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Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

13567

Comments

  • #102
    Boroimhe
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    Rhinocharge wrote: »
    The way to prevent cheaters is simple, every airsofter joins the IAA, the card is issued. Every players signs a best practice contract. If your caught cheating, your number is taken, 3 strikes & your card is cancelled.
    The IAA issue list of cancelled cheater cards. Venues check the list on inspection. Cheaters are refused admission. You can't barr someone without a barring order.
    For new players, rentals are issued, until they own a card.
    Cheating is a small problem that affects the community.

    Hot guns, well that affects the sport.
    We downgrade guns every week for the community.
    Some retailers are knowingly selling overpowered guns. The authorities know & still nothing has been done. I'm sick of the double standards.
    The worst part is, most of the community know whom these retailers are, but instead of boycotting them, the community continue to buy.
    The community need to set the rules, not the IAA, the retailers or venues, the players need to set the rules. We as a community need to make a stand.

    That would be a great idea Rhino, the only problem is that you would have to get everyone to pay the sign up fee (which they should) and a lot of people would say no!

    On a side note, we at The Warehouse don't buy off certain retailers because of their reputation so we are rite there with you brother!


  • #103
    JonAnderton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭JonAnderton


    iceage wrote: »
    :D My first skirmish!!!! I was protecting the kid, using my body as a shield!! Shot in the back like a dog!!

    Maybe thats why paintball works really well, you can't miss the big blobs of red gloss all over your face :P

    In fairness, the tumble roll in the high grass (whether after taking a hit or avoiding getting one, was impressive, and almost in slow motion)...:D

    Out of interest, for the sites, how many one time only people attened the sites... ie, non members, non regulars... just the odd time? and of these, how many abide by the code of ethics?

    ps. I nominate Iceage to be the inaugral name on the Great Banning Blacklist Database of Ireland)


  • #104
    iceage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭iceage


    Boroimhe wrote: »
    That would be a great idea Rhino, the only problem is that you would have to get everyone to pay the sign up fee (which they should) and a lot of people would say no!

    On a side note, we at The Warehouse don't buy off certain retailers because of their reputation so we are rite there with you brother!

    Its a tenner now FFS, thats less than a bottle of bb's and a bag of chips :P (meant in the nicest possible way!)


  • #105
    N.O.I.P.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭N.O.I.P.


    Boroimhe wrote: »
    Our overheads are 16 times that of other sites and we do it! We are the site that it is not a financially viable option for but we still do it. Thats not a dig at other site, just my honest to god opinion!

    Its not really comparing like and like though is it. The warehouse is comparitively small (when compared to some of the larger outdoor sites) requiring fewer marshalls and you have a tower (apparently, havent managed to get out to you guys so far) which provides a greater field of view and also cuts down on the amount of marshalls required. Outdoor sites would require a much larger number of marshalls and if they are all employees I would imagine the running costs would be crippling. Anyway each sites finances are their own business. Having all marshalls on a site be employees holds no particular advantage in my opinion.
    Abuse?

    Relax its a Ghostbusters quote man :D


  • #106
    Boroimhe
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    Rite lads as I have said I have pm'd a lot of site owners so what we have to do now is wait and see if they want to sign up to this system. If they do I will post who signed up and start organizing it and sure if not what can we do!


  • #107
    fayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭fayer


    OzCam wrote: »
    We need to get an opinion from fayer, if we can drag him out from under the pile of books, about the legal issues (slander/libel etc) of doing a name-and-shame.

    He is buried under a pile of books at the moment and should not be reading boards :(

    I have looked into the legal requirements of sports disciplinary sub-committees before and reviewed other ones from different sports. It can be done, but be under no illusion, it requires more than a large amount of work and people who don't mind having their processes and actions being reviewed in court and taking the consequences of that, to stand up and put their names to it.

    But hell, If soccer can do it I'm sure we can :D


  • #108
    Boroimhe
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    N.O.I.P. wrote: »
    Its not really comparing like and like though is it. The warehouse is comparitively small (when compared to some of the larger outdoor sites) requiring fewer marshalls and you have a tower (apparently, havent managed to get out to you guys so far) which provides a greater field of view and also cuts down on the amount of marshalls required. Outdoor sites would require a much larger number of marshalls and if they are all employees I would imagine the running costs would be crippling. Anyway each sites finances are their own business. Having all marshalls on a site be employees holds no particular advantage in my opinion.

    I know but the amount of funds available to outdoor sites due to minimal expenses leaves a lot of money for part time marshalls.. I know this for a fact because I own a site and understand the whole incomings/outcomings buzz!

