Clean Air/Congestion Charging set to be introduced by 2030

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966202#Comment_121966202

One litter blackspot doesn't mean that it is all worse now than in the past. However, I'm not sure why they'd tell you that weed killer isn't allowed given that the councils won't stop spraying the stuff all over the place. I do know that many councils are moving away from chemical weed killers e.g. glyphosate towards something less toxic and/or organic.

It may also be because it is on Irish Rail land and the council don't have jurisdiciton there? Or it may be that the councillor simply coudn't be arsed.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966202#Comment_121966202

I doubt you've counted 10,000 cyclists and 40,000 cars.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966223#Comment_121966223

Its well known they've replaced a lot of parts with cheaper materials, metal with plastic for example. That kind of cost cutting is everywhere.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966225#Comment_121966225

Jaysis don't get me started on the "who responsible for what" layers of bureaucracy, Roads, Parks, Irish Rail, and the external contractors that are supposed to do the work but never turn up…. greatest P*ssing competition the world has ever seen. Council policy differs from council to council. DSCOCO policy differs on weed killer from Fingal and Dub City Council. (Differing Green Policies)

Fingal County council didn't allow floats that weren't electrically powered in their St Patrick's Day Parade. (Green Policy).. they make it up a they go along.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966251#Comment_121966251

Fair point, I've often wanted to take a day off work and stand on Fairview bridge and count mind you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966223#Comment_121966223

It's not just complexity and number of parts. Fundamental design issues are also at play. Things like EGR valves, AdBlu, DPF's etc are flawed designs that will cause issues very quickly under certain (but broad) conditions. Things like driving in Traffic and not driving at speed clogs diesel cars engine components up with Soot and they eventually fail (quickly).

It remains to be seen if things like E10 will have a similar effect. Ethanol is nasty stuff, and if it separates from the fuel mixture for any reason, it could potentially cause damage to an engine. Only a small amount of moisture is require to cause separation. Green policy on this is E10 is better for the environment than regular fuel and if something bad happens that's on you for owning a car.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961240#Comment_121961240

Have you looked at the state of public transport around the country? People have jobs to go to so need their cars.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961245#Comment_121961245

It's better than standing in the rain getting soaked for a bus that might never come.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961330#Comment_121961330

I'm not against climate policies ONCE we have the infrastructure in place first. All the Green Party are doing is taxing people to the hilt with all this taxes, and it's the less well off in society that will hurt and pay the price the most.

Scipri0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961870#Comment_121961870

It's true that all these carbon credits are pretty much worthless. You even had people high up in Shell that were instrumental in creating this Carbon Credit market. It's a fad.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/24/carbon-credit-speculators-could-lose-billions-as-offsets-deemed-worthless-aoe

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/18/revealed-forest-carbon-offsets-biggest-provider-worthless-verra-aoe

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966055#Comment_121966055

We'd have fewer cycle lanes too (arguably less congestion)

There's no such argument.

https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2021/12/cycle-lanes-dont-cause-congestion-but-theres-money-to-be-made-in-pretending-they-do

Who specifically do you reckon is massaging the figures?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966496#Comment_121966496

It will never come it's stuck in traffic that people want to bring back..

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966493#Comment_121966493

Congestion charging is being put forward as one option within city centres (not across the country). The vast majority of people driving into the city centres in private cars do not *need* to drive but *choose* to drive into a city centre.

However, nobody will be stopping someone from driving into a city centre, not even the Greens who, going by their critics here, have so much power. What you will find is that councils (not the Greens!) will put measures in place to heavily discourage unnecessary travel by private car into congested city centres. This will have the added benefit of making it easier for those that actually do *need* to drive into the cities.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966504#Comment_121966504

This is bullcrap and you know it. If you don't want to take public transport then just admit it but stop trying to tell us that the infrastructure is not improving and that the biggest obstacle to public transport getting better is in fact dipsh1ts sitting in their cars blocking bus lanes, etc.

In terms of you being taxed to the hilt with all these taxes, you do know that congestion charges aren't here yet, and will only be brought in by councils (not the government) once they have passed through rounds of public consultation. The only thing the government (not just the Greens) have done is enabled the option of congestion charging.

As for the less well off, blah blah blah - are you seriously telling us that the less well off are driving their cars into city centres, paying the high fuel prices as they sit in queues of traffic and then pay large hourly rates for parking? You know this is absolute crap because they're not so quit with the faux concern for others because it is transparent as hell!!!

