    - IAA now iasra in all but name if this goes ahead
    - possible commercial interest running IAA ( lets me realist hear, no one wanted to do it, so existing members have gone to retailers rather than fold, so commercial will be running the organization)
    - personal importation ban enforced

    very few commercial interested wanted nothing to do with the IAA up until this point, why the c change? there was nothing stopping you guys have more involvement and interest in the past

    once again where are the check and balances, will a retailer vote for something that will be negative for their business but positive for the community?
    Another plus is that we can start working together for better events e.t.c. As Doc said we can come up with basic standards and rather than hinder new comers to the commercial end of things the committee would be a great source of knowledge and help.

    what about the players that see that as a bad direct for airsoft?
    Sites are going to look after shops and players because they need them, retailers are going to look after collectors, plinkers, skirmishers and sites because they need them and the body is going to look after everyone because it needs them all. Without players there are no shops or sites but without shops and sites there is no airsoft at all so we HAVE to look after each other’s interest. After years of working side by side (sometimes at odds) it’s about time we all worked together and did it right for us all.

    That was my main concern, what is good for business is not necessarily what is good for the hobby in the long run, hobbyairsoft have said it already most of their business is more transient players or just people that have nothing to do with the 'hobby' of airsoft and has nothing to do with the long term development of the hobby just sales they do not need 'players' as by their own words there doing fine without 'players' and that is not their main revenue source.

    The harsh reality is that their are to many sites and shops for Ireland, their are a lot of fly by night sites and retailers that have less that healthy practices, commercial interests can not address this issue with falling foul of competition rules and being accused of all nasty stuff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭se conman


    This is not a cut at anybody just a question but ,
    What happens if there is NO IAA ?


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    My apologies to Airsoft reloaded for my post above , they are affiliated already.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    horgan_p wrote: »
    So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

    Airsoft reloaded have been an IAA affiliate since 2009.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    gerrowadat wrote: »
    horgan_p wrote: »
    So why have Airsoft reloaded never been affiliated before now ? I do assume you'd have to become affiliated to get on the committee ? Or would it just be individual members / employees ?

    Airsoft reloaded have been an IAA affiliate since 2009.


    I know. I pointed it out and corrected myself in the post above yours


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


    dinko4gr wrote: »
    Who can assure me ( i wont pretend to talk for anyone else's part ) that allowing this change will not end up with the below :

    Some kind of ridiculous cert'ing on AEG (not exclusively) costing 50 euro and can only be obtained by retailers, that will effectively kill second hand trading along with the importation ban?

    Monopoly/cartel type sites that membership is forced down our throats and fees skyrocketing?

    Both of these things are illegal. If an IAA committee with commercial interests onit started doing this, there are enough concerned players with the requisite know-how anfd motivation to have the competition authority step in and kick bollocks through necks.
    My suggestion: Give them (retailers/site owners) a fair chance to prove they can maintain a balance between moving the sport/hobby/obsession we call airsoft forward and (harshly put)filing their pockets. To be honest anyone who helps having something done properly/ progress should be compensated one way or the other. But before handing over the baton make sure that safeguards are in place to avoid abuse as much humanly possible.

    Once more for the records im not taking a shot at the retailer/site owners. Some of them in my humble opinion do it properly and those are the ones on the receiving end of my hard earned money.

    This. I absolutely agree. The initial proposal is there, to remove the clause about commercial interests. The job is by no means done, checks and balances must be in there (for example, making sure there's a player as the chair, or suchlike.

    There are a significant number of people out there who are capable and wiling to serve on a *staffed* IAA committee. Not muddle by with 2 other guys with no time or resources.

    The AGM just got interesting IMHO. I'd like to see a proposal ASAP about how these checks and balances will be put in. What likely to happen is the AGM in a few weeks will be this manedment, any other amendments for checks and balances, and then an EGM a few weeks after that to give time for people to be nominated if they weren't eligible before.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭Tommyboy71


    There is one big question here and it is "what if it becomes Ukara 2.0" . There is a very simple answer. The retailers and sites could wait until the IAA folds and set up their own organisation where the ordinary Joe Soap does not get a look in. That will prevent players,collectors or plinkers from having a voice.

