Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

JonAnderton · 03-03-2009 8:59pm

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

I like to think the milsim games avoid cheating.

For a start ye get more dedicated players, people who know each other better, and they are there because they want a more realistic, better game.

Wednesdays used to be that, the team day or whatever it was called, it was the day to avoid weekend cmag warriors in bullet proof molle vests.

Cheaters waste their time, why bother playing?

Again, milsim and its smaller numbers of dedicated players wins out in my eyes.

That was my thoughts and experiences exactly...

G3-Nut · 03-03-2009 9:00pm

it really would be great to know you are entering a game with the chance of cheating being minimized:rolleyes:

TheDoc · 03-03-2009 9:01pm

I would be cautious about this though. You know yurself what a cheater is.

But if you pinged my fastmag on my belt, from the back, in the warehouse, with all that noise and i didnt take all 3 hits?

A) I wouldnt not feel the BB hitting the fastmag.

I wouldnt hear the BB it is such a loud place

In this scenario a player knows best, to shoot in the back. But obviously if you did this even ten times, all hitting the same spot on my fastmag, you cant call me a cheater for not taking it.

Me personally, well obviously i wouldnt feel it, all thats needed is " Hey doc, you got hit in the fastmag"

"ok marshall" off i go to respawn

Just be really careful you dont go gung ho, cause there is so much genuine instances where it happens.

G3-Nut · 03-03-2009 9:01pm

The Warehouse wrote: »

Lets not start going pc mad here G.

We are talking here to try and sort this mess out!

Im not going mad lol, it was a half arsed joke:rolleyes:

as for not feeling hits, i rely on my fellow players to let me know if i get hit and dont realise it, il say it here for you all to see, if im ever skirmishing with you, and you see me getting hit in the holster or something, let me know!!!

MAD Ozzie · 03-03-2009 9:02pm

Well its good to see the fair players are doing something.
We don't have these probs at Cork very often, because cheats get kicked off the site.
I must admit that in the past we did have some lads that where bullet proof boof heads,
but never again. 1 cheat can stuff the day for everyone, gives the site/club a bad name.
So for the sake of the big picture I would happily kick 1 player off the site or 10 players if need be.
1, it sends a message to others that we will not put up with cheats.
2, it makes a better site to play on for those that play by the rules.
3, we don't get a bad name from those that play fair.
4, the boof heads that got kicked don't come back unless they cop-on.

Its simple.
Play fair or don't play.

N.O.I.P. · 03-03-2009 9:05pm

Guys i genuinely don't see this as being too hard a problem to stamp out, that said its been so long since i was at a skirmish tht the problem could be bigger than i imagine.

So far we have heard from 2 marshalls from the warehouse, both of you guys are finacially involved in that particular venture and as a result it would be a lot easier for you to make the decision to chastise, send off or out right ban a player. Its your business what you say goes.

In the case of young master hivemind and a lot more besides

he is a player, he doesnt own a site, he doesn't work for a site, catching a player who continually refuses to take his hits may lead to said player being ejected from the game (the site if he keeps it up). In such a situation any volunteer marshall regardless of now well they handle stress and confrontation has the thought floating around in the back of their head "I could be screwing up business for this site". I've experienced this working as an RO and I can assure you its not a fun thought.

The solution however is simple (I hope

)
Each site comes up with a list of pre-approved marshalls, regular players that the site owner knows can be trusted to act in the best interests of the players,sport and venue.
It is made implicitly clear to each of these indiviuals that they were chosen for this role and that in their actions as marshall they have the full backing of every other marshall and the site owners as well.

Marshall can (and most likely already do) meet before a game starts in order to point out any known potential trouble makers.

The hot gun issue is a little more time consuming to deal with but not necessarily difficult.

As much and as often as possible guns should be checked prior to entering the field. Occasionally guns will slip through and as a result every player should be notified before the game commences that if it is suspected that they are using a hot gun during a game they will be led off the field and their gun will be chronoed.

