DART+ (DART Expansion)

loco_scolo

@endoftheroad People spend over an hour on Dublin Bus every day, twice a day. Or any other public transport service, or private vehicle for that matter. They manage just fine without a toilet.

Pick your arguments here!!

CatInABox

Be interesting to see the effects of the Dart going to once every 5/6 minutes. Even with the signal upgrades, this is still going to massively effect every IC that had to come in on any track that isn't quad.

Probably a long time off for now, but it is still IRs eventual aim.

prunudo

its not just about toilets, you could have over 200 people standing around for an hour.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980096#Comment_121980096

You’ve never travelled with a toddler, young child, pregnant woman, old person or person with kidney problems, have you?

This isn’t a good option for those people, or people with baggage or people who want to be comfortable in long trips so it will drive them to alternate options like buses or cars. Other people will be happy with the improved frequency and the lack of IC facilities won’t bother them.

Let’s not pretend this is perfect, it’s a compromise. Snide remarks about people holding their bladder is a great way of discussing it.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980934#Comment_121980934

To be fair, I fully acknowledge it isn't perfect. It's the most constrained line going into Dublin, which is unfortunate but very real. I fully support the requirement for decent facilities at whichever interchange station is chosen.

Comparison of lines:

The Northern line has only 6 stations between Connolly and Clongriffin where a passing 3rd line will be constructed.

The Sligo line has 11 stations between Maynooth and Connolly, but also benefits from 4 tracks between Glasnevin Junction and Connolly/Spencer Dock.

The SW line will have 4 tracks all the way into Heuston from HH, currently 3.

The Southern line has 17 stations between Greystones and Connolly and a section of single alignment.

Big difference...

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980123#Comment_121980123

I must be missing something. I am not suggesting every train be turned at Bray, just one or two. Passengers are not turfed out, they just change trains.

A train can travel from Rosslare to Connolly without having to be serviced. Presumably it travelled from Connolly to Rosslare originally. But it cannot run from Wexford to Bray without having to run to Connolly for service.

What I am suggesting is quite simple. The Wexford train travels to Bray (run time 1 hr 50 min) and parks in Platform 3. Passengers transfer across the platform to a waiting Dart, which then sets off for Connolly (run time 45 min). That is the same arrival time that the original Wexford train would have arrived at. Now the connecting Dart from Connolly arrives in platform 2 and passengers cross to platform 3 onto the waiting train that then sets off for Wexford. This Wexford train will have spent 3 hours travelling.

If the train leaves Wexford at 6 am, it will arrive in Bray at 7 45 am. Say it leaves Bray at 8 am, it will arrive in Wexford at 9 45 am. That is well over two hours earlier than the current timetable. One train doing this would be a huge improvement in service to Wexford from Dublin.

By car, Wexford to Bray Dart Station does an average speed 90 km/h vs the train averages 67 km/h. Bring that up to 120 km/h would bring travelling time to about 60 mins. That would be huge by increasing the number of passengers and makes better use of the rolling stock.

There must be reasons why this cannot happen.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981162#Comment_121981162

sam the diesels are serviced at connolly and sets are swapped out along with the rest of the maintenence regime, none of this is going to be changed so the diesels are just going to run to connolly empty regardless.

so that alone puts paid to what you are looking for as well as the fact that turfing people off on to a dart doing the same couple of stops just makes no sense anyway.

if you are doing that then it's on to the all stops or just run the diesel with passengers.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980633#Comment_121980633

not a valid comparison seeing as dublin bus passengers expect what they get when traveling on those services.
why would i pick my arguments when in reality all of the arguments are in favour of my side of the debate.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980302#Comment_121980302

I had thought of this before too. From north of Enniscorthy to around Muine Bheag would be about 35km, although the terrain would be difficult. A much better option than reopening the south Wexford line in any case.

This is the thing which annoys me about the AISRR, it includes a line from Portadown to Mullingar and Portadown to Derry/Letterkenny but not an actually strategically beneficial line like that (Wexford - Waterford line link) which would maximise the existing network. Wexford - Dublin via the south Wexford line would be a crap service and couldn't complete with buses.

I really think the last several pages of discussion of services south of Greystones should be split into a separate thread. It is obviously linked to DART+ but also goes way beyond it.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981216#Comment_121981216

If the route is changed to include an interchange, then that's what customers will come to expect. They may not agree with that level of service, but once they know, then they know...

Insisting on referring to an interchange as "being turfed out", says a lot for your argument. If an argument has legitimate weight, then you shouldn't need to use hyperbole to argue it.

To be clear, there are v.legitimate concerns here, but you do a disservice to those with your language.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981309#Comment_121981309

Difficult to separate them, since the argument for changing the Wexford terminus is directly linked to Dart, but I agree it's better in a separate thread, perhaps the AIRR one?..

