DART+ (DART Expansion)

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975261#Comment_121975261

How much of the coastal line commuting northbound alights at Tara St./Pearse/GCD, probably a decent chunk right? Being conservative, call it 30% of Northbound commuters. over 3000 board at Bray and Greystones on a given day, this will be more if we are terminating Rosslare services there also, and more again if we are moving to an hourly schedule. If that is putting additional pressure on the core, those commuters can then instead opt for Metrolink instead. We are never going to be able to quad the coastal line but this is the next best thing.

Bsharp

I'd be concerned that trying to get the DMU Rosslare service through the dart+ system could have negative consequences for reliability across the board. Its meant to be a 5min frequency from Bray to the City Centre. Trying to ensure one of these Dart paths is seamlessly replaced by a DMU path coming from Rosslare every hour seems like a risky plan; based on where we are right now in terms of network reliability and train control. The likelihood is the DMU will regularly miss the slot, get terminated short, and passengers will be forced to switch. An unacceptable but realistic outcome.

Getting much more frequent DMU services to Greystones, that don't have potential to disrupt DART+ Timetabling seems more reliable, and therefore prudent. If we got an DMU hourly shuttle integrating with Dart+ it would be a vast improvement. The simpler the network to operate the better until we build up expertise at operating a bigger and more complex network.

Being on honest about it, we're going to struggle to operate Dart+ for the first few years given the step change in services involved. It's defeatist but I was here before in another jurisdiction and there were hard lessons to be learnt.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975713#Comment_121975713

The resignalling will allow for far more paths than will be needed across the DART network for years to come. There will be more resilience due to the far shorter signal sections.

I note that no one is suggesting that the Sligo train should terminate at Maynooth. Yet that line will be even busier than the southeastern east of Clonsilla, and will face exactly the same issue with an hourly DMU path slotting in between DART services between Maynooth and Glasnevin Junction at the very least.

orb123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975713#Comment_121975713

Makes sense. Punctuality on the line this year so far ranged from 69.6%- 77.1%. A 5-minute DART frequency after DART+ would likely make things even worse if they tried to force direct services . Given our history with political fudges in this country, I think we will end up with a handful of direct services, with the rest requiring interchange with the DART.

The existing infrastructure south of Greystones is significantly underutilised, so it makes sense to utilise that capacity through the use of a shuttle in the short to medium term. Some people have raised concerns about journey times, but in last year's timetable consultation, the top request nationally was to increase service levels on the line, while reducing journey times ranked much lower at #21. I think the main issue is making the shuttle as convenient as possible for passengers to use.

Perhaps it's worth considering trialling an increased service using DART interchanges on weekends (currently there are only 3 or 4 services on weekends) to get passengers used to the idea.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975866#Comment_121975866

Journey times are less of an issue on the Heuston side as there aren’t the same capacity constraints - it’s a Connolly side issue principally.

spacetweek

DART+ will potentially have issues for long-distance services for all four radial heavy rail lines in Dublin.

One is already sorted – Dart+ Southwest is already 4-tracked, and the AIRR proposes solutions for two more - the Belfast line is to be 3/4-tracked from Connolly to Clongriffin with a new build alignment from there to Drogheda and the Sligo line is to have a new build from Maynooth to somewhere near Hazelhatch. This would allow Sligo trains to use the 4-tracked alignment to terminate in Heuston.

That just leaves the Wicklow line, but as suggested above the best plan will be to shuttle from Bray/Greystones to Wexford at rush hour with direct services at off-peak times when the DARTs are less frequent.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976141#Comment_121976141

I’m aware of the AIRR plans but DART+ West for example will already be in situ for some significant time before any new alignments see the light of day. We have to be realistic about this.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976185#Comment_121976185

True, but the option is there. Not simple, but possible and not gonna cost an extortionate amount.

Bray-Connolly just doesn’t have it.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975855#Comment_121975855

Ah if there was a single line section between Maynooth and Leixlip, through tunnels around a cliff edge, I'm confident we'd be having a similar dicussion.

The risks are less apparent for Maynooth corridor, the impact of any delays will be very much felt by passengers on the Sligo service though. Its good to see this recognised in the AI SRR so these issues can be addressed. The signalling might be fine but its the platform capacity that's in shorter supply

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976232#Comment_121976232

Functionally it amounts to the same as the Bray/Wicklow line. Both are alignments we will likely be living with for at least 10 years after Dart+ is complete. Finding pathing for IC services on all of the heavy rail routes into Dublin is going to be extremely challenging.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976267#Comment_121976267

Can't agree with this enough. Someone needs to be given responsibility for the planning of nationwide conventional rail, so we assess commuter needs and intercity needs as one if they're to use the same track and platforms.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975855#Comment_121975855

There are only 10 stations between Maynooth and Connolly versus 17 stations between Greystones and Connolly. The Sligo line has two additional tracks available (along the canal) from Glasnevin Junction, versus a section of single alignment between Greystones and Bray.