It will be hard work. it will take time and it will mean that sites will need more Marshalls but if it cuts out cheating and the use of hot guns then its worth it.

Anyway I've been typing for too long and this whoel trying to be sensible thing is killing me so have at it lads tear this post apart

JonAnderton · 03-03-2009 9:05pm

If one person/team was willing to administer it, simple Excel spreadsheet privatly posted somewher with name, ID numbers (IAA,site,etc,) site, Infraction, date starting, date ending... The single point of contact is PM's/eMailed and updates it.. or allow the small group of sites to administer it themselves..

OzCam · 03-03-2009 9:07pm

We need to get an opinion from fayer, if we can drag him out from under the pile of books, about the legal issues (slander/libel etc) of doing a name-and-shame. I agree that it's tempting, needed and long overdue, but it's skating on thin ice legally.

There's possibly also an issue with someone being barred from a venue based on hearsay. I fully support The Warehouse and others barring people for repeated cheating or having hot guns, and everyone needs to follow their example, but if they mention a name to another site and the person is refused service there... I dunno what happens. Can the management "withdraw the invitation to trade" on the basis of information received or does the refused person have grounds to sue for discrimination? Or even defamation?

There's also the very inconvenient aspect that natural justice requires that someone who's accused of something has the right to know what they're accused of and be given a chance to defend themselves. If we set up some kind of kangaroo court, we're no better than they are.

I'm sure there's got to be a way to make dangerous players feel the consequences of their actions, but I think it needs a little bit of thought. For example, rugby union seems to manage it, but the GAA doesn't because their system has too many loopholes and get-outs. And you can't just set up a blacklist without a robust system behind it, you're opening yourself up to all kinds of trouble.

At least we have a broad consensus on the legalities and need to protect our sport this time around.

The Warehouse · 03-03-2009 9:07pm

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I would be cautious about this though. You know yurself what a cheater is.

But if you pinged my fastmag on my belt, from the back, in the warehouse, with all that noise and i didnt take all 3 hits?

A) I wouldnt not feel the BB hitting the fastmag.
I wouldnt hear the BB it is such a loud place

In this scenario a player knows best, to shoot in the back. But obviously if you did this even ten times, all hitting the same spot on my fastmag, you cant call me a cheater for not taking it.

Me personally, well obviously i wouldnt feel it, all thats needed is " Hey doc, you got hit in the fastmag"

"ok marshall" off i go to respawn

Just be really careful you dont go gung ho, cause there is so much genuine instances where it happens.

Point taken Doc, Do you remember the day I cheater checked you 8 times. You felt every one of them because I made sure that I hit you in places that you would feel it, if there is room for doubt then we will not blacklist you!

Hivemind187 · 03-03-2009 9:09pm

I remember way back when that the IAA looked into this (it was very early days, the first 2-3 months).

Some of the main snags you will come up against are;

1) What kind of system can you use to be sure that a cheating player is remembered correctly and that honest players are not mistaken for cheaters?

2) What will your data-protection liability be in recording such information as well as distributing it to other businesses?

3) How do you keep the costs and administration of such a system to a minimum?

4) What kind of an appeals process will you have in place?

5) How do you prevent abuse of the system by individuals/marshalls with a personal grudge?

These are just some of dozens of things that will need to be scrutinised with a view to legal expertise before any system can be implemented.

The Warehouse · 03-03-2009 9:09pm

JonAnderton wrote: »

If one person/team was willing to administer it, simple Excel spreadsheet posted somewher with name, ID numbers (IAA,site,etc,) site, Infraction, date starting, date ending... The single point of contact is PM's/eMailed and updates it.. or allow the small group of sites to administer it themselves..

It would have to be between site owners as teams/players would have a bias opinion!

iceage · 03-03-2009 9:10pm

Maybe a pointless suggestion, but the "3 strikes an your out" rule. Does it have any place here?

