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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    as i said to you before, this is even more nonsensical then simply turfing them off at wherever and letting them get the all stops which is nonsensical as it is.
    so you turf them off on to a dart that just does a couple of stops and the diesel will still run empty to connolly as there is not going to be a depot or servicing facilities built to serve them somewhere on the rosslare line.
    and before you bring it up, they could deliver a direct train to wexford tomorrow if they wanted to but not only is the stock not currently available or drivers but they don't and never will want to unless it is forced upon them to do it like the original increases in frequency from 3 trains a day back in 2004.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    there is not going to be services to dublin from wexford or towns north via the south wexford line.

    lets just put that to bed.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Sure Waterford is the real capital of the South East. Reinstating direct Wexford-Waterford services will be a great asset to Wexford. South Wexford line for the win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    not only is it not a reasonable compromise but it's not a compromise at all.
    the journey time would be quite substantially effected by this, not to mention that even if it was the case that rosslare line passengers were all able to get a seat, it means those previously able to get a seat up the line will not be able to do so.
    ultimately, it provides a worse service over all for all but tries to make it look like a better service will be provided, essentially it's a shifting of the deck chairs to replace crap deck chairs for some with broken deck chairs.

    the line from bray to connolly is not as constrained as being made out, there are some constraints but with future signalling and the fact they are running a 10 minute frequency and direct rosslare services, dispite many of us fearing that 10 minutes wouldn't be possible with the current infrastructure, it is clear that there is capacity for all with increased frequencies possible for all with more darts and more direct rosslare services.

    bray to greystones is a bit of an issue but that is going to have to be addressed regardless, there is no getting out of that.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,945 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Only Belfast out of those three is a city. The InterCity label should really only apply to Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    If I owned the crayons for this line, I would

    • Triple/Quad track the Merrion Gates to Dun Laoighaire section (and perhaps raise it a bit, "just in case")
    • Double/Triple the Shankill to Bray and onwards to the Cliffs section
    • Double/Triple the Cliffs section to Greystone Section

    But maybe it's good that I don't own the crayons…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,206 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    It's not in the AIRR so definitely a crayon suggestion but it's only 40km from Enniscorthy to Carlow via Bunclody through open fairly flat countryside, if they really wanted to divert the Wexford service into Heuston.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Macmine Junction line reopening would keep some of the people objecting on railfan bases quite happy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    we already know a shuttle will fail, it offers nothing worth bothering with, just no point in wasting time trialling something we know will fail.
    i've been a user of the line for nearly 40 years so i am well aware of it's issues and what it actually needs doing to deal with them, and this plan is not that.
    direct services are absolutely an efficient use of resources as they provide people with a comfortable direct service and it means no empty running otherwise known as ECS moves which would be happening with this idea due to the reasons i explained in previous posts.
    you will never make the change time neutral because it's impossible unless everyone engages in a ridiculously fast stampede across to the other train and one wants people crushed, personally that's not what i want.
    i'm basing my arguments on actual facts and actual realities as well as my nearly 40 years of knowledge of the line.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    It's all purely down to the mechanics of the line and the constraints caused by the level of services running along it and the associated speed requirements.

    Because of the DART running every 10 minutes north of Bray and being a full stopping service, it is impossible to get a gap for an Intercity service to run as a higher speed express all the way to Dublin city. Hence the suggestion to curtail the service to Greystones, removing the hour-long stretch to Dublin; which means that in exchange for a change of train, the section from Greystones to Rosslare get a more frequent service using the same amount of rolling stock and staffing.

    It's a similar situation that might have to happen with the Sligo services when we get to DART West. Currently with the Maynooth line only being a half-hourly service off-peak, there is sufficient room for the Intercity trains to run express from Connolly in only 30 minutes, as opposed to the 45 minutes of the Commuter services. But when the service frequency increases in the peak (both on the Maynooth line, and the M3 branch direct to/from Docklands), the Intercity has to slow to make room — taking 40 minutes to traverse Maynooth–Connolly. This will only get worse once the line becomes DART and service frequency increases even more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    AIRR has a proposed chord line to dump Sligo services in to Heuston



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    well why should they if they don't necessarily need to go at that point but may do so a bit later, all to suit a discredited plan?

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Mad stuff: last time I was in Bunclody it was quite hilly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i agree, i support it's reopening.

    but i really don't believe there will be dublin services via that route.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it more or less does, the technical term for the others is regional.

    but for the most part both overlap in terms of service quality, at least in terms of onboard environment.

    there will be differences though such as cork and belfast having a little bit more aspects to the service quality.

    lx's point still stands though whichever terms you use.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 398 ✭✭IsaacWunder


