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Clean Air/Congestion Charging set to be introduced by 2030

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    So importing electric cars with all the environmental damage they are causing due to the production of batteries should be ignored, lets clean up our emissions lads, to hell with the destruction to the local environments caused buy all this mining and all the contaminated water supplies. Surely we don't think China is producing environmentally friendly batteries ffs ?

    We should be caring what other countries are doing because why should the government tax us so high on energy knowing full well whatever impact we might have on so called climate change is minuscule compared to any country in Asia yet the Irish Government deem it absolutely essential to tax people off the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Yes that's why I didn't move somewhere that didn't have any public transport. Didn't happen by accident.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    I never said it wasn't ? however, Dieselgate was caused by the meddling of the E.U and local governments in an area politicians are not experts in. The EPA were saying it for years the emissions from diesels is having a big impact on Ireland's air quality but politicians rarely do what's actually right but focus more on what other nations are doing and what's more popular, the Irish Government likes to go with the flow. If they didn't force diesel there wouldn't have been diesel gate, petrols were doing the job just fine.

    The moment the Irish Government dramatically changed the tax system in 2008 is when most people switched to Diesel and the consequence of that is more and more older diesels are on the road with much less petrols available, and the current fleet of cars will get much older as fuel is taxed so high and the cost of new cars especially new electrics are very expensive.

    People are stretched to the bone as it is without having to fork out for a new EV to save on fuel bills, many people are struggling to pay bills and mortgages and raise Children.

    If they had invested in proper public transport, Rail, Underground we wouldn't need so many cars but now we got flooded with SUVs which are far too big for many car parking spaces and streets in Ireland and even more expensive. Just because it's electric with cheap as chips tax doesn't mean we should have them on the streets.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I never said it wasn't ? however, Dieselgate was caused by the meddling of the E.U and local governments in an area politicians are not experts in. The EPA were saying it for years the emissions from diesels is having a big impact on Ireland's air quality but politicians rarely do what's actually right but focus more on what other nations are doing and what's more popular, the Irish Government likes to go with the flow. If they didn't force diesel there wouldn't have been diesel gate, petrols were doing the job just fine.

    So based on this, you're saying that dieselgate is partly the Irish government's fault???

    People are stretched to the bone as it is without having to fork out for a new EV to save on fuel bills, many people are struggling to pay bills and mortgages and raise Children.

    I've no intention of changing my little used 5 series to an EV - why do you think people are being forced into them? Surely a better option is for us to reduce our dependency on the private car (which is what the Greens would encourage) so I'm lost why you think this is a bad direction? Would the savings in not having to make car repayments, pay insurance, motor tax, NCT, servicing and fuel not be better in the pockets of those people you say are stretched?

    If they had invested in proper public transport, Rail, Underground we wouldn't need so many cars but now we got flooded with SUVs which are far too big for many car parking spaces and streets in Ireland and even more expensive. Just because it's electric with cheap as chips tax doesn't mean we should have them on the streets.

    There were plenty of people asking for better public transport back during the Celtic Tiger years (and before) but in general the public appetite wasn't there and it wasn't a vote winning direction. In fact the opposite was generally true with the Luas was being the only positive that I can think of in almost forty years (after the Dart). We gave tax breaks to create car parks. We had countless front page photos of politicans cutting the ribbon on a new section of motorway or dual carriageway. Can you think of any politicians back then unveiling a new range of busses or train carriages?

    As for SUVs, this is the direction that the car manufacturers want to go because they can charge more for one despite the consumer not getting anything more for their extra money. Plus the heavier design of SUVs means that we're losing out on much of the environmental benefits of newer technologies. However, Ireland i a small market and even if we were to ban SUVs, the manufacturers would be unlikely to bat an eyelid.

    Lastly, don't for a minute think that the motor tax on EVs will stay low! As more and more people move from ICE to EV, the tax income will decrease and this needs to be made up somehow. EV owners won't be forgotten about by the taxman!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    So based on this, you're saying that dieselgate is partly the Irish government's fault???

    I never said dieselgate was the fault of the Irish Government but I did say that The Irish Government E.U governments in General is what led up to dieselgate due to the fact the so heavily promoted Diesel.