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965916#Comment_121965916

So importing electric cars with all the environmental damage they are causing due to the production of batteries should be ignored, lets clean up our emissions lads, to hell with the destruction to the local environments caused buy all this mining and all the contaminated water supplies. Surely we don't think China is producing environmentally friendly batteries ffs ?

We should be caring what other countries are doing because why should the government tax us so high on energy knowing full well whatever impact we might have on so called climate change is minuscule compared to any country in Asia yet the Irish Government deem it absolutely essential to tax people off the road.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966493#Comment_121966493

Yes that's why I didn't move somewhere that didn't have any public transport. Didn't happen by accident.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965139#Comment_121965139

I never said it wasn't ? however, Dieselgate was caused by the meddling of the E.U and local governments in an area politicians are not experts in. The EPA were saying it for years the emissions from diesels is having a big impact on Ireland's air quality but politicians rarely do what's actually right but focus more on what other nations are doing and what's more popular, the Irish Government likes to go with the flow. If they didn't force diesel there wouldn't have been diesel gate, petrols were doing the job just fine.

The moment the Irish Government dramatically changed the tax system in 2008 is when most people switched to Diesel and the consequence of that is more and more older diesels are on the road with much less petrols available, and the current fleet of cars will get much older as fuel is taxed so high and the cost of new cars especially new electrics are very expensive.

People are stretched to the bone as it is without having to fork out for a new EV to save on fuel bills, many people are struggling to pay bills and mortgages and raise Children.

If they had invested in proper public transport, Rail, Underground we wouldn't need so many cars but now we got flooded with SUVs which are far too big for many car parking spaces and streets in Ireland and even more expensive. Just because it's electric with cheap as chips tax doesn't mean we should have them on the streets.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966663#Comment_121966663

I never said it wasn't ? however, Dieselgate was caused by the meddling of the E.U and local governments in an area politicians are not experts in. The EPA were saying it for years the emissions from diesels is having a big impact on Ireland's air quality but politicians rarely do what's actually right but focus more on what other nations are doing and what's more popular, the Irish Government likes to go with the flow. If they didn't force diesel there wouldn't have been diesel gate, petrols were doing the job just fine.

So based on this, you're saying that dieselgate is partly the Irish government's fault???

People are stretched to the bone as it is without having to fork out for a new EV to save on fuel bills, many people are struggling to pay bills and mortgages and raise Children.

I've no intention of changing my little used 5 series to an EV - why do you think people are being forced into them? Surely a better option is for us to reduce our dependency on the private car (which is what the Greens would encourage) so I'm lost why you think this is a bad direction? Would the savings in not having to make car repayments, pay insurance, motor tax, NCT, servicing and fuel not be better in the pockets of those people you say are stretched?

If they had invested in proper public transport, Rail, Underground we wouldn't need so many cars but now we got flooded with SUVs which are far too big for many car parking spaces and streets in Ireland and even more expensive. Just because it's electric with cheap as chips tax doesn't mean we should have them on the streets.

There were plenty of people asking for better public transport back during the Celtic Tiger years (and before) but in general the public appetite wasn't there and it wasn't a vote winning direction. In fact the opposite was generally true with the Luas was being the only positive that I can think of in almost forty years (after the Dart). We gave tax breaks to create car parks. We had countless front page photos of politicans cutting the ribbon on a new section of motorway or dual carriageway. Can you think of any politicians back then unveiling a new range of busses or train carriages?

As for SUVs, this is the direction that the car manufacturers want to go because they can charge more for one despite the consumer not getting anything more for their extra money. Plus the heavier design of SUVs means that we're losing out on much of the environmental benefits of newer technologies. However, Ireland i a small market and even if we were to ban SUVs, the manufacturers would be unlikely to bat an eyelid.

Lastly, don't for a minute think that the motor tax on EVs will stay low! As more and more people move from ICE to EV, the tax income will decrease and this needs to be made up somehow. EV owners won't be forgotten about by the taxman!

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966710#Comment_121966710

So based on this, you're saying that dieselgate is partly the Irish government's fault???

I never said dieselgate was the fault of the Irish Government but I did say that The Irish Government E.U governments in General is what led up to dieselgate due to the fact the so heavily promoted Diesel.