    God, some of the responses here, it sounds a bit like Ryan Tubridy before the oireachtas committee. All we’re missing is a comment about how the poor misfortunate children of Wicklow and Wexford will be forced to change trains. How will they manage it? Think of the children!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the suggestion to curtail the rosslare services at greystones is not about dart or about improving things.
    the reality is a direct service even if slow is going to be a vast improvement over turfing people off at wicklow or greystones onto a suburban service with increased journey times.
    once dart+ happens there will be plenty of rolling stock to operate an increased frequency, trying to operate it with the current rolling stock and staff is unworkable even with turfing everyone off at greystones because the capacity to support the lines usership is currently not enough anyway.
    ultimately, it will only be direct services from sligo and rosslare and belfast etc that will be happening, because the politicians in sligo will insure it and we have enough power down here now between campaign groups and local politicians to insure it.
    the only reason for this nonsense is the NTA'S want to simply kill off rail outside parts of the GDA for their own political reasons whatever they are, which is very obvious hence why coming up with dum sollutions rather then getting real.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    The bigger issue, I foresee, is southbound passengers having to wait in a windswept Greystones train station with little to no facilities for up to an hour for their next train.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    This is a very legitimate concern. IR have made clear, the proposal has not been decided. It's early stage of scoping.

    One would have to assume that proper facilities would be installed at whichever station might serve as a terminus. Absolutely a non runner if those services are not put in place prior to any change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    @endoftheroad People spend over an hour on Dublin Bus every day, twice a day. Or any other public transport service, or private vehicle for that matter. They manage just fine without a toilet.

    Pick your arguments here!!



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Be interesting to see the effects of the Dart going to once every 5/6 minutes. Even with the signal upgrades, this is still going to massively effect every IC that had to come in on any track that isn't quad.

    Probably a long time off for now, but it is still IRs eventual aim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,678 ✭✭✭prunudo


    its not just about toilets, you could have over 200 people standing around for an hour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭markpb


    You’ve never travelled with a toddler, young child, pregnant woman, old person or person with kidney problems, have you?

    This isn’t a good option for those people, or people with baggage or people who want to be comfortable in long trips so it will drive them to alternate options like buses or cars. Other people will be happy with the improved frequency and the lack of IC facilities won’t bother them.

    Let’s not pretend this is perfect, it’s a compromise. Snide remarks about people holding their bladder is a great way of discussing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    To be fair, I fully acknowledge it isn't perfect. It's the most constrained line going into Dublin, which is unfortunate but very real. I fully support the requirement for decent facilities at whichever interchange station is chosen.

    Comparison of lines:

    The Northern line has only 6 stations between Connolly and Clongriffin where a passing 3rd line will be constructed.

    The Sligo line has 11 stations between Maynooth and Connolly, but also benefits from 4 tracks between Glasnevin Junction and Connolly/Spencer Dock.

    The SW line will have 4 tracks all the way into Heuston from HH, currently 3.

    The Southern line has 17 stations between Greystones and Connolly and a section of single alignment.

    Big difference...



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I must be missing something. I am not suggesting every train be turned at Bray, just one or two. Passengers are not turfed out, they just change trains.

    A train can travel from Rosslare to Connolly without having to be serviced. Presumably it travelled from Connolly to Rosslare originally. But it cannot run from Wexford to Bray without having to run to Connolly for service.

    What I am suggesting is quite simple. The Wexford train travels to Bray (run time 1 hr 50 min) and parks in Platform 3. Passengers transfer across the platform to a waiting Dart, which then sets off for Connolly (run time 45 min). That is the same arrival time that the original Wexford train would have arrived at. Now the connecting Dart from Connolly arrives in platform 2 and passengers cross to platform 3 onto the waiting train that then sets off for Wexford. This Wexford train will have spent 3 hours travelling.

    If the train leaves Wexford at 6 am, it will arrive in Bray at 7 45 am. Say it leaves Bray at 8 am, it will arrive in Wexford at 9 45 am. That is well over two hours earlier than the current timetable. One train doing this would be a huge improvement in service to Wexford from Dublin.

    By car, Wexford to Bray Dart Station does an average speed 90 km/h vs the train averages 67 km/h. Bring that up to 120 km/h would bring travelling time to about 60 mins. That would be huge by increasing the number of passengers and makes better use of the rolling stock.

    There must be reasons why this cannot happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    sam the diesels are serviced at connolly and sets are swapped out along with the rest of the maintenence regime, none of this is going to be changed so the diesels are just going to run to connolly empty regardless.

    so that alone puts paid to what you are looking for as well as the fact that turfing people off on to a dart doing the same couple of stops just makes no sense anyway.

    if you are doing that then it's on to the all stops or just run the diesel with passengers.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    not a valid comparison seeing as dublin bus passengers expect what they get when traveling on those services.
    why would i pick my arguments when in reality all of the arguments are in favour of my side of the debate.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I had thought of this before too. From north of Enniscorthy to around Muine Bheag would be about 35km, although the terrain would be difficult. A much better option than reopening the south Wexford line in any case.

    This is the thing which annoys me about the AISRR, it includes a line from Portadown to Mullingar and Portadown to Derry/Letterkenny but not an actually strategically beneficial line like that (Wexford - Waterford line link) which would maximise the existing network. Wexford - Dublin via the south Wexford line would be a crap service and couldn't complete with buses.

