Time for airsoft lovers to take action!

TheDoc

The Warehouse wrote: »

Lads, just to make this clear.

This thread is in no way a dig at Take Aim or Rathbeggan.

Take Aim are the first ones to bother making an Irish airsoft mag and to make the first massive Irish airsoft event, this was a great day, we saw all the biggest teams and the most serious airsofters under one roof for a common goal (to kick each others ass).

Rathbeggan is an excellent site, Dave is a sound guy and a great addition to our sport.

This thread is aimed at the teams/players that are constantly cheating and using hot guns. While we are at it we can make this system able to catch site owners and retailers that are encouraging such behaviour.

G-Tac, Rathbeggan, Fingal, HRTA and The Warehouse have signed up so far. Take Aim have said they will gladly support any move to stamp out these muppets and the IAA have said they will help organize and build this new system.

It is happening so cheaters/dodgy retailers/dodgy site owners be warned, we the honest airsofters will not have it anymore. No more wink wink deals!

To be fair the last place I would even accuse is Rathbeggan or Take AIM. The lads were up to their tits organizing what was, an extremely great day. And any issue that was made aware to Dave, he acted on straight away.

This is a general topic, and its widespread, and it is a big problem. And in a way, for both the Take AIM lads, as organising their first event, and Dave, a new site owner, I think they have had their eyes opened slightly. There is no room from nievity in this game. I'm off the opinion now everyone is guilty, thats how bad it is. But the guys will take this comments, and run a **** free event next time. But I want to state again, the take aim cup, was a fantastic day, I personally do not think i suffered anything that annoyed me ( that much). And for what was essentially their first crack at it, it was a big sucess. And I greatly acknowledge their efforts in making a great day, and some **** that happend, was out of their hands, that they could not sort out. It was down to sneaky ****ers on the field.

It is also scary to think of the legal scaremongering that can come from this ****. I know for a fact, a **** load of incidents. I could right now name sites, players, shops etc, that allow the use of hot guns, support the idea of hot guns, allow cheaters run rampant etc.

Moggser earlier named a site, that I believe I was present at, and will not be seeing my business again. And I will not be playing skirmishes alongside that team that arrived.

Bren, I know your saying well lets name them, everyone who knows me, knows, I will tell everyone here, when who what or where **** has gone down. And anyone who defends themselves, are ****ing liars, cause every incident has a witness.

My regular sites are HRTA and Warehouse. I've tried nearly all other sites around.

So heres me loosing the plot now, I'm going to drop a few opinions. And I would like to make abundantly clear, and I mean, seriously clear, that in now way is this actually a reflection on the site owners, the site or marshalling. The cheating I am going to mention happend, in areas where no marshall was present, and would never get caught.

I'm taking a big step here in actually naming sites, this is a big plunge. But please do not freak out, as like I'm saying again, this does not reflect the sites weekly play. It is merely just experiences I personally have had, as a regular airsoft skirmisher.

If you want to have a hissy, fair enough, but this happend, so its no lie.

Fingal I went to once, a pissy rainy night and I wasnt impressed, but thats my opinion, and I've heard there has been some seriously good work done there. Transport is an issue for me, so I cant get out much, but I will get out soon to try out the new layout. On my evening there, was not one spot of cheating, my gun got chroned and it was all gravy.

HRTA, my first ever site. Went through a phase late last year of serious cheating issues. Last few visits has not been abundantly obvious, and I hear the recent addition of the marshalling team of neil,pk and hivemind has seriously eradicated cheating. A site I hold close to my heart, and I take it very personally when people cheat. Anytime I'm seen with a gun paul doesnt recognise I get chronoed. And I get random spot checked from time to time. Hop up off, .2g bb.I also get cheater checked during my play there.

