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Did it ever make sense to move from an old combustion car to a new EV

1235

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭PaulRyan97


    Definitely very possible for this gap to be much larger. My 2016 Golf 1.2tsi averaged me 6.6/100km. Say about €0.115/km at current petrol prices.

    I've an ID.7 on order, officially should get about 15kWh/100km, but let's say it actually gets 20. 0.2kWh/km. At my regular day tarriff this would be €0.068/km, my night tarriff would be €0.034/km. I will however be switching to an EV rate plan and charging overnight for 7c/kWh so it would be €0.014/km. About a tenth of the cost to run as my old Golf.

    Obviously the ID.7 is expensive so I'll never recoup that purchase cost but many cheaper EVs would get the same efficiency and tariff so you'd absolutely recoup in less than 2-3 years if you know what you're doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Yes but the purchase price of the ID7 and the cost of servicing the loan to purchase the ID7 vs the (I presume paid off) golf would wipe out any savings made on fuel, tax, servicing etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    That's your choice if you want to blow your hard earned on an ID7 I can tell you the vast majority of ICE drivers wouldn't be bothered or be able to afford it and there are a lot of people who wouldn't spend a lot on a car anyway whether they have the money or not, there are people who can afford to buy a new ev but will lock money away for as long as they can if they can depending on the interest they can make, on a new car you loose, car manufacturer, finance company and dealer make a profit on your purchase, if you could pay for ID7 with cash well you are in the minority in Ireland I would assume, if however, you're on finance or PCP then you're a mug like the rest of us.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    For some reason it always boils down to that my 10 y.o. yadda yadda is much cheaper to own than a brand new EV. But they don't actually compete at the same market. Somebody has to buy the new EVs so that they will be available as second had cars.

    What I was comparing were the running costs of two new 60k cars. Once it becomes common knowledge that a 8 y.o. EV doesn't self destruct one day after the warranty runs out the resale value of ID.7 will be better than a Phaeton of the same age. Your original L24 is probably still running at 9 y.o. with who knows how many kilometres. And the current large capacity cars will be better still as say 15% degradation on a 500 km battery is much easier to deal with than the same on a 120 km battery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    That’s grand once you factor in the cost of servicing a loan for the new car as a total of keeping that car on the road.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the two loans would be similar enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Back to the old cost v cashflow argument i see, you still banging that drum 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Everyone's circumstances are different. Most people would not be going from a 15 year old car directly to a new car in one step because that's a big investment, they'd need a few grand minimum for the deposit and a hefty monthly loan. More likely they'd go from that 15 year old car, to a 7 or 8 year old car that they can either buy with cash, or finance with a small loan and no/low deposit

    In my own specific circumstances. I worked out that I could pay a 200 euro car loan purely from the fuel savings I would make in not driving my existing ICE to do the school runs and dropping kids into their activities/local trips for shopping. Every month, I was doing enough of those kinds of miles, that I could get a Leaf on finance and the entire loan repayment would cost less than me simply keeping my existing car and driving it around as I was before

    We were gonna get a 2nd car anyway, so the additional tax and insurance was the cost of doing business.

    We were more than happy with the Leaf which can do about 130km on a charge which is more than enough for even our busiest day going in and out to the nearby town, and having the 2nd car available for any unexpected journeys or trips with the family means that the 2nd car will last longer as the short trips do disproportionate damage to the mechanics of the car, will be more fuel efficient (it's way more economical on longer drives than short hops) and we got a car worth 10k for basically nothing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Ok, so cost to change for you is 13k after two years, so that is €6,500 per year excluding any repayments you have made.

    That equates to €541 per month or €17.80 each and every day on depreciation alone.

    So even ignoring your electricity costs, I'm able to tax, insure, fuel and maintain several cars for less money per year.

