Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

Boroimhe

Hi all,

I have been playing airsoft for a while now and love this sport.

I hate to be the one to bring all the bad aspects of it to the fore but noone else seems to be risking the wrath of others and it has to be done by someone!

I was out airsofting the other day (those who know me know where I was and what I was doing), hot guns were allowed to be used on site and 70% of the other team we played aginst were caught not taking their hits by a marshall (this was reported to the head marshall) and no punishment was met out for the team.

Guns that had been tagged already were firing in excess of 1.5 of a joule, again with no punishment issued. This also was reported to the head marshall. Even after this, aegs that were in excess of 1 joule were allowed to be used in game.

The site owner to my knowledge was not informed (I trust his judgement), making this that much worse, his insurance wouldn't have covered him and he knew nothing of what was going on!

A lot of people who care about our sport rallied recently to plead with the doj to allow us the responsability to self govern. An Gardaí have not came down hard on us (thanks for that lads). Now we should be showing them both that we deserve that trust and we are not going to stay silent!

I feel there are too many allowances made and this shouldn't be the case, the law is black and white, the rules are very clear and both are being broken!

I think its time for a change, time for honest teams, hard working and honest retailers/site onwers to bare the fruit of their hard work and ethical behaviour.

If you witness acts of an illegal nature or that bring airsoft into disrepute then you should report this to the IAA, failing that you should call the garda.

No more winks here lads and ladies, if you truely care about our sport then you should protect it!

Please post if you agree, if you are sick of teams cheating/marshalls not doing their jobs/retailers and site owners not chronoing aegs before sale or renting them out. Cause I am!

Stercus Accidit

Report dodgey sites to the IAA, and don't play there anymore.

I'd have demanded my money back in that situation.


The places I play I trust, I often know the players I'm playing with and don't worry bout this very much, but in this case, you were right to contact the IAA.

It's exactly these sort of assholes that caused our near ban a while back, have no sympathy for them and go to the IAA, who will sort them or report them to the gardai.

Boroimhe

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Report dodgey sites to the IAA, and don't play there anymore.

I'd have demanded my money back in that situation.


The places I play I trust, I often know the players I'm playing with and don't worry bout this very much, but in this case, you were right to contact the IAA.

It's exactly these sort of assholes that caused our near ban a while back, have no sympathy for them and go to the IAA, who will sort them or report them to the gardai.

Nice to know there are like minded people in our small community!

TheDoc

Been saying this for months

Cheating is out of control at this point, and ive made that point on a number of occasions.

Hot guns, are a weekly occurance.

Lets not lie about it, every week I go playing airsoft, there is a serious amount of cheaters, and a serious amount of hot guns.

And it is the same people, over and over again. There is a problem on most sites with marshall ratio to players.

But in my opinion, theres alot of site owners avoiding confrontation, and in the end it is only a matter of site owners growing a pair. But also everyone else. If you see cheating, do not just have a moan about it, go tell a marshall, and make sure that person is removed from the game.

Theres too much pussy footing and ****e, and I'm sick of it too.

Cheaters are ruining the sport, as are hot guns, endangering the sport.

Sunday at the take aim cup, it revivded my interest in the game, due to the great matches I had. But others were not so lucky, there was some major shtie in other games.


But at the end of the day power is with the site owners and marshalls. Should they fail to perform their duties, it is down to the players.

tonky

Somebody has to name & shame. I use mesh goggles and want to avoid this issue of hot guns. Why do we keep dancing around the problem.
We are really doing the site a favor by naming names, if you think about it.
I think the majority try to play fair and keep to 1J, If someone is injured by a hot gun, I assume the Site owner is liable to civil action/prosecution?

The Warehouse

Its very simple, if someones gun fires hot don't allow them to use it, if they sneak it back on then they get barred. If a certain team/player is known for constantly cheating then they get barred.

I think the problem is people are thinking far to much of their pocket and not enough about the sport, I would prefer 100 good honest players then 1000 cheaters on my site!

We as site owners should meet and come up with some sort of arrangement where we communicate these issues to each other. That way players or teams that constantly break the rules will have nowhere to go.

Dishonest retailers should reported to the IAA so the gov have no reason to ever take action against us.

We have asked for self regulation so lets do it!

fayer

tonky wrote: »

If someone is injured by a hot gun, I assume the Site owner is liable to civil action/prosecution?

Correct.

So is the player using it and its no small offence under law.

The Warehouse

tonky wrote: »

Somebody has to name & shame. I use mesh goggles and want to avoid this issue of hot guns. Why do we keep dancing around the problem.
We are really doing the site a favor by naming names, if you think about it.
I think the majority try to play fair and keep to 1J, If someone is injured by a hot gun, I assume the Site owner is liable to civil action/prosecution?

Your rite there, if people come into a site under the impression that all guns are firing the legal limit and get injured due to the inability of the marshalls to chrono the gun they have the moral and legal rite to sue!

José Alaninho

I was under the impression that if you are using (or even have in your possession) a gun firing over 1J, you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm and are liable to prosecution for the same? Seems a lot more serious response is required than just being barred from a site!

The Warehouse

José Alaninho wrote: »

I was under the impression that if you are using (or even have in your possession) a gun firing over 1J, you are in possession of an unlicensed firearm and are liable to prosecution for the same? Seems a lot more serious response is required than just being barred from a site!

Your rite but there is this stupid thing ingrained in airsofters that we say nothing to anybody and then bitch and moan about the government introducing measures against us.

It seems that they have to, no?

Hivemind187

The fact is that marshals cant be everywhere at all times and booting someone out for cheating is harder than you'd think. You actually have to catch them doing it yourself, otherwise its whomever reported the cheaters word versus theirs. Considering the unbelievable childishness I have experienced with even some well known heads in the community, how is a marshall meant to know the difference between someone being petty and trying to remove someone by means of a "tactical lie" and a genuine report of cheating?