    I've no intention of changing my little used 5 series to an EV - why do you think people are being forced into them? Surely a better option is for us to reduce our dependency on the private car (which is what the Greens would encourage) so I'm lost why you think this is a bad direction? Would the savings in not having to make car repayments, pay insurance, motor tax, NCT, servicing and fuel not be better in the pockets of those people you say are stretched?

    People are being forced into EV because of talks about ICE bans and high fuel charges.

    You used the word force not me ?

    There were plenty of people asking for better public transport back during the Celtic Tiger years (and before) but in general the public appetite wasn't there and it wasn't a vote winning direction. In fact the opposite was generally true with the Luas was being the only positive that I can think of in almost forty years (after the Dart). We gave tax breaks to create car parks. We had countless front page photos of politicans cutting the ribbon on a new section of motorway or dual carriageway. Can you think of any politicians back then unveiling a new range of busses or train carriages?

    In fairness, the motorways were essential, I remember the old road from Carlow to Dublin on the old N9, it was terrible.

    The old N9 to Waterford was worse in places, the Motorways did make a big difference, made travelling a lot safer but unfortunately none of the actually link up so I would have to go to Naas and back down the M7 again for Limerick if I wanted Motorway.

    As for SUVs, this is the direction that the car manufacturers want to go because they can charge more for one despite the consumer not getting anything more for their extra money. Plus the heavier design of SUVs means that we're losing out on much of the environmental benefits of newer technologies. However, Ireland i a small market and even if we were to ban SUVs, the manufacturers would be unlikely to bat an eyelid.

    Yes I agree, they want to make more money and it's a way to squeeze in more batteries for EVs.

    The Greens were on the radio maybe a month ago talking about a ban on making these cars in the first place through legislation in the E.U, obviously no car manufacturer cars about the Irish car market but they do care about the E.U market. Probably one of the few sensible things I heard them say. I'm not saying there should be an all out ban but they should be made to have many more smaller car options, hatches and even estates again, Saloons.

    Lastly, don't for a minute think that the motor tax on EVs will stay low! As more and more people move from ICE to EV, the tax income will decrease and this needs to be made up somehow. EV owners won't be forgotten about by the taxman!

    They have the sh1t taxed out of the motorist, yeah EV will eventually see higher tax but they are already seeing lower grants.

    I very quickly read a report, don't quote me that EV sales are down was it 14 or 24 % this year and calling on the Government to throw more incentives at them and I don't think this is a good idea to continue to throw money at car manufacturers and investors when we have no car industry ourselves , it makes no sense either way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What's that got to do with nuclear power, which (as your article confirms), they're not actually again in principle?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I will leave dieselgate because you don't seem to understand the history or what happened.

    The tax system didn't force people to buy new cars in 2008 as already pointed out

    The recommendation at the moment is to drive your car into the ground and then if you have to buy one then buy a environmentally friendly one or the most environmentally friendly you can afford.

    Also most cars are not SUV's, they are Crossovers, the flood of Crossovers started a long time ago and combustion cars. This was because of the US market and the car companies dumping cars because they can't sell in the US and concentrating on Crossovers.

    "cheap as chips tax" how much more is combustion cars compared to electrics in terms of road tax?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The 2008 car tax change has been done to death and honeslty the majority of posters on here don't seem to have a clue about it. It was also 16 years ago. Maybe time to get over it at this stage?

    Why would we roll bac measures to make Ireland cleaner and better for the population? that would be the most stupidest idea ever and not a single politician would ever do it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,125 ✭✭✭SeanW


    The gaslighting is strong here. I'm old enough to remember 2007/2008 when Minister Eamon Ryan cancelled two licenses for exploration for Uranium in Donegal. The stated reason was that: "The most likely end use of any uranium extracted in Ireland would be for nuclear electricity generation."

    https://www.constructionireland.ie/construction-news/69227/minister-ryan-calls-halt-to-uranium-exploration-in-ireland

    So the Green Party isn't against nuclear power "in principle" … and in other news, the sun shines brightest at midnight.

    Ironically, the us of nuclear energy would not only reduce our CO2 emissions dramatically, like it did in France, but also clean up our air (as we wouldn't need to burn fossil fuels for electricity) and potentially lower our energy bills (compare the cost of electricity between France and Germany/Ireland for example).



