Clean Air/Congestion Charging set to be introduced by 2030

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964061#Comment_121964061

Yet diesels are now stopped been manufactured by most companies, not because of any government but because of the lies the car companies told about them

If they never lied, diesels would still be available to buy new now.

The fault lies with the car companies, nobody else.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964375#Comment_121964375

The E.U is far from innocent, they always backed down on emissions to protect their own auto industries, mainly France and Germany, but the E.U are they're the ones who promoted it mandating that auto makers create lower Co2 emissions cars, Governments increased tax on petrol making diesel cheaper, our own government even did an entire VRT and Tax revamp in 2008 to highly favour Diesels.

The NEDC test was designed to favour car companies.

The NEDC became WLTP is designed to favour car companies. Why ? because it makes cars appear to be much more efficient than they actually are. The NEDC was far worse.

Why did Diesel gate happen ? due to failed legislation, it wasn't just VW fooling emissions tests. Legislators failed to see beyond Co2 and treated it like the deadliest gas known to Mankind.

So to say the blame lies with car companies and nobody else is completely false, they would have continued to make petrol cars that were far cleaner but due to legislation from the E.U they were required to make more efficient lower cars, this was only possible with Diesel so the car companies gave them what they demanded.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964981#Comment_121964981

Dieselgate was because of NOx and not because of CO2

The car manufacturers could reduce CO2 output because of diesel instead of petrol but had to adhere to NOx testing as well which they created the software to throw the results.

If they didn't invent the software and skew the results then the cars would have been marked down for NOx output. In the US they wouldn't have been sold at all because they wouldn't adhere to their requirements.

The blame lies with the car manufacturers.

Flinty997

We now have far cleaner cars then we ever had. That is down to regulations, and catching car companies cheating.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965144#Comment_121965144

Still plenty of old Diesel passenger cars on the road, I see many "teenaged" cars still driving around town.. Funny to see that some of the drivers of these older more polluting vehicles are probably about the same age as their car!

Older Diesels are banned from many city and town centres in Europe, yet they can still drive around anywhere in Ireland pumping out additional noxious fumes…

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962745#Comment_121962745

So you don't understand what "ability to protect yourself from effects of climate change" means then?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965244#Comment_121965244

Not sure any city has banned yet? a few talking about it but its a total ban

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964190#Comment_121964190

I'd agree with you that the Motor industry is in HUGE trouble at the moment.

Vehicles are A: to expensive, B: to complex, C: expensive to maintain and D: devalue rapidly (according to dealers). The build quality of modern cars is also very poor. Everything form the fixings to the paint to the engine is poor, and seems designed to fail as soon as the warranty is up.

I don't see how EV's are supposed to save the industry though? They perform worse in points A and D than ICE vehicles, and have a weird nuance on point C

There is complete over supply too.

Coupled with the cost of living and housing issues mean that a car particularly and EV is a huge investment and typically is not one people would be inclined to make unless they absolutely had to have a car.

I own a Leaf, but if I could get away with it, I wouldn't bother owning a car, they are the biggest waste of money going.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965261#Comment_121965261

Paris has I believe, and will be a full ban on any and all ICE cars from 2030, unless some right wing Mayor steps in to delay it..

Some French cities are banning older polluting vehicles, and having the Crit'air sticker is a idea we could adopt here: https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/Practical/Transport/A-guide-to-Crit-Air-stickers-in-France-How-do-you-get-one-and-what-pitfalls-should-you-watch-out-for

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962533#Comment_121962533

Just ignore the law. The EU cannot expel us, nor can it extract fines from a net contributor. We'd have many allies within the bloc in any case.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965387#Comment_121965387

I think it's a target not a Law (could be wrong)

Green Policies are like the new religion.

In the 1970/80's the catholic church was consulted on nearly every decision made in this country. It's happening again now with Green Policies. Every decision made needs to be rubber stamped by someone of a green disposition. The reality is that so long as super powers and big countries continue to follow non-green policies it doesn't matter one bit what we do, we account of 0.116% of all GHG emissions, that is TINY!

So again, why are we we going through all the inconvenience and expense when 100% does not work?

Get China, USA, India to do it first and the rest will follow suit.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965737#Comment_121965737

Is congestion and local air quality in China and India a daily problem for you?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965272#Comment_121965272

were cars ever all that reliable? they may have been simpler to fix many years ago, that's obvious, but reliability and simplicity are not necessarily a linear relationship.

but you can see the way the car industry behaves; SUVs (or crossovers, or whatever) are being pushed heavily by the car industry, even though they're less efficient, simply because they're easier to charge higher prices for.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965737#Comment_121965737

how will china and india solve our river pollution problems, litter problems, lack of forestry and biodiversity problems?

the reason we're trying to put a green stamp on things is because we've gone haywire for decades and trashed the place, it needs to be curtailed regardless of what's going on abroad.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965737#Comment_121965737

Why would we care what other countries are doing?