    We have four part time marshalls that we pay every week to make sure we have enough eyes out there!
    N.O.I.P. wrote: »
    Relax its a Ghostbusters quote man :D

    Cool!


  • #109
    iceage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭iceage


    JonAnderton wrote: »
    In fairness, the tumble roll in the high grass (whether after taking a hit or avoiding getting one, was impressive, and almost in slow motion)...:D

    Out of interest, for the sites, how many one time only people attened the sites... ie, non members, non regulars... just the odd time? and of these, how many abide by the code of ethics?

    ps. I nominate Iceage to be the inaugral name on the Great Banning Blacklist Database of Ireland)

    Seconded!!! Waaaaaaaaaaayyy, first on the list! :cool:

    I was a Noob, didn't know any better.

    The swat roll was really a cover up for falling over the fence! falling with style I like to call it.


  • #110
    Boroimhe
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭Boroimhe


    fayer wrote: »
    He is buried under a pile of books at the moment and should not be reading boards :(

    I have looked into the legal requirements of sports disciplinary sub-committees before and reviewed other ones from different sports. It can be done, but be under no illusion, it requires more than a large amount of work and people who don't mind having their processes and actions being reviewed in court and taking the consequences of that, to stand up and put their names to it.

    But hell, If soccer can do it I'm sure we can :D

    We have no problem facing the consequences and no problem with the extra work load Steve, sure we work here 7 days a week anyway.

    It has to be done so lets do it, can I ask your opinion on the matter?


  • #111
    fayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 913 ✭✭✭fayer


    Boroimhe wrote: »
    We have no problem facing the consequences and no problem with the extra work load Steve, sure we work here 7 days a week anyway.

    It has to be done so lets do it, can I ask your opinion on the matter?

    My personal opinion is that site bans will be what brings the rule breakers into line and resolve many of the issues we are having.

    When people start to see they do not have anywhere to play they will change their tune.

    As per the requirements on how to set something like this up and not have you skirmishing in bankruptcy court after the first Judaical appeal and you are sued into the next credit crunch, that is best discussed round table as you are talking about more paperwork than a small rain forest can produce :eek:


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  • #112
    The Warehouse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


    fayer wrote: »
    My personal opinion is that site bans will be what brings the rule breakers into line and resolve many of the issues we are having.

    When people start to see they do not have anywhere to play they will change their tune.

    As per the requirements on how to set something like this up and not have you skirmishing in bankruptcy court after the first Judaical appeal and you are sued into the next credit crunch, that is best discussed round table as you are talking about more paperwork than a small rain forest can produce :eek:

    We bow to he who knows, any help you guys want to set this up is offered as I'm sure it will be from other sites and retailers!


  • #113
    BioHazRd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭BioHazRd


    IMO this thread is long overdue.

    I won't mention non-hit taking as I feel it has been well covered, and I really can't add any improvements to docs suggestions. However, my big issue is hot guns. I have two functioning eyes, and I would dearly like it to be that way for many years to come.
    I know chronoing of guns is on the increase, but i want to see it everywhere and at all times.
    I have heard anecdotally (yes i know it's hearsay and means nothing) of people getting one gun chronoed then going back to their car to pull out their real playing gun. I have heard of and seen for myself, people turning their hop up to make their gun pass the chrono test. People who knowingly do this, as far as I am concerned, are commiting the crime of assault every time they hit somebody with a BB - and as such have no place in our sport. I have a few suggestions on how this may be tackled.
    • all guns to be chronoed prior to gaming with the hop verified as off. Any guns that come in hot be verified on a second chrono in order to rule out chrono error. Any gun that then comes in as hot - player is told they cant play with it, and the players name and gun type / model noted. Player advised to go back to retailer where the gun was bought for downgrade (or in the case they upgraded it themselves, they are told to rectify it). If cross checking reveals same player and gun model showed as hot previously - they are barred.
    • random spot checking of guns throughout the day. Anyone who doesn't agree to a random spot check to be advised they risk being barred unless they comply. Any players found to be playing with guns that were not presented for initial chrono testing ar barred


    It may seem harsh to be passing out barrings for this, but as far as I am concerned, if an injury happens, it is already too late.


    I for one will refuse to play against anyone else who is using a gun that has a power above 1 joule. If my team mates support me in this – that is potentially 6/7 guys walking up to a site owner looking for our money back. We can make this sport safe an enjoyable for all – we just have to make sure there is no leeway – rules are rules, limits are limits


    • #114
      The Warehouse
      Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭The Warehouse


      BioHazRd wrote: »
      IMO this thread is long overdue.