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    we need to not allow the Green party repeat mistakes of the past. 16 years is a very short time in a climate emergency. Their bad decisions have consequences that just can’t be blamed on VAG.

    Their hard core fan-bots are entering denial of service with relentless posting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Same thing happened over all over Europe, and many car manufactures. Maybe you'll explain how the The Irish Green Party achieved that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I'm not so sure.

    Cycle lanes by themselves are fine as car can enter them temporarily to get past a car turning right where there is no filter lane.

    When the cycle lane has bollards this becomes a problem, if it's a busy road then it becomes a very big problem.

    If there are two right turn junctions in close proximity to each other (but not an intersection) it becomes a huge problem as there is high chance of deadlock.

    Post edited by Beta Ray Bill on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's a myth, built up by anti active travel groups.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2021/dec/13/how-a-myth-about-london-bike-lanes-and-congestion-took-flight

    Can you point to any specific locations where the presence of a bike lane has caused congestion that wouldn't have been there previously?

    Honestly, it's hilarious to see the extent to which drivers will find anyone other than other drivers as responsible for congestion or anything. If you want to ease congestion, persuade people not to travel with an empty couch and empty armchair on the large percentage of journeys that are easily walked or cycled. If you don't like bollards, persuade drivers to stop parking on the non-bollarded cycle lanes and footpaths.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Isn't it amazing how these threads go way off topic to start ranting about mining uranium, hatred of minority groups and the Chinese burning coal! And not about tiny areas of a city where 99.99% of those ranting against it will never go anywhere near?

    Just get on with it Eamon!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Not a right turn but and example of how bollard cycle lanes made it very difficult to get emergency services to a mass brawl.

    Busy weekend, roads jammed and cars couldn't make room in the centre of the road for the Garda to get through because of the bollards around the cycle lanes.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/06/04/dublin-beach-evacuated-by-gardai-after-mass-brawl-of-teenagers/

    I believe it took the the Garda a number of hours to get control of the situation citing and inability to get Garda to the beach fast enough.

    That's a real world example, from only last year.

    The Road in itself (R105) is constantly jammed. Right turn either across the railway bridge, into Offington Park or down church road hold everything up because the car behind have to wait.

    Another example is the East Wall Road which has new added cycle lane that in parts has take enough of the road that some of the right turn filter lanes have been lost. Traffic is worse since the cycle lane went it. Also… Who the hell cycles to the port?
    A traffic survey was done for that road by DCC which said there were 700 cyclists using that road on the day of the survey.
    I know people that work on the East Wall Road and in the Port (well over 20 years) and there as never, and I mean NEVER been a time were 700 cyclists use that road daily. It is a complete fabrication by DCC. And it's ultimately wrong.

    I'm fully with you however on people parking in them. And the end of the day we just need enforcement. If a car is parked somewhere where it's not supposed to be parked just lift it, and if they want it back it's €1,000. Mind you, you'd probably get people dumping old cars by parking them where they're not supposed to be parked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Busy weekend, roads jammed and cars couldn't make room in the centre of the road for the Garda to get through because of the bollards around the cycle lanes.

    So emergency services couldn't get through because of roads jammed with cars, and of course the fault here lies with the cycle lanes

    LOL



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Am I seeing this right, you're linking to an article about a brawl that happened last June as a reason to get rid of some plastic bollards?

    And you have friends who stood out for an entire day on a road to count cyclists?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    They were able to get through before the bollards were there… So yeah, the bollards were the change, the inability of emergency vehicles to get through when it's busy is the consequence of that change.

    I don't care about traffic, I don't use that road in a car, if I'm going to Howth I use the train. I do care about the ability of emergency vehicles to access an area.

    The Garda themselves stated the problem was the bollards and they should be removed, but Green Religion says "no".

    Re: The number of cyclists, anyone with even an ounce of cop on knows there isn't 700 people cycling on that road during rush hour. We're told to just believe it though. And "blessed are those who believe without seeing". And if you don't believe in God Green Policy then you're a heretic a climate change denier. (Which I'm not btw I do believe it's happening)

    We need sensible policy about how we get people to use public transport and active travel, building cycle lanes everywhere is not sensible, particularly if they are rarely used.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    This sounds like a rant deep down the rabbit hole of an "Environmental Culture war"… Attacking active travel measures as part of that war, attacking the Green party as a religious cult … this deserves it's own thread surely… ?