    The sums do not add up ?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Because, it is easy, quick, convenient, cost effective compared to the €17.80 per day in cost to change as per post no 74 in this thread, note, not depreciation, a cost of € 6,500 in a year to own an EV excluding electricity, insurance, tax and repayments based on a cost to change of €13,000 after two years.

    That is a shed load of tax and fuel for an ICE.

    At the current € 1.78 per Ltr of Unleaded, If I subtract my insurance and the tax on my 2002 Octavia RS 1.8t (note I am picking the thirstiest car I have to hand) I'm left with €5,750 which is 3,230 Ltrs of unleaded. at 7.8 Ltrs per 100km which is the combined fuel consumption that is a whopping 41,410 Km's of petrol.

    For a laugh, lets do the same with my S40 1.6d miser **** box, Tax is less, insurance is more, leaves roughly the same, so € 5,750 at € 1.74 per Ltr Diesel = 3,304 Ltrs at the combined 3.4 Ltrs per 100 km that is 97,194km.

    Again, the sums, they just do not add up. The EV makes no sense.

    I do all my own servicing, costs are therefore minimal, a timing belt is €20, Oil is cheap, Filters are a few Euro, 2 clutches since 1999, one flywheel, one EGR, 0 DPF's 0 CATS.

    I can not be convinced of the financial benefit, it is just not there as far as I can see, want to save money on motoring, just buy an older car, you could save thousands a year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,691 ✭✭✭✭fits


    interesting maths to compare a new EV with a 22 year old car and use depreciation to compare costs.

    Fuelling is certainly not cheap or convenient. My car is full every morning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    I don't think anyone would argue a brand new any car makes sense against a fully depreciated old car that someone is happy to service themselves financially, did someone say it did? You argument isn't against evs it's against new cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,152 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Individual examples are a bad way to make general statements.

    Car prices and depreciation is all over the place for the last year or two for both EV and ICE. Admittedly EV more so, since there is a price war happening so new prices have dropped and affected resale value but thats a short term thing as they wont and cant keep dropping prices (the prices had been inflated after Covid so the market is correcting)… but manufacturers have to stay profitable so the price drops wont continue and depreciation will stabilise.

    The high depreciation stories depend on when you bought rather than being an EV vs ICE or technology thing. If it was after Covid and you paid the inflated price then there is some pain. Prior to that there were plenty of stories of second hand cars going up in value (EV and ICE)…. so its a moving target depending on what data you look at.

    My own EV, which I bought during Covid, before prices went crazy, has depreciated about 50% after 3.5yrs…. perfectly normal. As I said, individual examples arent good for general statements.

    In terms of the fuel savings calculations you have done, these would be the general savings you'd get on the fuel, for say, 20k km's…

    20k km's @ €1.78/ltr @ 7.8L/100km, which gives €2777

    Conservative value for the EV would be 20kWh/100km @ 20c/kWh which gives €800

    So, ballpark saving on fuel of 2k per year for 20k km's driven. Thats a decent saving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,275 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Gs does all his own servicing, which most of us can't do, so his logic doesn't apply to us. His servicing costs would probably increase if he switched to EV unlike us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,152 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    His servicing costs would probably increase if he switched to EV unlike us

    Why would it?

    There are no EV consumables to service. Its just normal wear and tear items like cabin filter, tyres, wipers and suspension, if required, which he can continue to do on EV without any additional knowledge required.

    His servicing costs should go down with EV since he wont have to buy/change oil.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    ICE servicing would include more than just oil. Oil filter, sump washer, air filter(s), spark plugs if petrol. And that's just standard service items.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    So your maths is against new cars. Not just EV’s. Thats fine. You want to keep your old car on the road. That’s fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Just for him since he does his own servicing. That's not open to all. Only for a vanishingly small percentage. Also would call into question his 3.4l/100km for the S40. Published consumption for that car is 7.7l/100km combined. That's when new. Goes as high as 11 for urban.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    And even at that, quoting €20 for a timing belt! A gates belt and pump is €130 online. I’m sure he s it using Ali express timing belts so I’d say he’s playing with the figures there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    I don't really get the premise of this thread. One could easily replace the word "EV" for "car" and nearly all the same arguments would apply. It almost never makes sense to switch to a brand new car, as you are hit with the full depreciation and nearly always need finance and the associated costs that go with it regardless of the rate of finance. It just seems like another angle of attacking EVs.