I know that it goes on, even when I'm marshalling. When we get a tip off we keep an eye on the player. Usually thats enough to put a stop to the behavior but every so often we do have to boot someone - and let me tell you, thats not a pleasant experience.

The fact is that most venues and marshalls are overwhelmed. Trying to keep track of the actions of 20-30 people with only two sets of eyes to go around is difficult at the best of times. Trying to run games, catch cheaters, maintain a safety awareness and plan the rest of the day while doing so is like trying to juggle cats - difficult, painful and ultimately futile.

Since last year, every time I have marshalled at HRTA (which has been regularly) every gun has been chronoed before the game day begins - regardless of whether it is new to the site or not. We have seen a lot of hot-ones. We have had incidents where people have tried to pull the wool, trouble is its not exactly easy to spot it and be certain. You can send them back to the safe zone but you cant go with them and make sure that they are doing exactly as instructed without leaving the game.

The truth is, airsoft is meant to be a game of fun and honour but what is meant to be and what actually is are two entirely different issues. There will always be sad, pathetic, skill-less people who need to cheat in order to feel like a winner - you can't fix that because its human nature.

So what can you do?

As far as I can see there are three ways of dealing with these issues.

1) Report the individual to the marshal and the site owner - don't leave it up to everyone else to do it for you. The more voices that speak the better the chances of being heard.

2) Report venues or individuals who are deliberately and contemptuously ignoring or breaking the 1 joule limit to the IAA and to the IASRA and to the Gardai if needs be. Don't wait for someone else to do it, dont sit on your haunches and complain without making tangible effort yourself.*

3) Completely ignore everything thats going on and simply stop playing at the venues where you find cheaters. That way, in a matter of months, you'll have no where left to play.

The third option is sarcasm.

So report the cheaters. Do it everytime you see them. Eventually they will get a reputation (as many people already do) and either they will change their behavior or they'll get black-listed from venues.

Do not start placing the blame on those who are providing you with the place to play and the means to do so in safety with arbitration. Thats the same mentality as blaming airsoft for "gun-culture".


*Do remember that there is a difference between an individual who is cheating or breaking the rules and the venue he/she/it is playing at.

StevieGriff

A name and shame sytem wouldnt do any harm

peter-pantslez

i cant stand cheaters!!!!

airsoft is a game of honesty if you are not prepared to be honest then dont play the sport it just ruins it for everyone else playing and seriously pi$$es me off when you know you are actually hitting someone and can see the bb's bouncing off them and they just stand there!!!! cop on and play fair if not theres the door (points to imaginary door:))!!

as for hot guns it will just lead to an all out ban on the sport if people continue to import and use these guns at sites, it will only take one incident where some one is seriously hurt by one and then that will be it, bye bye airsoft!!!

The Warehouse

Hivemind187 wrote: »

The fact is that marshals cant be everywhere at all times and booting someone out for cheating is harder than you'd think. You actually have to catch them doing it yourself, otherwise its whomever reported the cheaters word versus theirs. Considering the unbelievable childishness I have experienced with even some well known heads in the community, how is a marshall meant to know the difference between someone being petty and trying to remove someone by means of a "tactical lie" and a genuine report of cheating?

As a full time marshall I can obviously speak from experience here, you can catch them (if you watch), we don't take action from what people said, you use that to know who to watch and it doesn't matter who they are, we once cheater checked Doc 8 times in one game and we already knew that he always takes his hits but it has to be done (try cheater checking).

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I know that it goes on, even when I'm marshalling. When we get a tip off we keep an eye on the player. Usually thats enough to put a stop to the behavior but every so often we do have to boot someone - and let me tell you, thats not a pleasant experience.

We have barred several people at this stage so again I know its no pleasure but again it has to be done!

Hivemind187 wrote: »

The fact is that most venues and marshalls are overwhelmed. Trying to keep track of the actions of 20-30 people with only two sets of eyes to go around is difficult at the best of times. Trying to run games, catch cheaters, maintain a safety awareness and plan the rest of the day while doing so is like trying to juggle cats - difficult, painful and ultimately futile.

Not hitting at you here but if you think it is futile then you shouldn't be a marshall!

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Since last year, every time I have marshalled at HRTA (which has been regularly) every gun has been chronoed before the game day begins - regardless of whether it is new to the site or not. We have seen a lot of hot-ones. We have had incidents where people have tried to pull the wool, trouble is its not exactly easy to spot it and be certain. You can send them back to the safe zone but you cant go with them and make sure that they are doing exactly as instructed without leaving the game.

Then you leave the game and ensure that the person breaking the rules is off the site and not causing any more risk to other players obviosuly.

Hivemind187 wrote: »

The truth is, airsoft is meant to be a game of fun and honour but what is meant to be and what actually is are two entirely different issues. There will always be sad, pathetic, skill-less people who need to cheat in order to feel like a winner - you can't fix that because its human nature.

Again with the pessimism, you can bar them, if you are marshalling in HRTA then you are representing Paul's name and not to take action reflects on him NOT YOU. SO you should consult him about your opinions here!

Hivemind187 wrote: »

So what can you do?

As far as I can see there are three ways of dealing with these issues.

1) Report the individual to the marshal and the site owner - don't leave it up to everyone else to do it for you. The more voices that speak the better the chances of being heard.

2) Report venues or individuals who are deliberately and contemptuously ignoring or breaking the 1 joule limit to the IAA and to the IASRA and to the Gardai if needs be. Don't wait for someone else to do it, dont sit on your haunches and complain without making tangible effort yourself.*

3) Completely ignore everything thats going on and simply stop playing at the venues where you find cheaters. That way, in a matter of months, you'll have no where left to play.

The third option is sarcasm.

So report the cheaters. Do it everytime you see them. Eventually they will get a reputation (as many people already do) and either they will change their behavior or they'll get black-listed from venues.

Do not start placing the blame on those who are providing you with the place to play and the means to do so in safety with arbitration. Thats the same mentality as blaming airsoft for "gun-culture".