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981309#Comment_121981309

Waterford/Wexford connection is in the AIRR? I think the goal is in future Wexford services will go up that alignment instead.

jd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981432#Comment_121981432

Yes, from what I remember single line would be electrified Waterford-Rosslare Harbour and also a reinstated Felthouse Junction to a new station in South Wexford, presumably just inside the ring road. Trains would run Heuston-Waterford-Wexford-Rosslare. With 200 km/hr running Heuston - Waterford, that would be about 1 hr 10 or 15. Then 25 - 30 mins Waterford to Wexford. That's a long way into thefuture, if ever.

KrisW1001

Wexford is not on the Rosslare-Waterford line. Maybe it should be. I think it should, but I'll leave that as a discussion for an Inter-City route thread, as neither Waterford nor Wexford are ever going to be served by DART...

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981315#Comment_121981315

no, it's not what customers will come to expect as they wonn't bother with it at all as there is absolutely no service worth bothering with over the car with this plan.
at least the current service dispite it's many faults has some little thing to offer.
being turfed out is exactly what it would be, it's just fact, and to the point and it's the correct way to argue against this discredited laughable embarrassment of a proposal.
the arguments against it are the only arguments full stop.
i do a disservice to nothing, those of us against this nonsense have won because we will be proven right on absolutely every claim if this is implemented.

G_R

You keep saying "this discredited proposal". Where has it been discredited? Or have you just decided that it won't work?

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121981216#Comment_121981216

“all of the arguments are in favour of my side of the debate.”
This isn’t how debates are had - play nice.

spacetweek

It’s probably already been thought of, but post Dart+ can’t Sligo trains depart ex Spencer Dock, so at least they could bypass Connolly to Glasnevin for a speed improvement?

Zebra3

Won’t there be some DARTs using that line as well?

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982827#Comment_121982827

Ideally intercity trains should depart from the most central train station in the city. If Glasnevin to Connolly line is too full, can't they just use Docklands line fron Glasnevin, then use the Newcomen Curve to reach Connolly?

Ronald Binge Redux

Mostly positive feedback from train commuters in an article in this morning's IT. The clinching argument is earlier and more frequent trains.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983040#Comment_121983040

Drumcondra is a busy destination for the Sligo train. If they use Newcomen there's also the congestion is causes when the train then has to get to the yard or fueling point.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983069#Comment_121983069

Yes overall seems very positive. Lots of support from actual users for the plan.

I find it strange that one guy wants the IC direct to the city, so he can work while commuting, but says he will just drive from Gorey to Wicklow instead if they cut the direct service. Does he plan on working while driving?

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/04/06/many-passengers-on-board-with-plans-to-ditch-direct-dublin-rosslare-trains/

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983069#Comment_121983069

There are 4 trains per day running from Rosslare port to Connolly - per day. Five per day from Wexford and six per day from Gorey.

There is a 10 min service from Bray to Connolly, and a 30 min Greystones Dart service to Bray and beyond, with the Rosslare service added to it..

Those two services are massively different. No-one could look at the two as comparitive.

With a ten minute service, a passenger does not even consult a timetable or on-line service predicter. For the service south of Bray, one should consult both. Whether the extension of the Dart service and turnaround on the diesel commuter/IC trains is Greystones, Wicklow, Arklow, or Gorey is irrelevant unless there are more trains, and punctuality is certain. Stopping patterns are of course important as well.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121982827#Comment_121982827

Why cant all the Sligo/Longford Trains use Spencer Dock now?

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983293#Comment_121983293

As mentioned above, Drumcondra is a big stop for the InterCity services.

Also Spencer Dock only has two platforms. That said, I'm not sure if there is enough overlap in the peak-time M3 Parkway services to where both platforms would be occupied by them and have no room for the InterCity.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983332#Comment_121983332

We keep talking about interchanging here so could the people that on Longford/Sligo trains not interchange at broombridge for Drumcondra and south of the liffey?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983254#Comment_121983254

But is Drumcondra a busy destination for the Sligo train because of passengers from Maynooth who will in future be using DARTs to make that journey instead? Once Metrolink opens, Glasnevin would be a much better stop for Sligo trains, Drumcondra would be pointless a that stage.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983408#Comment_121983408

Not really. You get some people who use it, as it's quicker to get into Connolly. But there's a large number of students who travel up from the country on that train, who get off at Drumcondra. Often more than get off in Connolly.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983293#Comment_121983293

It's not well connected for passengers to get to/from. And you still have the issue of congestion when you need to get a train down there from the yard in Connolly. You could always reconnect the link with North Wall, and there's room down there to store trains. But that won't happen in reality. Especially since they are also building a new freight terminal in North Wall shortly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983332#Comment_121983332

Two platforms, but you can run four trains out of there in theory. And they regularly run two trains off one platform.