The Warehouse · 03-03-2009 9:11pm

OzCam wrote: »

We need to get an opinion from fayer, if we can drag him out from under the pile of books, about the legal issues (slander/libel etc) of doing a name-and-shame. I agree that it's tempting, needed and long overdue, but it's skating on thin ice legally.

There's possibly also an issue with someone being barred from a venue based on hearsay. I fully support The Warehouse and others barring people for repeated cheating or having hot guns, and everyone needs to follow their example, but if they mention a name to another site and the person is refused service there... I dunno what happens. Can the management "withdraw the invitation to trade" on the basis of information received or does the refused person have grounds to sue for discrimination? Or even defamation?

There's also the very inconvenient aspect that natural justice requires that someone who's accused of something has the right to know what they're accused of and be given a chance to defend themselves. If we set up some kind of kangaroo court, we're no better than they are.

I'm sure there's got to be a way to make dangerous players feel the consequences of their actions, but I think it needs a little bit of thought. For example, rugby union seems to manage it, but the GAA doesn't because their system has too many loopholes and get-outs. And you can't just set up a blacklist without a robust system behind it, you're opening yourself up to all kinds of trouble.

At least we have a broad consensus on the legalities and need to protect our sport this time around.

All fair points Bernard, when we get to making this system the IAA will be involved and any legal issues they see will be addressed!

JonAnderton · 03-03-2009 9:11pm

The Warehouse wrote: »

It would have to be between site owners as teams/players would have a bias opinion!

Sorry, I meant sites instead of teams.. sorry for the confusion

Or a private forum with the posts 'subject' being the persons name and ID and the date it ends and the message body containing other details. Sites who posted the names are resposnible for deleting them when expired (if they do) On game days, sites just print off the list of posts...

iceage · 03-03-2009 9:16pm

Hivemind187 wrote: »

I remember way back when that the IAA looked into this (it was very early days, the first 2-3 months).

Some of the main snags you will come up against are;

1) What kind of system can you use to be sure that a cheating player is remembered correctly and that honest players are not mistaken for cheaters?

2) What will your data-protection liability be in recording such information as well as distributing it to other businesses?

3) How do you keep the costs and administration of such a system to a minimum?

4) What kind of an appeals process will you have in place?

5) How do you prevent abuse of the system by individuals/marshalls with a personal grudge?

These are just some of dozens of things that will need to be scrutinised with a view to legal expertise before any system can be implemented.

WOW! I was just gonna post that! I remember that too, and it fizzled out into nothing, there were also few cases if my ole memory serves me well, some mention of particular players from particular sites and ban lists.

Stercus Accidit · 03-03-2009 9:17pm

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I would be cautious about this though. You know yurself what a cheater is.

But if you pinged my fastmag on my belt, from the back, in the warehouse, with all that noise and i didnt take all 3 hits?

A) I wouldnt not feel the BB hitting the fastmag.
I wouldnt hear the BB it is such a loud place

In this scenario a player knows best, to shoot in the back. But obviously if you did this even ten times, all hitting the same spot on my fastmag, you cant call me a cheater for not taking it.

Me personally, well obviously i wouldnt feel it, all thats needed is " Hey doc, you got hit in the fastmag"

"ok marshall" off i go to respawn

Just be really careful you dont go gung ho, cause there is so much genuine instances where it happens.

You gucci lads have too much on ye and get confused by hits!

Plastic magazine holders spirnging out stanags left right and centre.

I don't even have a pair of boots ffs!

That I wear camo at all, is a miracle

The Warehouse · 03-03-2009 9:21pm

N.O.I.P. wrote: »

Guys i genuinely don't see this as being too hard a problem to stamp out, that said its been so long since i was at a skirmish tht the problem could be bigger than i imagine.

So far we have heard from 2 marshalls from the warehouse, both of you guys are finacially involved in that particular venture and as a result it would be a lot easier for you to make the decision to chastise, send off or out right ban a player. Its your business what you say goes.

Its harder for us (its only Brían aka Boroimhe posting here) because we have to face the financial consequences of barring them but at that after we barred the trouble makers we start getting more and more sound players.

