Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Wokeism of the day *Revised Mod Note in OP and threadbanned users*

1213214216218219241

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,931 ✭✭✭✭Rothko


    Some people seem really desperate to defend it. It's not the first time it's happened and, to be honest, I'd become suspicious of anyone that pretends not to see the sexual aspect to it.





  • Can we knock off the childish fighting



  • Registered Users Posts: 873 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Hey lets play a fun game. To all the women who say there is nothing wrong with bringing your baby to a male poledancing show during the day with their gal pals. How about we reverse the genders on that. Men doing daddy day care at the stripclub with the dad lads while their wives are at work providing for their family!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    That’s not a valid comparison when you consider that there are more examples of “adult” behaviour in many (not all) stripclubs such as prostitution, scenes of simulated sex, drug taking, alcohol abuse, donkey shows, outbreaks of violence, and so on.

    A stripclub is a very distinct entity from the kind of dancing-in-a-community-hall-like performances we are talking about.

    Edit: I just saw Michael Wide Tongs’s mod warning and I’ll leave it at that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s true that it’s not a valid comparison, it’s not any kind of a comparison really as it’s simply not possible to just ‘reverse the genders’ but, having said that - there doesn’t need to be a comparison. The idea of bringing children to any form of a burlesque show, even a piss-poor quality Dealz standard effort (and nowhere near the level of CDS ffs 😂) like the one being discussed here, is just dumb. There’s places and activities which are appropriate for adults, which aren’t appropriate for children, or babies, no matter whether they’re fully aware of what’s going on around them or not. The point is the adults are, and would be expected to know better.

    And believe me I get that expectations rarely align with reality, but you don’t have to purposely try and do dumb shìt and then try and pass it off afterwards as fun entertainment for all the family when how dumb it is is pointed out. I’d say the same of anyone who thought it was a good idea to bring children to places advertised as being for adults, like bookies, pubs, etc, they don’t have to be cavorting practically naked in rubber suits, thongs and high heels to be inappropriate for children, that’s just the extreme that nobody had previously thought of, and for good reason.





  • you can discuss the topic if you want I am simply asking everyone to remain civil as there was a page or two of rather childish bickering, accusations of gaslighting etc which were far removed from the topic at hand

    I’m not stopping you discussing it though not by any stretch. It’s a very interesting discussion to have imo let’s all just try and keep cool while we do so.

    As for the strip club comparison made (and that sly dig about “working to provide) there’s so much wrong there I don’t even know where to start.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    There’s places and activities which are appropriate for adults, which aren’t appropriate for children, or babies, no matter whether they’re fully aware of what’s going on around them or not. The point is the adults are, and would be expected to know better.

    Here’s the thing: me and at least one other poster have explained exactly it is not inappropriate (babies aren’t aware of eroticism so they don’t register it as sexual, and without that that context it is not erotic), and not a single person with the opposing view has provided their reasons why except for extremely vague assertions that “everyone knows” it’s “off.”

    Quite unlike the so-called woke posters who are using genuine rhetorical devices like allegory, facts, and coming to logical conclusions based on evidence to explain exactly why dancing in a leather g string in close proximity to babies isn’t actually harmful if you think about it, the “non-wokies” are appealing to base emotional concerns, accusing their opponents of trolling, and crying about their points being twisted.

    It’s genuinely so manipulative. Speaking for myself, all I ever ask for in a debate such as this is the person I am talking to to explain their ideas, actually explain it, without resorting to personal insults and accuse me of bullying them for challenging their views. Allow me to ask one more time and I would love for someone to answer it properly:

    Why is it inappropriate for an infant to see someone dancing in a thong and knee high boots when the infant is not aware of any erotic contexts, and the dancer is not more undressed than a sunbather on the beach or someone going for a run shirtless in the summer?

    Is it possible for someone to actually explain why without resorting to vague gut-feeling palaver about “you just know it’s not right” or “it makes me uncomfortable,” or some other nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭eggy81


    But the babies don’t know what any of that is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Yes but babies (at least their parents) are at risk of being physically abused and attacked by people who are abusing alcohol, taking drugs, and so on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    That’s not a valid comparison when you consider that there are more examples of “adult” behaviour in many (not all) stripclubs such as prostitution, scenes of simulated sex, drug taking, alcohol abuse, donkey shows, outbreaks of violence, and so on.

    But if "It doesn't register" with the babies and toddlers why is it an issue? If it’s not an issue in one setting it surely wouldn't be in another, in your opinion, of course?

    I don't frequent strip clubs but I'd imagine there's plenty of security for the safety of the strippers and to prevent, or quickly stop, outbreaks of violence.

