DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971387#Comment_121971387

One thing i can't figure out is why the turnback would take place at Wicklow instead of Greystones? Much better connectivity at Greystones for passengers.

Re-reading the article on the RTE news, there appears to be two different projects being looked at.

There appears to be DART+ South Coastal, which may have added DART service to Greystones and the Wexford train would terminate there.

And they mention a second project looking at potentially extending the DART service to Wicklow using BEMU’s. It is possible even if that happens, the Wexford shuttle would continue to Greystones.

BTW the AIRR actually talks of the Wexford shuttle being hourly, which would be a massive improvement over the existing poor service.

Archduke Franz Ferdinand

Gorey and surroundings is one of the largest growing populations in the country. The trains to Dublin are crammed and standing room only a lot of the time. It’s a third world country we are in when it comes to planning, infra structure and services

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971587#Comment_121971587

i didn't realise they were planning this, in principle its a good idea, but as @BK says, it be shame if the project curtails future expansion.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971469#Comment_121971469

Look, perhaps stop being so confrontational.

I apologise for stating that the connection idea wasn’t in the AIRR, when it was. You were indeed correct. My knowledge of AIRR is not encyclopaedic, and I’ll defer to you on that.

To me it is very much an aspirational document, some ideas in itwill happen and others won’t, but it’s a very long term plan and I would not treat the ideas in it as definitely happening, and I do tend to look at what investment is actually planned rather what might happen, quite simply because I’ve seen so many plans over the years just ending up gathering dust.

However someone did feed this story to the press yesterday - it isn’t coming from the press reading the AIRR specifically - but rather someone is clearly trying to gauge reactions and hence my suggestion that this was coming from the NTA.

Re journey times I made a post about journey times on Sligo and Belfast already above.

Re the Wexford line, the proposal would probably mean adding up to another 10 minutes connection time to the overall journey time (you would have to do so to allow for resilience on the single line and for everyone to change trains). The trains are already taking much longer than they did before and that won’t change.

The Rosslare trains already take 58 mins to get from Connolly to Greystones (back in 1985 they took 35 mins), which is a consequence of the increased DART frequency (and yes I do see the latter as a positive). That now becomes potentially 68 mins allowing for the additional connection time.

My objections are:

1. The diminution in service quality and comfort by being forced to switch to a DART (lack of more comfortable seats with tables, toilets and luggage racks)
2. The potential increase in journey times by another 10 mins - it’s just making the train less and less attractive for journeys on that route (in the absence of any proposals to improve them elsewhere on the line).
3. The fact that the NTA in speccing the DART+ programme specifically told the engineering consultants not to look at the impact on longer distance services on any of the lines out of Connolly - that to me is short sighted - I do believe that overtaking options for longer distance services should have at least been examined and costed as part of the exercise in an effort to try and main some form of competitiveness.
4. Service levels have yet to be determined between Connolly and Bray, but I do still strongly believe that it is possible to retain one path an hour for Rosslare services in each direction on that section, and by crossing northbound & southbound trains at Greystones to substitute the ICRs for DARTs between Bray and Greystones.

I personally think that it is a better idea to keep the through service, and you’re free to disagree with me. But a little less agressively would be appreciated.

loyatemu

I suggested this on the N11 upgrade thread previously, but if the Dart is being extended to Wicklow, it would be worth extending it slightly further to meet the N11 and build new station and a park and ride there (Eamonn seems to like a bit of P&R). Plenty of space, & doesn't need any new motorway junction as J17 is just to the south:

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121745118#Comment_121745118

Any update on this, either SW or W projects? Where did you hear these points? It's now April and nothing has been heard since...

cgcsb

Radio silence. IE are still awaiting an RO to close some level crossings on the Cork line, they applied for RO in April of 2021...

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971868#Comment_121971868

The fact that the NTA in speccing the DART+ programme specifically told the engineering consultants not to look at the impact on longer distance services on any of the lines out of Connolly - that to me is short sighted - I do believe that overtaking options for longer distance services should have at least been examined and costed as part of the
exercise in an effort to try and main some form of competitiveness.

You really need to look at the AIRR. They specifically mention in the report that they studied multiple options for long distance services on the Wexford line, including double tracking, passing loops, a new line and a new tunnel under Bray head, etc. They said they found that the cost couldn't be justified by the passenger numbers.

Service levels have yet to be determined between Connolly and Bray, but I do still strongly believe that it is possible to retain one path an hour for Rosslare services in each direction on that section, and by crossing northbound & southbound trains at Greystones to substitute the ICRs for DARTs between Bray and Greystones.

The problem is those DMU trains would have significantly less capacity then giving that slot to a DART, thus you are reducing the number of passengers this line can carry per hour. Also you are causing issues with unreliability by mixing often delayed DMU's in with an EMU service, very much against international best practice of keeping such services separate.

This proposal would result in this line carrying more passengers and having better service.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972060#Comment_121972060

The line crosses the N11/M11 in a few places and these locations would be good for P&R for commuters heading for Dublin. [Arklow and Wicklow environs].