*Do remember that there is a difference between an individual who is cheating or breaking the rules and the venue he/she/it is playing at.

I agree with your points there!

Sod'o swords

I can understand people not doing anything when they see people cheating, they might have a wee moan and leave it.


But if you see guns over the limit being used or allowed to be used, that's totally different.

Cheating won't get you arrested and put even more legal pressure on the sport, where as over the limit guns will.

Of course cheating defeats the whole honesty aspect that airsoft is based on, but it's not to be considered in the same boat as the use of over the limit guns. Totally different consequences for the player, site and sport.

The more Taboo it's made the better.

The Warehouse

Sod'o swords wrote: »

I can understand people not doing anything when they see people cheating, they might have a wee moan and leave it.


But if you see guns over the limit being used or allowed to be used, that's totally different.

Cheating won't get you arrested and put even more legal pressure on the sport, where as over the limit guns will.

Of course cheating defeats the whole honesty aspect that airsoft is based on, but it's not to be considered in the same boat as the use of over the limit guns. Totally different consequences for the player, site and sport.

The more Taboo it's made the better.

I disagree with your take on people not taking their hits, it should be zero tolerance. I am sick of it! Everyone is sick of it, so we should simply get together and make it stop!

Sod'o swords

Hmmm, didn't make that very clear.

I'm not saying to be lax about people not taking hits and do nothing.

I'm just saying that illegal guns being used are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important to catch and be dealt with.

Of course there should be zero tolerance on not taking hits.

Plus i might add it's harder to marshal on a place like HRTA than the Warehouse because of the distances.
Yes it has rooms, but between the tower and changing rooms, you can pretty much see everything.

Boroimhe

Its good to see this thread growing so fast, we need to do something about this. I didn't start this thread to have a bitch. I started it to get a few names together so we can start punishing players, teams, sites and retailers by their name (which is the only way to sort this out).

If none of us take it then we can sort this mess out!

I would like to see retailers/site owners and teams/players sign up on this thread so we can all hold ourselves up to a high standard that we all made together!

The Warehouse

Sod'o swords wrote: »

Hmmm, didn't make that very clear.

I'm not saying to be lax about people not taking hits and do nothing.

I'm just saying that illegal guns being used are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important to catch and be dealt with.

Of course there should be zero tolerance on not taking hits.

Plus i might add it's harder to marshal on a place like HRTA than the Warehouse because of the distances.
Yes it has rooms, but between the tower and changing rooms, you can pretty much see everything.

I'm not saying anything about HRTA, nor do I have the rite to. Before we got the tower put in we had to just walk through the fire (we all have many scars to remember it by) to marshall, it was hard but we did it!

We never backed away from making harsh calls (NEVER) we have barred people for blind firing, for not taking their hits, using hot guns and we have even barred people for walking to our door (from the road) without a cover on their gun so I think our determination to observe and enforce the rules has been tested and proven!

Ask any of our customers!

Beast ASI

Name and Shame.

Only way.

What site was it?

Hivemind187

I'm going to assume you picked me up wrong.

For the record I'm one of the longest serving marshals in airsoft in the republic of Ireland.

The Warehouse wrote: »

As a full time marshall I can obviously speak from experience here, you can catch them (if you watch), we don't take action from what people said, you use that to know who to watch and it doesn't matter who they are, we once cheater checked Doc 8 times in one game and we already knew that he always takes his hits but it has to be done (try cheater checking).

Considering myself and one or two others were the first to start using a pistol to "cheater check".

If you read down a little in my post you'll spot that I said "I know that it goes on, even when I'm marshalling. When we get a tip off we keep an eye on the player. Usually thats enough to put a stop to the behavior but every so often we do have to boot someone - and let me tell you, thats not a pleasant experience." (I know you read it because you quoted it).

The fact is that it is not always sufficient and to be quite honest, and this isnt a shot at you, but the warehouse is a lot smaller an area to keep an eye on than HRTA.

The Warehouse wrote: »

We have barred several people at this stage so again I know its no pleasure but again it has to be done!

Did I say it didnt have to be done?

The Warehouse wrote: »

Not hitting at you here but if you think it is futile then you shouldn't be a marshall!

Ahem, with all due respect, you are taking a shot there.

If you read what I said carefully you will note that it is an "analogy". The futility I implied was that it is pointless to think that you can ever be in all places at once in order to check everyone and everything - certain things have to take priority. Hence radio's, multiple marshalls etc which give you better coverage, but its still not perfect.

The Warehouse wrote: »

Then you leave the game and ensure that the person breaking the rules is off the site and not causing any more risk to other players obviosuly.

... and what about the other players on the field? No marshal = insurance liability.

The Warehouse wrote: »

Again with the pessimism, you can bar them, if you are marshalling in HRTA then you are representing Paul's name and not to take action reflects on him NOT YOU. SO you should consult him about your opinions here!

I'm well aware of my position on the field. I am not a direct employee of HRTA. It is not my responsibility nor right to make site-level decisions. That is up to the site operator and the site operator alone.

Secondly, its not pessimism. It is accepting that no matter what you do, and this applies to any pursuit, there will always be those individuals who will cut-corners or break rules to get ahead. Its simply a fact of life.

The only method which could eliminate it permanently would be to bar all known cheaters from airsoft, then bar anyone ever accused of cheating from your venue and to not allow new players on the off chance that they might cheat at some point. I'm not being facitious, that's the extremity you would need to go to in order to actually eliminate cheating altogether.

No site could bare that and neither could the sport. I'm not arguing in support of cheaters, I'm trying to point out something similar to what you yourself has said: People spend too much time pissing and moaning rather than actually making an effort to see changes made. Its either out of personal insecurity or outright laziness but the reasons are irrelevant, only the results count, and those are that a lot of cheating goes unreported until it shows up as accusations on a forum.

The Warehouse wrote: »

I agree with your points there!

Well, at least we reach an accord at some point.