    They haven't. They are willing to step up and put themselves forward to keep the IAA going. The players still have a part to play and this is where the checks and balances comes in to play. The chairmans position is non commercial. This is something that the commercial side looked for. They are not looking to take over and run it with all commercial bodies on the committe. Players still have the option to run the association and hold any of the positions. If all of the positions get filled by players then there will be no issue from the commercial side. If there are any dodgy dealings going on, if the members or indeed any of the comittie don't like what's going on they can look for an EGM to be called. Players wont have that if the commercial side set up their own association.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    Tommyboy71 wrote: »
    There is one big question here and it is "what if it becomes Ukara 2.0" . There is a very simple answer. The retailers and sites could wait until the IAA folds and set up their own organisation where the ordinary Joe Soap does not get a look in. That will prevent players,collectors or plinkers from having a voice.

    They haven't. They are willing to step up and put themselves forward to keep the IAA going. The players still have a part to play and this is where the checks and balances comes in to play. The chairmans position is non commercial. This is something that the commercial side looked for. They are not looking to take over and run it with all commercial bodies on the committe. Players still have the option to run the association and hold any of the positions. If all of the positions get filled by players then there will be no issue from the commercial side. If there are any dodgy dealings going on, if the members or indeed any of the comittie don't like what's going on they can look for an EGM to be called. Players wont have that if the commercial side set up their own association.

    there have been attempts to moves in the past to set up commercial focused groups that have been stopped by the committee and know the iaa is turning into what many argued against in the past
    Both of these things are illegal. If an IAA committee with commercial interests onit started doing this, there are enough concerned players with the requisite know-how anfd motivation to have the competition authority step in and kick bollocks through necks.

    what you mean the same group of concerned dedicated players who are standing for the iaa at the moment and being an active part.......
    The AGM just got interesting IMHO

    your choice of words is interesting, there are a few people that see the politics of airsoft as a game and all the drama a bit of fun, if you 'interested; know because of the drama your interested fo the wrong reason


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    TBH the most interesting thing for me is the influx of support know directing towards this thread ( even more telling it is direct hear rather than the iaa forum ) from retailers on facebook, retailers that mentioned nothing about the AGM but know it is support iaa, join up and support the changes, before this there had been no mention or even anti iaa

    why this change? why no support for the organization before this point? the points about growing the community and insuring its safety could have been done before this point?

    all the points that retailers what to accomplish can all be done without being on the committee


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭Tommyboy71


    Puding wrote: »
    there have been attempts to moves in the past to set up commercial focused groups that have been stopped by the committee and know the iaa is turning into what many argued against in the past

    In the past there were enough people going for positions on the committee. It goes back to what I said earlier. If the players don't step up the commercial interests could form their own association with no players involved in decision making or ensuring that the player base is represented.

    They have not done that. They are actively trying to get the association back on its feet. If it works then great. If not then we,as players, have a vote and we can demand changes. This might take a while to get right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    Tommyboy71 wrote: »
    In the past there were enough people going for positions on the committee. It goes back to what I said earlier. If the players don't step up the commercial interests could form their own association with no players involved in decision making or ensuring that the player base is represented.

    They have not done that. They are actively trying to get the association back on its feet. If it works then great. If not then we,as players, have a vote and we can demand changes. This might take a while to get right.

    but from everything i've seen this is iasra in all but name. the same structure that people argued very passionately about

    so why did these same retailers not actively support the IAA before this point? some have been member other have not, but i've seen only one actively support players involvement in the IAA and promoting players to get involved, i point you to my previous post above for more on this
    They have not done that. They are actively trying to get the association back on its feet. If it works then great. If not then we,as players, have a vote and we can demand changes. This might take a while to get right.
    .

    again the same as dave hear, what you mean the really active community supporting the IAA..........ow right that does not exist, players do not care about the IAA in reality, the vast majority of players are loyal more to their local retailer than the community as a whole


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭fayer


    The IAA is in this situation right now because before the last AGM people on the sideline scare mongered and tried to call off an AGM unilaterally outside of their powers. The same people that provided that incorrect advice, to some members of the pervious committee, who have never sat on the committee are again lobbing in extreme opinions from the sidelines making the situation a hell of allot more dramatic than it actually is.

    Fact - Cartel operations are illegal and covered under the competition act
    Fact - Anyone who's suspects any cartel like activity can report it, you dont need a lawyer, or court, the competition authority can take care of it
    Fact - the IAA will close without a committee

    Where do we go....

