Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

Dread-Lock

Gatling wrote: »

no dont agree with hidden marshals ,if people are worried ny hi vis marshals then hidden marshals wont bother them.

we need proper marshals who can make a call and stand by it and not be swayed by mates , teams mates, or threats

a marshal should be proactive and yet not interfere with the flow of a game ,
the majority of people just want to turn up and play ,having marshaled for a fair amount of time , it was never easy getting someone to take over marshaling for 20 mins while getting a hot drink

I by no means think it will stop cheating, but it might help cut it down a little. And every little helps, right?

Hivemind187

gerrowadat wrote: »

This kind of disavows other players from the responsibility of calling out cheaters though. ALL players should be hidden marshals.

I've personally called out lads on my own side a few times in a skirmish because I saw them hit. Got a few dirty looks and a bit of abuse for that, but if you ask me, cheater checking begins with the players. True sportsmanship is caring who wins, but caring more that the game is played fairly, honourably and with respect.

+1

hrta

Before we start any thing, i'd say the first thing we need to do is set up a marshalls course, and get them certified, so every one is singing from the same hymm sheet.

Gatling

fully agree paul proper certified marshals is great idea ,
maybe we can get the marshal committee back up and running,
id sign up to any course even if theres costs involved

G3-Nut

Gatling wrote: »

fully agree paul proper certified marshals is great idea ,
maybe we can get the marshal committee back up and running,
id sign up to any course even if theres costs involved

Yeah same here, in the south east airsoft club we are gonna have all of our marshalls IAA certified...

Dread-Lock

gerrowadat wrote: »

This kind of disavows other players from the responsibility of calling out cheaters though. ALL players should be hidden marshals.

I've personally called out lads on my own side a few times in a skirmish because I saw them hit. Got a few dirty looks and a bit of abuse for that, but if you ask me, cheater checking begins with the players. True sportsmanship is caring who wins, but caring more that the game is played fairly, honourably and with respect.

I suppose your right, well it seemed like a good idea at first.

And I myself am more then happy to point out to other people that they have been hit (And more then happy to walk back to respawn if I'm told ).

Bernie Mac

with all due respects lads a coursed designed to train marshals can only help a little bit. as it was said earlier in the thread the marshal can only call what they see. the worst thing i have found from marshalling is when you have people screaming at you that one person isnt calling their hits.

If anybody ever has a problem they should approach the marshal say in a peaceful and discrete manner that there is somebody not calling hits. its makes everything alot easier on everyone and you dont have this craic of people screaming and getting extremly aggressive. I think one method would be to ask to take a picture of non hit takers and stick it up on a wall of same for all to see at a site if they come back have a marshal stand beside them its gives everyon an idea of who isnt callling hits.

On the hot gun thing it is a case sometimes that aegs and gbbs are chronoed and then at lunch people bring their gear to their car, quick spring change and away u go....the only way to stop this is for spot chrono checks and if they are over to ban them from the site.

Shiva

Disregarding the cheating issue for a minute, not because its not important (it is !), but because I have nothing to add that hasnt already been very well covered....I think the hot guns situation will go away soon.

Lets not forget the forthcoming Miscellaneous Provisions Bill, which we're told will oblige airsoft sites and retailers to be licensed, and quite possibly ban personal imports of airsoft devices.

Although there are a great many players out there who are only too happy to look for and use hot guns, the reason they do so is because some sites encourage people to play with over-powered guns, and some retailers knowingly supply them as a matter of course.

If a site or retailer needs to be licensed in order to operate, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to risk that licence by encouraging or allowing the use of hot guns, or selling them. And if they are stupid enough ? Well, if the government is going to force me to jump through hoops to licence my business, you can bet your ass I'll be pretty bloody insistent that those who dont follow the letter of the law are, if not prosecuted, then at least have their license to operate revoked.

I'm sick and tired of people coming into Eirsoft, asking for us to upgrade their gun past the limit "so I can play at site x", and when being told no, they openly tell me where they're going to go to get the job done, and for how much.

Rather than waste time chasing players who use hot guns, lets concentrate our resources on stamping out the retailers and sites who knowingly supply them and allow them to be used.