Hivemind187

The Warehouse wrote: »

I'm not saying anything about HRTA, nor do I have the rite to. Before we got the tower put in we had to just walk through the fire (we all have many scars to remember it by) to marshall, it was hard but we did it!

We never backed away from making harsh calls (NEVER) we have barred people for blind firing, for not taking their hits, using hot guns and we have even barred people for walking to our door (from the road) without a cover on their gun so I think our determination to observe and enforce the rules has been tested and proven!

Are you suggesting that the marshalls at HRTA do avoid harsh calls?

And listen mate, you arent the only one who has taken his lumps in the name of maintaining order on the airsoft field.

Hivemind187

Boroimhe wrote: »

Its good to see this thread growing so fast, we need to do something about this. I didn't start this thread to have a bitch. I started it to get a few names together so we can start punishing players, teams, sites and retailers by their name (which is the only way to sort this out).

Who's your defence lawyer for the libel case because I want a different one?

I understand your frustration but boards, or indeed any forum, is not the place for such things.

If venues want to keep a "blacklist" of players who have been barred from the site to share that information with one another thats fine, but the public "naming and shaming" bit isn't appropriate or effective.

It's also libel without significant evidence.

The Warehouse

I am not taking shots at you hive. I am speaking generally about all sites including my own. You have brought HRTA into this conversation not us.

We need to stand together to take action against cheaters. I agree that we will never be rid of it but thats not a reason to stop trying.

When 70% of one team is caught not taking hits and 20% of the same team caught using hot guns against players with nothing being done there is a serious issue.

Genghiz Cohen

The Warehouse wrote: »

When 70% of one team is caught not taking hits and 20% of the same team caught using hot guns against players with nothing being done there is a serious issue.

When 1% of a team is using hot guns it is serious.
while cheating is not a serious, on a legal level, it still is maddening.

Dr_Pepper

This thread has gone off on a tangent.
The Warehouse are correct.
If you ban those with "hot guns" or for "cheating" then the game is better for us all and those afformentioned will have nowhere to go, and good riddence.

The Warehouse

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Who's your defence lawyer for the libel case because I want a different one?

I understand your frustration but boards, or indeed any forum, is not the place for such things.

If venues want to keep a "blacklist" of players who have been barred from the site to share that information with one another thats fine, but the public "naming and shaming" bit isn't appropriate or effective.

It's also libel without significant evidence.

Are you saying that if a site owner doesn't chrono all guns present that they are not held liable?

Boards is the perfect place, its where most of the Irish airsoft community discuss issues that surround airsoft so...........

The public name and shame would be for sites and retailers not for public, the one for players and teams would be held between the site owners and perhaps the IAA (if they wish to take this over).

The point of this thread is to see if there is enough support for such an idea in the community, not to slander people. If people agree then we will support and help the creation of such a body in any way we can!

I would ask people not to take this thread personally, its meant to help stop the malarchy thats going on!

But either way the looking away needs to stop!

Fallschirmjager

being a proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy and therefore for less government and liberty for all...(fuk, how did i get onto this..oh yes)
i think it is unfair to expect marshals to do this and take all the guff. it is incumbent on us all to do this, every player. calling out your own team because a cheater is present is the best and most embarrassing way possible to out cheaters and obviously forfeiture of the game ....we should not need marshals at all. honour is the code of airsoft, if you want to abuse that then fuk off back to counterstrike..

cheaters should be pariahs, the dregs of humanity that no one want to play with. i know we cant name name due to legal reasons here, but the airsoft grapevine is worth its weight in gold. in fact lets agree on a new name for cheaters...something truly embarassing...something no one would want to be named...

perhaps we could agree on a standard sign on how many cheaters were caught on a site and maybe the sites could share that info between themselves. Personally i would allow them to play again (huh i hear you say!). Yes let them play BUT the cost--triple it for cheaters, fuk it, even quadruple it until they learn the lesson. Trust me, hitting people in the pocket for persistent failures is the only way..if all the sites take names and share them, and tell people you are welcome back but the cost is 100 euro to play...the message will be heard. Just remember to put it in the T&C's of your site.

money will sort this out. anyone who doesnt agree they were cheating particularly persistent cheating...will learn very quickly..to be honest, even if it means a loss of a player in airsoft, so be it...as the warehouse said a small group of consistent players is more valuable then a moron turning up now and again trying to piss everyone off.

as for hot guns, all i can speak for is 2 sites HRTA and Galway and both treated hot aegs like a blood sample of ebola...anyways maybe some of the sites could also offer spring changes for people .....potential business opportunity there me thinks!!!

Hivemind187

The Warehouse wrote: »

Are you saying that if a site owner doesn't chrono all guns present that they are not held liable?

Boards is the perfect place, its where most of the Irish airsoft community discuss issues that surround airsoft so...........

The public name and shame would be for sites and retailers not for public, the one for players and teams would be held between the site owners and perhaps the IAA (if they wish to take this over).

The point of this thread is to see if there is enough support for such an idea in the community, not to slander people. If people agree then we will support and help the creation of such a body in any way we can!

I would ask people not to take this thread personally, its meant to help stop the malarchy thats going on!

But either way the looking away needs to stop!

Where did I say anything about the legal liability of chronoing?

What I said was that if you start making accusations on a public forum regarding the conduct of other people without evidence then you leave yourself and the forum open to legal action for libel.

Libel

Liable

I doubt very much that the IAA are going to keep a public record of persons accused of cheating. It's outside the remit of the constituion and their mission statement. Also, it would be a whole other kettle of fish interms of data protection.

As I have said, a venue can keep a list of those who are barred from their venue and they may choose to share that information with other venues if they see fit. Personally, I find that this is the only appropriate method of dealing with such issues as "naming and shaming".

The Warehouse

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Where did I say anything about the legal liability of chronoing?

What I said was that if you start making accusations on a public forum regarding the conduct of other people without evidence then you leave yourself and the forum open to legal action for libel.

Libel

Liable

I doubt very much that the IAA are going to keep a public record of persons accused of cheating. It's outside the remit of the constituion and their mission statement. Also, it would be a whole other kettle of fish interms of data protection.

