DART+ (DART Expansion)

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983332#Comment_121983332

Are we talking about the existing Docklands Station (2 platforms) or the planned Spencer Dock station? The latter will have 4 platforms and can serve as a terminus for both canal and drumcondra routes. But as far as I recall, it will not take diesel trains.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983844#Comment_121983844

When Metrolink opens, Glasnevin will be a much better place to stop than Drumcondra. Both would be overkill. Anyone wanting to get off at Drumcondra can change to a DART stopping there at an earlier station.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984139#Comment_121984139

I'd imagine the Sligo train won't call at Drumcondra once Metrolink is up and running, and stop at Glasnevin instead. A lot of the students that get off at Drumcondra now, would be connecting to the metro, which is closer to their destinations anyway.

But then the Sligo train will get delayed anyway with the extra frequency Dart West trains. There's ways to get around them, but they don't use them currently, unless they really need to. I know the removal of level crossings, and ETCS will speed things up somewhat. But you can get from Mullingar to Connolly direct in about 40 mins if there's no other stops or trains in the way.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984594#Comment_121984594

Mullingar to Connolly in 40 minutes would be incredible. :-)

Methinks you mean Maynooth to Connolly. That journey takes 34-36 mins as it is with one stop.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984715#Comment_121984715

No, I mean Mullingar to Connolly alright.

A1ACo

Has there Ever been a more divisive rail thread!?! ☹

But Yes, from an Efficiency standpoint - it will probably be more efficient to put:

The ‘A’ Infrequent, lesser stopping service (possibly long-distance) (e.g. inter-city)

&

‘B’ Frequent, and Frequent stopping (shorter-distance) service (e.g. DART)

- shuttling ‘A’ & ‘B’ on opposite sides of the same Interchange point.

But, I think that for passengers on long-distance, longer time (1hr+) ‘A’ services (think of the straw that broke the Camel’s back) – any slowing down, and/ or increases of stopping for people on the shorter 'B' leg – will be annoying.

(This can also hold true for people travelling on longer distance Dublin Bus services into the city (with a few stops in the city/ inner suburbs for those making a short hop, but with other bus options, slowing the service for passengers on longer journeys).

Re: ‘All change!’/ de-train off Intercity at Greystones, or Bray – into/from City - Nobody on a 1-hour service, never mind a 1.5+ hours service I think is going to want to change onto a lesser and possibly standing service for the last 1-hour/ 45 mins (even if it happens to be a little faster).

As for toilets, for people in cars and buses there is an easy ‘escape’,.. but you would be ‘captive’ on a train with no toilet, with very few toilets in stations along the way, and less ‘peace of mind’ as no option of ‘comfort rests!’.

People and passengers are always going to want more convenience, comfort and lazy options… vs. route efficiency - not everyone is going to be happy!

A1ACo

If keeping long-distance, inter-city services all the way into Dublin city, would:

A BEMU Shuttle between Wicklow – Bray (3rd platform) - for an extra path between Greystones and Bray – take some of the pressure out of conflicts/ compromises!?

Maybe improvements to Wicklow/Rosslare? route –

Add set onto Intercity trains? i.e. a 3-car or 4-car extra onto peak, existing 3 or 4-car set

(maybe city bound ‘turn-off’ trailing, extra set until at longer stations (if too long for smaller stations)?.. and outbound advise passengers to get off at front of train?)

Fix whatever needs to be fixed, so that Dublin bound, Intercitys don’t wait outside Greystones until the DART has arrived (onto the opposite platform!)… Though I saw one instance recently where i think it blessedly didn’t wait as long!

Also, fix seemingly frequent enough delays of a few minutes each morning Dublin bound to Greystones direction, etc.

Add more shelters to platforms (including with no side panels if walking down width of platforms is a bit of an issue?).

Note ‘separately’ – there is a proposed Wicklow-Greystones Greenroute – for beside the train line and I think is stated to not interfere with the line’s future…

Wicklow to Greystones (wicklowgreenways.ie)

…though if finances at a future stage become an issue,.. I’d prefer the more mundane commuter option of upgrading the Wicklow-Greystones rail line to get the money - instead of the recreational/tourist, walking/ cycling Greenway getting it). Though there could be use of Environmental Studies etc. used for the proposed Greenway for any major rail improvement projects of the Wicklow-Greystones line…

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984928#Comment_121984928

The DMU running empty back to Connolly each night takes 65 minutes with nothing against it, 33 of which are between Mullingar and Maynooth, so I think you're pushing things a bit with a 40 minute claim for that entire journey.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985065#Comment_121985065

I’ve always been impressed by the depth of your knowledge on this topic but how on earth do you know the running time of an out of service train? You really are playing 3D chess! 😃

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985065#Comment_121985065

I’m not referring to that path. I’ll pull out the log for the journey I’m referring to. It’s not from the WTT.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985980#Comment_121985980

I posted that as an example as it’s the clearest example of how long it takes.

40 minutes is impossible from Mullingar to Connolly without seriously breaking the speed limits.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985889#Comment_121985889

I second that! Also curious how you know the old running times way back when? Is this information available somewhere? @LXFlyer

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986080#Comment_121986080

I think I originally said about 40 minutes. So slightly above, and definitely not as high as 50.

Citizen Six

Working timetable gives details of out of service train paths.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985889#Comment_121985889

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986320#Comment_121986320

I really think that you are mistaken about this. That’s still shaving 10-15 minutes off the only non-stop service there is, which has no conflicts.