Simcom Sports. Good site, nice lads who run it. Myself and the players on my side, felt there was a serious amount of cheating going down on the opposing side. Marshalls could not catch them in the act, fair enough. My gun was chronoed with hop off and .2g

Drogheda. Was not impressed with my first visit overall, bad experience. Second time down recently, the site is awesome, the terrain is absolutely fantastic. Unfortunately a core present who regularly cheat. Marshalls cannot shoulder blame, the site is so big, the cheating was happening in spots the players knew they could get away with it. Players there need to big up and sort it out, or a fantastic site will go to waste. first occasion my gun was chronoed. Second occasion it wasnt, but I actually asked one player ( think marhsall) to witness my gun going through. Not asked about hop up.

Warehouse. Tight compact site, marshalls have a good eye on everyone. Cheating goes on, alot of innocent ones though, a heck of alot of rick o shays. The marshalls do a sterling job, take no ****, any cheating, turfed out. Regular cheater checks. Chronoed every time, hop up fully off, bb's of .2g

Predator. Huge combat area, massive, so much so you might not see a marshall for hours. Epic honour. No cheating in my 3 visits. Joy to play in. Gun chronoed, hop up off, .2g bb

Galway. Only being once, gathering. A tremendous site, really enjoyable, did not notice one big of cheating. The size of terrain makes it hard for marshalls to be everywhere, but their was a great sense of pride and honour. Gun chronoed, hop up off, .2g bb

Rathbeggan. First visit Sunday. All the games I played were intense, honourable. Minor issue in first game, minor issue in second game. Both were resovled quick enough. New site so some stuff to learn, but has the foundation to be a top class site. Gun chronoed with hop up not checked nor bb weight checked. Dave was made aware and I believe the situation was immediatly rectified.

Every instance I have named. I could name 100's more. But it wasnt the site owners fault, it was not the marshalls fault. One stage in drogheda I noticed cheating happening in the gorse, when the marshalls were with the brunt of the fighting in the quary area. You cant expect them to do anything. Impossible.

We all, as players, need to suck it in. We need to face confrontation. We need to witness these incidents, and report them. Marshalls need a dig out, and it starts with players. No logner am I going to watch Bb's hit my arm, and when I turn around see them smashing off a teammate and him to say " its ok, they hit of me not you". If I have to stop games completely to get it sorted, it is going to happen. I am going to become the anti christ.

Because I am now of the frim believe, **** cheaters. I am not going to continue to hate airsoft, and not look foward to going out to play. I'm not going to leave thousands of euros of kit lie redundant, because of arsehole snot bothered to play the game.

It doesnt happen in any other sport, why the hell has happend here.

And on reflection on the epic warning I gave before mentioning sites, no need, they werent even actual incidents, if i named cheating incidents in my head from the last 2 months skirmishing this thread would hit 20 pages long.

ravey

Well im bleary eyed at this stage, ive read this thread from start to finish and have registered every opinion expressed.
This evening myself and Young Ravey enjoyed a bloody brilliant evening session at the warehouse where we saw no cheating and only felt the registered level of pain!
This thread was brought to my attention there, hence the time now and the bleary goggles.
Before I first gamed, and before i considered introducing my son to the sport of airsoft, i read and researched as much as i could find.
What attracted me about the whole thing was this idea that it was a game of honour. Fair play and hail fellow well met.
It was only when we moved to opening Rathbeggan as an airsoft venue that i realised that this was obviously just wishful bull**** on the part of the small percentage of really honest players.
For ten years we have had to deal with a persistent but thankfully small number of fishing cheaters, mainly those wanting to nick fish, easily dealt with as its just straightforward theft.
The dismay we feel at the level of cheating going on in airsoft is pretty annoying.
I have taken a huge leap in terms of my business and livelihood, to open as an airsoft venue. The risks are substantial, and the thought that some overpowered pr*** could actually get me arrested and ruin my personal reputation is pretty annoying.
With that in mind, i will be running along with a group sites policy, along with a second chrono which will enable us to check guns at both game entry gates, and i will be making it abundantly clear that anyone cheating at Rathbeggan is rippin the .... out of me!
The joule issue will be sorted as Shiva says, but the cheating issue is up to everyone.
I have no doubt that i will be saying goodbye to some customers, but theres no point in having them if it drives others away.
We have to sort this issue out with maybe a signed code of conduct for players where you can lose you code badge or something.
Its bad business for all if the entire community dont hop on this issue of cheating.
Its a game of honour. (see the dictionary for the meaning of honour!)