I've no intention of changing my little used 5 series to an EV - why do you think people are being forced into them? Surely a better option is for us to reduce our dependency on the private car (which is what the Greens would encourage) so I'm lost why you think this is a bad direction? Would the savings in not having to make car repayments, pay insurance, motor tax, NCT, servicing and fuel not be better in the pockets of those people you say are stretched?

People are being forced into EV because of talks about ICE bans and high fuel charges.

You used the word force not me ?

There were plenty of people asking for better public transport back during the Celtic Tiger years (and before) but in general the public appetite wasn't there and it wasn't a vote winning direction. In fact the opposite was generally true with the Luas was being the only positive that I can think of in almost forty years (after the Dart). We gave tax breaks to create car parks. We had countless front page photos of politicans cutting the ribbon on a new section of motorway or dual carriageway. Can you think of any politicians back then unveiling a new range of busses or train carriages?

In fairness, the motorways were essential, I remember the old road from Carlow to Dublin on the old N9, it was terrible.

The old N9 to Waterford was worse in places, the Motorways did make a big difference, made travelling a lot safer but unfortunately none of the actually link up so I would have to go to Naas and back down the M7 again for Limerick if I wanted Motorway.

As for SUVs, this is the direction that the car manufacturers want to go because they can charge more for one despite the consumer not getting anything more for their extra money. Plus the heavier design of SUVs means that we're losing out on much of the environmental benefits of newer technologies. However, Ireland i a small market and even if we were to ban SUVs, the manufacturers would be unlikely to bat an eyelid.

Yes I agree, they want to make more money and it's a way to squeeze in more batteries for EVs.

The Greens were on the radio maybe a month ago talking about a ban on making these cars in the first place through legislation in the E.U, obviously no car manufacturer cars about the Irish car market but they do care about the E.U market. Probably one of the few sensible things I heard them say. I'm not saying there should be an all out ban but they should be made to have many more smaller car options, hatches and even estates again, Saloons.

Lastly, don't for a minute think that the motor tax on EVs will stay low! As more and more people move from ICE to EV, the tax income will decrease and this needs to be made up somehow. EV owners won't be forgotten about by the taxman!

They have the sh1t taxed out of the motorist, yeah EV will eventually see higher tax but they are already seeing lower grants.

I very quickly read a report, don't quote me that EV sales are down was it 14 or 24 % this year and calling on the Government to throw more incentives at them and I don't think this is a good idea to continue to throw money at car manufacturers and investors when we have no car industry ourselves , it makes no sense either way.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966519#Comment_121966519

What's that got to do with nuclear power, which (as your article confirms), they're not actually again in principle?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966663#Comment_121966663

I will leave dieselgate because you don't seem to understand the history or what happened.

The tax system didn't force people to buy new cars in 2008 as already pointed out

The recommendation at the moment is to drive your car into the ground and then if you have to buy one then buy a environmentally friendly one or the most environmentally friendly you can afford.

Also most cars are not SUV's, they are Crossovers, the flood of Crossovers started a long time ago and combustion cars. This was because of the US market and the car companies dumping cars because they can't sell in the US and concentrating on Crossovers.

"cheap as chips tax" how much more is combustion cars compared to electrics in terms of road tax?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966055#Comment_121966055

The 2008 car tax change has been done to death and honeslty the majority of posters on here don't seem to have a clue about it. It was also 16 years ago. Maybe time to get over it at this stage?

Why would we roll bac measures to make Ireland cleaner and better for the population? that would be the most stupidest idea ever and not a single politician would ever do it

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967193#Comment_121967193

The gaslighting is strong here. I'm old enough to remember 2007/2008 when Minister Eamon Ryan cancelled two licenses for exploration for Uranium in Donegal. The stated reason was that: "The most likely end use of any uranium extracted in Ireland would be for nuclear electricity generation."

https://www.constructionireland.ie/construction-news/69227/minister-ryan-calls-halt-to-uranium-exploration-in-ireland

So the Green Party isn't against nuclear power "in principle" … and in other news, the sun shines brightest at midnight.

Ironically, the us of nuclear energy would not only reduce our CO2 emissions dramatically, like it did in France, but also clean up our air (as we wouldn't need to burn fossil fuels for electricity) and potentially lower our energy bills (compare the cost of electricity between France and Germany/Ireland for example).