      I won't mention non-hit taking as I feel it has been well covered, and I really can't add any improvements to docs suggestions. However, my big issue is hot guns. I have two functioning eyes, and I would dearly like it to be that way for many years to come.
      I know chronoing of guns is on the increase, but i want to see it everywhere and at all times.
      I have heard anecdotally (yes i know it's hearsay and means nothing) of people getting one gun chronoed then going back to their car to pull out their real playing gun. I have heard of and seen for myself, people turning their hop up to make their gun pass the chrono test. People who knowingly do this, as far as I am concerned, are commiting the crime of assault every time they hit somebody with a BB - and as such have no place in our sport. I have a few suggestions on how this may be tackled.
      • all guns to be chronoed prior to gaming with the hop verified as off. Any guns that come in hot be verified on a second chrono in order to rule out chrono error. Any gun that then comes in as hot - player is told they cant play with it, and the players name and gun type / model noted. Player advised to go back to retailer where the gun was bought for downgrade (or in the case they upgraded it themselves, they are told to rectify it). If cross checking reveals same player and gun model showed as hot previously - they are barred.
      • random spot checking of guns throughout the day. Anyone who doesn't agree to a random spot check to be advised they risk being barred unless they comply. Any players found to be playing with guns that were not presented for initial chrono testing ar barred


      It may seem harsh to be passing out barrings for this, but as far as I am concerned, if an injury happens, it is already too late.


      I for one will refuse to play against anyone else who is using a gun that has a power above 1 joule. If my team mates support me in this – that is potentially 6/7 guys walking up to a site owner looking for our money back. We can make this sport safe an enjoyable for all – we just have to make sure there is no leeway – rules are rules, limits are limits

      We completely agree Bio, well said!


    • #115
      Gatling
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


      have to say things have got bad ,

      skirmished for the 1st time in ages there 2 weeks ago ,
      seen some of the worst cases of non hit taking ever , really ruined a best part of a day ,

      marshals dont have it easy and never had , but i think sites needs to start looking at who they use and how they actuly work ,

      not being bad no point having a marshal who has no intrest in marshaling in the first place and only do it for the few quid just to stand around looking at people playing ,

      the sites have a responsibility to ensure hot guns arent being used and that cheats arent allowed to do what they like on sites ,
      for to long we have a oh there mates of so and so ,
      or they come in numbers so they can do what they like ,

      if cheats are playing on a site then if there not acted on by the sites then avoid the sites , publicy state the site and the complain that wasnt acted on ,
      if cheats are on the field walk off , and publicly show your displease ,if they cant play with honour and with in all the rules they dont belong in our community
      360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




    • #116
      Rhinocharge
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,348 ✭✭✭Rhinocharge


      ^^ agree completely.


    • #117
      TheDoc
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


      I think this is the first thread in months, which is a debate, where everyone is really on the same note and side,

      Seems the only debate here is how to go about doing it.

      but I'm glad to see its not just me that does be fuming about the situation.

      At the end of the day it is our sport, and we make it how we want it.

      Being so young as it is, its best to weed out this cheating and hot gun scene not, rather then later when it can potentially be much larger.


    • #118
      Dread-Lock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭Dread-Lock


      Lethal_Bullet wrote: »
      Last point, and I know other disagree with it, but I strongly beleive in hidden player marshalls. Each site has a big enough weekly bunch so that they could select well known honest players descretely but let the entire group know that they are in game. They shouldnt have to do anything, the fact that they are silently watching should be enough, and if needs be they could call in cheaters via radio allowing them to stay unknown while the marshalls repremand the problematic players.

      I actually really like this idea, as people might be to afraid to cheat as the person crouching two feet from them could be a marshall.

      Although what might be an idea is to use physiological warfare and just say there are hidden marshalls in the game. As it would basically be the same thing, the cheater wouldn't know if a marshall is two feet from him or if he even exists.


    • #119
      Puding
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭Puding


      i have to agree nice to see airsoft growing in small way, if somone had brought ( and they did ) the hot aeg issue up 6 months ago the responce was rather differant.

      There is no excuse for it be that from a site or a shop. Testing should not be an option or the exception but the norm, i've personaly had to tell people they could not play with an aeg 5fps over, i know its not easy but for me there is no compromise.


    • #120
      Gatling
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


      no dont agree with hidden marshals ,if people are worried ny hi vis marshals then hidden marshals wont bother them.

      we need proper marshals who can make a call and stand by it and not be swayed by mates , teams mates, or threats

      a marshal should be proactive and yet not interfere with the flow of a game ,
      the majority of people just want to turn up and play ,having marshaled for a fair amount of time , it was never easy getting someone to take over marshaling for 20 mins while getting a hot drink
      360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    • #121
      gerrowadat
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭gerrowadat


      Dread-Lock wrote: »
      I actually really like this idea, as people might be to afraid to cheat as the person crouching two feet from them could be a marshall.