As I have said, a venue can keep a list of those who are barred from their venue and they may choose to share that information with other venues if they see fit. Personally, I find that this is the only appropriate method of dealing with such issues as "naming and shaming".

Dude we seem to be of the same mind here. Would you be willing to pop up to us one of the days so we can chat and decide some form of system that is workable?

I have pm'd site owners just a few minutes ago to see are they willing to sign up to such a project, if any one of them agree then you will all here about it and the system will be worked on straight away, all site owners/retailers/marshalls/players and teams would be welcome to have theri say in the best way forward!

Hive, thanks a lot for your input on this thread man.

G3-Nut

too much whinging and moaning, the fun is being eaten away inch by inch...

I used to be a fecker for moaning about people not taking hits, id moan the hole way back from dublin to carlow about one guy not taking one certain hit....until i came across a revalation, and it has improved the game for me so much,

that i enjoyed getting in a firefight with a guy who clearly didnt want to take a hit that actually drew blood, he came and said it to me after the match, he showed me his hand and it was bleeding from a hit, he said i did it when we both fired a single shot at eachother at the same time, he hit my hand too, but then i wondered, wait, i remember looking back as i was walking to respawn, and he was advancing?? so i said it to him, if i hit him, why did he no go to respawn like i did, and he immediately changed what he said and tried to convince me, it was the ''second time'' we met at such close range, funny thing was it only happened me once all day...i actually laughed, i turned and walked away, but i knew as i walked away that i am, the better player of us both....

It kind of changed how i looked at non hit taking, after that when people dont take hits, and i am 110% that i did hit him, i kind of let a little YESSS inside my head, knowing i did get him, especially when you hear it hit him and he twitches, but then jumps to cover, or especially when i see it hit....i never complain, i point it out to the marshal, thats all, i dont start screaming at him to take hits, i dont even swear to myself, i just smile, knowing its another ass who couldnt take that he ran 30 meters for nothing:cool:

im telling you all,look at non hit taking this way, and you will not stress, point it out to the marshall, and smile, be happy, dont worry:D

TheDoc

Totally agree wtih above

At this stage it is not even libel, I can name here about 50 players, that I know week in week out cheat like ****ers.

I can name about 15 players I know always have hot guns, and always throw their hop up fully on o trick a chrono.

But I think a point that has to be made, is where did this come from? Why all the cheating, why all the hot guns?

Well because, certain sites were letting hot guns go into their sites. End of. People were getting away with it. So word fast spread, that it was the norm and that is was " ok cause there is a 10% limit".

If it was one or two people a week trying to trick a chrono with hot guns fair enough, if it was 10 people a week honestly mistaking their hop on fine.

But there is a ****ing serious amount of people knowingly gonig to sites with hot guns, and not getting chronoed properly, and sneaking in hot guns.

I've been hit with a 5j gun. Its not nice, its soar, but its not something id go mental about, where i played, it was legal, so fine.

But heres its 1j, we can ****ing moan and chat and ****e away till the cows come home, aboutwanting snipers with higher joules, we can wag willies about pyros and all ****e.

But if we cannot have one day where there isnt an incident of cheating, without trying to bring illegal guns onto a site, whats the ****ing point.

Seriously what is the point.

In future, me personally , should I experience cheating I'm literally going to take matters into my own hands in two ways.
A) Leave the site and demand a refund of my money from the site owner
Approach the player and question why he is a wanker, and restrain myself from bursting the head off him.


Hive hit the nail on the head, there is a serious lack of marshalls in sites. Its like asking a referee in football to ref two matches. Ireland requires a **** load of marshalls, because frankly theres so much cheating its needed.

So in effect, marshalling cannot be done. I said before, the only properly marshalled site is the warehouse, because of its small size and marshall numbers, it can be effectively marshalled.

I have to beg the question, why should I bother going to sites and pay €20 of my money, to end up coming home completely aggro and freaked over the amount of cheating.

Why should I go spend thousands on airsoft kit, to come up against cheaters, and get outgunned by some prik who lobs a 2j spring into a clone.

Why should me and my team mates bother doing training, when it will all be undone ingame with cheaters, who like in everything, are just **** skilled losers, couldnt win to save their lives so they cheat, to cover up their pure ****eness.

Ultimately it begs the question, why do I bother playing airsoft, spending all this money, all this time and effort, when I do not even enjoy the thing anymore. But then again, why should I be the one to suffer. I've spent thousands of euro, I can honestly say I have on two occasions been called by a marshall over hits, about 6 months ago, when i got shot in my hydration pouch on my back, and another day was shot in my pistol holster, impossible to feel, hard to hear with all the shooting going on. Why should I be made to suffer?

Cheaters should be sitebanned instantly, theres no hard call to make, I do not buy that, thats more bull**** to cover up the fact theres a ton of people who hate confrontation.

If I was marshalling tomorrow, and Richie and Tony, two close friends and colleagues were cheating, I would have no problem in telling them to take a hike. And I know they would be the same.

I would love to see a list of the players who have been lost to Airsoft because of the amount of cheating, honest good players who have stopped plaiyng because of the ****e.

I personally now do not feel like playing much anymore.
Shiva today mentioned he doesnt bother too much because of the amount of cheaters.
Masada one day stormed out of HRTA, and rightly so, it was so disgraceful and didnt skirmish for ages.
Sam there has mentioned he doesnt bother.
I'm sure Hive would rather play a game then marshall all the time.
DrPepper usually has to go marshall when he is out, because **** gets so outa hand.
And I'm sure the site owners would love to play a game the odd itme and not have to worry bout marshalling and peoples honesty.

Airsoft is in a sad state at the moment, a really bad one, for a small community and a new sport, its an awful sham. And for once the government had nothing to do with it.

JonAnderton

This list will hold details of 'persistant and proved' cheaters I take it... Hate to think that just cos I didnt feel a few long distance shots to my vest I'd be banned...