    "Because, it is easy, quick, convenient, cost effective"

    I find it far more convenient to plug my car in on my driveway every 4 or 5 days than to go to a fuel station and pump petrol/diesel into the car. At least I know my pump is clean, whereas i'm sure at least one person in the dozens before me holding the petrol/diesel pump had either just been picking their nose, or scratching their nuts before they got out to fill up.

    "compared to the €17.80 per day in cost to change"

    The additional cost of depreciation only happens when you switch to a newer, more expensive car. Note I say "car", because it applies to any car (with few exceptions) regardless of fuel type it takes. You must have been talking about post #75 in this thread on the KONA comparison.

    Well, if you look again, you will see that the price difference between a new petrol or electric version, the difference is tiny. The petrol version is €31,950 vs €32,797 for the EV. The EV is also a higher spec and while the petrol version has 3k klms on the clock, the EV has 17klms, so has only delivery miles on it. Maybe it's a facelift thing, or something like that, as the EV look a little different, but it's the same make/model with different drive train and I know what I would rather be in if I had to drive a KONA. It's hard to find like for like examples, as there are few models that share EV and ICE drivetrains. I find comparable cars to be now similar in EV/ICE such as the Nissan Juke and Leaf.

    As I have already said above your post, making this and EV depreciation thread is pointless, because the same argument can be had for petrol and diesel cars. If you change out your old banger for a newer car, it will cost you.

    "At the current € 1.78 per Ltr of Unleaded, If I subtract my insurance and the tax on my 2002 Octavia RS 1.8t (note I am picking the thirstiest car I have to hand) I'm left with €5,750 which is 3,230 Ltrs of unleaded. at 7.8 Ltrs per 100km which is the combined fuel consumption that is a whopping 41,410 Km's of petrol."

    Better still. Let's not assume you would be switching to an EV for your example. Let's say you switch to a new Octavia RS. The cheapest RS is €48k. The oldest RS I could find was a 2008 Diesel for under €3k. So, you sell yours for €3k and you are left with €45k to pay for the new car. The best rate with AIB for a car loan is at 8.95% with monthly payments over 5 years being €1,007. You will get better MPG for sure, but that's a lot of tax and fuel. Too much? I agree.

    Let's say you buy a 3 year old one. Cheapest Octavia VRS is €37k 2ltr diesel with over 100k klms on the clock. Sell your for €3k and you owe €34k. That's €761 per month, with cost of credit being over €7k.

    "Again, the sums, they just do not add up. The EV makes no sense."

    We could do this with any upgrade, petrol, diesel, or EV….take your pick. If you want a new car which is not a class, or brand/marque change from your current car, you will pay more. End of. Instead of saying the EV makes no sense, or the sums don't add up, you may want to reframe the argument.

    "I do all my own servicing, costs are therefore minimal, a timing belt is €20, Oil is cheap, Filters are a few Euro, 2 clutches since 1999, one flywheel, one EGR, 0 DPF's 0 CATS."

    Most people can't or won't do all their own servicing and very few can tackle a timing belt. You are in a minority there and hats off to you for doing it yourself. I used to do all the basic servicing on my ICE cars…oil, filters, consumables. Changed out several CATs, break pads/discs, batteries, alternators, cluster gauges. Hardwired dual dash cams. A few other bits and pieces that most people don't do. It does not add to the argument here because you have to value your own time and expertise too. That has a value.

    "I can not be convinced of the financial benefit, it is just not there as far as I can see, want to save money on motoring, just buy an older car, you could save thousands a year."