N.O.I.P. wrote: »

In the case of young master hivemind and a lot more besides he is a player, he doesnt own a site, he doesn't work for a site, catching a player who continually refuses to take his hits may lead to said player being ejected from the game (the site if he keeps it up). In such a situation any volunteer marshall regardless of now well they handle stress and confrontation has the thought floating around in the back of their head "I could be screwing up business for this site". I've experienced this working as an RO and I can assure you its not a fun thought.

But if he is marshalling then he is empowered by the site owner to make the necessary calls!

N.O.I.P. wrote: »

The solution however is simple (I hope )
Each site comes up with a list of pre-approved marshalls, regular players that the site owner knows can be trusted to act in the best interests of the players,sport and venue.
It is made implicitly clear to each of these indiviuals that they were chosen for this role and that in their actions as marshall they have the full backing of every other marshall and the site owners as well.

I think site owners should spend the cash and only have marshalls on their site that are employed by them.

N.O.I.P. wrote: »

Marshall can (and most likely already do) meet before a game starts in order to point out any known potential trouble makers.

We do and I'm sure most other sites do!

N.O.I.P. wrote: »

The hot gun issue is a little more time consuming to deal with but not necessarily difficult.

As much and as often as possible guns should be checked prior to entering the field. Occasionally guns will slip through and as a result every player should be notified before the game commences that if it is suspected that they are using a hot gun during a game they will be led off the field and their gun will be chronoed.

Random spot checks should be done every now and then also!

N.O.I.P. wrote: »

It will be hard work. it will take time and it will mean that sites will need more Marshalls but if it cuts out cheating and the use of hot guns then its worth it.

Anyway I've been typing for too long and this whoel trying to be sensible thing is killing me so have at it lads tear this post apart

I agree!!!

TheDoc · 03-03-2009 9:21pm

You knwo I'm one for second chances.

I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

If a blacklist happens.

Step 1:
Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
Stept 2:
player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
Step 3:
If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
Step 4:
This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
Step 5:
Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

Step 6:
Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
Step 7:
See step 5
Step 8:
Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

iceage · 03-03-2009 9:29pm

Anybody can make a mistake in the heat of it...3 strikes n your out! nicely put Doc...maybe more stikes on your list but essentially the same idea.:)

Boroimhe · 03-03-2009 9:31pm

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

You knwo I'm one for second chances.

I remember the young lad in the warehouse a few weeks back, was cheating. He was like 15, his first game and maybe he thought " you know if i just dont take this hit, i can win the game for my team"

He was caught cheating, put out in front of everyone, and was sent to sit out.

You could see he was gutted, and you could see he was genuinely upset with his mistake.

The marshalls went over after the game, had a little chat ( little guy was really gutted and sorry) and let him back in. If you shouted " incoming bb" at him, he would have taken a hit. I've seen him since then play, and he has been straight as an arrow. He learned his lesson, and he will be better for it in the long run.

If a blacklist happens.

Step 1:
Player is caught cheating, they are immediatly expelled from the game.
Stept 2:
player is talked to, and warned, allowed back in start up of next game.
Step 3:
If player is caught again, they are tossed from the site, and name is recorded.
Step 4:
This players name is added to the blacklist, viewed by all site owners. This player receives a two weeks site ban.

This entails the player is not allowed to participate in airsoft games for two weeks, on sites of course that agree to the named scheme.
Step 5:
Upon ban lift, player is allowed back in to play, his name still on the blacklist, but listed under some category " back from suspension". This player is verbally warned that a close eye will be kept

Step 6:
Should he/she cheat again, they are expelled from airsoft sites for 3 months.
Step 7:
See step 5
Step 8:
Should player cheat again on his third occasion, he should be ****ing battered, but obviously, in this case, he will be jsut be airsoft site banned indefinetly.

Players who return from a site ban will have a period of 4 weeks to go without incident to be released from the state of "monitored".