-PornStar-

I don't understand why people think spot checks are difficult to do (Not having a go, just really don't understand it).

http://www.fire-support.co.uk/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=1206

That chronograph is bloody tiny (50mm x 150mm). As well as that, its cheap and its reliable. Its small enough, and cheap enough for a site to be able to have a few to hand out to the marshal's at the start of the day.

The biggest problem seems to be people managing to sneak guns with crazy fps, onto the skirmish field. Surely if it is as bad as people say, then simply turning the hop up off wont have that big of an effect on the performance. Can a hop up really gimp your AEG by 40 or 50 fps?

Why bother getting people to turn their hop up off, just for spot checks. After doing this for a while, I imagine it would become easy for a marshal to judge the actual fps. Especially if they chrono'd the gun at the start of the game (With the hop up off).

You don't even need to get people to change ammo. Just ask them the weight they are using. That chrono I linked lets you easily change the ammo weight being used, and will output the result in Joules if needed.

This process will take the marshal 10 seconds to ask what ammo type the player is using, and set up the chrono. Then he will disturb the player for 20 seconds at most, testing the gun.

If you are concerned about a player lying about the ammo weight he/she is using. Just wait until the player has emptied a mag before approaching them. If each marshal carried a speed loader full of .2g bb's, they could ask for the empty mag and easily put a few bb's in to test. Again that's only a few seconds out of the players game.

A minute or two of the players time is a small price to pay to ensure he/she is not breaking the law.

So as I said, why is this difficult?

As for cheating /spit.

Pred_Bull

I've read over this thread with some interest.

As a marshal at PCG, believe me when I say as marshals we try our best to sort cheating out on the spot and deal with it in a manner appropriate. However, a common problem that many sites face (not just PCG) is that players all too often attempt to take the law into thier own hands.

As theDOC said, at the likes of PCG you can go a while without seeing a marshal (needless to say we are still about and limit the game area size to how many marshals we have on that day) but the important thing to remember is that marshals are notified on the spot of problems.

Allow me to present an example.

In the first instance, we have a simple hit dispute. Player who made the shot calls marshal over. Marshal in question observes player who was "hit". Player fires another volley. BBs ping around the player in question, but a hit has not yet been made. The marshal is right beside the player, but said player is too focused on the game to notice the marshal. A third volley of shots is made, one BB glances the back of the players vest and he instantly calls the hit. On turning around, he exclaims about not seeing the marshal, smiles all around and a shouting match avoided.

Second instance. Similar in nature, player is firing into a bush, not hitting player. This time, instead of calling a marshal, starts shouting. Marshal reminds player to watch his language. Player settles down and continues shooting at player. He's doing a mighty good job at teaching some trees a good lesson, but still isn't hitting said player. Goes off on one again. Is sent to the safe zone to cool off. Later on in the day, honesty shot is taken on said player. Did he take it? No. Done for the day.

As a marshal there's only one thing that almost grates me as much as people blatantly cheating. And that's people shouting "take your hits you *insert expletive*"


At Red Hammer, I made it quite clear in the briefing that cheating and ill will between players was zero tolerance. I did not have to personally intervene with anything player related that day. Long and short, so long as players are reminded of the policy in question, it'll reduce the crap you need to put up with 10 fold.

However, it's also important to know when to use discretion. MOLLE vests, kevlar lids, heavy duty BDUs and pure adrenaline often need to be factored in. I've heard a lot of people start on players who genuinely did not feel or hear it. It does happen. 9/10 just tell these people they've been hit if you see them and they take it no problem and often apologise. But when not in visual range of a marshal, rather than using common sense and putting one or two more shots down on said individual, some players will start screaming thier head off or simply hold down on the trigger, both needless and disgusting behaviour.