      Although what might be an idea is to use physiological warfare and just say there are hidden marshalls in the game. As it would basically be the same thing, the cheater wouldn't know if a marshall is two feet from him or if he even exists.

      This kind of disavows other players from the responsibility of calling out cheaters though. ALL players should be hidden marshals.

      I've personally called out lads on my own side a few times in a skirmish because I saw them hit. Got a few dirty looks and a bit of abuse for that, but if you ask me, cheater checking begins with the players. True sportsmanship is caring who wins, but caring more that the game is played fairly, honourably and with respect.


    • #122
      Dread-Lock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭Dread-Lock


      Gatling wrote: »
      no dont agree with hidden marshals ,if people are worried ny hi vis marshals then hidden marshals wont bother them.

      we need proper marshals who can make a call and stand by it and not be swayed by mates , teams mates, or threats

      a marshal should be proactive and yet not interfere with the flow of a game ,
      the majority of people just want to turn up and play ,having marshaled for a fair amount of time , it was never easy getting someone to take over marshaling for 20 mins while getting a hot drink

      I by no means think it will stop cheating, but it might help cut it down a little. And every little helps, right?


    • #123
      Hivemind187
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


      gerrowadat wrote: »
      This kind of disavows other players from the responsibility of calling out cheaters though. ALL players should be hidden marshals.

      I've personally called out lads on my own side a few times in a skirmish because I saw them hit. Got a few dirty looks and a bit of abuse for that, but if you ask me, cheater checking begins with the players. True sportsmanship is caring who wins, but caring more that the game is played fairly, honourably and with respect.

      +1


    • #124
      hrta
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 869 ✭✭✭hrta


      Before we start any thing, i'd say the first thing we need to do is set up a marshalls course, and get them certified, so every one is singing from the same hymm sheet.


    • #125
      Gatling
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


      fully agree paul proper certified marshals is great idea ,
      maybe we can get the marshal committee back up and running,
      id sign up to any course even if theres costs involved
      360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




    • #126
      G3-Nut
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭G3-Nut


      Gatling wrote: »
      fully agree paul proper certified marshals is great idea ,
      maybe we can get the marshal committee back up and running,
      id sign up to any course even if theres costs involved


      Yeah same here, in the south east airsoft club we are gonna have all of our marshalls IAA certified...


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    • #127
      Dread-Lock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭Dread-Lock


      gerrowadat wrote: »
      This kind of disavows other players from the responsibility of calling out cheaters though. ALL players should be hidden marshals.

      I've personally called out lads on my own side a few times in a skirmish because I saw them hit. Got a few dirty looks and a bit of abuse for that, but if you ask me, cheater checking begins with the players. True sportsmanship is caring who wins, but caring more that the game is played fairly, honourably and with respect.

      I suppose your right, well it seemed like a good idea at first.

      And I myself am more then happy to point out to other people that they have been hit (And more then happy to walk back to respawn if I'm told :)).


    • #128
      Bernie Mac
      Closed Accounts Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Bernie Mac


      with all due respects lads a coursed designed to train marshals can only help a little bit. as it was said earlier in the thread the marshal can only call what they see. the worst thing i have found from marshalling is when you have people screaming at you that one person isnt calling their hits.

      If anybody ever has a problem they should approach the marshal say in a peaceful and discrete manner that there is somebody not calling hits. its makes everything alot easier on everyone and you dont have this craic of people screaming and getting extremly aggressive. I think one method would be to ask to take a picture of non hit takers and stick it up on a wall of same for all to see at a site if they come back have a marshal stand beside them its gives everyon an idea of who isnt callling hits.

      On the hot gun thing it is a case sometimes that aegs and gbbs are chronoed and then at lunch people bring their gear to their car, quick spring change and away u go....the only way to stop this is for spot chrono checks and if they are over to ban them from the site.


    • #129
      Shiva
      Closed Accounts Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭Shiva


      Disregarding the cheating issue for a minute, not because its not important (it is !), but because I have nothing to add that hasnt already been very well covered....I think the hot guns situation will go away soon.

      Lets not forget the forthcoming Miscellaneous Provisions Bill, which we're told will oblige airsoft sites and retailers to be licensed, and quite possibly ban personal imports of airsoft devices.

      Although there are a great many players out there who are only too happy to look for and use hot guns, the reason they do so is because some sites encourage people to play with over-powered guns, and some retailers knowingly supply them as a matter of course.

      If a site or retailer needs to be licensed in order to operate, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to risk that licence by encouraging or allowing the use of hot guns, or selling them. And if they are stupid enough ? Well, if the government is going to force me to jump through hoops to licence my business, you can bet your ass I'll be pretty bloody insistent that those who dont follow the letter of the law are, if not prosecuted, then at least have their license to operate revoked.