Hivemind187

The Warehouse wrote: »

Dude we seem to be of the same mind here. Would you be willing to pop up to us one of the days so we can chat and decide some form of system that is workable?

I have pm'd site owners just a few minutes ago to see are they willing to sign up to such a project, if any one of them agree then you will all here about it and the system will be worked on straight away, all site owners/retailers/marshalls/players and teams would be welcome to have theri say in the best way forward!

Hive, thanks a lot for your input on this thread man.

No hassle. I'll see when I'm next out your way.

Boroimhe

G3-Nut wrote: »

too much whinging and moaning, the fun is being eaten away inch by inch...

I used to be a fecker for moaning about people not taking hits, id moan the hole way back from dublin to carlow about one guy not taking one certain hit....until i came across a revalation, and it has improved the game for me so much,

that i enjoyed getting in a firefight with a guy who clearly didnt want to take a hit that actually drew blood, he came and said it to me after the match, he showed me his hand and it was bleeding from a hit, he said i did it when we both fired a single shot at eachother at the same time, he hit my hand too, but then i wondered, wait, i remember looking back as i was walking to respawn, and he was advancing?? so i said it to him, if i hit him, why did he no go to respawn like i did, and he immediately changed what he said and tried to convince me, it was the ''second time'' we met at such close range, funny thing was it only happened me once all day...i actually laughed, i turned and walked away, but i knew as i walked away that i am, the better player of us both....

It kind of changed how i looked at non hit taking, after that when people dont take hits, and i am 110% that i did hit him, i kind of let a little YESSS inside my head, knowing i did get him, especially when you hear it hit him and he twitches, but then jumps to cover, or especially when i see it hit....i never complain, i point it out to the marshal, thats all, i dont start screaming at him to take hits, i dont even swear to myself, i just smile, knowing its another ass who couldnt take that he ran 30 meters for nothing:cool:

im telling you all,look at non hit taking this way, and you will not stress, point it out to the marshall, and smile, be happy, dont worry:D

Its great that you think like that G3, unfortunately not everyone sees it that way and the fact remains that cheaters and people using illegal fire arms are wrecking our sport no matter what way you look at it!

Something has to be done so hopefully some of those site owners reply to The Warehouse's pm and this system gets sorted out for all of us!

Boroimhe

JonAnderton wrote: »

This list will hold details of 'persistant and proved' cheaters I take it... Hate to think that just cos I didnt feel a few long distance shots to my vest I'd be banned...

Good point Jon, it would be for teams and players that are constantly breaking the rules not the honest player that just didn't feel it!

It would also be a way of nailing down just what retailers and sites are allowing these issues to continue, what retailers are selling hot guns, what sites are allowing hot guns to be used and what marshalls are not doing their job?

These are the questions that need to be asked of us all!

Boroimhe

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Totally agree wtih above

At this stage it is not even libel, I can name here about 50 players, that I know week in week out cheat like ****ers.

I can name about 15 players I know always have hot guns, and always throw their hop up fully on o trick a chrono.

But I think a point that has to be made, is where did this come from? Why all the cheating, why all the hot guns?

Well because, certain sites were letting hot guns go into their sites. End of. People were getting away with it. So word fast spread, that it was the norm and that is was " ok cause there is a 10% limit".

If it was one or two people a week trying to trick a chrono with hot guns fair enough, if it was 10 people a week honestly mistaking their hop on fine.

But there is a ****ing serious amount of people knowingly gonig to sites with hot guns, and not getting chronoed properly, and sneaking in hot guns.

I've been hit with a 5j gun. Its not nice, its soar, but its not something id go mental about, where i played, it was legal, so fine.

But heres its 1j, we can ****ing moan and chat and ****e away till the cows come home, aboutwanting snipers with higher joules, we can wag willies about pyros and all ****e.

But if we cannot have one day where there isnt an incident of cheating, without trying to bring illegal guns onto a site, whats the ****ing point.

Seriously what is the point.

In future, me personally , should I experience cheating I'm literally going to take matters into my own hands in two ways.
A) Leave the site and demand a refund of my money from the site owner
Approach the player and question why he is a wanker, and restrain myself from bursting the head off him.


Hive hit the nail on the head, there is a serious lack of marshalls in sites. Its like asking a referee in football to ref two matches. Ireland requires a **** load of marshalls, because frankly theres so much cheating its needed.

So in effect, marshalling cannot be done. I said before, the only properly marshalled site is the warehouse, because of its small size and marshall numbers, it can be effectively marshalled.

I have to beg the question, why should I bother going to sites and pay €20 of my money, to end up coming home completely aggro and freaked over the amount of cheating.

Why should I go spend thousands on airsoft kit, to come up against cheaters, and get outgunned by some prik who lobs a 2j spring into a clone.

Why should me and my team mates bother doing training, when it will all be undone ingame with cheaters, who like in everything, are just **** skilled losers, couldnt win to save their lives so they cheat, to cover up their pure ****eness.

Ultimately it begs the question, why do I bother playing airsoft, spending all this money, all this time and effort, when I do not even enjoy the thing anymore. But then again, why should I be the one to suffer. I've spent thousands of euro, I can honestly say I have on two occasions been called by a marshall over hits, about 6 months ago, when i got shot in my hydration pouch on my back, and another day was shot in my pistol holster, impossible to feel, hard to hear with all the shooting going on. Why should I be made to suffer?

Cheaters should be sitebanned instantly, theres no hard call to make, I do not buy that, thats more bull**** to cover up the fact theres a ton of people who hate confrontation.

If I was marshalling tomorrow, and Richie and Tony, two close friends and colleagues were cheating, I would have no problem in telling them to take a hike. And I know they would be the same.

I would love to see a list of the players who have been lost to Airsoft because of the amount of cheating, honest good players who have stopped plaiyng because of the ****e.