Yes it's vital that cheating is taken care of, but it's also vital that the approach to dealing with it is not disproportionate.

Spetzcong

While I agree with and fully support the idea of blacklisting players who consistantly cheat or try to use illegal guns, a thought occurred to me about the implications of such a blacklist, will barring certain players from all reputable sites encourage them to engage in illegal skirmishing on un-sanctioned land there-by putting our sport into further jeopardy?

Hivemind187

Spetzcong wrote: »

While I agree with and fully support the idea of blacklisting players who consistantly cheat or try to use illegal guns, a thought occurred to me about the implications of such a blacklist, will barring certain players from all reputable sites encourage them to engage in illegal skirmishing on un-sanctioned land there-by putting our sport into further jeopardy?

Good point.

Logicially, they have demonstrated that they have little if any concern for the rules so it's quite likely they would.

G3-Nut

very good point spetscong....this whole idea needs to be thoroughly thought through before applying it

OzCam

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Good point.
Logicially, they have demonstrated that they have little if any concern for the rules so it's quite likely they would.

In which case, it's time for the Big Blue Team with the stealth Mondeos to take their toys away. I doubt they'll get any sympathy.


My policy on hits is that if I feel it, hear it or see it I'll call a hit. If I didn't, I won't. Besides, you'll often hear me say "Ouch" instead of "Hit", so there's rarely any doubt.

And you do actually have to hit your target - spraying BBs in the general direction doesn't count - which is why I usually assume I haven't hit the other player yet unless he's being blatant about it.

Ass

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Report dodgey sites to the IAA, and don't play there anymore.

I'd have demanded my money back in that situation.


The places I play I trust, I often know the players I'm playing with and don't worry bout this very much, but in this case, you were right to contact the IAA.

It's exactly these sort of assholes that caused our near ban a while back, have no sympathy for them and go to the IAA, who will sort them or report them to the gardai.

Yeah, because the IAA are an authority on airsoft...

Don't be lazy report them to the gardaí. The IAA can't do anything you can do yourself.

extremetaz

Ass wrote: »

Don't be lazy report them to the gardaí. The IAA can't do anything you can do yourself.

If the situation arises that a particular site (official or otherwise) is flaunting the law as opposed to just particular players then you may have a point here - however it is still better to report to the IAA and have them go to the Gardaí as a unified voice than the report unilaterally. The whole reason for the existence of the IAA is to represent the concerns of the community to the powers that be - one loud unified voice rather than hundreds of tiny whispers.

I'm not saying don't go to the gardaí on an individual level if you see fit, merely that you should most certainly inform the IAA as well.

TerrorFirmer

Are there particular retailers known for selling hot guns? I've never had any of my guns chrono'd, as I - perhaps naively - assumed that they'd all be downgraded. I'd die if I was at a skirmish, was randomly chrono'd and was told to **** off with my hot gun.

Busta Hyman

is there any atmospheric conditions that can affect a gun fireing good 1 min and hot the next. what would happen if local gardai turned up at a site and observed chronoing for illegal guns?

andrewkeena

I haven’t had a chance to read through all the post yet but I would support any system that would help remove cheating from the sport before it rots the sport altogether and before the good honest players of the sport are lost.

Doc’s suggestion I thought was very good and fair

Credit to the guys for starting this thread and stepping up to the mark to try and get a process in place that will make our sport be what it should be.

Turncoat

Masada wrote: »

Ive witnessed pretty much the same myself moggser.
A guy i know got shot with a sniper rifle once and knew there was something dodgey about the power of it since he was quite a distance away. rather than go on a hissey fit he waited until they were back in the safezone and asked the guy for a look at it "wink wink" then went and stuck a round down the chrono in the safezone. the result was in the 420 range and after pointing this out to the fella in charge he was told and i quote " ahh yeah, thats just coz it has a new spring, it'll bed in once its used a bit".