    The simulated sex, alcohol and drug use wouldn't register with the babies and toddlers, so why do you think that's unsuitable?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    An sudden outbreak of violence, even if it extinguished almost immediately can cause a lot of damage very quickly. Someone out of their head on drugs or alcohol could, “for a laugh,” seriously hurt an infant in a stripclub.

    I believe that it’s not right for very very young children to be around people who are taking hard drugs or abusing alcohol (meaning getting drunk, as opposed to drinking moderately e.g a glass of wine with lunch) for those reasons. People who abuse drugs and alcohol can simply be too unpredictable.

    As for the simulated sex I think that very young children, even if they are unaware of the erotic context, tend to copy behaviour they have seen grown ups do.

    So while I think strutting in heels or what have you is comparatively harmless, I think that it would not be appropriate for toddlers to mimic actual sexual behaviour such as penetrative acts, sexual positions and so on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Quite unlike the so-called woke posters who are using genuine rhetorical devices like allegory, facts, and coming to logical conclusions based on evidence to explain exactly why dancing in a leather g string in close proximity to babies isn’t actually harmful if you think about it…


    Did you ever ask yourself whether other people might want to think about that? I know I sure as hell don’t want to think about it, nor have I any intention of interrogating my own biases as to why I think it’s inappropriate for adults to be dancing in close proximity to babies who have no choice but to be subjected to that shyte because their adult caregivers are irresponsible adults who put their own needs before those of their children. In the example under discussion, I don’t think it’s woke, I don’t think it’s perverted, it’s just… dumb.


    Why is it inappropriate for an infant to see someone dancing in a thong and knee high boots when the infant is not aware of any erotic contexts, and the dancer is not more undressed than a sunbather on the beach or someone going for a run shirtless in the summer?


    It’s not that it’s just inappropriate for infants to see someone dancing in a thong and knee high boots, it’s that the adults involved ever thought children would want to see that in the first place. The organisers are quite clear about their intentions - this is for adults, mothers who are sick of ‘wheels on the bus’ on repeat. It’s not even about entertaining babies, they’re just… there! (I suppose it’s not like they have places to be 😂), but the comparisons you’re making are as equally ill-conceived as the ‘gender swap’ thought experiment.

    Cabaret shows aimed at an adult audience is an entirely different concept to the idea of exposing children to a sporting activity or a leisure activity in which the attire or lack thereof is of no value whatsoever because it neither adds nor detracts anything from the activity, whereas the costumes and overt sexualisation are an integral element of the performance with respect to Cabaret.

    That’s why with regard to the example being discussed here, fundamentally I think it’s just ripping off adults who are bored with their children and don’t want to have to endure another round of wheels on the bus. To them I’d simply say welcome to the world of raising children, where children’s needs come first before your own need to be entertained. It’s a fundamental aspect of being an adult, as opposed to indulging in reverting to a childlike state themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Did you ever ask yourself whether other people might want to think about that? I know I sure as hell don’t want to think about it

    Well, and I mean this with all due respect, then you have no place debating this topic in a discussion forum.

    Forums such as these are for the exchange of ideas and sometimes when that happens people will need to question their own biases and beliefs.

    Like I said before, there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with babies attending any kind of dance performance and all of these “it’s wrong because… it just is!!!” comments are from people who absolutely refuse to question their own hardwired beliefs.

    It’s the kind of typical prudishness you get from the “hey I’m no bigot, I think people should live and let live unless it makes me uncomfortable” crowd on here.

    That’s genuinely why I love debating on this site: it is swarming with crypto-bigots who think that they’re not full of hate because they don’t use racial or homophobic slurs but as soon as someone behaves in a manner that doesn’t conform to what they think is “normal” it’s all tantrums and fire and brimstone.

    I’m still waiting for someone to explain what’s actually wrong with someone dancing in a g string and knee high boots around infants, apart from “I don’t like it.” But I won’t hold my breath. 😎 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 472 ✭✭Paterson Jerins


    Do you ever admit you're wrong???

    Your posts are just bizarre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭Evade


    Just because they won't remember doesn't make it right. They used to perform surgery on babies without anesthesia for that same reason. It's much easier to enforce if the precedent is no children instead of only children that are too young to remember because that's a very grey area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Bloody hell mate, you’re gone off on a different tangent entirely with the crypto-bigots stuff 😂

    No, the reason I don’t interrogate it is because I don’t need the mental image of adults cavorting around infants while their adult caregivers look on as though this is great entertainment… for the adults! Because as you so clearly point out - the infants aren’t even aware of it, nor are their needs being considered. It’s entirely about adults entertaining themselves.

    I know you mean it with respect, but telling me I have no place in a discussion because I’m unwilling to entertain the idea of bored adults engaging in dumb shìt for the sole purposes of their own entertainment and I’m not prepared to entertain nonsense about why it isn’t harmful to infants is bloody convenient from your perspective. It means you can just stick to imagining anyone who doesn’t think it’s a good example to set for children is only a prude anyway. Call me a prude with bells on for all I care, because as far as I’m concerned the argument isn’t about either of us personally, it’s about the idea under discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    You’re living in a dream world if you think parents are obliged only to attend entertainment functions that are aimed at children.