    I really think the last several pages of discussion of services south of Greystones should be split into a separate thread. It is obviously linked to DART+ but also goes way beyond it.

    Post edited by Pete_Cavan on


  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    If the route is changed to include an interchange, then that's what customers will come to expect. They may not agree with that level of service, but once they know, then they know...

    Insisting on referring to an interchange as "being turfed out", says a lot for your argument. If an argument has legitimate weight, then you shouldn't need to use hyperbole to argue it.

    To be clear, there are v.legitimate concerns here, but you do a disservice to those with your language.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Difficult to separate them, since the argument for changing the Wexford terminus is directly linked to Dart, but I agree it's better in a separate thread, perhaps the AIRR one?..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Waterford/Wexford connection is in the AIRR? I think the goal is in future Wexford services will go up that alignment instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭jd


    Yes, from what I remember single line would be electrified Waterford-Rosslare Harbour and also a reinstated Felthouse Junction to a new station in South Wexford, presumably just inside the ring road. Trains would run Heuston-Waterford-Wexford-Rosslare. With 200 km/hr running Heuston - Waterford, that would be about 1 hr 10 or 15. Then 25 - 30 mins Waterford to Wexford. That's a long way into thefuture, if ever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Wexford is not on the Rosslare-Waterford line. Maybe it should be. I think it should, but I'll leave that as a discussion for an Inter-City route thread, as neither Waterford nor Wexford are ever going to be served by DART...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no, it's not what customers will come to expect as they wonn't bother with it at all as there is absolutely no service worth bothering with over the car with this plan.
    at least the current service dispite it's many faults has some little thing to offer.
    being turfed out is exactly what it would be, it's just fact, and to the point and it's the correct way to argue against this discredited laughable embarrassment of a proposal.
    the arguments against it are the only arguments full stop.
    i do a disservice to nothing, those of us against this nonsense have won because we will be proven right on absolutely every claim if this is implemented.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    You keep saying "this discredited proposal". Where has it been discredited? Or have you just decided that it won't work?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,186 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    “all of the arguments are in favour of my side of the debate.”
    This isn’t how debates are had - play nice.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,186 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    It’s probably already been thought of, but post Dart+ can’t Sligo trains depart ex Spencer Dock, so at least they could bypass Connolly to Glasnevin for a speed improvement?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,972 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Won’t there be some DARTs using that line as well?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    Ideally intercity trains should depart from the most central train station in the city. If Glasnevin to Connolly line is too full, can't they just use Docklands line fron Glasnevin, then use the Newcomen Curve to reach Connolly?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Mostly positive feedback from train commuters in an article in this morning's IT. The clinching argument is earlier and more frequent trains.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,742 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Drumcondra is a busy destination for the Sligo train. If they use Newcomen there's also the congestion is causes when the train then has to get to the yard or fueling point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 655 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Yes overall seems very positive. Lots of support from actual users for the plan.

    I find it strange that one guy wants the IC direct to the city, so he can work while commuting, but says he will just drive from Gorey to Wicklow instead if they cut the direct service. Does he plan on working while driving?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/04/06/many-passengers-on-board-with-plans-to-ditch-direct-dublin-rosslare-trains/



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There are 4 trains per day running from Rosslare port to Connolly - per day. Five per day from Wexford and six per day from Gorey.

    There is a 10 min service from Bray to Connolly, and a 30 min Greystones Dart service to Bray and beyond, with the Rosslare service added to it..

    Those two services are massively different. No-one could look at the two as comparitive.

    With a ten minute service, a passenger does not even consult a timetable or on-line service predicter. For the service south of Bray, one should consult both. Whether the extension of the Dart service and turnaround on the diesel commuter/IC trains is Greystones, Wicklow, Arklow, or Gorey is irrelevant unless there are more trains, and punctuality is certain. Stopping patterns are of course important as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Why cant all the Sligo/Longford Trains use Spencer Dock now?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    As mentioned above, Drumcondra is a big stop for the InterCity services.

    Also Spencer Dock only has two platforms. That said, I'm not sure if there is enough overlap in the peak-time M3 Parkway services to where both platforms would be occupied by them and have no room for the InterCity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    We keep talking about interchanging here so could the people that on Longford/Sligo trains not interchange at broombridge for Drumcondra and south of the liffey?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,143 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    But is Drumcondra a busy destination for the Sligo train because of passengers from Maynooth who will in future be using DARTs to make that journey instead? Once Metrolink opens, Glasnevin would be a much better stop for Sligo trains, Drumcondra would be pointless a that stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,742 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Not really. You get some people who use it, as it's quicker to get into Connolly. But there's a large number of students who travel up from the country on that train, who get off at Drumcondra. Often more than get off in Connolly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,742 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    It's not well connected for passengers to get to/from. And you still have the issue of congestion when you need to get a train down there from the yard in Connolly. You could always reconnect the link with North Wall, and there's room down there to store trains. But that won't happen in reality. Especially since they are also building a new freight terminal in North Wall shortly.

    Two platforms, but you can run four trains out of there in theory. And they regularly run two trains off one platform.



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