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Did it ever make sense to move from an old combustion car to a new EV

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭boredatwork82


    i think every case is different.


    in my case i have a large commute. i get free charging in work. my repayment on the car every month is less than my fuel bill was on my last car (2tdi skoda, no repayments owned car outright). not by a huge amount though.

    also far less maintenance costs on the EV.

    but my EV is more comfortable, nicer to drive, quieter.

    so it made sense to change. but i dont think EV's make sense for everyone. if the taxman or work start charging for parking at work i will be straight back to a diesel.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Miscreant


    If you want a new car, just go ahead and buy one, whether it is an EV or not. All of the calculations done in people's heads to justify it are mostly meaningless as there is always something you will miss along the way such as servicing, wear and tear, repairs out of warranty and so on.

    Unless you are getting a new EV for free, it does not make much financial sense to switch from an ICE vehicle to "save money". Cars are depreciating assets and we are now seeing a correction of second hand values (and GFMV calculations) in the market after the craziness of post COVID prices and shortages of vehicles. When changing my car last time I actually "made" €2k on the price I had originally paid for my car against a trade in for an EV. Looking at it now, however, the price I paid for my EV has dropped by at least as much if not more so I have now effectively "lost" money. I did not change my car out of necessity but because I wanted a full EV. That was a choice. In the grand scheme of things, I would have been financially better off to the tune of about €10k by not changing.

    The running costs for my EV, in terms of fuel, are practically zero (I can charge in work for free) but they were roughly the same with my previous car (a PHEV that I could also charge in work for free). Truth be told, and this will be controversial; I sometimes wish I had not changed from the PHEV as it was the best of both worlds for me. I don't like having to use public fast charging when I travel to the West of Ireland for family visits as it is usually either busy or busted and at least with the PHEV, I could just fill up with petrol and go (I usually make the return trip on the same day so destination charging is useless with a granny cable once I arrive). I will think very long and hard before replacing my current EV with another one and may even go back to a PHEV when the time comes.

    I certainly will be under no illusions that I am saving money by buying one car over another. Everything has pros and cons and everyone's circumstances will be different... or, as has been said in countless vehicle ads in the last few years: YMMV! 🙂



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭gammon199


    Like this nugget?

    EV cost savings - Page 4 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    Though I must say you were one of the sane posters, so fair play. Look at Kcross and Unkel on page 4 both laughably wrong, the reply to your depreciation question lol

    ELM327

    " the fact that the car is depreciating and I got a fright at the notion of trying to sell a 3yo Ioniq in 2 years with 120k on the clock "

    KCross

    "Shouldnt be a problem. As time moves on the used market for EV's is only going to get stronger, not weaker."

    Unkel

    "No need to worry there at all. Have you not noticed that a 7 year old Leaf is worth more now than it was 2 years ago when it was just 5 years old? EVs will keep their value well for years to come"

    😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well, we'll see - but it would be naïve to think that government policy won't use whatever stick it can in order to persuade the public in the new direction. They'll incentivise EVs whilst increasing cost of ownership/ running of petrol/ diesel. Of course, it'll be a balancing act too as they need to be mindful of how to recover motoring taxes from EVs.

    The real green deal of course should be to persuade the public to give up their cars, whether EV or ICE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    5 year old necroposting. Niice. You're some mad lad anyway that's for sure.

    Anyway, yeah I was more concerned about the depreciation and stuff then, as that €526 loan payment was a large part of my disposable income at the time and we were saving for a mortgage deposit. That was 2018 and my income has doubled since then, we've moved house and had 6 further EVs, of which 1 was a second Ioniq (!) and we still have 3 of the subsequently purchased EVs. Turned out I didnt lose money on the Ioniq in the end as I sold it for almost what I paid for it and it's in the hands of another boardsie as far as I know. As is my other Ioniq!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 804 ✭✭✭techman1


    Diesels will be available to buy new till 2030, a diesel will be still running long past that

    They will actually still be available to buy new until 2035, the EU over ruled the Irish government saying they were nor allowed to jump the gun. Even 2035 is open to question due to the German car industry using their political power in Germany to push this out further due to not being ready by 2035



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    If the government is using a stick to get people to buy EV's then why would they want to get them to give up those cars? and the taxes?