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971868#Comment_121971868

Sort out the 20mph speed restriction in Dun Laoghaire, shave a bit of time off.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973416#Comment_121973416

not much point putting P&R too far out and it also needs a regular rail service. Rathnew seems an obvious location, the proximity to a junction is a bonus. They're building bus P&R sites further up the N11 at Kilpedder and Fassaroe.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973676#Comment_121973676

Its one of the reasons I'd be weary of them watering down the Rosslare service. There is so much residential development happening along the n11 corridor. The potential for the line is huge. IR seem to be saying because the numbers are currently low, upgrading the line isn't either a priority or worthwhile. But as has been shown time and time again, if a good public transport service is provided people embrace it immediately.

Zebra3

There is only so much you can fit on the double track between Bray and Connolly.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973748#Comment_121973748

In its current form yes, but they don't seem to have any appetite to upgrade it always putting it on the long finger or having consultants review it. Even as mentioned in posts over the last few pages, the journey times are increasing. The aim should be more frequent service and faster speeds.

The n11 can't and won't cope alone, there needs to be more joined up thinking to provide the transport requirement for all the new residential builds.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973743#Comment_121973743

But the service is being upgraded. For a mere 4 trains a day, to a possibly hourly service! And if they bring BEMU's to Wicklow you could be looking at a 20 minute frequency to Wicklow!

The whole point of this is to greatly increase the amount of service, capacity and frequency on the line.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973859#Comment_121973859

It has been looked at and studied but unfortunately there simply is no realistic option.

BTW Only one poster is claiming slower journey times and there is simply no evidence for that belief. The goal of this project is certainly to have a far more frequent service.

cgcsb

The only real long term solution is a new inland track between Rathnew and Bray plus some sections of triple track between Bray and the City Centre where possible.

But really there are many much higher priorities for the rail network. Its just a shame that our railway has been in a state of managed decline for 100 years and we must now focused the available resources on modernising the most critical parts of the network. Even if all goes well, a project to really fix the Rosslare won't be coming till after 2040.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973859#Comment_121973859

How would you propose they upgrade Bray-Connolly?

Be great if it happened, but how does it happen and be economically viable?

loyatemu

• The only real long term solution is a new inland track between Rathnew and Bray plus some sections of triple track between Bray and the City Centre where possible.

I suspect a new tunnel through Bray Head and a long loop somewhere between Wicklow and Greystones would be cheaper long term than a new inland alignment, but neither are happening in my lifetime so we are where we are.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974155#Comment_121974155

How big of a budget are you giving me!

I just fear its head in the sand not pushing for passing loops at a minimum. The constraints of the line aren't going away and the extra trains and greater passenger numbers from south of Greystones are going to put more pressure on the Bray-Connolly section.

Now this doesn't need to be done immediately, ie before 2030 but just seems they don't even want to entertain it. And as I said, the population of the n11 corridor is increasing each year, houses, houses and more houses but no office or commercial premises being built. It will be a disaster 10 years unless they are more ambitious.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974155#Comment_121974155

Extend Metrolink → Bray and then you have doubled the North/South Capacity. Economically viable and probably will happen. Bray head still needs to be tunnelled/bypassed as that line will fall into the sea or be insufficent capacity.

danfrancisco83

Going to stay positive and revise my comment. RO approved hopefully any day now.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971499#Comment_121971499

But this is gross hyperbole. The proposal is to increase services.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975143#Comment_121975143

The purpose is to get DMU's outside of the DART+ region. To increase and maintain good service patterns in the coastal core. This isn't hyperbole, its the justification that IÉ are coming forward with. Whether thats fair or not is up for debate but thats the purpose of it.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971868#Comment_121971868

But the point is that with an aspirational document, if they are recommending it (rather than some new lines), then you have to pause.

The journey time posts are not great- 5 mins extra from Maynooth? Why not include the whole line? Have you factored in electrification of part of the line, new signalling…? If you are coming to as little as 5 minute without that then I’d say it isn’t as big an issue as you are suggesting.

You keep saying a diminution of service - yet more frequency is not included in your definition of service.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975171#Comment_121975171

There would be an increased number of services and sweating of the assets available with this proposal.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974400#Comment_121974400

You haven’t doubled capacity on the Bray-Connolly line tho.

It won’t do anything to change demand north of Shankill in to the city.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974249#Comment_121974249

I don’t think it’s about the size of the budget. What will it cost versus return?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975188#Comment_121975188

Re the AIRR - it’s still only draft and there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be implemented. Years of reading reports that have ended up gathering dust tells me that much. I’ll take it with a degree of skepticism for now.

Re-read my post on Sligo - I did factor in electrification.

And my point is that it is not just 5 minutes, it’s 5 minutes added to the 9 minutes longer that the the Sligo trains are already taking between Connolly and Maynooth when compared with older timetables. The journey times on that route are just getting longer and longer.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975267#Comment_121975267

And that I don't know the equation to. At the end of the day, IR won't be taking anything I say on board, but if governments are serious about getting people away from private transport, then they need to be more ambitious. Because the contuined building going on around here is only going to cause further and further congestion on the n11.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975269#Comment_121975269

I don't know why some people are excusing longer and longer jounery times. I would have thought it was something we should be striving to reduce and make it a selling point to get communters out of their cars. We're too quick to settle for mediocre in this country.