    My Opinion - Its clear that the IAA needs professionals to run and represent our sport. Sites and shops are being closed, we are under threat, we need the IAA. I supported the non comercial amendment to the constitution when it was proposed, now the law (CJA 2009) is drafted and enacted I am no longer worried of an overly comercial tainted direction.

    UKARA requires the VCRA (UK Violent Crime reduction act), our legal framework dose not support this model. Also the DoJ totally rejected this model at one of the IAA's meetings with them (I was personally at that meeting) So I am not worried about this element. Under the competition act it is highly unlikely any such operating model would be legal. Many layers of protection from this idea in my opinion.

    Il end this rant on 2 points

    If you have no constructive suggestions to add please shut up and stop scare mongering.

    Do not now stand up and volunteer for a position now as a reaction to this move,the IAA need people that actually want to be on the committee genuine reasons to help the sport, not to simply keep out someone eles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭fayer


    Puding wrote: »
    but from everything i've seen this is iasra in all but name. the same structure that people argued very passionately about

    so why did these same retailers not actively support the IAA before this point? some have been member other have not, but i've seen only one actively support players involvement in the IAA and promoting players to get involved, i point you to my previous post above for more on this

    IASRA was totally different
    No consideration (payment) for signup
    People must be member to own kit
    No non comercial members on the committee

    The IAA framework dose not change, only 1 word in the constitution will be changed.

    Commercials sitting on the IAA is better than no IAA or a new totally comercial body setup without the IAA framework and protections because the IAA has folded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    fayer wrote: »
    IASRA was totally different
    No consideration (payment) for signup
    People must be member to own kit
    No non comercial members on the committee

    that is specific policies, the IAA will be dominated by retail by the simple fact that no one else is up for places, player or non commercial as chairmen with retailers as committee with players tagged on in the back ground, sounds like what is about to happen to the iaa to me

    situation for you, community wants pressure on sites to say for example enforce child protection ( we are a sport after all apparently ) so ages have to be split, why would sites sitting on the committee vote for this?
    The IAA framework dose not change, only 1 word in the constitution will be changed.

    the one that had actually had the most impact and the direction of the organization
    Commercials sitting on the IAA is better than no IAA or a new totally comercial body setup without the IAA framework and protections because the IAA has folded.

    why? i remember a lot of arguments that this should be the case rather than having players and retail mixed


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    fayer wrote: »
    The IAA is in this situation right now because before the last AGM people on the sideline scare mongered and tried to call off an AGM unilaterally outside of their powers. The same people that provided that incorrect advice, to some members of the pervious committee, who have never sat on the committee are again lobbing in extreme opinions from the sidelines making the situation a hell of allot more dramatic than it actually is.

    Fact - Cartel operations are illegal and covered under the competition act
    Fact - Anyone who's suspects any cartel like activity can report it, you dont need a lawyer, or court, the competition authority can take care of it
    Fact - the IAA will close without a committee

    Where do we go....

    My Opinion - Its clear that the IAA needs professionals to run and represent our sport. Sites and shops are being closed, we are under threat, we need the IAA. I supported the non comercial amendment to the constitution when it was proposed, now the law (CJA 2009) is drafted and enacted I am no longer worried of an overly comercial tainted direction.

    UKARA requires the VCRA (UK Violent Crime reduction act), our legal framework dose not support this model. Also the DoJ totally rejected this model at one of the IAA's meetings with them (I was personally at that meeting) So I am not worried about this element. Under the competition act it is highly unlikely any such operating model would be legal. Many layers of protection from this idea in my opinion.

    Il end this rant on 2 points

    If you have no constructive suggestions to add please shut up and stop scare mongering.

    Do not now stand up and volunteer for a position now as a reaction to this move,the IAA need people that actually want to be on the committee genuine reasons to help the sport, not to simply keep out someone eles.

    why is it when you have made these exact same arrangements in the past it is for the good of the community but know that you have changed your opinion, if others carry on with this point of view then it is now scary mongering?

    why compare to the uk all the time, that is scare mongering in itself, we justify choices and the direction of change because 'things could be worse'


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    fayer wrote: »
    The IAA is in this situation right now because before the last AGM people on the sideline scare mongered and tried to call off an AGM unilaterally outside of their powers. The same people that provided that incorrect advice, to some members of the pervious committee, who have never sat on the committee are again lobbing in extreme opinions from the sidelines making the situation a hell of allot more dramatic than it actually is.