Same goes for people caught with hot guns.

That is an excellent idea Doc, I think that is exactly what we need!

Now all we need is for a few other sites to sign up and we are flying!

ED E · 03-03-2009 9:32pm

Ok, I've only skimmed this thread after the first page, long posts are eye murders (I'm looking at you hive:p).

Anyways, first off, just to be fair, HRTA didnt start cheater checking as Hive's post could be interpreted, its been done for years(eg in Pred before HRTA opened). I believe its a good system and it worked the one time I've seen it in use down south(might be two...was it done at GI?).

Secondly, two marshalls isnt enough(bar maybe the warehouse and HRTA). My first skirmish had probably close two 40 players, there were 4 marshalls and the site op. This may be bad for you're budget but it will ensure good games and return customers. Marshalls arent super hereos, they cant be everywhere.

Also, honor over victory. If I see a teamate get hit and he doesnt realise/doesnt take it, I'll let him know. If he refuses, leave him be and tell the site owner. When tangos cheat, call for a hit check with the marshall and leave it at that. Under no circumstance take it up in game with the other player. This will just cause arguments and spoil everyones day. If its blatant, stick up your hand and pop over to the marshall.

Last point, and I know other disagree with it, but I strongly beleive in hidden player marshalls. Each site has a big enough weekly bunch so that they could select well known honest players descretely but let the entire group know that they are in game. They shouldnt have to do anything, the fact that they are silently watching should be enough, and if needs be they could call in cheaters via radio allowing them to stay unknown while the marshalls repremand the problematic players.

Actually, one more thing. Banned lists, make them big! Have them on the wall right inside the door, make it clear that you aren't joking from the go.

Thats my 2 cents,
Lethal

Tov · 03-03-2009 9:32pm

G3-Nut wrote: »

i rely on my fellow players to let me know if i get hit and dont realise it, il say it here for you all to see, if im ever skirmishing with you, and you see me getting hit in the holster or something, let me know!!!

I think this is a very important thing to encourage. If I see a teammate getting hit, and they don't call it, I tell them that they're hit.
Either they didn't feel it or hear it, in which case problem solved, or else they just decided not to take it, in which case pointing out to them that you saw them get hit will sometimes embarrass them into calling it.

I know myself that there are times when I might be hit and genuinely not notice it, so I would also like anyone playing with me to let me know if I've been hit. The last thing I would want is to cheat, or to get a reputation as a cheater, so I'll be happy to take any hits that someone points out to me.

Perhaps a bit more self regulation among teammates could reduce the problem, even if it won't solve it entirely.

Stercus Accidit · 03-03-2009 9:34pm

You'd need to consider what is an obvious accident though, in the case of an accident, an honest believeable one, no name should be taken, but a mental note for if it happens again.

There has to be some trust in players all the same.

TheDoc · 03-03-2009 9:35pm

Yeah, mistakes happen, and some people cheat thinking " well i can win this game for the team" especially new player, seen it happen.

Its the constant cheaters that get on my tits.

JonAnderton · 03-03-2009 9:36pm

I think it depends on the circumstances of the claims. If someone is not taking hits because of their kit, then thats one thing (but should that mean that this person gets away with that excuse everytime-"Sorry marshal, It's this plated vest you see, I can't feel it, good job you saw it") Not in the case mentioned above, but you can see how it could be used. I shot someone in a mag pouch on his side once, he didn't take the hit. I thought '****er, take the hit' but then I thought 1) He probably didn't feel it and 2) If I had 'really' made that shot he probably wouldn't have been taken out anyway.. so I carried on

If someone is blatently seen being shot in the chest (or the back running away...

.. He knows who I'm talking about) and you know theycan feel it.. then not so many chances.

Boroimhe · 03-03-2009 9:36pm

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Ok, I've only skimmed this thread after the first page, long posts are eye murders (I'm looking at you hive:p).