Bernie Mac

Shiva wrote: »

Disregarding the cheating issue for a minute, not because its not important (it is !), but because I have nothing to add that hasnt already been very well covered....I think the hot guns situation will go away soon.

Lets not forget the forthcoming Miscellaneous Provisions Bill, which we're told will oblige airsoft sites and retailers to be licensed, and quite possibly ban personal imports of airsoft devices.

Although there are a great many players out there who are only too happy to look for and use hot guns, the reason they do so is because some sites encourage people to play with over-powered guns, and some retailers knowingly supply them as a matter of course.

If a site or retailer needs to be licensed in order to operate, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to risk that licence by encouraging or allowing the use of hot guns, or selling them. And if they are stupid enough ? Well, if the government is going to force me to jump through hoops to licence my business, you can bet your ass I'll be pretty bloody insistent that those who dont follow the letter of the law are, if not prosecuted, then at least have their license to operate revoked.

I'm sick and tired of people coming into Eirsoft, asking for us to upgrade their gun past the limit "so I can play at site x", and when being told no, they openly tell me where they're going to go to get the job done, and for how much.

Rather than waste time chasing players who use hot guns, lets concentrate our resources on stamping out the retailers and sites who knowingly supply them and allow them to be used.

+1 in agreement

iceage

So who do I PM to find out the name of the team with the 70% not hit taking, and the 20% with hot pieces?

Busta Hyman

k99_64 wrote: »

I always take the hits i feel ( in the warehouse much to the annoyance of team-mate and surprise of a marshal "How did ya get hit from there!!?"). Once i didnt feel the shots and i apologized to the player and the Marshall.

the WH is a head wrecker with that. there are a few spots that i have been hit in the back at what feels like point blank only to turn around and be looking at a menacingly equiped wall

Dread-Lock

Busta Hyman wrote: »

the WH is a head wrecker with that. there are a few spots that i have been hit in the back at what feels like point blank only to turn around and be looking at a menacingly equiped wall

All I can think of now is a brick wall holding an AK47 screaming "GIVE ME YOUR WALLET"...
:D:D

Busta Hyman

Dread-Lock wrote: »

All I can think of now is a brick wall holding an AK47 screaming "GIVE ME YOUR WALLET"...
:D:D

no ak m8 it had bricks

OzCam

Does anyone know how much those little tamper-evident stickers cost?

If we could get all the responsible sites to agree, it should be possible to seal an AEG when it passes a chrono test, and then have it accepted everywhere else until the sticker is torn. That would significantly reduce the amount of testing required.

Obviously there may be some guns where it's possible to increase the velocity without disassembling the gun and tearing a sticker. Also, it would still be necessary to do spot checks. If your gun has to be taken apart for fixing you'll have to have it sealed again, and so on. But it might be worth investigating. It's got to be quicker than chronoing every gun, every time.

Dread-Lock

OzCam wrote: »

Does anyone know how much those little tamper-evident stickers cost?

If we could get all the responsible sites to agree, it should be possible to seal an AEG when it passes a chrono test, and then have it accepted everywhere else until the sticker is torn. That would significantly reduce the amount of testing required.

Obviously there may be some guns where it's possible to increase the velocity without disassembling the gun and tearing a sticker. Also, it would still be necessary to do spot checks. If your gun has to be taken apart for fixing you'll have to have it sealed again, and so on. But it might be worth investigating. It's got to be quicker than chronoing every gun, every time.

I'd say it would get torn very easily during a skirmish. And TBH I don't think chronoing guns takes all the much time or effort.

Last Saturday at HRTA everyone of my guns were chrono'd, sidearm, backup the works. That was done in under 2 minutes. And that includes me have to run back load up my backup and run back. And trust me I'm not the fastest runner :P.

Hivemind187

Dread-Lock wrote: »

I'd say it would get torn very easily during a skirmish. And TBH I don't think chronoing guns takes all the much time or effort.

Last Saturday at HRTA everyone of my guns were chrono'd, sidearm, backup the works. That was done in under 2 minutes. And that includes me have to run back load up my backup and run back. And trust me I'm not the fastest runner :P.