    Steve ,
    If you want to ask me a question or say something to me then use my name , don't allude to me.I provided the advice to the previous committee because of defamatory comments and accusations which flew around the IAA forum last year.Accusations which where never proven or even proven to have been investigated.Now if you want to open this can of worms , get the mods permission and we'll discuss it.
    fayer wrote: »
    Fact - Cartel operations are illegal and covered under the competition act
    Fact - Anyone who's suspects any cartel like activity can report it, you dont need a lawyer, or court, the competition authority can take care of it

    I'll take your learned advice on this one.
    fayer wrote: »
    Fact - the IAA will close without a committee

    Something we agree on.
    fayer wrote: »
    Where do we go....

    My Opinion - Its clear that the IAA needs professionals to run and represent our sport. Sites and shops are being closed, we are under threat, we need the IAA. I supported the non comercial amendment to the constitution when it was proposed, now the law (CJA 2009) is drafted and enacted I am no longer worried of an overly comercial tainted direction.

    UKARA requires the VCRA (UK Violent Crime reduction act), our legal framework dose not support this model. Also the DoJ totally rejected this model at one of the IAA's meetings with them (I was personally at that meeting) So I am not worried about this element. Under the competition act it is highly unlikely any such operating model would be legal. Many layers of protection from this idea in my opinion.

    Il end this rant on 2 points

    If you have no constructive suggestions to add please shut up and stop scare mongering.

    Do not now stand up and volunteer for a position now as a reaction to this move,the IAA need people that actually want to be on the committee genuine reasons to help the sport, not to simply keep out someone eles.

    What about constructive questions ? or should we not ask questions either. No one's accusing anyone of anything. People are asking how this would work , and what checks and balances would be in place to stop it going wrong.


    In my experience , you can always rely on a businessman to be interested in their business. If it comes down to players or business which one do you think they'd look after ? If they're any good at running a business they'll look after the business. It's what I would do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Lads just to be clear on a few subjects here.

    Iasra was formed and we joined, we then moved to the IAA because we thought they respresented the airsoft and we helped fcilitate a sit down between the two organisations. We listened to forward thinking people like Fayer and Dave and how they and Derek addressed a few outstanding issues.

    My point is that the IAA didn't "stop" Iasra, they wanted it to happen. Noone every thought a "chamber of commerce" type thing would be a bad idea and the only difference is that those people will all be working together in one organisation with a common goal.

    If there is no IAA none of you havea voice, none of us have a voice and what then? How do we deal with the doj, protect our sport if there is noone to do it. Don't get me wrong here, I have been critical of the IAA in the past and for good reason most of the time but I have to admit that you just don't really consider the fact that they are normal people with millions of other things to do.

    I completely understand all your points @Puding but your an intelligent guy so why not suggest options for the problems you've pointed out, this isn't a government, we don't need an oppisition. If everyone makes suggestions we can act on them and if we don't you'll know and can point it out or have your concern raised at the agm.

    I hear what Oddy says about staying off boards but I like the fact that you can be held to account by the community and address what issues they have publically.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    I completely understand all your points @Puding but your an intelligent guy so why not suggest options for the problems you've pointed out, this isn't a government, we don't need an oppisition. If everyone makes suggestions we can act on them and if we don't you'll know and can point it out or have your concern raised at the agm.

    you talking as if the choice has already been made and this is already in place that is the problems, are you talking as an individual or on behalf of the committee already ?

    my opinion is the same as it has always been, but at this stage the iaa is a direct reflection of the community as a whole, it is apathetic its does not care, at this stage the iaa needs to die the individuals that have been the driving force need to move away and as the community grows and matures it will settle down and areas of the hobby will gravitate towards each other and support each other

    inviting commercial interests is a last ditched attempt to keep something alive that is to far broken and has to much baggage, if no one else can see the storm on the horizon then fair enough, but i will still support the community if this is what the committee wants but that is the problem i do not hand on heart believe this is what the committee as a whole wants but rather the direct a few individuals fell is right at this point in time

    and that is what the iaa has always been, what a few individuals feel is best, and back to the beginning the community is apathetic and reality had never cared


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    My point is that the IAA didn't "stop" Iasra, they wanted it to happen. Noone every thought a "chamber of commerce" type thing would be a bad idea and the only difference is that those people will all be working together in one organisation with a common goal.