I personally now do not feel like playing much anymore.
Shiva today mentioned he doesnt bother too much because of the amount of cheaters.
Masada one day stormed out of HRTA, and rightly so, it was so disgraceful and didnt skirmish for ages.
Sam there has mentioned he doesnt bother.
I'm sure Hive would rather play a game then marshall all the time.
DrPepper usually has to go marshall when he is out, because **** gets so outa hand.
And I'm sure the site owners would love to play a game the odd itme and not have to worry bout marshalling and peoples honesty.

Airsoft is in a sad state at the moment, a really bad one, for a small community and a new sport, its an awful sham. And for once the government had nothing to do with it.

Once again Doc you speak mountains of truth!

TheDoc

G3-Nut wrote: »

too much whinging and moaning, the fun is being eaten away inch by inch...

I used to be a fecker for moaning about people not taking hits, id moan the hole way back from dublin to carlow about one guy not taking one certain hit....until i came across a revalation, and it has improved the game for me so much,

that i enjoyed getting in a firefight with a guy who clearly didnt want to take a hit that actually drew blood, he came and said it to me after the match, he showed me his hand and it was bleeding from a hit, he said i did it when we both fired a single shot at eachother at the same time, he hit my hand too, but then i wondered, wait, i remember looking back as i was walking to respawn, and he was advancing?? so i said it to him, if i hit him, why did he no go to respawn like i did, and he immediately changed what he said and tried to convince me, it was the ''second time'' we met at such close range, funny thing was it only happened me once all day...i actually laughed, i turned and walked away, but i knew as i walked away that i am, the better player of us both....

It kind of changed how i looked at non hit taking, after that when people dont take hits, and i am 110% that i did hit him, i kind of let a little YESSS inside my head, knowing i did get him, especially when you hear it hit him and he twitches, but then jumps to cover, or especially when i see it hit....i never complain, i point it out to the marshal, thats all, i dont start screaming at him to take hits, i dont even swear to myself, i just smile, knowing its another ass who couldnt take that he ran 30 meters for nothing:cool:

im telling you all,look at non hit taking this way, and you will not stress, point it out to the marshall, and smile, be happy, dont worry:D

IAs much as that may work ofr oyu, if everyone did that, airsoft would be ****ing muck and dead.

The point is, these people need to be banned, need to be punished, need to be sorted out.

I cannot believe that "firing squads" were for people not taking hits. OK so you have found a cheater, and your jsut going to shoot him? Grow balls and ban them.

If I catch someone with a few aces up their sleeve in poker cheating, I'd smash their face open, then the rest of the table would join in.
If I caught someone kicking their golf ball along the fairway, I'd pull them up, ring in to the clubhouse, that player would be disqualififed and put on suspension.
If someone in football two foot lunged me, theyd get a red card, 3 match ban, and then id smash their face in.

Are we seeing a pattern?

Why in airsoft, a sport I play competitively, should I have to put up with cheaters and hot guns and get that ****ing annoying reply " a its only for craic"

Sorry its not for craic, I do not play airsoft for fun all the time. I'm not going to Wales to touch willies with the lads, I'm going there to pit myself against the best. Yeah banter comes with everything, thats grand and good fun. But I'm competitive, I dont cheat.

Sunday we got thoroughly spanked by the ghosts, i didnt go rage, i shook hands, congratulated them and we had laughs after. During that game by god I was a raging bull, I was storming at them life after life trying to shoot as many as I could.

Maybe im the only person that you know, plays competitive games, competively. You this game is, one side agianst another, winners and losers, in the games. Thats the game, you dont stop half way and say " aw lads in fairness we ae beating you bad, come on we call it a draw". Maybe im the only one that thinks like this, and maybe im in the wrong game.

G3-Nut

Boroimhe wrote: »

Its great that you think like that G3, unfortunately not everyone sees it that way and the fact remains that cheaters and people using illegal fire arms are wrecking our sport no matter what way you look at it!

Something has to be done so hopefully some of those site owners reply to The Warehouse's pm and this system gets sorted out for all of us!

I was stricly speaking of non hit takers, as i mentioned many times in the post...

When it comes to hot guns, its a different story, i will say it here as i say to the team mates, if i ever get hit, by a hot gun, i will look at it as a case of assault with an un-licensed firearm(as the law requires)....

And i will take action, and gladly dislocate my knuckles off the criminals forehead for assaulting me(as my law requires)

Dread-Lock

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

in fact lets agree on a new name for cheaters...something truly embarassing...something no one would want to be named...

IMHO I don't think name calling will really sort this problem out.


I am 110% against cheaters and people using hot guns. Although I'm not sure having a big list on here of every cheater will do much. Although I do like the idea of blacklists being shared among sites as that way people have more to lose if they do cheat/use hot guns.

Even if you did do a list you would have to make a sort of wanted poster of them. As if you made a list how are people supposed to know who's who? You would need to ask for ID when people showed up on the site or something to that effect.


I like the idea of a blacklist I just don't know how you'd get it to work.

iceage

Guys this is a tricky subject, and as needed as it is, it could very quicky decend into a witch hunt. Lets not forget that this is a public forum.

Hivemind187

Speaking of HRTA and only of HRTA and only on the days I have been there (enough caveats?).

When I'm up, Pk or Neil you will see the following.

All guns are chronoed before etnering the game zone regardless of whether the gun has been there before or not and anything that is over will be turned away - which happens, regularly!

People not taking hits/talking corpses/aggressive behavior etc get a talking to, then they get sent back to the safe zone. I've rarely had to request someone be turfed from the site. Being "sent off" has often had the effect of embarassing the player enough that they go home of their own accord.

Safety Briefings have been given by myself and PK to every player entering the gamezone regardless of whether they have been there before or not. This one, I admit, has been a little lax due to the insistance of player to arrive ad-hoc throughout the day.

G3-Nut

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

IAs much as that may work ofr oyu, if everyone did that, airsoft would be ****ing muck and dead.

The point is, these people need to be banned, need to be punished, need to be sorted out.

I cannot believe that "firing squads" were for people not taking hits. OK so you have found a cheater, and your jsut going to shoot him? Grow balls and ban them.