Exactly, so long as people pull their finger out and stop gabbing in the safe zone you can get through the chrono check fairly quickly. 20 minutes is all it takes for as many people on a good day (give or take five-ten minutes for the odd numpty).

OzCam

Dread-Lock wrote: »

Last Saturday at HRTA everyone of my guns were chrono'd, sidearm, backup the works. That was done in under 2 minutes.

Yes, but 2 minutes per player multiplied by 40 players is a long time.

I'm not saying it's a trivial thing to do, just that it's worth a look. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It's basically the same rationale as those plastic seals on fire extinguishers - you don't have to do a full discharge & refill every time you want to check them.

Oh, and those seals are available in black if stickers are too fragile. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Spetzcong

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

You knwo I'm one for second chances.

I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

If a blacklist happens.

Step 1:
Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
Stept 2:
player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
Step 3:
If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
Step 4:
This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
Step 5:
Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

Step 6:
Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
Step 7:
See step 5
Step 8:
Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

Nice idea, gives people the opportunity to mend their ways but is still firm enough to ensure justice for those of us who don't cheat, how about, in addition to the above, sites start up a wall of shame, where anyone who reaches stage 3 or who trys to play with a hot gun (gun chronoing hot not included, as mistakes do happen, ecpecially if you don't have yer own chrono, but deliberately trying to play with an illegal gun) gets their photo taken and put up for two weeks so the rest of the community can see who they are, being shamed like that in front of the community might be an added incentive for people to play by the rules and obey the law. Plus I don't think there'd be legal issues with it, as some shops do similar things with people caught shoplifting.

Spetzcong

iceage wrote: »

So who do I PM to find out the name of the team with the 70% not hit taking, and the 20% with hot pieces?

I think most people who regularly game in the Dublin area could hazard a guess at that, I have a fair idea and I'd be surprised if I was wrong.

FingalAirsoft

Boroimhe wrote: »

Our overheads are 16 times that of other sites and we do it! We are the site that it is not a financially viable option for but we still do it. Thats not a dig at other site, just my honest to god opinion!



Abuse?

I would say that is well off the mark there Brian, indecently did you thank yourself for your first post (i.e. thanked from The Warehouse and AON):p:p:D;)

Right we at Fingal Airsoft would sign up to a database but there would have to be a strict procedure to follow to determine an actual cheater, as there would be many variables involved... i.e.

1. The level of marshal’s knowledge of the game and experience...
2. What was the instance of cheating? Is said player a noob or regular skirmisher?
3. How many warnings did said player get before he was removed from the site?
4. Also a player that cheats at 1 site and is asked to leave, might change his ways and not cheat at another?
5. Has the said player have a right to defend himself if he/she feels they were unfairly victimised by a marshal for whatever reason, or for that matter have a right to appeal the decision of the marshal or site owner?

On the matter of hot AEG's:
As a site owner myself as every other site owner would testify to this is an ongoing issue that we are all trying to address. I have seen AEG's chrono'ed at my site that come in under the 1J limit and for them to be transported to another site in the boot of a car for them to chrono over the limit??

There are IMHO too many variables as to why this could happen that has been discussed at great lengths on many other threads in this forum and others.

On the matter of hot AEG's that has been blatantly tampered with or switched to fool an organiser of an event or site owner that needs to be an instant ban across all sites.
Anything that chrono's above 330fps (taking into account the variables of weather, temperature or humidity) on a spot check after an initial chrono at the start of a game or match should be deemed blatant attempt of cheating or trying to cheat the chrono regulations and the law!


My 2 cents.


Bren

FingalAirsoft

Originally Posted by [DM]-TheDOC-
You knwo I'm one for second chances.

I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

If a blacklist happens.

Step 1:
Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
Stept 2:
player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
Step 3:
If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
Step 4:
This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
Step 5:
Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

Step 6:
Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
Step 7:
See step 5
Step 8:
Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

Now were on the right track, well done.;);) this is a solution right here!

hrta

The best thing for hot guns is to have them all set to 315 fps, that way the wether on some days, wont get you put off a site, for being over the limt.

Masada

OzCam wrote: »

Does anyone know how much those little tamper-evident stickers cost?