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967682#Comment_121967682

Gaslighting indeed

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/ryan-declines-to-rule-out-nuclear-power-as-energy-alternative-1.4603737

Anaki r2d2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121967500#Comment_121967500

we need to not allow the Green party repeat mistakes of the past. 16 years is a very short time in a climate emergency. Their bad decisions have consequences that just can’t be blamed on VAG.

Their hard core fan-bots are entering denial of service with relentless posting.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968029#Comment_121968029

Same thing happened over all over Europe, and many car manufactures. Maybe you'll explain how the The Irish Green Party achieved that.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966521#Comment_121966521

I'm not so sure.

Cycle lanes by themselves are fine as car can enter them temporarily to get past a car turning right where there is no filter lane.

When the cycle lane has bollards this becomes a problem, if it's a busy road then it becomes a very big problem.

If there are two right turn junctions in close proximity to each other (but not an intersection) it becomes a huge problem as there is high chance of deadlock.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968457#Comment_121968457

It's a myth, built up by anti active travel groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2021/dec/13/how-a-myth-about-london-bike-lanes-and-congestion-took-flight

Can you point to any specific locations where the presence of a bike lane has caused congestion that wouldn't have been there previously?

Honestly, it's hilarious to see the extent to which drivers will find anyone other than other drivers as responsible for congestion or anything. If you want to ease congestion, persuade people not to travel with an empty couch and empty armchair on the large percentage of journeys that are easily walked or cycled. If you don't like bollards, persuade drivers to stop parking on the non-bollarded cycle lanes and footpaths.

Tenzor07

Isn't it amazing how these threads go way off topic to start ranting about mining uranium, hatred of minority groups and the Chinese burning coal! And not about tiny areas of a city where 99.99% of those ranting against it will never go anywhere near?

Just get on with it Eamon!

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968673#Comment_121968673

Not a right turn but and example of how bollard cycle lanes made it very difficult to get emergency services to a mass brawl.

Busy weekend, roads jammed and cars couldn't make room in the centre of the road for the Garda to get through because of the bollards around the cycle lanes.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2023/06/04/dublin-beach-evacuated-by-gardai-after-mass-brawl-of-teenagers/

I believe it took the the Garda a number of hours to get control of the situation citing and inability to get Garda to the beach fast enough.

That's a real world example, from only last year.

The Road in itself (R105) is constantly jammed. Right turn either across the railway bridge, into Offington Park or down church road hold everything up because the car behind have to wait.

Another example is the East Wall Road which has new added cycle lane that in parts has take enough of the road that some of the right turn filter lanes have been lost. Traffic is worse since the cycle lane went it. Also… Who the hell cycles to the port?
A traffic survey was done for that road by DCC which said there were 700 cyclists using that road on the day of the survey.
I know people that work on the East Wall Road and in the Port (well over 20 years) and there as never, and I mean NEVER been a time were 700 cyclists use that road daily. It is a complete fabrication by DCC. And it's ultimately wrong.

I'm fully with you however on people parking in them. And the end of the day we just need enforcement. If a car is parked somewhere where it's not supposed to be parked just lift it, and if they want it back it's €1,000. Mind you, you'd probably get people dumping old cars by parking them where they're not supposed to be parked.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968845#Comment_121968845

Busy weekend, roads jammed and cars couldn't make room in the centre of the road for the Garda to get through because of the bollards around the cycle lanes.

So emergency services couldn't get through because of roads jammed with cars, and of course the fault here lies with the cycle lanes

LOL

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968845#Comment_121968845

Am I seeing this right, you're linking to an article about a brawl that happened last June as a reason to get rid of some plastic bollards?

And you have friends who stood out for an entire day on a road to count cyclists?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968876#Comment_121968876

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121968881#Comment_121968881

They were able to get through before the bollards were there… So yeah, the bollards were the change, the inability of emergency vehicles to get through when it's busy is the consequence of that change.

I don't care about traffic, I don't use that road in a car, if I'm going to Howth I use the train. I do care about the ability of emergency vehicles to access an area.

The Garda themselves stated the problem was the bollards and they should be removed, but Green Religion says "no".

Re: The number of cyclists, anyone with even an ounce of cop on knows there isn't 700 people cycling on that road during rush hour. We're told to just believe it though. And "blessed are those who believe without seeing". And if you don't believe in God Green Policy then you're a heretic a climate change denier. (Which I'm not btw I do believe it's happening)

We need sensible policy about how we get people to use public transport and active travel, building cycle lanes everywhere is not sensible, particularly if they are rarely used.