    yes a free standing body separate from the IAA committee structure, this is completely different or is the the committee to know be a defacto chamber of commerce?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Puding wrote: »
    so what makes it more secure? lets look at the current position should we

    - IAA now iasra in all but name if this goes ahead
    - possible commercial interest running IAA ( lets me realist hear, no one wanted to do it, so existing members have gone to retailers rather than fold, so commercial will be running the organization)
    - personal importation ban enforced

    very few commercial interested wanted nothing to do with the IAA up until this point, why the c change? there was nothing stopping you guys have more involvement and interest in the past

    once again where are the check and balances, will a retailer vote for something that will be negative for their business but positive for the community?

    You, the airsoft member. You'll vote against things you disagree with and vote for things you agree with. What else would you like to see put in place?
    Puding wrote: »
    what about the players that see that as a bad direct for airsoft?

    What I said before was just an example, I didn't say it would happen I said it could if it was considered a good thing and again no governing body and accomadate everybody, there is always going to be someone unhappy with a decission no matter what you do.
    Puding wrote: »
    That was my main concern, what is good for business is not necessarily what is good for the hobby in the long run, hobbyairsoft have said it already most of their business is more transient players or just people that have nothing to do with the 'hobby' of airsoft and has nothing to do with the long term development of the hobby just sales they do not need 'players' as by their own words there doing fine without 'players' and that is not their main revenue source.

    The harsh reality is that their are to many sites and shops for Ireland, their are a lot of fly by night sites and retailers that have less that healthy practices, commercial interests can not address this issue with falling foul of competition rules and being accused of all nasty stuff.

    I can't think of anyone better to handle sites or retailers who don't go by the law than other sites and retailers whose business depends on the government and garda seeing that we are all legit. You keep illuding to business men not choosing whats best for the sport and choosing whats best for them, can you think of a situation where our aims would diverge? I can't think of a single one bar maybe the importation ban and I'm pretty sure it was the player ran IAA who came up with that so.........

    I see the logic in the importation ban personally, the less hastle you cause customs and the garda the less likely you are to have issues with them. I'm not fully up to date with all the details regarding that so this is my uneducated personall opinion on the matter.

    Just to be clear on a few subjects here.

    Iasra was formed and we joined, we then moved to the IAA because we thought they respresented the airsoft community better and we then helped fcilitate a sit down between the two organisations. We listened to forward thinking people like Fayer and Dave and how they and Derek addressed a few outstanding issues.

    My point is that the IAA didn't "stop" Iasra, they wanted it to happen. Noone every thought a "chamber of commerce" type thing would be a bad idea and the only difference is that those people will all be working together in one organisation with a common goal.

    If there is no IAA none of you have a voice, none of us have a voice and what then? How do we deal with the doj, protect our sport if there is noone to do it. Don't get me wrong here, I have been critical of the IAA in the past and for good reason most of the time but I have to admit that you just don't really consider the fact that they are normal people with millions of other things to do.

    I completely understand all your points @Puding & horgan p but your intelligent guys so why not suggest options for the problems you've pointed out, this isn't a government, none of us need an oppisition. If everyone makes suggestions we can act on them and if we don't you'll know and can point it out or have your concern raised at the agm.

    I hear what Oddy says about staying off boards but I like the fact that you can be held to account by the community and address what issues they have publically. Obviously your going to have to deal with people who don't really understand and argue because of that lack of understanding or because they completely disagree but that's life, we can work through it and reach a consensus for the good of the sport.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,606 Mod ✭✭✭✭horgan_p


    Let the commercial interests set up the commercial body (If they can agree with each other for long enough),let the players set up the players body.
    the 2 bodies work together.
    If the commercial interests can't get themselves organized than TS and likewise the players.

    Why are we forcing something on people that they blatantly either don't want or don't care enough about ? If people were interested in the IAA then why didn't they stand for nomination ?