    This isn't good for mental health…



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    he is of course, correct, that the bollards should not be there. there should simply be a mandatory bike lane painted there and motorists should obey it. but they don't; too many motorists feel entitled to park their cars wherever they damn well please, and the gardai don't police that. so the only other option to keep the lane clear for cyclists would appear to be bollards, which the gardai (ostensibly) then complain about. the gardai complaining about a measure put inn which in theory has saved them manpower in the long run, would be rich, if it's true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I'm sure there's 100's of examples of road design that people don't like which could fill boards.ie.. My point is that it's like a Culture war being fought here with the oppressed motorcar driver on one side and the righteous bicyclist on the other led by their messiah Eamon Ryan…

    It would be funny apart from the de-humanising of a tiny minority of road users that can lead to serious conflict out on the road…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Dieselgate wasn't restricted to VAG

    "hard core fan-bots" 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Yet the people who are spamming all social media across the web refer to environmentalist as "hard core fan-bots" 🤣

    The irony



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The reason why they have bollards is because people will use them and knock down people. Road safety is why and based on drivers a very good reason why

    If you don't believe me watch a bus lane for about 20 mins in any traffic, busy or not and see people sailing up it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Just part of the terms used in the "War" being raged across the Internet being brought into debates online, the war against Environmental science now dragged into the political area.. I dare say some are probably "Red Cap" wearing supporters too..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I drive in the city every day, if you have an emergency vehicle 50% of the people will just totally ignore them, others will move out of the way, of course if they are on the M50 you have a mad rush of people to try chase the emergency vehicle down the road in the path they have tried to create.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,125 ✭✭✭SeanW


    The poster was asked a specific question, which they answered:

    Can you point to any specific locations where the presence of a bike lane has caused congestion that wouldn't have been there previously?

    They responded by providing just such a specific example of a road that did not have congestion previously (or at least had less) but after bike lanes went in the road became so congested that emergency services vehicles could not get through it anymore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Do any of the articles about the brawl actually mention cycle lanes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There are loads of office parks and businesses around east wall and in the port. Lots of people living in the area.

    Why would it in only be used for the port. Makes no sense.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    I'd question the better handling bit? A quasi off road crossover style EV will not handle better than a low slung car that is half its weight, also in terms of responsive, a heavier object is not as responsive to changes in direction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I wasn't talking about Crossovers.

    A Golf TDI for instance is 1375kg based on a quick google, a eGolf is 1510kg

    Not close to half it weight



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    There is no difference in congestion, there is just now less ability to spill over into footpaths.

    The congestion remains the same as a result of too many cars



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,125 ✭✭✭SeanW


    According to the poster, there was more congestion after the changes than before. Ergo congestion was caused by the changes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There has been bad congestion on these roads long before cycle lanes and bus lanes.

    So bad there was no room for cycling or buses. All that's happening is some road space has now been reserved for other road users.

    So no congestion wasn't "caused" by changes.

    It has made it worse for cars, but better for other road users.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,776 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    As it happens, I don't know either location well enough to make any sensible comment.

    On the general issue, it's really hard to take the 'cycle lanes delaying emergency vehicles' as a good faith argument.

    What delays emergency vehicles 99% of the time is cars and vans and trucks, the normal everyday vehicles on our congested roads, every day. Parked vehicles and idiot drivers who ignore yellow boxes are a particular challenge too.

    If people are REALLY concerned about access to emergency vehicles, we need to have less cars on the road - so promoting alternative means of travel can only be a good thing.

    If we want emergency vehicles to be making less emergency trips, we need to have a healthier population, so promoting alternative means of travel that result in dramatic reductions in stroke, hypertension, cancer, diabetes, coronary heart disease and more can only be a good thing.

    If we don't want cycle lanes with bollards, then we need drivers to respect basic traffic markings and not park on cycle lanes and footpaths.

    Some people seem to take a very blinkered view, to suit their own agenda.

    On the traffic survey numbers, how many people would need to be involved in faking the results of a survey like this? Do you not think that any one of the five or ten people that would be involved would leak the fact of any faked survey to the press or to the Ditch or whoever?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    An eGolf is a limited range EV with a small battery and not properly reflective of the normal EV's out there.