    Many parents take their kids to rock concerts, the theatre, opera, and so on, most of which are not aimed at children. Parents can pursue their own interests with kids in tow, particularly when they cause no harm in children (such as the dance show we’re talking about)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    So the main reason for this to be okay is that a child doesn't know what eroticism is so they don't register it as sexual.

    So I assume you also think it would be okay for parents to have sex in front of a child or watch porn in front of them.

    They don't know its eroticism so there should be no problem with it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's very easy to just say there's so much wrong etc but such a statement should be backed up.

    I'm repeating myself because people are handwaving it away so much. A man wearing a g-string, butt cheeks exposed, very obvious bulge, and nothing else but high heels... pole-dancing... how is it unreasonable to say this is what happens in a strip club?

    Not a sex show, just a run of the mill strip club.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I've been to strip clubs and live sex shows in over a dozen countries. One thing they all had in common was very tight security. Any hint of violence, alcohol or drug abuse was dealt with very, very quickly. Saw much more of that at regular clubs and pubs. Prostitution, in some countries it's legal and attached to ateip clubs. Donkey show?!? Ewwwww. Gross.

    As for taking a baby or toddler to a strip club, no. I want to have fun at those places and looking after a toddler or baby is not fun. Same with taking them to a night club or bar or movie or sports event. No thanks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭Evade


    Who said that? The argument has been what's age appropriate for children to attend not that parents can only attend Barney or panto or whatever children's entertainment. Why can't the parents leave the child with someone else if they want to attend something inappropriate?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    It isn’t inappropriate is my point, so why would they need to leave their children with someone else?

    Incidentally I’m still waiting for a person to explain exactly why it is inappropriate without resorting to emotionally manipulative cries of “it just is okay???” Come on, who’s gonna make the case for the prosecution?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    As for the simulated sex I think that very young children, even if they are unaware of the erotic context, tend to copy behaviour they have seen grown ups do.

    Surely not if it doesn't "register with them"?





  • okay then fair enough

    so Fugue what toddlers are you aware of that understand the concept of being “sexy” or indeed possess the wherewithal to be sexually attracted to someone/something? I don’t know any.

    So what you see and what they see might be the same thing however how that information is processed in their brain is so wildly different to you surely this is easy to comprehend?

    you see “sexy” or “raunchy” or “provocative”

    they see a man, wearing weird clothes who kind of dresses like [insert person they know who might dress in that way here]. They literally are too innocent to get it.

    But that aside I think there’s worlds of difference between clothed people and naked people when it comes to exposure to kids. I would be on the side of this particular show being questionable as entertainment for kids I think the outfits are too revealing tbh. Drag shows I don’t see any issue but just this particular one is maybe not great for kids but can you seriously sit there and tell me with a straight face that it’s equally as bad or worse than bringing a small child to a strip club?

    Lets put aside the obvious women with tops or pants off dancing naked on a pole and just focus for a moment on the atmosphere of the place..

    Anyway, in the states they don’t seem to think this is a big deal. When I was over there before and I’ve heard loads of times that Hooter’s is a really popular place for the family. I suspect more likely for the dad to ogle the women but regardless kids are there very often.

    If you’re not familiar hooters is the restaurant chain where the staff dress in low cut tops and shorts and just generally in a “sexy” way. I think it’s kind of weird to bring kids there but if the women were walking around topless then I’d be inclined to call the police or social services.

    Honestly the outfits their wearing I mean most kids would see worse going to the beach.. I saw worse on beaches in Spain.. god the horror.

    Anyway TL;DR

    naked men or women in front of kids? A fcuking crime

    half naked men or women in front of kids? Personally find it a touch strange but also it’s not really that big a deal seeing as the kids haven’t a flipping clue anyway and I don’t suspect they’ll be enterally traumatised by it.





  • Also find it funny that some of the same folks here crying about this and shouting

    WONT SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

    are the same people who think Enoch burke is in the right but what about those children?

    i guess you only think of the children when it aligns with your own personal POV. Funny how that works.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You’re living in a dream world if you think parents are obliged only to attend entertainment functions that are aimed at children.


    That’s not anything like an argument I ever made? At no point have I ever suggested that parents were obligated only to attend entertainment functions that are aimed at children. The objections here are to the fact that adults are bringing children to entertainment functions which are aimed at adults. It’s why I wholeheartedly agreed with you that the children aren’t aware of what’s going on around them, my point was that the adults who are around the children are acutely aware of what’s going on, and what they’re all getting out of it. The children’s welfare is of no concern whatsoever, which is exactly the problem.