If we could get all the responsible sites to agree, it should be possible to seal an AEG when it passes a chrono test, and then have it accepted everywhere else until the sticker is torn. That would significantly reduce the amount of testing required.

Obviously there may be some guns where it's possible to increase the velocity without disassembling the gun and tearing a sticker. Also, it would still be necessary to do spot checks. If your gun has to be taken apart for fixing you'll have to have it sealed again, and so on. But it might be worth investigating. It's got to be quicker than chronoing every gun, every time.

Theres a couple of issues with that though,
firstly, you have to ask how many people will be issuing these sitckers and whats the chances of them being attached without chrono'ing, or even worse, not caring about the chrono reading.

Then theres the fact that it can get damaged. The one thing that would annoy me though is the fact that i would have to keep getting new stickers all the time since i modify my guns a lot.

Theres also the likes of the Star guns that use quick release springs and you cant really seal them up, also gas rifles that run on 134a. Just by gassing this with green gas it will be over the limit.


I know it is an inconvience to have the guns chrono'd all the time and they dont always get checked, but this is a sport based on the honour system after all and i think a site should be able to trust a person to be legal, maybe even just their regulars that they know and they can chrono the people they dont recognise or just people who havent had a chrono already. If someone gets caught over the limit they get banned for a month or something. no excuses, no exceptions.
Ignorance is no excuse so don't give in to them when they give the usual storys of "ahh, i borrowed it from me mate" etc etc.

Chrono's are small enough for a marshal to bring around with him during the game and he can pull up any player at any time and chrono his gun then and there, mid game. this is the best thing to do since there are some crafty bastards out there that are bringing in one rifle for chrono'ing and then switching them in the boot of the car later on and playing with the hot ones.

Gatling

its time the sites stop being so trusting and start enforcing the rules and the law ,
its a business first then a skirmish site 2nd,
its like a shop giving aegs on credit cause its an honour sport ,dont worry pay me when ever you can i know you skirmish once a week ,
I DONT THINK SO ,

aegs should be chronoed every time you sign in and out ,if needs be use the cable ties used to secure trucks on the reciever throught the trigger guard to prevent guns being upgraded or switched during play,
aegs dont leave the safe zone during breaks once signed in and chronoed ,they stay in a cabin until after lunch , put a marshal in the car parks to make sure people arent changing a spring or other

a code of conduct added to the sign in sheet caught with a hot aeg or repated cheating perma banned , repeatly caught with hot aegs then persons details should be passed on to the relevent authories,
cheat non hit taking or other'
punish the indivdual, if there on a team punish the team too, captains have a responsibity for the teams behaviour

public naming and shaming at sites when caught its stated why the person is being banned and why ,tough love ,

pussyfooting or kid glove approach about what to do wont work ,either take and make a stand against cheats -or stop complaining if your not willing to make a strand,

Masada

Gatling wrote: »

its time the sites stop being so trusting and start enforcing the rules and the law ,
its a business first then a skirmish site 2nd,
its like a shop giving aegs on credit cause its an honour sport ,dont worry pay me when ever you can i know you skirmish once a week ,
I DONT THINK SO ,

That is probably the most far fetched comparason i have ever read, fact.


As for the rest, There is no point in bringing in more new rules when we are too laxidaisy with the rules we have already. Its not like their getting through in a loophole, they are breaking the rules and not suffering the consequences.

OzCam

Oh all right then, it was worth a try at least.

I do feel that we should be doing more spot checks though. One practical way to do this would be for a marshal to set up at a regen point and check the next, say, 5 players to come in. Then move to another point some time later in the day and do 5 players for the other team. Be unpredictable as to where and when you're setting up a checkpoint, but it will also be fair because the players will arrive at random.

Also chrono at random during game breaks and whenever a gun is suspect. At lunchtime, pick a camo-of-the-day and check everyone wearing it, or pick Armalites, or AKs, or Steyrs or whatever.

To have a deterrent effect, it doesn't need to happen all the time, just be unpredictable and be a constant background thought.

Security is a process, not an event.

Hivemind187

OzCam wrote: »

Oh all right then, it was worth a try at least.