Anyways, first off, just to be fair, HRTA didnt start cheater checking as Hive's post could be interpreted, its been done for years(eg in Pred before HRTA opened). I believe its a good system and it worked the one time I've seen it in use down south(might be two...was it done at GI?).

Secondly, two marshalls isnt enough(bar maybe the warehouse and HRTA). My first skirmish had probably close two 40 players, there were 4 marshalls and the site op. This may be bad for you're budget but it will ensure good games and return customers. Marshalls arent super hereos, they cant be everywhere.

Also, honor over victory. If I see a teamate get hit and he doesnt realise/doesnt take it, I'll let him know. If he refuses, leave him be and tell the site owner. When tangos cheat, call for a hit check with the marshall and leave it at that. Under no circumstance take it up in game with the other player. This will just cause arguments and spoil everyones day. If its blatant, stick up your hand and pop over to the marshall.

Last point, and I know other disagree with it, but I strongly beleive in hidden player marshalls. Each site has a big enough weekly bunch so that they could select well known honest players descretely but let the entire group know that they are in game. They shouldnt have to do anything, the fact that they are silently watching should be enough, and if needs be they could call in cheaters via radio allowing them to stay unknown while the marshalls repremand the problematic players.

Actually, one more thing. Banned lists, make them big! Have them on the wall right inside the door, make it clear that you aren't joking from the go.

Thats my 2 cents,
Lethal

I agree with everything you said except the hidden player marshalls, I wouldn't have anyone that isn't employed by me marshall a game in our site. I want our marshalls accountable to us (and public opnion).

o1s1n · 03-03-2009 9:36pm

Can we stop battering people now? Thanks.

Busta Hyman · 03-03-2009 9:36pm

iceage wrote: »

Anybody can make a mistake in the heat of it...3 strikes n your out! nicely put Doc...maybe more stikes on your list but essentially the same idea.:)

ofc they can i tend to find i feel more hits than most because of my desire to wear tshirts in the warehouse but i have the theory "why use one bb when 27 do the same job" if i feel ppl arnt taking there hits i do know at some point your gonna get a situation where you can get a good hose on them 3 - 4 secs or until they raise there hands

Boroimhe · 03-03-2009 9:37pm

Tov wrote: »

I think this is a very important thing to encourage. If I see a teammate getting hit, and they don't call it, I tell them that they're hit.
Either they didn't feel it or hear it, in which case problem solved, or else they just decided not to take it, in which case pointing out to them that you saw them get hit will sometimes embarrass them into calling it.

I know myself that there are times when I might be hit and genuinely not notice it, so I would also like anyone playing with me to let me know if I've been hit. The last thing I would want is to cheat, or to get a reputation as a cheater, so I'll be happy to take any hits that someone points out to me.

Perhaps a bit more self regulation among teammates could reduce the problem, even if it won't solve it entirely.

Tov just you being an honest player won't do (although fair play). We need a more far reaching system

N.O.I.P. · 03-03-2009 9:38pm

The Warehouse wrote: »

Its harder for us (its only Brían aka Boroimhe posting here) because we have to face the financial consequences of barring them but at that after we barred the trouble makers we start getting more and more sound players.

I'd have to disagree, Its most definitely hard to a site owner to have to ban someone, as you said their are financial implications. However if you are a player who has volunteerd to marshall then you could be forcing a site owner to face those consequences. I'd rather be the guy running a site saying "I can do without that cheaters money" than the player thinking "I ban this guy and Brian is going to be going without some of his income"

But if he is marshalling then he is empowered by the site owner to make the necessary calls!

True, but its something that needs to be made clear to people. To ask someone to marshall your site shows respect and confidence in that person. To sit them down and say "When you are out there marshalling any decision that you need to make is fully suported by ME the site owner" instills them with the confidence to get out there and do the job properly.

I think site owners should spend the cash and only have marshalls on their site that are employed by them.

That may not be a financially viable option for all sites.

I agree!!!

You agree I've been typing to long!!!
I don't need to take this abuse from you, Ive got dozens of people dying to abuse me

Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

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