    Didn't they cut taxes on combustion fuel for the last while?

    Not sure you have thought out this entirely have you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    In terms of electric cars, does it make sense? I bought during the last crash in electric cars. Kept for years and then sold on during the boom.

    Took a company car out then on 0% BIK and drive that for years, once it didn't make sense I bought it out and still have it today. It will be driven till the wheels fall off it, over 150k km so far.

    I looked at a new Electric car and when I seen people paying over 40k for a Renault I knew it was totally ridiculous and left them at the show room.

    Anyone who paid crazy money on an EV in the last few years must have been aware the depreciation was going to be huge on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭gammon199


    Your a car enthusiast or a wheeler dealer? That's a lot of changing

    Yeah the EV market for a short time was like Bangernomics are now, value going up or holding very well, only difference was instead of playing market roulette with a 1k banger it was a 41k EV.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭gammon199


    Good point

    When a car like a little Peugeot 208 came in EV form for 36k new alarm bells should have been ringing, only a few years back that car in a 1.2l petrol was 18k new

    Anyone with a French EV are gonna get roasted depreciation wise



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    The Kona, for a petrol version it was 20k? I think. The inside is poor. The electric version was close to 40k, same interior. Now my parents picked up a nice one for 25k I think with minimal mileage on it but they got a brand new battery put into it so it made sense.

    Anyone with any EV got roasted. How muhc was a diesel Tiguan compared to the ID.4?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,676 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Yeah. My father never bought a new car in his life. He drove plenty of cars with the current year number on the registration plate. (He had contacts in the car industry so he would buy the cars that others registered and didn't like so they traded them soon after)

    He was driving top spec practically new cars that someone else took the biggest depreciation hit on.

    I was always amazed that there were people out there who just changed their mind on a brand new car after a few weeks and were happy to take the hit, but it seems there were always a few



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭gammon199


    Yeah those Kona EV have depreciated like a rock, think I saw one posted for 16k on donedeal few weeks ago, were bones of 40k new, fine car for that price

    Petrol is holding well, lowest price is 14k for 2019 ( 21k new )

    2019 HYUNDAI KONA.. MANUAL.. WARRANTY INCLUDED.. for sale in Co. Dublin for €14,700 on DoneDeal

    EV Kona lowest price 19k ( 40k new )

    Hyundai kona electric 64kw high spec for sale in Co. Dublin for €18,950 on DoneDeal



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    "I was always amazed that there were people out there who just changed their mind on a brand new car after a few weeks and were happy to take the hit, but it seems there were always a few"

    Ireland is a very very very rich country. Something like €150bn in savings accounts of all sorts at the moment and rising. 300,000+ or so working in FDI, all well paid with serious pensions etc. Im not begrudging at all .. just saying when you do have lots of coin and are secure with same taking hits like that are a thing of nothing.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Totally incorrect.

    I got 40,034 km and 3.5 years from my tyres.

    What car have you got and what size tyres are you replacing?

    What size wheels have you got on the EV relative to the ICE you had?

    Then, the age old advice, did you shop around for tyres or buy from a main dealer?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Just an enthusiast, not a dealer at all. Dealers make money 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭munsterfan2


    We recently moved from a 20 year old Avensis ( 2l petrol ) as it was starting to give trouble / expensive to run. It said we were getting 7l/100k - moved to 4 yo Kona EV, so approx 16kw/100k. Doing approx 1000km / week and managing to charge primarily at energia 7.5c. 1000km = 49l = ~€80 per week vs 160kw = ~€12. With petrol savings & tax savings thats approx 4000 per annum. Kona cost 20k, got €750 for the avensis so should have paid off the purchase cost in approx 4 years. Will then have an 8 y.o kona which will hopefully keep going for another 10 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Ah but I wrote "The real green deal of course should be to persuade the public to give up their cars, whether EV or ICE."

    Government and Greens are not quite the same thing are they. Presumably EV owners are partly persuaded by 'low emissions' motoring? If they are really concerned, they should give up personal transport vehicles altogether.

    As for fuel taxes, they are putting them back on as quickly as they can.