I was the one who got hit. Since then, I havn't and will never step onto that site again. But that experience has taught me one thing - I always chrono my gun before skirmishing it irrespective of the fact wether a site owner asks me to do so or not. Even when I buy AEG's and GBB's I ask the retailer to chrono it. Shiva can attest to it when I bought my plastica from him I told him of this incident and asked him to chrono the AEG which he had no problem doing. I do this because I don't want to be labelled as someone who toes the line. I think that it is not just the responsibility of the IAA, IASRA, other retailers or site owners to make sure that all guns are in the legal limit but it falls upon every player. At the end of the day it's your reputation on the line. Personally, I'd stop playing rather than being blacklisted for using hot guns or being branded as a cheater.

If the retailers and players who have far more experience than me can devise a system of keeping this in check, I will gladly support them. Just let me know and I will sign on the dotted line so that a record of my gun's performance can be maintained.

The Warehouse

Just to let everyone know Drogheda airsoft has signed up to this system aswell they (like the rest of us) will be waiting for the meeting to bash it out.

Thats every site in the east coast and the biggest site in the west coast in.

Tigger

i'd like to point out that out of the 4 aegs bought in ireland off irish retailers only one was in spec .a tm p90

now i was looked after and all but i have bought a chrono to keep a eye on things after that

i was heart broken when i drove from sligo to hrta to be told that both the aegs i had brought were hot

i think every player should have a chrono

The Warehouse

Tigger wrote: »

i'd like to point out that out of the 4 aegs bought in ireland off irish retailers only one was in spec . tm p90

When this system is made you will be asked to sign to that effect and the retailer in question will be prosecuted!

Tigger

The Warehouse wrote: »

When this system is made you will be asked to sign to that effect and the retailer in question will be prosecuted!

i down grade aegs all the time for people and they are all bought in ireland from propper irish retailers

and i won't sign anything to stuff up anyone


but i do feel taht many players expect that their gear will be ok and then its not

i feel its a quality control issue rather than anything sinister

also i believe that its as hive said a teething issue

but this is what happened for me;
i was tol' my aeg was over
ione yoke had a quick release spriong i was gifted a new spring and away i went

now the issue here is with players then putting the harder spring back in as far as i can tell

thats wrong

hoplite

Good to see this initiative. Like some of the previous posters I am very put off by cheating and also at the other end of the spectrum with players who are arrogant enough to think they hit everything they aim at and start roaring abuse. Be interesting to see what impact we see over the next few months this has my full support.

Rhinocharge

Turncoat wrote: »

If the retailers and players who have far more experience than me can devise a system of keeping this in check, I will gladly support them. Just let me know and I will sign on the dotted line so that a record of my gun's performance can be maintained.

It's quite simple. We offer all our customers the opportunity to chronograph any of the guns we sell. We teach them the correct way to chronograph their guns ( hop up off ). If every retailer did this as standard then there wouldn't be an issue with overpowered guns. We then sell the gun they tested, not one from the vault.

Quality control is time consuming but efficent. We check everyone of our guns before we put them on sale, that's why none of our guns are sold in the plastic shrink wrap. Best practice, means a honest retailer.

Upgrading guns is a different issue, realistically we as a community must agree not to advertise, sell or purchase higher power springs. It's an easy concept, don't break the law. Those caught doing so should be reported to the authorities.

Hivemind187

Rhinocharge wrote: »

Upgrading guns is a different issue, realistically we as a community must agree not to advertise, sell or purchase higher power springs. It's an easy concept, don't break the law. Those caught doing so should be reported to the authorities.

All well and good until you have a piece thats shooting 200 on a 100m/s spring and needs a little more welly - perfectly legally - to make up for degradation caused by other modifications.

Remember, the law says "muzzle energy" not whats generated by the spring, cylinder etc etc.

The Warehouse

Tigger wrote: »

i down grade aegs all the time for people and they are all bought in ireland from propper irish retailers

and i won't sign anything to stuff up anyone.

Then why bother trying to run a proper site/retail outlet when there are people out there that won't even stand up against the dodgy ones? Why don't we all just sell/rent hot guns or not bother chronoing if players could care less and we still get paid.