    But as that is your selection:

    Your selected eGolf 0 to 100 kmph is 9.6, maximum speed of 150 kmph, range 201.2 km

    Golf 2.0 TDI Bluemotion 0 to 100 kmph 8.6, maximum speed of 214 kmph, range 1,086.96 km



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,125 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I suspect the Gardai that were stuck in traffic trying to get to that beach might consider this to be pointless hair splitting, as might all the other people stuck in congestion that hadn't existed previously. But we know that the congestion got worse even though the number of drivers presumably stayed the same. So it's clearly not the drivers.

    I find your phrasing to be quite weird, you seem to be insinuating that "cars" are road users. Last I checked, cars were not sentient beings acting on their own impetus but in fact were being driven by and carrying people. So the last line of your argument might have made more sense if it read: "It has made it worse for motorists, but better for other road users."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Why not compare it to the Mk7.5 GTI or the ID3 GTX performance if straight line speed is the metric.

    The comment was about handling and the Mk7.5 golf is the same platform in terms of handling. Quicker off the line and very slightly heavier.

    If you want performance and handling buy the GTI etc. though I dunno if most people will using the top speed. That's all top trumps.

    Also which exhaust do you want to be inhaling in traffic, or walking past it.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I do find it strange that a two lane road became completely blocked for no reason and that the congested traffic couldn't have pulled into the gaps on the road between the bollards to let the AGS cars by (or that the AGS cars couldn't have used the cycle path & footpath as they have done elsewhere).

    In addition, given that the bollarded sections are only along a few stretches of the along the Howth Road and not continuous and were (as already mentioned) placed there mainly to prevent illegal parking. What would have happened had there been no bollards but the road width constrained by illegally parked cars?

    Nonetheless, I'm struggling to find a single article that refers to the brawl on the Burrow Beach also referring to AGS being delayed getting there (and the cause of the delays). Maybe you or Tenzor can provide us all with an actual source?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I am speaking from experience, something which I think you are lacking in this scenario

    Below is a better view of the range on eGolf's.

    In terms of 0-100km I am not a racing driver so I don't care. In terms of max speed thats 120kmph

    You made a comment about weight, it was incorrect, so maybe admit that and move on.

    I would hazard I guess I have done more mileage in a combustion Golf and an eGolf than you so better to leave it at that

    https://ev-database.org/car/1087/Volkswagen-e-Golf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The ID is a different platform, in the ID they used more steel because weight was not as much as issue with electric to combustion.

    So to make a comparison of electric to combustion the eGolf v Golf seemed an excellent choice. Plus I had personal experience.

    Even at that, the ID.3 which has replaced the eGolf is starting at 1770kg, still a long way from twice the combustion car which was the original claim. Also the plan by VW is to bring back the eGolf and I can't wait. 😂



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Like others have alluded to; is the acceleration and top speed of the ICE car meant to suggest it's a better car?

    I've never once hit the top speed of my car, nor have I ever accelerated it to 100 maxed out. I have no desire to achieve either of those goals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,032 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Nope, wasn't me.. It was a reply to someone using isolated incidents like this as a rant against the use of plastic bollards or something…



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,774 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Apologies, it was Beta Ray Bill that made the allegation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    I didn't pick the pair, the poster I responded to did when I responded to him saying that "The majority of electric cars are faster, better handling, more responsive than a diesel car will ever be."

    They picked an eGolf V a TDI Golf in response, they are clearly wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Well when the poster I replied to said "The majority of electric cars are faster, better handling, more responsive than a diesel car will ever be." They selected acceleration and top speed not me, and also picked the two cars to compare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 771 ✭✭✭GSBellew


    Re read your original claim:

    "The majority of electric cars are faster, better handling, more responsive than a diesel car will ever be."

    You picked the eGolf & TDI, the electric variant is slower, heavier so will handle worse and be less responsive.

    My comment about weight, on average is correct, EV's are heavier, you claimed that EV's out handle a diesel, how?

    Three points you made

    Faster: Now you say you are not a racing driver so 0-60 or top speed are out

    Better Handling: How does the heavier car handle better, especially when the platform is identical?

    More Responsive: As above



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You could have picked a diesel Dacia Crossover and a Porsche Taycan.

    Golf GTI would be heavier than a Golf 1.0.

    Dunno what point your trying to make.

    .



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