    There you have it. You have left out "EV" and replaced it with "older car" and it makes more financial sense. However, a car is not just an A to B. For most people, it's an emotional purchase. For some, it's about going from a micro-car to an SUV. For others, it's getting a newer plate. And for a few, it's just about not worrying if their timing belt is about to fly off and destroy the engine, leaving them late for work that day. We all have our reasons and thank the lord some people buy new cars, so others can buy used cars later at a much cheaper price, be they ICE or EV.

    Stay Free



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Now factor in the monthly cost of paying back the loan to buy the EV.

    Still making savings with the new EV vs the old car?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,152 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    But no one is claiming that a new €50k EV makes financial sense when compared with keeping your existing old car which has little or no depreciation left. Fuel savings will never make up for €20-30k in depreciation of a new car over its first 3yrs.

    Thats not an EV thing, thats old vs new, regardless of whether its ICE or EV.

    The only comparison that should really be made is if you are upgrading to a new (or secondhand) car anyway and you compare two cars in the same segment for similar money.

    e.g. You want to buy a crossover and you are comparing a Tiguan to an ID.4 or for saloon a Model 3 to a Corolla etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    I believe the old car was never new and popped into existence cost free.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    this has been explained twice now, a few of you seem to be arguing against something that was never claimed

    In a shock development a new car costs more than an old car.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Can’t believe you still have to type the same stuff for the same poster!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    If you drive the EV for enough klms and keep it long enough, then yes, the saving will be made with the EV. But that's not really your argument.

    Your argument applies to any newer car in the same category/brand/marque, or am I missing some other point you are trying to make which applies only to EVs and not Petrol/Diesel cars?

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    If you drive the EV for enough klms and keep it long enough, then yes, the saving will be made with the EV. But that's not really your argument.

    But then it'll be an old car and cost nothing. Apparently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Something that costs nothing can only appreciate 😁

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    So the title of the thread is correct then.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    A new car, no matter what fuel will cost more than an old car. Even when you take into consideration fixes etc unless the old car blows up and then you have to buy a new car

    The cheapest way to keep a car, is buy one and then keep driving it till it falls off the road. That doesn't matter what type of fuel it uses



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Correct only in the sense that shít attracts flies and sometimes we need to hose it down the drain.

    It's a stupid question, as it focuses on EVs only when the very same argument you are making applies to any newer car.

    The real question should be whether it makes sense to change to a newer EV if buying a new car anyway. Often the answer is yes. Sometimes the answer is no. Debate open.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    TCO, very easily done.

    But a lot of people don't do it.

    Like someone on another thread telling me they do big mileage so they need a diesel, 1300km per week. Which is less than 200km per day. If I tracked I probably do close to that in a 30-40kWh electric car.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    It'd probably be closer to 250 a day assuming they don't do big mileage at the weekend. Still doable, but you might need something bigger than 40kWh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I was making the point I have a "small" battery car and do similar no issue

    Most cars now will come with 50kWh as a start and bigger is a lot more common, 7 years ago when I first bought electric it would have been hard, not now a days



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    That's because it's dogma. They aren't really having a discussion.

    What's more they are just on repeat across many threads. It's white noise making it a chore to post. It's detrimental to boards itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Fair example:

    I have personal experience of similar, as I am sure many on here do. I'm just changing out the car.

    2004 Nissan Almera is on its last legs. It's costing about a grand in maintenance per year and will need work done for the next NCT if the engine/gearbox make it that far. I'm doing 20k klms per year, with a 100km return commute. For arguments sake, we will ignore the fact that it cost money to buy the Almera, which if adjusted for inflation, was probably more than the cost of the used Leaf example below. We will assume a Loan for the Leaf, even though most wouldn't be taking a loan, but let's just have fun with it. Assumed ownership period is 10 years for both cars for some level of fairness. All figures are calculated over 1 year and the full 10 years.