      I'm sick and tired of people coming into Eirsoft, asking for us to upgrade their gun past the limit "so I can play at site x", and when being told no, they openly tell me where they're going to go to get the job done, and for how much.

      Rather than waste time chasing players who use hot guns, lets concentrate our resources on stamping out the retailers and sites who knowingly supply them and allow them to be used.


    • #130
      Bernie Mac
      Closed Accounts Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Bernie Mac


      Shiva wrote: »
      Disregarding the cheating issue for a minute, not because its not important (it is !), but because I have nothing to add that hasnt already been very well covered....I think the hot guns situation will go away soon.

      Lets not forget the forthcoming Miscellaneous Provisions Bill, which we're told will oblige airsoft sites and retailers to be licensed, and quite possibly ban personal imports of airsoft devices.

      Although there are a great many players out there who are only too happy to look for and use hot guns, the reason they do so is because some sites encourage people to play with over-powered guns, and some retailers knowingly supply them as a matter of course.

      If a site or retailer needs to be licensed in order to operate, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to risk that licence by encouraging or allowing the use of hot guns, or selling them. And if they are stupid enough ? Well, if the government is going to force me to jump through hoops to licence my business, you can bet your ass I'll be pretty bloody insistent that those who dont follow the letter of the law are, if not prosecuted, then at least have their license to operate revoked.

      I'm sick and tired of people coming into Eirsoft, asking for us to upgrade their gun past the limit "so I can play at site x", and when being told no, they openly tell me where they're going to go to get the job done, and for how much.

      Rather than waste time chasing players who use hot guns, lets concentrate our resources on stamping out the retailers and sites who knowingly supply them and allow them to be used.

      +1 in agreement :D


    • #131
      iceage
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭iceage


      So who do I PM to find out the name of the team with the 70% not hit taking, and the 20% with hot pieces?


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    • #132
      Busta Hyman
      Closed Accounts Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Busta Hyman


      k99_64 wrote: »
      I always take the hits i feel ( in the warehouse much to the annoyance of team-mate and surprise of a marshal "How did ya get hit from there!!?"). Once i didnt feel the shots and i apologized to the player and the Marshall.


      the WH is a head wrecker with that. there are a few spots that i have been hit in the back at what feels like point blank only to turn around and be looking at a menacingly equiped wall


    • #133
      Dread-Lock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭Dread-Lock


      Busta Hyman wrote: »
      the WH is a head wrecker with that. there are a few spots that i have been hit in the back at what feels like point blank only to turn around and be looking at a menacingly equiped wall

      All I can think of now is a brick wall holding an AK47 screaming "GIVE ME YOUR WALLET"...
      :D:D:D


    • #134
      Busta Hyman
      Closed Accounts Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Busta Hyman


      Dread-Lock wrote: »
      All I can think of now is a brick wall holding an AK47 screaming "GIVE ME YOUR WALLET"...
      :D:D:D


      no ak m8 it had bricks


    • #135
      OzCam
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


      Does anyone know how much those little tamper-evident stickers cost?

      If we could get all the responsible sites to agree, it should be possible to seal an AEG when it passes a chrono test, and then have it accepted everywhere else until the sticker is torn. That would significantly reduce the amount of testing required.

      Obviously there may be some guns where it's possible to increase the velocity without disassembling the gun and tearing a sticker. Also, it would still be necessary to do spot checks. If your gun has to be taken apart for fixing you'll have to have it sealed again, and so on. But it might be worth investigating. It's got to be quicker than chronoing every gun, every time.


    • #136
      Dread-Lock
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭Dread-Lock


      OzCam wrote: »
      Does anyone know how much those little tamper-evident stickers cost?

      If we could get all the responsible sites to agree, it should be possible to seal an AEG when it passes a chrono test, and then have it accepted everywhere else until the sticker is torn. That would significantly reduce the amount of testing required.

      Obviously there may be some guns where it's possible to increase the velocity without disassembling the gun and tearing a sticker. Also, it would still be necessary to do spot checks. If your gun has to be taken apart for fixing you'll have to have it sealed again, and so on. But it might be worth investigating. It's got to be quicker than chronoing every gun, every time.

      I'd say it would get torn very easily during a skirmish. And TBH I don't think chronoing guns takes all the much time or effort.

      Last Saturday at HRTA everyone of my guns were chrono'd, sidearm, backup the works. That was done in under 2 minutes. And that includes me have to run back load up my backup and run back. And trust me I'm not the fastest runner :P.