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭gammon199


    You did very well, you left someone else take the 20k depreciation and you got a brand new battery too in that Kona

    Used EV's like that with a decent warranty are a good buy.

    Kona EV is rapid too, test drove one once too and it moves for a small car



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    It’s the same 204bhp motor that’s in the Niro and the ID4, ID3 etc

    It feels quick if you’re not used to EV’s. The Leaf used to feel quick with its instant torque!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    An ev compared to a rattling stinking diesel junker, will be a massive upgrade in terms of drive. But yeah, I'd question any "savings" what is the motor tax rate on EV? E120?

    in relation to the above avensis to kona change, if you paid interest on a loan, that has to be taken into account too...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    I did not say I have an EV. I have nothing against EVs.

    Your "Totally Incorrect" statement is i assume your own conclusion from your own EV experience vs a general all around statement of fact?

    Re tyres - just from reading ( eg recent article on this in Irish times - paywall ) .. discussing pretty much this:

    ( The findings are based on data from e-commerce specialist epyx )

    I have found .. especially from people who it is there first foray into EVs - that EV tyres are different from and more expensive than ICE tyres for these reasons:

    "The cost of replacing EV tyres more frequently is exacerbated by the higher price of EV tyres due to reinforced sidewalls to deal with the extra weight of batteries, as well as special compounds for quieter driving and lower rolling resistance. Some EV tyres may even have reduced tread depths, which would also impact on the frequency of their replacement cycle."

    Not advisable to use regular ICE tyres on an EV



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    my EV weighs a lot, the wheels are 21" (as was my old ICE car), i am on track to get around 2 years out of them or circa 30,000 km. I dont see a difference but i am comparing like with like on size at least.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Basilio


    Cheapest non BEV Automatic Kona is 20K+ same like EV kona with similar mileage. I would compare Automatic non BEV vehicles to EVs as manual ICE cars are in different market segment.

    January 2019 Kona for €15900 was a High mileage example. You would need to see vehicle and drive to compare. 2019 Kona with 157,000km would not be valued same money as one with 30,000km. So €20K+ would be a fair price point for 64kWh battery 2019 Kona with working AC, and replaced battery under recall.

    Post edited by Basilio on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    @Cyrus Two interesting snippets from that article:

    "According to epyx, which is owned by FLEETCOR, the first tyre change for electric cars is taking place at an average of 28,776km and 551 days old, compared to 38,936km and 670 days for petrol and diesel cars. "

    "Epyx data released in March in the UK showed the average replacement tyre fitted to an EV measured 47.2cm (18.59 inches) and cost €240 (£207) while the corresponding figures for petrol and diesel cars were 44.2cm (17.40 inches) and €150 (£130)."



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Basilio


    All depends on a driving stile. Had original set of tires for 60,000km on a 2017 Ioniq 28kWh.

    Now driving Kona with 32k km, looks like tires will be road legal after 50K. Somebody driving in Sport Mode, utilizing full power, will kill them in no time. Same with ICE cars.

    Post edited by Basilio on


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    My experience from owning the guts of 9 EV’s yes. I’ve had 16” wheels, 17” wheels, 19” wheels, 20” wheels and 21” wheels throughout that time so my experience is that area.

    And basing it on posts from other users on here. So real world and not some article that may be half truths.

    EV tyres are the same or similar prices as others when you make an effort and shop around, use tyreleader, black circles etc

    Who advised you that it you shouldn’t use regular tyres on an EV? Any tyre with the correct load rating and weight rating can be used on any car. The only difference that some specific ev tyres have is the foam insert that “reduces” road noise. In the real world it doesn’t, maybe in the lab!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 125 ✭✭Core6


    The focus of this discussion seems to be entirely on the cost.

    Nothing wrong with that but there is a big element on the purchase of an EV that is influenced by the environmental impact -- at least there was on my decision and I am sure it is for others too.

    Also, the running cost of an EV is dramatically cheaper than a diesel or, in particular, a petrol car.

    I am getting 350-450kms on my EV for under €7. Some are getting it for free if they have PV solar.