It's not the same comparison.

The proposal for Wexford is a medium term solution to allow higher Dart and Intercity capacity. Ultimately the plan is to send Wexford trains via Waterford directly into Heuston. Even with no speed improvements, and assuming Rosslare-Waterford is reopened, 2hrs 45mins would be possible between Wexford and Heuston. This is only 10mins slower than at present and that's assuming absolutely no speed improvements on the line.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976449#Comment_121976449

Ultimately the plan is to send Wexford trains via Waterford directly into Heuston.

There is no plan though. Yes, it's in the AIRR but currently for all intents and purposes the Rosslare/Waterford railway does not exist, nor does the Maynooth/Hazelhatch link, nor does four tracking the Northern line etc. None of these proposals are costed, nor are we even sure they are happening.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976833#Comment_121976833

Fine! The overall point (being made by multiple people) is that the proposal for Wexford trains is a medium term plan to improve capacity on Dart and Intercity.

Terminating a commuter/intercity train 20km outside the city center is clearly not ideal. But it's not a long term plan. Look how quickly Foynes works have happened. It sets a very high precedent for the Rosslare-Waterford section.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976952#Comment_121976952

This is fine, I just don't love being under the illusion that this is a temporary solution and better things are coming down the line. Nothing more permanent than a temporary fix. Better to make practical decisions about railway infra thats currently in the pipeline and could get planning and funding.

Terminating in Wicklow/Greystones rather than Bray is kicking the can very firmly down the road IMHO. They are going to need to figure out some way of fixing that bottle neck because otherwise one day the line will fall into the sea and that will be that. Also Foynes is a freight railway, a totally different spec of railway to a fully signalled for example Rosslare/Waterford re-establishment or Maynooth/Hazelhatch

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976141#Comment_121976141

Any more information on this Maynooth to Hazelhatch link?

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977015#Comment_121977015

The level of works underway on Foynes is very significant. It's being reinstated with passenger services in mind, so it's a very relevant comparison to Rosslare-Waterford. However, that's moving off topic for the Dart thread.

I'd be quite optimistic that the current proposal for Wexford is truly a short to medium term one. But unfortunately the country has set a very poor precedent, so only time will tell.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977169#Comment_121977169

Its a line on a map in the AIRR document, nothing else has been set beyond that.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977264#Comment_121977264

Minimum 3 decades away so. 😂

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977602#Comment_121977602

90% of the things "recommended" in the AISRR is mnimum 3 decades away. It isn't worth referencing in terms of actual rail investment.

IsaacWunder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976952#Comment_121976952

To suggest that the commuter/intercity train is being terminated 20 km shy of the city centre is nothing short of hyperbole. What is actually being proposed is a slight inconvenience: hopping from one train to another. The sweetener? A promise of trains coming and going with greater frequency. And the passengers still get to arrive at Connolly, or Pearse, or Grand Canal Dock.

Take the Dublin to Limerick route: most trains require passengers to change at Limerick Junction. Yes, a few direct trains run from Heuston to Limerick (about 3 or 4 in both directions each day), but by and large, passengers are happy to change given the more frequent services. The notion that the rail services to Limerick terminate in the wilderness of Limerick Junction or that Limerick itself has vanished from the rail map is a fairy tale. Ditto for the services onto Killarney and Tralee.

And let’s not delude ourselves regarding how central Heuston Station is. It is a spot that's only city centre if your day’s itinerary includes a trip to the Criminal Courts of Justice or the Phoenix Park. For the average John or Mary arriving into Heuston, their destination is invariably in Dublin 1 or 2. Whether it's a meeting in an office, retail on Grafton St, a night on the tiles, or a trip to Lansdowne or Croker, the last part of every journey invariably involves the Luas, a bus or a taxi.

For example, someone planning to take a train from Limerick city center to O’Connell St in Dublin would typically change trains at Limerick Junction and then switch to the Luas. Based on some comments here, that journey would be impossible, or that the service would be unpopular. However, the train not only remains the fastest mode of transportation between Limerick and Dublin, but the more frequent and reliable service offered means that people can actually plan their days out a little looser so they have a meeting overrun by 15 minutes, it’s not the end of the world.

Ronald Binge Redux

Not my letter, but this one in today's IT encapsulates the mistrust so many have about connecting services.

'A chara, – Might I suggest some joined-up thinking on scheduling the proposed train and Dart switch somewhere in Co Wicklow? Have the connecting service waiting to pick up passengers from one to the other leaving within five minutes of arrival, including announcements of any delays on both beforehand. Unlike what currently often happens at bus terminuses at Luas and other transport destinations, where connecting buses gleefully sail away in view of arriving passengers. – Yours, etc,

FRANK McMULLAN,

Dublin 8.'