If I catch someone with a few aces up their sleeve in poker cheating, I'd smash their face open, then the rest of the table would join in.
If I caught someone kicking their golf ball along the fairway, I'd pull them up, ring in to the clubhouse, that player would be disqualififed and put on suspension.
If someone in football two foot lunged me, theyd get a red card, 3 match ban, and then id smash their face in.

Are we seeing a pattern?

Why in airsoft, a sport I play competitively, should I have to put up with cheaters and hot guns and get that ****ing annoying reply " a its only for craic"

Sorry its not for craic, I do not play airsoft for fun all the time. I'm not going to Wales to touch willies with the lads, I'm going there to pit myself against the best. Yeah banter comes with everything, thats grand and good fun. But I'm competitive, I dont cheat.

Sunday we got thoroughly spanked by the ghosts, i didnt go rage, i shook hands, congratulated them and we had laughs after. During that game by god I was a raging bull, I was storming at them life after life trying to shoot as many as I could.

Maybe im the only person that you know, plays competitive games, competively. You this game is, one side agianst another, winners and losers, in the games. Thats the game, you dont stop half way and say " aw lads in fairness we ae beating you bad, come on we call it a draw". Maybe im the only one that thinks like this, and maybe im in the wrong game.

But there is the difference in how we look at it, you play competitively, i dont, i am not on a proper team, and due to my location i dont intend to...you are speaking as if i dont to anything about non hit takers, when i clearly said i go and notify the marshalls doc....i just dont get thick about it, i walk over, hang the b*stard, and continue playing, leaving the marshall to issue the punishment, as i have no say in it, so i dont use up 2 minutes of my consentration going haywire...

Know dont get me wrong, i admit it, if i played competitively, i would go seriously aggro with some of the **** ive seen,

but i dont, and i dont want some cheating wanker to ruin my day after a 2 and a half hour drive up, so i dont keep it in my head after it happens....

JonAnderton

Is there a particular style or game that gives itself over to cheaters. With the recent rise of MilSim style games which put a lot into tactics and missions as opposed to shooting and scooting, I was wondering if this would diminish cheaters or actually increase them, as being knocked out might make them miss parts of a larger game.

Boroimhe

Dread-Lock wrote: »

IMHO I don't think name calling will really sort this problem out.


I am 110% against cheaters and people using hot guns. Although I'm not sure having a big list on here of every cheater will do much. Although I do like the idea of blacklists being shared among sites as that way people have more to lose if they do cheat/use hot guns.

Even if you did do a list you would have to make a sort of wanted poster of them. As if you made a list how are people supposed to know who's who? You would need to ask for ID when people showed up on the site or something to that effect.


I like the idea of a blacklist I just don't know how you'd get it to work.

As site owners we know who you are, we already know who the cheaters are but most site owners are waiting for back up. We are here today saying that the back up is here! its time for us all to stop pondering to the **** that play this sport and to start taking care of our baby!

JonAnderton

Boroimhe wrote: »

As site owners we know who you are, we already know who the cheaters are but most site owners are waiting for back up. We are here today saying that the back up is here! its time for us all to stop pondering to the **** that play this sport and to start taking care of our baby!

Are you a site owner??.. If so, which one?

G3-Nut

JonAnderton wrote: »

Is there a particular style or game that gives itself over to cheaters. With the recent rise of MilSim style games which put a lot into tactics and missions as opposed to shooting and scooting, I was wondering if this would diminish cheaters or actually increase them, as being knocked out might make them miss parts of a larger game.

Yes and im sure many experienced players will agree with me here, games where there are no respawns make 3/4 of the players cheat....

I have witnessed a member of a well known team doing this myself....just because no respawns, made me sick...

I dont know about milsims....but i know on a normal day, when there are no respawns, its just pure madness, sometimes i just hide for most of the match, then i begin taking people out when there are only a small number left and there is lots of eyes on them

Boroimhe

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Speaking of HRTA and only of HRTA and only on the days I have been there (enough caveats?).

When I'm up, Pk or Neil you will see the following.

All guns are chronoed before etnering the game zone regardless of whether the gun has been there before or not and anything that is over will be turned away - which happens, regularly!

People not taking hits/talking corpses/aggressive behavior etc get a talking to, then they get sent back to the safe zone. I've rarely had to request someone be turfed from the site. Being "sent off" has often had the effect of embarassing the player enough that they go home of their own accord.

Safety Briefings have been given by myself and PK to every player entering the gamezone regardless of whether they have been there before or not. This one, I admit, has been a little lax due to the insistance of player to arrive ad-hoc throughout the day.

Same in The Warehouse Hive, although we have had people that even after being taken out of one game have continued to cheat (barred)!

What I want is when something like that happens in HRTA, Paul calls or pms us and lets us know: who, what, when and why so we can suspend them from our site aswell as Paul suspending them from HRTA. That way they will have nowhere to go and WILL quickly learn their lesson (or they will leave our sport for the better)!

Dread-Lock

Boroimhe wrote: »

As site owners we know who you are, we already know who the cheaters are but most site owners are waiting for back up. We are here today saying that the back up is here! its time for us all to stop pondering to the **** that play this sport and to start taking care of our baby!

If you know who they are then go for it, you have my full support. If I can help I will as I really can't stand cheaters.

And I would be all for an official blacklist shared by the sites and retailers, as I have nothing to fear...I don't cheat .

Boroimhe

JonAnderton wrote: »

Are you a site owner??.. If so, which one?

I own 1/3 of The Warehouse Jon!

TheDoc

Just to clear up, I am not now, have not or ever will have a pop at marshalls or their work. I will have a pop at someone doing a ****e job, but for the most part marshalls give up their days play to help run a gmae and it has to respected.

Previous comments were stating, there is so much ****e going on in sites, that marshalls cant be everywhere at once and catch everything going on. And it is very hard for them.

So in esscence, when they catch one, **** them out of the site.