Fix up our own mess first and then we can point at others

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965785#Comment_121965785

Before CAD (1990's) Cars were built to last. Say for example if you had a hinge on a door. A manufacturer would make that hinge as strong as they could within reason.

Now, they estimate how many times that Hinge will be used per year (Say 1,000 for example) and then using CAD and material science make a hinge will last the length of the warranty. So if it was a 5 year warranty, they'll make the hinge good enough to last at least 5,000 uses (Open and close).

Cars having serious issues 6 months outside of manufacturer warranty is becoming more and more prevalent these days.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965841#Comment_121965841

River Pollution - Mostly Farmers
Litter - Was NEVER a problem before bin charges were introduced
Lack of forestry and biodiversity - Farmers again (Although this is changing)

They gas thing (No pun intended) is that most of the crops grown here end up in animal feed.

Large portions of farm land are set to become Timber Forests in the next 30 or so years, cause quite frankly… no one wants to farm anymore. Only people that like farming.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965244#Comment_121965244

Again, down to poor decisions by the Government to heavily promote these cars when the traditional 1.4 Petrol did the job just fine for most people, in 2008 Tax was greatly reduced on the diesel making the 2.0L TDI a lot cheaper to own and run vs the petrol because the system went from the engine CC to the Co2 output which was greatly understated due to the farce that was the NEDC test. This also meat driving far more powerful cars than your average 1.4 petrol, and since then cars have got a lot heavier, larger and a lot more powerful especially electric, you just barely tap the throttle now and the car wants to race down the road compared to say 20 seconds 0-60 Mph back in the 80s 90s.

Now we have a situation where the cheap 1.0 - 1.2 L petrol is disappearing fast, it was cheap ideal transport for many who were only interested in A -B transport and hadn't got big budgets. Now the hybrid costs thousands more for much the same efficiency, that's the mad thing, the only real difference is that the hybrid is usually larger, automatic and more powerful, though a 1.0L turbo is just a s good but a lot cheaper or the basic non turbo.

Anyway, as a result of the Government interference in the tax system which over night really harmed the resale value of many petrols this led to many of the petrol cars disappeared so now you have mostly old diesels that the young drivers can afford.

The Governments/E.U don't come out of all this squeaky clean in all this, they don't often make decisions that are actually the right thing to do or that makes sense and they're often not qualified to make the decisions in the first place, but they have to be seen to be doing something. Did they consult with the medical profession before greatly promoting diesel as a green alternative to petrol ? turned out the petrol was greener after all , couldn't make it up but this is politics, no they were blinded by Co2 then and still today and I wonder how many other poor decisions they will make that will be criticising in the future ?

We're now going to be left with older and older cars on the road as the cost of new cars is gone very expensive as manufacturers stop making small efficient petrol cars for big SUV hybrids and electrics that are not really suited to our narrow roads and car parks least of all suitable 1 person transport. Will they ban these cars forcing people off the road altogether that haven't the money for greatly overpriced alternatives ?

Even if the government did the sensible thing and reduce the tax on petrol by 40c a litre to encourage people out of diesels there wouldn't be enough petrols available.

The Irony is that many newer Diesels are quite clean now especially the ones with add blue making them cleaner than older petrols lol.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965737#Comment_121965737

China is moving to/using an A.I based traffic management system to avoid congestion, and aiming to have more autonomous vehicles by 2035, which will most likely all be electric vehicles…

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965916#Comment_121965916

Ok but their mess is

250 times bigger than ours (China)
96 times bigger than ours (USA)
64 times bigger than ours (India)

And that's just GHG's, they fare even worse when it comes specifically to CO2 and worse again for other pollutants

I'm not suggesting for one second that we don't have a problem, but are we overly hyper focused on this problem??? I think yes. We've gone off to the deep end on it.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965947#Comment_121965947

We are focused on Ireland because we live in Ireland.

If you lived in those other countries then you could focus on them

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965949#Comment_121965949

Ok Cool

So if we rolled back every green heavy measure we have introduced in the last 20 years, how would that affect us?

I'd argue there would be no litter (Bin charges gone)

More CO2 but less "Everything else" from cars a result of the VRT changes in introduced by John Gormley which insanely favored Diesel cars… Like the Greens effectively pushed that Diesel cars were more environmentally friendly Petrol Cars… MAD STUFF

We'd have more energy independence (Corrib)

Probably less wind turbines but not much less as very few have been built.

We'd have fewer cycle lanes too (arguably less congestion)

I think its just churn, like they've (Green policies) fixed some things but broke others.

For example policy on making it difficult to drive into Dublin city has had good effect, in that the city centre has very few cars. The canal cordon report verifies that the number of cars coming into Dublin City has been dropping over the last 14 years

You can view that report here:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/NTA-Canal-Cordon-Report-2022-Final.pdf

The 2023 report will be out in May, and I look forward to reading it. I do however think the cyclist figures are massaged. 1 cyclist for every 4 cars? I'd say it's near 1 for every 10 cars.