    • #137
      Hivemind187
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


      Dread-Lock wrote: »
      I'd say it would get torn very easily during a skirmish. And TBH I don't think chronoing guns takes all the much time or effort.

      Last Saturday at HRTA everyone of my guns were chrono'd, sidearm, backup the works. That was done in under 2 minutes. And that includes me have to run back load up my backup and run back. And trust me I'm not the fastest runner :P.

      Exactly, so long as people pull their finger out and stop gabbing in the safe zone you can get through the chrono check fairly quickly. 20 minutes is all it takes for as many people on a good day (give or take five-ten minutes for the odd numpty).


    • #138
      OzCam
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


      Dread-Lock wrote: »
      Last Saturday at HRTA everyone of my guns were chrono'd, sidearm, backup the works. That was done in under 2 minutes.

      Yes, but 2 minutes per player multiplied by 40 players is a long time.

      I'm not saying it's a trivial thing to do, just that it's worth a look. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It's basically the same rationale as those plastic seals on fire extinguishers - you don't have to do a full discharge & refill every time you want to check them.

      Oh, and those seals are available in black if stickers are too fragile. Where there's a will, there's a way.


    • #139
      Spetzcong
      Closed Accounts Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Spetzcong


      [DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »
      You knwo I'm one for second chances.

      I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

      He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

      You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

      The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

      If a blacklist happens.

      Step 1:
      Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
      Stept 2:
      player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
      Step 3:
      If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
      Step 4:
      This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

      This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
      Step 5:
      Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

      Step 6:
      Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
      Step 7:
      See step 5
      Step 8:
      Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

      Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

      Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

      Nice idea, gives people the opportunity to mend their ways but is still firm enough to ensure justice for those of us who don't cheat, how about, in addition to the above, sites start up a wall of shame, where anyone who reaches stage 3 or who trys to play with a hot gun (gun chronoing hot not included, as mistakes do happen, ecpecially if you don't have yer own chrono, but deliberately trying to play with an illegal gun) gets their photo taken and put up for two weeks so the rest of the community can see who they are, being shamed like that in front of the community might be an added incentive for people to play by the rules and obey the law. Plus I don't think there'd be legal issues with it, as some shops do similar things with people caught shoplifting.


    • #140
      Spetzcong
      Closed Accounts Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Spetzcong


      iceage wrote: »
      So who do I PM to find out the name of the team with the 70% not hit taking, and the 20% with hot pieces?

      I think most people who regularly game in the Dublin area could hazard a guess at that, I have a fair idea and I'd be surprised if I was wrong.


    • #141
      FingalAirsoft
      Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭FingalAirsoft


      Boroimhe wrote: »
      Our overheads are 16 times that of other sites and we do it! We are the site that it is not a financially viable option for but we still do it. Thats not a dig at other site, just my honest to god opinion!



      Abuse?

      I would say that is well off the mark there Brian, indecently did you thank yourself for your first post (i.e. thanked from The Warehouse and AON):p:p:D;)

      Right we at Fingal Airsoft would sign up to a database but there would have to be a strict procedure to follow to determine an actual cheater, as there would be many variables involved... i.e.

      1. The level of marshal’s knowledge of the game and experience...
      2. What was the instance of cheating? Is said player a noob or regular skirmisher?
      3. How many warnings did said player get before he was removed from the site?
      4. Also a player that cheats at 1 site and is asked to leave, might change his ways and not cheat at another?
      5. Has the said player have a right to defend himself if he/she feels they were unfairly victimised by a marshal for whatever reason, or for that matter have a right to appeal the decision of the marshal or site owner?
      On the matter of hot AEG's:
      As a site owner myself as every other site owner would testify to this is an ongoing issue that we are all trying to address. I have seen AEG's chrono'ed at my site that come in under the 1J limit and for them to be transported to another site in the boot of a car for them to chrono over the limit??

      There are IMHO too many variables as to why this could happen that has been discussed at great lengths on many other threads in this forum and others.

      On the matter of hot AEG's that has been blatantly tampered with or switched to fool an organiser of an event or site owner that needs to be an instant ban across all sites.
      Anything that chrono's above 330fps (taking into account the variables of weather, temperature or humidity) on a spot check after an initial chrono at the start of a game or match should be deemed blatant attempt of cheating or trying to cheat the chrono regulations and the law!


      My 2 cents.


      Bren


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    • #142
      FingalAirsoft
      Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭FingalAirsoft


      Originally Posted by [DM]-TheDOC- viewpost.gif
      You knwo I'm one for second chances.

      I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

      He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

      You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

      The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

      If a blacklist happens.