    My one main question - did the IAA committee approach the commercial interests about this , or did the commercial interests approach the IAA ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    You, the airsoft member. You'll vote against things you disagree with and vote for things you agree with. What else would you like to see put in place?

    i vote at the agm i do not vote at committee meetings, i can vote agiant putting this in place but if it is put in place after that it is up to the committee and that is where these choices will be made
    What I said before was just an example, I didn't say it would happen I said it could if it was considered a good thing and again no governing body and accomadate everybody, there is always going to be someone unhappy with a decission no matter what you do.

    yes and i;ve always said that you can not please everyone, it is actually one of the issue of the IAA in it tried to be to much to to many and was so diluted it meant nothing, my point was more that the opinions you're stating are know potential policy points if you choice to stand for the committee
    I can't think of anyone better to handle sites or retailers who don't go by the law than other sites and retailers whose business depends on the government and garda seeing that we are all legit. You keep illuding to business men not choosing whats best for the sport and choosing whats best for them, can you think of a situation where our aims would diverge? I can't think of a single one bar maybe the importation ban and I'm pretty sure it was the player ran IAA who came up with that so.........

    child protection
    best practice for downgrading
    first aid requirements for sites
    pushing sites for basic level of facility's

    to name a few, issue that have been outstanding for years tbh


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    There has never been, and never will be a case where the collusion of commercial interests with political and governing organisation has not resulted in something exploitative or detrimental to the consumer and general public.

    That said - and believe me when I say it disgusts me to my very core - if there is no one willing to stand in the way of a commercial coup (either by taking over the IAA or by allowing it to fold and then claiming victory in the aftermath) then this entire conversation is already academic and moot.

    To paraphraze George Carlin; a population gets the leaders it deserves. If you have a lazy, entitled and callow population you get lazy, entitled and callow leaders because thats the talent pool you have to draw from.

    Let me be blunt. The association needs to be run by the consumers, not the merchants. Economic considerations should be a tertiary concern after the principals the association was founded upon and the continued freedom to play the game.

    We have already seen the kind of measures that the commercial interests have proposed through the now defunct IASRA group. Restriction of sales. Databasing of personal information. Required memberships etc. I know Fayer has pointed out that these kinds of thing are prohibited under Irish law but objectively, that legislation is only as effective as the policing backing it up. Unless the powers-that-be are going to spend a disproportionate ammount of resources to police the commercial actions of a ludicrously small group of people with an ludicrously small economic influence then that policing will never materialize.

    On a personal note it's deeply saddening to see something collapse that was so important - a collective effort by a small group of a few hundred to a few thousand people standing up to their own government and saying "We are responsible enough to look after ourselves" - and winning. Not commercial interests with money to throw at a problem. Not vested interests with the ear of politicians. Just ordinary people willing to stand up for themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭fayer


    On your previous point, I'm smarter than to name names ;)
    horgan_p wrote: »
    Let the commercial interests set up the commercial body (If they can agree with each other for long enough),let the players set up the players body.

    I like this idea, I promoted it, I offered to facilitate the setup of a commercial body that was subordinate to the IAA player (collector) committee. It was torpedoed by paranoid raveings of the conspiracy lobby that try's to run this sport from there arm chairs.


    What players to run the IAA???? No one will stand up! And at this point no one should if there only moviation is to keep willing, professionals out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    What players to run the IAA???? No one will stand up! And at this point no one should if there only moviation is to keep willing, professionals out.

    given that why have none of these motivated individuals set up there own body by this point then, as the idea of a commercial body has been out there and as many people have posted promoted by the iaa for years, why do nothing untill this point, i assume by your remarks the iaa approached the retailers then or did the retailer come to the iaa with this idea rather than a separate body#?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    @Puding

    Mate all you did there was try to negate everything I said, simply put there are a lot of people trying to work this out and instead of helping or even being constructive your just saying "never, never, never".

    Give us another option (one that actually can happen, not just "Players should do it")!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


    @Puding

    Mate all you did there was try to negate everything I said, simply put there are a lot of people trying to work this out and instead of helping or even being constructive your just saying "never, never, never".

    Give us another option (one that actually can happen, not just "Players should do it")!

    it is a negative situation in my eyes, and there is no getting away from that, the situation is fundamental broken

    now lets get a few things straight, if you know me you know i have been around hear for some time, i try and keep consistent in my view and think i do a good job

    - im not a troll
    - im not hear to cause trouble
    - points i make i make because i feel they need to be made
    - i have no vested interest
    - i do not actually care if the iaa lives or dies in the short term i'm interested in what is good in the long term

    the reality is none of the issue people have raised have been really been answered, there is a lot of talk without any real addressing of the concerns,

    little point it is not for me or other players to justify why these changes should not take place. but for us to be convince by others why we should vote for these changes


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