I do feel that we should be doing more spot checks though. One practical way to do this would be for a marshal to set up at a regen point and check the next, say, 5 players to come in. Then move to another point some time later in the day and do 5 players for the other team. Be unpredictable as to where and when you're setting up a checkpoint, but it will also be fair because the players will arrive at random.

Also chrono at random during game breaks and whenever a gun is suspect. At lunchtime, pick a camo-of-the-day and check everyone wearing it, or pick Armalites, or AKs, or Steyrs or whatever.

To have a deterrent effect, it doesn't need to happen all the time, just be unpredictable and be a constant background thought.

Security is a process, not an event.

Are we to breathalyze players to?

Seriously? Checkpoints?

Marshalls have enough to do without having to set up locations for spot-checking guns. Who is to be keeping an eye on the game being played while the checks are happening? Human resources are low on any airsoft field.

I can see marshalls carrying a chrono with them for quick checks but there would need to be a degree of common sense used due to the varying conditions encountered even moving around a field (not the doppler effect!).

I can also see players getring pissed off having to re-set their hop-unit again after the start-of-day chrono. Or worse, people demanding someone gets a spot check just to take them out of play for a moment.

Dr_Pepper

hrta wrote: »

The best thing for hot guns is to have them all set to 315 fps, that way the wether on some days, wont get you put off a site, for being over the limt.

I for one love this idea.
I set all my guns to 300fps MAX with a .2g bb.

OzCam

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Are we to breathalyze players to?

Seriously? Checkpoints?

Marshalls have enough to do without having to set up locations for spot-checking guns.

No, I didn't mean all this should happen on the same day, just that there are many ways to do spot checks randomly and fairly. If they're not perceived as fair they can be counterproductive. I'd suggest that it's a better idea than the hanging and flogging that some people would like to see.

You can't fairly take players out of the middle of a game. If someone is giving rise to suspicion they can be checked the next time they regen. If you have two marshals, one can keep an eye on the game while the other does some checks for a few minutes. Yes, it'll mess up the hop adjustment, but resetting that takes no more time than changing a battery or refilling mags. It's not a huge extra imposition into playing time. If a site can have a staff member standing at a chrono for an hour, the players can put up with being inconvenienced for a few minutes once in a while.

We absolutely need more marshals, of course. But we need some more random checks too.

Hivemind187

OzCam wrote: »

No, I didn't mean all this should happen on the same day, just that there are many ways to do spot checks randomly and fairly. If they're not perceived as fair they can be counterproductive. I'd suggest that it's a better idea than the hanging and flogging that some people would like to see.

You can't fairly take players out of the middle of a game. If someone is giving rise to suspicion they can be checked the next time they regen. If you have two marshals, one can keep an eye on the game while the other does some checks for a few minutes. Yes, it'll mess up the hop adjustment, but resetting that takes no more time than changing a battery or refilling mags. It's not a huge extra imposition into playing time. If a site can have a staff member standing at a chrono for an hour, the players can put up with being inconvenienced for a few minutes once in a while.

We absolutely need more marshals, of course. But we need some more random checks too.

Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation though.

On the one hand everyone is screaming about cheaters. On the other they are screaming about hot guns.

On both counts marshals and venues get it in the neck for this kind of behavior when the fact is that they are doing the best they can with the limited resources available. 90% of people complaining are the same people who arent offering to give up their time to see things improve.

It's laughable really, airsoft has only been around in the republic since August 2006. It's not even three years old yet. This kind of thing is just teething issues, stuff that gets sorted out through trial, error and most importantly the efforts of those who wish to see change.

If you have two marshalls on the field and one is sitting in a respawn to chrono kit that means you have only 1 pair of eyes watching the show. Give that five minutes and you'll start hearing people screaming "Take your ****ing hits you horrible ****!" (and thats a quote). Once people start that kind of thing it spreads like cancer and every starts to assume that anything they shoot at they hit.

Only about 1 in 5 calls of someone not taking their hits has been accurate from my perspective (usually standaing 2-3 feet behind the accused). In most cases its the drop of the BB and the end of its flight path that is confusing to the shooter (there is a scientific word for this but I can't remember it).

There is no argument that cheating goes on but I dont see setting up chrono check points as being the answer without a) more marshals and b) players with far more patience.