This is the whole point of this system, to give the power to the players so they can help govern their sport and keep it fun, fair, legal & safe!

Puding

restricting the type of springs for sale would never work for a number of reasons, a aegs joule output is determined by the combination of all its components,

i would want a 150 spring because im making a supper high rof aeg with a short stroke

where as i can also make a aeg with a 100 or 90 way of the limit by the using the right combination of parts

i feel its a quality control issue rather than anything sinister

how can it be quality control when we know whole lines of aegs are over the limit but still retailers import and do not downgrade, its cheaper to deal with the 1 out of 10 that people bring back than to downgrade them all at the start,

a quality control issue would be, ow look a TM p90 is shooting 340 stock,

Tigger

The Warehouse wrote: »

Then why bother trying to run a proper site/retail outlet when there are people out there that won't even stand up against the dodgy ones?

look i'm say it clearly without spelling mistakes
the issue is that once an aeg has been found to be over it should be undered
once this is done thats the end
but
if people are faking through the on site chronoing and swapping springs or guns or whatever thats wrong

i have never run a airsoft retail shop so i wouldn't presume to know whats entailed

and btw i have bought off only iaa affiliated and my friends have bought off only iaa affiliated retailers

Why don't we all just sell/rent hot guns or not bother chronoing if players could care less and we still get paid.

i donno but if you accidentally gave me a hot gun i sure as fuck wouldn't grass you up
i'd tell you and thats all

i do care but i'm willing to give the benifit of the doubt

This is the whole point of this system, to give the power to the players so they can help govern their sport and keep it fun, fair, legal & safe!

and i agree with that but not with prosecution

Tigger

Puding wrote: »

restricting the type of springs for sale would never work for a number of reasons, a aegs joule output is determined by the combination of all its components,

i would want a 150 spring because im making a supper high rof aeg with a short stroke

where as i can also make a aeg with a 100 or 90 way of the limit by the using the right combination of parts



how can it be quality control when we know whole lines of aegs are over the limit but still retailers import and do not downgrade, its cheaper to deal with the 1 out of 10 that people bring back than to downgrade them all at the start,

a quality control issue would be, ow look a TM p90 is shooting 340 stock,

naw tm p90's shoot 285 stock they need up grading to make them nice


but chinese gear is a little more varied

Beast ASI

Tigger wrote: »

naw tm p90's shoot 285 stock they need up grading to make them nice


but chinese gear is a little more varied

"Nice" ??? - You ever used one?

Probably the third best hop system you can get - They shoot perfectly fine at stock.

I think Pudding knows that they shoot that as well, he was making the example of bad QC by TM, as it would be firing at 340.

Tigger

Beast ASI wrote: »

"Nice" ??? - You ever used one?

Probably the third best hop system you can get - They shoot perfectly fine at stock.

yup i have one thanks very much
the hop is funny the distance it gets is brilliant

but mine shoots at 315-320 hop off with a 90ms and that gives less flight time
also mine bedded doen to around 260 and i felt inadequate

Puding

naw tm p90's shoot 285 stock they need up grading to make them nice

you completely missed the point, beast kindly pointed out what you should have got, i was giving an example of bad QC, an A&K m249 shooting 400fps stock is not bad QC

also mine bedded doen to around 260 and i felt inadequate

and we have the problem, most people see 1j as a target , we have been trying hard in cork to re educate people and have a mind set change

Tigger

Beast ASI wrote: »

"Nice" ??? - You ever used one?

Probably the third best hop system you can get - They shoot perfectly fine at stock.

I think Pudding knows that they shoot that as well, he was making the example of bad QC by TM, as it would be firing at 340.

i know exactly what he was saying

tm have good qc tho

its the chinese that have poor qc

look all i'm saying is i'm never gonna get some one in trouble for what i assume is a mistake

if someone knows something i don't then....

Puding

its the chinese that have poor qc

most clones are shot hot if left stock, that is not a QC issue that is what there aiming for, there not designed for the 1j market