I was particularly interested in the train that I quoted above, because when the 20:50 to Mullingar was being introduced, I asked why couldn’t it be an hour later, and it was explained that it had to come back empty to do the last train on the Northern Line after going to Mullingar.

So, when I was fortunate enough to see a copy of the working timetable, I specifically checked the running times of that train as I reckoned it would be a good template for a non-stop path between the two locations. And I took a detailed note of it.

The fastest scheduled non-stop journey times between Connolly and Mullingar that I can recall is 60 minutes and that was 20 years ago. That was the evening Dublin-Sligo which had a completely clear run (the train ahead of it to Maynooth left Connolly over 20 mins beforehand).

Hence I do believe that anything sub-50 is just extraordinary.

These sort of things matter when you’re discussing the impact of DART+ on overall journey times for Intercity services. It needs to be realistic and not extraordinary.

For the record, analysing timetables, be they for buses, trains, aircraft is my “thing” in life outside of work. I can happily spend hours looking at how schedules are constructed and trying to see what could be done to improve them (if anything). I’ve timetables across all three modes going back to the 1970s stored away.

Hence the likes of bustimes.org is manna from heaven for the likes of me, as you can see what a vehicle does during the course of the day.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979935#Comment_121979935

You appear to be in the minority.

The daily users of the line want more frequency and are happy for the trade off.

What Irish Rail did even 10 years ago let alone 40 is not that relevant to today.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990049#Comment_121990049

I'd like to see what way the survey questions were phrased, as I would be surprised if @end of the roads opinion was the minority. Thats not to say people don't want increased frequency, just about loosing the train all the way to Connolly.

gjim

Regular/daily users are going to value increased frequency more highly and the change in Bray would just become routine. Such users - regular/daily - generally do not carry lots of luggage so the inconvenience of the change will be minimal. When I was a daily train commuter, changing trains was never a bother.

It's the infrequent users who are most likely to complain. But in terms of passenger trips generated, these users contribute much less to the viability of the line compare to daily/frequent users. Yeah, yeah, it's not "fair" or something, but track capacity is finite and so needs to be used as efficiently as possible.

Reversal

Why do Phoenix Park Tunnel services go so slowly between Hueston and Drumcondra? Is it the bend or something else about the track?

Can this be resolved, is there plans to improve speeds with DART+ SW?

KrisW1001

Could be the track. Videos I've seen of trains going through suggest that the track isn't very flat.

The Railway Order drawings for DART+ SW show that IÉ intends to lay completely new track through the tunnel, as well as adding the overhead electric lines.

LXFlyer

As per the Network Statement on the Irish Rail website there is a 30mph permanent speed restriction on that line.

Remember too that it’s really a link between two different networks, the Heuston side and the Connolly side, and consequently in order for the trains to work there would be a need to add additional time to allow for potential delays between the two networks.

bikeman1

In general Irish Rail trains amble along at best. They've been slowed down so much over the years. The DART itself was over 10 minutes faster Howth to Bray. They crawl into the platforms. Electric trains should move much faster than the DART. Just look at Germany or the Netherlands to see how they drive their electric trains on stopping suburban services.

I must dig out some of my old timetables. From memory, the old 08:00 to Sligo was given 22 minutes to Maynooth and something like 30 minutes Maynooth to Mullingar. Not 40 minutes, but I recall under the hour.

On a Friday, the 17:05 was first stop Longford - always heaving full too as there were only 3 regular services to Sligo and one additional 15:55 Friday only.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991783#Comment_121991783

For the most part its curvature, but there is a straight bit through Cabra which could be faster if they wanted. Also on the approaches to both Islandbridge and Glasnevin junctions there are often delays - yellow lights will slow you if the junction ahead is not clear in plenty of time. So overall, the exixtence of these two junctions with lots of scope for conflicting movements will slow things down. The timetable may be padded to allow for this.

If all Dart SW trains were to use just the North-facing tracks to Hezlehatch, when 4-tracking is completed right in to Islandbridge, that would get rid of a lot of potential conflicts.

loyatemu

the southside Dart is ridiculously slow in places.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991783#Comment_121991783

The track outside the tunnel isn't old. As far as I know, it has concrete sleepers and welded rail. I think the issue is the five sharp(ish) bends and the grade from just outside Heuston to Connolly. That means reduced speed for medium to heavy trains. Light rail with over head lines could probably handle the inclines and bends better. (I do not know for sure though)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991904#Comment_121991904

You do also have extra stops on the DART since it opened. Every stop adds at least 2 mins to the journey time and there are more conflicts at Connolly too with additional Maynooth and PPT services that don’t help.

noelfirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121990540#Comment_121990540

This exactly. And it speaks to why a mix of direct/indirect trains is a sensible approach - those less frequent travellers with substantial luggage, etc. and/or more flexibility in regards to their timing can opt for a direct train. Those regular commuters with a laptop bag/backpack etc. can and will get on the first one that comes and change without a second thought when they need to. It's not perfect, but as mentioned, manages a finite resource.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991931#Comment_121991931

how much of this slow speed would be caused by trying to sync with level crossings?

edit:- ot but anyone else experiencing problems with auto correct when typing replies on boards.

riddlinrussell

The problem with the above is that given the existing resources of the available track, running that direct train seems to prevent the desired frequency from being achievable. Maybe the rare direct train is possible, but it's unlikely all 'infrequent' users will need to go at the same time, so many of them will either take the car or put up with the change to Dart

Sam Russell

If Metrolink gets extended to Bray, then there is that alternative for passengers travelling from Greystones or Wicklow to change onto a faster more frequent service into the city centre.

It all adds connectivity to frequent rail connections.