    €7 is less than the cost of 1 gallon of petrol or diesel which might get a petrol car 40miles/65km or a diesel 50miles/80km.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    For example here, but many articles on this:

    ... You might be tempted to just buy a set of normal car tyres and be done with it.

    However, doing that could be a bad move for your car, the new tyres, and your overall electric car running costs. For starters, buying a set of tyres designed for a conventional petrol or diesel car might not allow you to maximise the benefits and capabilities of your electric car; aspects such as handling, acceleration, refinement and comfort could all be affected – and some tyres may not last long in powerful electric car applications.

    If you want to maximise the potential of an electric vehicle – EV – it’s a good idea to fit tyres that are designed specifically for that application, or at least approved for it. Electric cars are heavier than their petrol or diesel counterparts, which puts extra strain on the tyres.

    As you’ve probably noticed, electric motors also produce a lot of torque, which further increases the demands made on tyres. Consequently, if you buy a regular tyre for your electric car, you may find that it wears more quickly than you expected and doesn’t provide the traction you need.

    The FLEET article in my other Post above says this:

    "The cost of replacing EV tyres more frequently is exacerbated by the higher price of EV tyres due to reinforced sidewalls to deal with the extra weight of batteries, as well as special compounds for quieter driving and lower rolling resistance. Some EV tyres may even have reduced tread depths, which would also impact on the frequency of their replacement cycle."

    OK .. you disagree, fair enough. Their is a difference tween regular ICE tyres and EV tyres, latter can be more expensive.

    These are not obscure publications as you imply and dismiss ( via "not some article that may be half truths." ) .. but again fair enough, thats your opinion from your own experience.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    It doesn't make sense to move from a debt free ICE to any car where you would need a loan to buy that car.

    I don’t think anyone can realistically argue with the above statement.

    Post edited by liamog on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It depends, buy the proper tires and they will wear similar to a combustion car and I have both.

    I did try a recommended "cheaper" tyre once and even the garage was amazed at how quick it wore down. I normally wouldn't put them on but was in rush and all they had in stock. Never again.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    And that's been the resounding advice as far as i can see.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 125 ✭✭Core6


    I might easily make sense if the debt free car is giving grief.

    All cars finally get beyond their economic repair value where the cost of repair exceeds the replacement cost or market value.

    Then the owner must decide whether to continue to pump in good money after bad or replace the car.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I did it and saved money. Going from bangernomics diesels to an EV. I was doing 50-60k a year though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭Basilio


    For me main concern would be A rated on wet, A rated on sound and at least B rated on fuel consumption.

    Was it designed for EV or not is all about Marketing. All potential fuel saving could be totally offset by driving underinflated "EV tires" as compare to well balanced and properly inflated Mid Range non EV design .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭traco


    I did these maths multiple times over the last few years for Mrs Tracos bus and it was hard to justity savings. She had a 2007 Mercedes ML320Cdi so €1,500 tax per year and last few years a fill was an average of €150 which hurt. I am farily handy so did most of the looking after it myself. Working the numbers it would be several years before we would be net positive by switching.

    However in mid September it threw a fault. I scanned and loads of canbus errors. Water in rear wheelarches so suspected a rear SAM at miniumum which wouls cost GBP£800+ with my contacts and alos me coding it and getting it working. No gaurantee it would end there and tax was also due in Oct. Based on that I reckoned we would be at least 3k down and potentially have more issues plus she is on the M50 for work and had sort of lost confidence in it. Probably average 20k kms per year.

    Anyway some rapid fire tets drives and comparisions and then with the Tesla end od Q3 push it was decided that the best value option was a Model Y out the door for 45.7k which I think was a very good deal for what we got. Hopefully there won't be more huge discounts but I'm not that bothered as we tend to keep cars for teh long haul as tools and I have fun cars for entertainment.

    So even with out exterem use case I would honestly think we aren't saving a whole lot and she has free charging at work. I'd say its about a wash but there is big step up in terms of the user experience and tech for a 16 year old Merc but she still misses it.

    My own daily, currently not being used is a 2010 Skoda Tdi with just shy of 400k kms and the plan is to keep it untill it throws in the towel at which point I may jump to a used EV but who knows as work needs (currently not an option for me) when do require long distance runs.