KrisW1001

Bus and Luas are independent services, and it's not practical or desirable to delay buses if trams aren't running to time.

DART and commuter trains, however should be possible to synchronise, given that they're part of the same network.

Munich used to have a similar arrangement on its S2 S-Bahn line. Until the branch was electrified, service from Dachau to Altomünster was by diesel train. When you got to Dachau, that outbound diesel shuttle (The S-Bahn "A" service) was waiting on the platform opposite. The inbound S-Bahn trains in turn would dwell at Dachau to allow for delays in the incoming A service.

That service is now a fully-fledged branch of S2, but I believe it's still a shuttle, abd and still runs on a fairly low 30 minute peak interval, dropping to 60 minutes off peak.

What's being proposed here is not outlandish.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978974#Comment_121978974

The issue northside is the delays around Connolly due to congestion. But Commuters do often delay slightly for Dart passengers that are transferring. Similarly for Luas passengers transferring at Broom Bridge, travelling west.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975866#Comment_121975866

this is quite simple really.

a shuttle from the wexford line connecting into dart is convenient for nobody, not dart passengers or the full trains using the rosslare services who would be turfed onto already over-crowded or will be very quickly up the line over-crowded services.
some stupid trial at weekends to get passengers used to something we aren't going to bother with and will not ever allow is a waste of everyone's time.
there is plenty of room for a frequent dart and frequent rosslare services, the fact they are operating a 10 minute service dispite many of us saying it wasn't possible with the minimal infrastructure shows it and with future signalling as pointed out paths increase again.
i mean it''s not as if the rosslare paths are going to be freed up anyway as the diesels are serviced at connolly and are swapped around and have big maintenence done at portlaoise and droghida, none of which is going to change, so they will just run empty to connolly anyway.

the service pattern for rosslare services will be a direct service to dublin, not a political fudge but reality and it will be delivered as there is enough power now to insure it.

end of the road

only for those not using either the wexford services or the darts they will be turfed on to.

this is only the best plan for a couple of posters on boards.ie and a clueless unelected so-called transport authority.

forget it, it's not going to happen.

Sam Russell

The current service from Dublin to Wexford is not much use if you want to be there in the morning.

Currently, turning one or two services around at Bray early in the morning would change that. Arriving at platform 3 would allow passengers to simply cross the platform onto a waiting Dart. That Dart could have the same stopping pattern as the service it replaces.

end of the road

this was supposed to quote the post by IsaacWunder.

it's not a slight inconvenience.
it's throwing passengers off an intercity/regional service with all of the types of people traveling including with luggage etc, on to an already over-crowded or will be quite soon up the line over-crowded suburban service.
the supposed sweetener for this **** service, something they could deliver direct to dublin today if the drivers and rolling stock were available wich once dart + is running it will.
so we lose, a mostly comfortable direct service where we can work, sleep, whatever that brings us direct into the city centre.
in exchange for a service where we are turfed off to the suburban service, with increased journey times, only have a much shorter time to use the benefits the train actually has and all else, for an increased frequency of the subpar service perhapse?
nope, no thanks, you can shove it.
the dublin to limerick route is not a valid comparison as they are not being chucked on to a suburban service, and in actual fact limerick only has that change as a rolling stock saving exercise as it could absolutely support a direct all day service of at least 2 hours or even an hour, the change is not to increase frequencies there.
there is no evidence passengers are actually happy to change, they simply have no option because that is how it has been for decades, and chances are passenger numbers are being suppressed.

i mean we are rehashing the same arguments that have been done to death for a discredited idea only supported by a couple of people on boards, and the NTA who haven't got the message.

DaBluBoi

Anyone knows how much more frequency may increase in DART lines, under the proposals to axe direct services between Dublin and Co. Wexford? I understand that between Bray and Greystones it could increase to every 20 mins, haven’t seen any figures for Bray to City Centre tho.

Furthermore, will these proposals affect Dart+ South to a significant degree? Given that all trains using this line will be commuters and will stop at the exact same stations, would it make any significant difference to remove those level crossings? I understand that there’s more to the project than simply removing these crossings, though that seems like the biggest goal for Dart+ South atm

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974038#Comment_121974038

but the service is not being upgraded, it's actually being downgraded.
4 up and 5 down direct trains direct to the city which allows working and anything else, replaced with maybe, a more frequent service where passengers are turfed off to a suburban service, with increased journey times and losing the benefits the train offers.
it looks like an upgrade to you because you don't have to use it.
the whole point of this is to kill off services to wexford altogether, because if they were serious about increasing frequency and capacity, then they can do it without this discredited idea.
the only way there would be no change to journey times is if everyone was expected to stampede over to the other train which is stupidity and unrealistic and is not going to happen, an extra 10 to 15 minutes will be added to the journey time for nothing.
at least with longer journey times on direct services, people still get the benefits compared to the disbenefits they would be getting with this subpar service that is being proposed.