      Step 1:
      Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
      Stept 2:
      player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
      Step 3:
      If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
      Step 4:
      This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

      This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
      Step 5:
      Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

      Step 6:
      Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
      Step 7:
      See step 5
      Step 8:
      Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

      Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

      Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

      Now were on the right track, well done.;);) this is a solution right here!


    • #143
      hrta
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 869 ✭✭✭hrta


      The best thing for hot guns is to have them all set to 315 fps, that way the wether on some days, wont get you put off a site, for being over the limt.


    • #144
      Masada
      Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Masada


      OzCam wrote: »
      Does anyone know how much those little tamper-evident stickers cost?

      If we could get all the responsible sites to agree, it should be possible to seal an AEG when it passes a chrono test, and then have it accepted everywhere else until the sticker is torn. That would significantly reduce the amount of testing required.

      Obviously there may be some guns where it's possible to increase the velocity without disassembling the gun and tearing a sticker. Also, it would still be necessary to do spot checks. If your gun has to be taken apart for fixing you'll have to have it sealed again, and so on. But it might be worth investigating. It's got to be quicker than chronoing every gun, every time.

      Theres a couple of issues with that though,
      firstly, you have to ask how many people will be issuing these sitckers and whats the chances of them being attached without chrono'ing, or even worse, not caring about the chrono reading.

      Then theres the fact that it can get damaged. The one thing that would annoy me though is the fact that i would have to keep getting new stickers all the time since i modify my guns a lot.

      Theres also the likes of the Star guns that use quick release springs and you cant really seal them up, also gas rifles that run on 134a. Just by gassing this with green gas it will be over the limit.


      I know it is an inconvience to have the guns chrono'd all the time and they dont always get checked, but this is a sport based on the honour system after all and i think a site should be able to trust a person to be legal, maybe even just their regulars that they know and they can chrono the people they dont recognise or just people who havent had a chrono already. If someone gets caught over the limit they get banned for a month or something. no excuses, no exceptions.
      Ignorance is no excuse so don't give in to them when they give the usual storys of "ahh, i borrowed it from me mate" etc etc.

      Chrono's are small enough for a marshal to bring around with him during the game and he can pull up any player at any time and chrono his gun then and there, mid game. this is the best thing to do since there are some crafty bastards out there that are bringing in one rifle for chrono'ing and then switching them in the boot of the car later on and playing with the hot ones.


    • #145
      Gatling
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


      its time the sites stop being so trusting and start enforcing the rules and the law ,
      its a business first then a skirmish site 2nd,
      its like a shop giving aegs on credit cause its an honour sport ,dont worry pay me when ever you can i know you skirmish once a week ,
      I DONT THINK SO ,

      aegs should be chronoed every time you sign in and out ,if needs be use the cable ties used to secure trucks on the reciever throught the trigger guard to prevent guns being upgraded or switched during play,
      aegs dont leave the safe zone during breaks once signed in and chronoed ,they stay in a cabin until after lunch , put a marshal in the car parks to make sure people arent changing a spring or other

      a code of conduct added to the sign in sheet caught with a hot aeg or repated cheating perma banned , repeatly caught with hot aegs then persons details should be passed on to the relevent authories,
      cheat non hit taking or other'
      punish the indivdual, if there on a team punish the team too, captains have a responsibity for the teams behaviour

      public naming and shaming at sites when caught its stated why the person is being banned and why ,tough love ,

      pussyfooting or kid glove approach about what to do wont work ,either take and make a stand against cheats -or stop complaining if your not willing to make a strand,
      360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




    • #146
      Masada
      Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Masada


      Gatling wrote: »
      its time the sites stop being so trusting and start enforcing the rules and the law ,
      its a business first then a skirmish site 2nd,
      its like a shop giving aegs on credit cause its an honour sport ,dont worry pay me when ever you can i know you skirmish once a week ,
      I DONT THINK SO ,

      That is probably the most far fetched comparason i have ever read, fact.


      As for the rest, There is no point in bringing in more new rules when we are too laxidaisy with the rules we have already. Its not like their getting through in a loophole, they are breaking the rules and not suffering the consequences.


    • #147
      OzCam
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


      Oh all right then, it was worth a try at least.

      I do feel that we should be doing more spot checks though. One practical way to do this would be for a marshal to set up at a regen point and check the next, say, 5 players to come in. Then move to another point some time later in the day and do 5 players for the other team. Be unpredictable as to where and when you're setting up a checkpoint, but it will also be fair because the players will arrive at random.

      Also chrono at random during game breaks and whenever a gun is suspect. At lunchtime, pick a camo-of-the-day and check everyone wearing it, or pick Armalites, or AKs, or Steyrs or whatever.

      To have a deterrent effect, it doesn't need to happen all the time, just be unpredictable and be a constant background thought.