The kicker here is that traffic in the suburbs is getting worse and worse, the problem has just been moved somewhere else rather than being solved.

The Green policies that we've implemented don't seem to have fixed anything only moved the problem somewhere else.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965272#Comment_121965272

Because the end goal should be to move away from car use towards more PT, trams, light rail and buses. Its more efficient use of road space and lower carbon emissions for those that care about that metric.

This would have totally destroyed the car industry, but now they can push the EV instead and buy some Chinese made DC motors, and sell it at a premium. The environment is saved, so long as you keep buying EV crossovers to do the school run and drive 5k to the office.

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965919#Comment_121965919

well you were giving out about green policies being everywhere like it's a bad thing, then you're blaming farmers for river pollution and deforestation, when the only thing trying to change their practices are green policies, no?

ireland had a litter problem long before bin charges anyway, illegal dumping was always a thing

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966078#Comment_121966078

Not according to any county councilor I've talked to (and I've talked to a lot), bin charges were one of the worst things ever introduced.

But the policies have no affect or a bad side affect

We try to curtail beef CO2 and it just moves to Dairy or Pigs.

The only reason farmers are moving toward forestry is that the global price of timber has gone up a lot AND young people in Ireland don't want to be farmers. Once you plant trees in a field, that's it. It can never be used again for crops or cattle, without pulling up the roots. That's the biggest indicator that no one could be arsed with that field, and the only way it can make money is by planting trees and waiting 20/30 years.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965387#Comment_121965387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965737#Comment_121965737

My understanding is that it is part of the EU's European Climate Law which are legally binding targets which (AFAIK) also have fines if not met.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121965919#Comment_121965919

River Pollution - Mostly Farmers
Litter - Was NEVER a problem before bin charges were introduced
Lack of forestry and biodiversity - Farmers again (Although this is changing)

erm, litter has improved dramatically over the years and while litter pollution still occurs, it is nothing compared to years ago.

In terms of the other two, water pollution from wastewater is still a major contributor and this mainly comes from agriultural, industrial & domestic. In terms of forestry, the problem here is not farmers but our state agency traditionally promoting (via grants, etc.) non-native monocultures rather than native woodlands.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966126#Comment_121966126

Not according to any county councilor I've talked to (and I've talked to a lot), bin charges were one of the worst things ever introduced.

then they're either lying to you or simply haven't a clue. Litter in their area may be bad but when you look at the bigger picture, it was much worse in the past when there were less refuse collection services across the country. It was common to drive past ditches with all forms of furniture in them along with plastic bags both empty and full of rubbish.

It is strange that any councillor that you talk to is opposed to bin charges. Do you talk to councillors from specific parties or what?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966055#Comment_121966055

The reason you think it's massaged is because your perception is skewed by how much space cars take up.

https://thesource.metro.net/2011/10/11/space-required-to-transport-60-people/

Dublin city is the same size. But the suburbs and their population are much bigger.

There are a finite number of cars that will fit in the city. The roads are finite. The road space used to be 100% for cars. Who were not 100% of road users. All thats happened is some of that 100% is now being more evenly distributed to other road users.

Flinty997

My most reliable cars were around the 1990s. Noticeably a drop in part quality after that, and while they last long its take more parts and repairs than it used to.

"…The study sampled the opinions of 84,165 car buyers (including lessors) between February and May of 2022 to get a sense of how they were finding their new ride. J.D. Power determined that problems rose to a record high for the period, up 11 percent from 2021. That boiled down to an average of 180 problems per every 100 vehicles sampled within the first 90 days of ownership and is the most the outlet has encountered within 36 years…."

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966160#Comment_121966160

We've be at "them" for years now about dumping near a train station where I live. There are many bags of household waste being left there every week. Apparently there is nothing they can do. Also the place is not maintained and looks like crap cause weed killer isn't allowed anymore, anyway off topic.

A different one comes along promising all sorts every few months once there's a reshuffle.

Anyway @Clo-Clo is telling me to look inner and not mind the bigger picture, you're telling me to look at the bigger picture and not concentrate to much on what's happening in my immediate area…. that's Green Policy 101 man! It is basically the new religion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966168#Comment_121966168

I don't think it is, I know how to count like.

To be clear I'm neither pro car or pro cycle. I'm pro getting to where I need to go in the fastest way possible (Usually by rail)

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121966189#Comment_121966189

i wonder if there's any way of tracking reliability against complexity - if a new car today has double (pulled that figure out of the air) the number of components of a car made in the 70s, that's potentially double the number of components that can go wrong. so in one sense, it'd certainly make the car less reliable, but down to the number, rather than quality, of the parts.