    If you have to change and look at like for like pricing either new or used then an EV will save you something every year but its not free money and you won't retire off it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    In terms of reducing emissions CO2 etc. many diesels can run unaltered on HVO. A 90% reduction is quoted pity its nor more widely available and on a par price wise. Pity it's nor promoted by the Government like the EVs..



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    We're long past CO2 being the primary focus of emissions reduction, it's as much about the local particulate emissions these days. This is why we're seeing much tighter regulations on exhaust particulate matter NOx and coming regulations on the tyre particulates. HVO as a solution is very much solving the same problem that the now ridiculed 2008 diesel tax incentives sought to solve.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,272 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Tyres are tyres.

    Currently running Goodyear all season vector gen 3 I think. Handle fantastic in the snow.

    Coming up on getting a change at 80k km. (Rotated at appropriate times )

    All tyres have weight ratings so as long as you stay in spec for your car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭Woodie40


    Re: PHEV, my partner is exactly the same as you, she is trading in her EV for a PHEV next month.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    I'm not sure what point you think you've proven. You selected a thread where most posters who know about and own EVs are giving sound advice about the expected cost of buying an EV, pointing out where savings are to be made, not that the EV will necessarily be cheaper than keeping the 13 year old Diesel which the OP wanted to shift.

    Instead of using the OP, you made up your own question and then inserted a comment made by another poster which was in response to the OP...not your made up and irrelevant question. In the case of the OP of that thread, it is likely a new EV would be kept for 10+ years and would therefore be cheaper to own and run over that period of time than keeping an old diesel. No sane person is telling people to ditch their ICE and buy an EV. Only when the ICE is being moved on and a new, or used car is on the cards AND only if the EV is suitable, the EV will be suggested.

    You keep pointing out depreciation over 2 years. This is the same for any car and it only matter if the owner sells the car after such a short period of time. Most sensible folk will keep their cars for 5 or 10 years before changing, so it doesn't apply to them.

    No, it won't.😂

    You've been too close to the fairy dust this month. 2010 Passat doesn't even reach 30MPG on average.



    Long time lurker, first time poster. Kan u believe him? 🤣

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,365 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    I Kan 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭joe1303l


    How long is a 2010 Passat going to keep going though ?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    If the monthly cost to service the loan, plus the running costs of the other (presumably newer) car are less than the cost of running the "debt free" car, then it does make sense to move from one car to the other. This is especially true if you have an expensive service on the way.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,961 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Yeah but in the scenario where you are in a perfectly working debt free ICE, it makes no financial sense to purchase a newer car by taking on debt for cheaper running costs.

    The cost to service the debt has to be factored in.

    Anyway I think that’s been pointed out on this thread previously so I won’t upset anyone by going on about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,462 ✭✭✭allinthehead


    My Audi A4 diesel estate and 5 series petrol needed reinforced tyres, same as my Tesla M3. Nothing special about them, the media and marketing are really doing a job on people.

    ☀️



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭beggars_bush




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,948 ✭✭✭kanuseeme


    LoL imitation is the highest form of flattery, ascribing someone else's posts as mine is strange, I am the defender of phevs and hybrids, I am not against EVs, just some of the fantasy stuff, I feel sorry for who purchased recently, I actually received abuse when I mentioned about depreciation on EVs 2 months ago in the bargain thread, in response to another well known who claimed the opposite.

    I don't think EV sales in the last couple of years were going to be long term keepers as mostly early adopters want to move on to the next car with different chemistry or some other faff, it might be the case now with the new price drops, that or realise the loss,

    going forward how are sales going to be, any purchase I make I do put a lot of thought into resale, 25 years ago I expected to loose 2000 pounds a year, now I buy 2nd hand and sell for profit/no loss or minimal loss, I am sure others are like me who can accept some loss, but not whats happening now.

    You used US units and any engine , its a little better when you go imperial and select diesel.

    Based on data from 21 vehicles, 638 fuel-ups and 374,601 miles of driving, the 2010 Volkswagen Passat gets a combined Avg UK MPG of 44.03 with a 0.71 UK MPG margin of error.

    Entirely possible to get 50 mpg.

    I lurked a long time also, only started to post when I got my outlander PHEV.




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