    Annual cost of old car (2004 Nissan Almera 1.5 Petrol):

    Cost of car = €0

    Repair Maintenance = €1,000 = €10,000

    Tyres and wipers = €600 = €6,000

    Service = €300 = €3,000

    Tax = €413 = €4,130

    Fuel = 1L = 12km. 20,000/12 = 1,666L. @€1.73/L that's €2,880 = €28,800

    Total = ~€5,200 per year. = €52,000 over 10 years

    Annual cost of newer, similar car in EV format (2018 Nissan Leaf 40kWh):

    Cost of car = €10,000

    Monthly repayment = €195 per month over 5 years (€2,340 per year, or €11,660 over the 5 years)

    Repair Maintenance = €200 = €2,000 (based on personal experience, my repairs in 7 years were less than €500)

    Tyres and wipers = €600 = €6,000

    Service = €50 = €500 (based on experience. No service ever needed aside from brake fluid flush, but fair to add 500)

    Tax = €120 = €1,200

    Fuel = 1kWh = 6.5km. 20,000/6.5 = 3,075kWh. @€0.15/kWh that's €460 = €4,600 (based on my own expensive night rate and ignoring solar charging)

    Total = ~€2,640 per year. = €26,400 over 10 years

    Is the title of the thread correct? Maybe. Maybe I missed something, but I have tried to be very fair and based this off my own very average experience, even adding costs I know shouldn't have been added to the EV.

    Stay Free



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There's many reasons to change car many not financial at all. The thread title does not exclude them.

    Also not everyone buys a new car to replace an older one. They might buy a newer older car. After the worst of the depreciation has passed.

    They buy it to get any number of newer features. I really like not having to go to a petrol station that often.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    I did not use depreciation, I used the posters stated cost to change, which is also know as the cost of ownership.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Autodoc.ie

    Gates €21.10

    Febi €16.55

    Bosch €17.98

    Contitech €24.16

    There are cheaper ones if you want too.

    You will note I said a belt is €20, I didn't say a kit including all the other bits that are likely to be perfectly serviceable, I use my own judgement, no sense in replacing a pump I replaced a few years before when I'm just changing the part vunerable to failure



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Point taken on just using the belt. But if you’ve done the mileage in those same few years that warrants a belt replacement, I’d be changing the pump and using the kit myself.

    So that just leaves the issue as the cost to change out of a 22 year old car into a new car. Irrespective of fuel type, And nobody will argue that you buy a new car to save money. You buy a new car for yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    yeah so the previous statement I was replying to is incorrect.
    An EV is not cheaper than an ICE.
    Unless you’re comparing a new ICE with a new EV- then yes running costs will be cheaper.
    However a perfectly good second hand ICE bought for cash vs a brand new EV would not be cheaper to run. (due to loan costs being factored in).

    Therefore the statement that I replied to would be false.

    It’s that obvious 😉



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Why on earth compare a second hand ICE with a new EV? Madness.

    I can just as easily say a perfectly good second hand EV is cheaper than a new ICE.

    I see your on about loans again as if the ICE magically appears in the driveway of the owner using fairy dust? Loans can be obtained for EV or ICE.

    But what’s the point?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,330 ✭✭✭User1998


    Why would you compare a new EV with a second hand ICE😂

    Why not compare a new EV vs a new ICE or a used EV vs a used ICE?

    What a strange argument, obviously the newer car is going to be more expensive😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    and you win the reward for "Most ridiculous post of the day"

    Well done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Likewise, a new ICE would be much more expensive to buy than a second hand EV. The EV would also be cheaper to run. Why are we pointing out the obvious here?

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I clearly said cash for the ICE.
    A 10k cash ICE could easily do 700kms on a tank- the same cannot be said about a 10k EV unfortunately



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    They are couldn’t be cheaper to run vs a cash bought ICE for say 10k though.
    So therefore in that case an ICE would be cheaper than an EV.



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