      Security is a process, not an event.


    • #148
      Hivemind187
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


      OzCam wrote: »
      Oh all right then, it was worth a try at least.

      I do feel that we should be doing more spot checks though. One practical way to do this would be for a marshal to set up at a regen point and check the next, say, 5 players to come in. Then move to another point some time later in the day and do 5 players for the other team. Be unpredictable as to where and when you're setting up a checkpoint, but it will also be fair because the players will arrive at random.

      Also chrono at random during game breaks and whenever a gun is suspect. At lunchtime, pick a camo-of-the-day and check everyone wearing it, or pick Armalites, or AKs, or Steyrs or whatever.

      To have a deterrent effect, it doesn't need to happen all the time, just be unpredictable and be a constant background thought.

      Security is a process, not an event.

      Are we to breathalyze players to?

      Seriously? Checkpoints?

      Marshalls have enough to do without having to set up locations for spot-checking guns. Who is to be keeping an eye on the game being played while the checks are happening? Human resources are low on any airsoft field.

      I can see marshalls carrying a chrono with them for quick checks but there would need to be a degree of common sense used due to the varying conditions encountered even moving around a field (not the doppler effect!).

      I can also see players getring pissed off having to re-set their hop-unit again after the start-of-day chrono. Or worse, people demanding someone gets a spot check just to take them out of play for a moment.


    • #149
      Dr_Pepper
      Closed Accounts Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Dr_Pepper


      hrta wrote: »
      The best thing for hot guns is to have them all set to 315 fps, that way the wether on some days, wont get you put off a site, for being over the limt.

      I for one love this idea.
      I set all my guns to 300fps MAX with a .2g bb.


    • #150
      OzCam
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


      Hivemind187 wrote: »
      Are we to breathalyze players to?

      Seriously? Checkpoints?

      Marshalls have enough to do without having to set up locations for spot-checking guns.

      No, I didn't mean all this should happen on the same day, just that there are many ways to do spot checks randomly and fairly. If they're not perceived as fair they can be counterproductive. I'd suggest that it's a better idea than the hanging and flogging that some people would like to see.

      You can't fairly take players out of the middle of a game. If someone is giving rise to suspicion they can be checked the next time they regen. If you have two marshals, one can keep an eye on the game while the other does some checks for a few minutes. Yes, it'll mess up the hop adjustment, but resetting that takes no more time than changing a battery or refilling mags. It's not a huge extra imposition into playing time. If a site can have a staff member standing at a chrono for an hour, the players can put up with being inconvenienced for a few minutes once in a while.

      We absolutely need more marshals, of course. But we need some more random checks too.


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    • #151
      Hivemind187
      Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


      OzCam wrote: »
      No, I didn't mean all this should happen on the same day, just that there are many ways to do spot checks randomly and fairly. If they're not perceived as fair they can be counterproductive. I'd suggest that it's a better idea than the hanging and flogging that some people would like to see.

      You can't fairly take players out of the middle of a game. If someone is giving rise to suspicion they can be checked the next time they regen. If you have two marshals, one can keep an eye on the game while the other does some checks for a few minutes. Yes, it'll mess up the hop adjustment, but resetting that takes no more time than changing a battery or refilling mags. It's not a huge extra imposition into playing time. If a site can have a staff member standing at a chrono for an hour, the players can put up with being inconvenienced for a few minutes once in a while.

      We absolutely need more marshals, of course. But we need some more random checks too.

      Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation though.

      On the one hand everyone is screaming about cheaters. On the other they are screaming about hot guns.

      On both counts marshals and venues get it in the neck for this kind of behavior when the fact is that they are doing the best they can with the limited resources available. 90% of people complaining are the same people who arent offering to give up their time to see things improve.

      It's laughable really, airsoft has only been around in the republic since August 2006. It's not even three years old yet. This kind of thing is just teething issues, stuff that gets sorted out through trial, error and most importantly the efforts of those who wish to see change.

      If you have two marshalls on the field and one is sitting in a respawn to chrono kit that means you have only 1 pair of eyes watching the show. Give that five minutes and you'll start hearing people screaming "Take your ****ing hits you horrible ****!" (and thats a quote). Once people start that kind of thing it spreads like cancer and every starts to assume that anything they shoot at they hit.

      Only about 1 in 5 calls of someone not taking their hits has been accurate from my perspective (usually standaing 2-3 feet behind the accused). In most cases its the drop of the BB and the end of its flight path that is confusing to the shooter (there is a scientific word for this but I can't remember it).

      There is no argument that cheating goes on but I dont see setting up chrono check points as being the answer without a) more marshals and b) players with far more patience.


    This discussion has been closed.
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