    Many parents take their kids to rock concerts, the theatre, opera, and so on, most of which are not aimed at children. Parents can pursue their own interests with kids in tow, particularly when they cause no harm in children (such as the dance show we’re talking about)


    Nobody is arguing with the idea that parents can pursue their own interests with their children in tow. In each and every one of the examples you give, the parents are aiming for their children to develop an interest in whatever it is, whether it’s rock concerts, theatre, opera, whatever. Those examples are not the same as events aimed at adults who find attending events aimed at their children to be too boring for them.

    They’re two separate ideas you’re conflating there - one is the idea of parents introducing their children to an activity they hope their children develop an interest in, or in pursuit of their children’s development, whereas the other is entirely focused on what the adults are getting out of it for themselves, and the children are merely an accessory to the whole experience. If I dare to dwell on it the rationale suggests nothing positive, and puts the idea squarely in the realm of child beauty pageants.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Have a look at the Tavistock scandal in England and you should have the answer to your question there





  • What have transgender children in England (or anywhere) got to do with my post?

    Firstly the child at the centre of Burkes tantrum is not transgender they are non binary.

    Secondly it affects all children in the school. I made sure to not single anyone out.

    In any case I am just bemused at the double standard, I suppose.

    “Children must be protected and defended at all costs (except when those children are doing something I don’t abide by)..” is what I’m getting from some comments here tbh

    anyway total aside and I’m not dragging burke in here he has a thread all about him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    You’re wasting your time if you keep trying to catch me out with a bad-faith “gotcha” question.

    How about you, or someone else, actually try to explain your position regarding your topic instead of me repeating the point I have made so well over and over. I’m all ears.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What have transgender kids got to to with the Enoch Burke case? Strange question.


    Let's be clear - Burke is an idiot and his actions in protesting his views are disgraceful. If that was your original point, then I agree.


    But - and I may have taken your post up wrong - if you think the kid in question should be referred to as "they" just because, well this has everything to do with Burke's views and Tavistock. And distinguishing between transgender/non-binary/whatever nonsense you're making up today doesn't change that.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    naked men or women in front of kids? A fcuking crime

    Depends on the context - I've been on plenty of nudist and clothing-optional beaches and saunas where it's been almost entirely naked. And you know what kids do on nudist beaches when there's lots of naked people around?

    Same thing they do on every beach - go swimming and build sandcastles.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes






  • Yeah I should have said I mean in the context of like strip clubs or the likes. Even that show with the drag queens (is that what they’re called?) if they were cutting about with their lads out it’d be a much bigger problem and clearly unacceptable.

    i was in Spain before as young lad and it was perfectly socially acceptable for women to be topless and no one seemed to care. It’s all about context I suppose really.







  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭Evade


    The explosion of the whole genderqueer/fluid extra genders thing is definitely a social contagion and maybe most of those kids shouldn't be indulged.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    I would like to know seems you are making a statement.

    Or are you making up things to try back up a point?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,810 ✭✭✭Evade


    If you're dancing in heels, thongs, and bandage gear maybe it's just best to keep all children away from that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Enoch Burke is not in the right, he is a religious nutjob driven by hate.

    But yes, it's all about the children, including those children. I will need your explicit permission to elaborate, but I'd rather not.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not "half naked" though. It's just a tiny thong, nothing more. I don't think kids should be brought to Hooters either - ew, sleazy.

    I mean you're agreeing that this situation is questionable too. It's not a strip club, no, but the sight I described is something that you absolutely would see in a strip club.

    It's the naysayers who are the ones arguing in bad faith, coming up with bullsh1t gotchas. They are only being contrarian for the sake of it - out of spite. To call people prudes when they know full well it's not prudish, and they secretly agree. It IS an attempt to gaslight. Don't be fooled by them. And their "argument" boils down to "small kids won't know" - talk about inane. In that case, why are there restrictions on any visual material that's raunchy? (I don't agree that Enoch Burke was right).

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭CGI_Livia_Soprano
    Holding tyrants to the fire


    Incidentally I’m still waiting for a person to explain exactly why it is inappropriate without resorting to emotionally manipulative cries of “it just is okay???”

    Still waiting.

    I’m beginning to think that maybe it’s because the people posting about how bad it is can’t justify it.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject


    You should aim your post at them, rather than implying a lot of us were defending Enoch Burke.





  • No, I’m making an observation and refusing to name any names. If your own personal observations differ that’s fine too.

    I don’t find any value in “making things up” to prove a point. The point proves itself or it’s one not worth making.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Leg End Reject






  • Look I won’t say I’d bring my own kids to see it but at the same time I don’t think I’m be foaming at the mouth with outrage if the Mrs did you know what I mean?

    Atmospherically speaking alone a strip club is an apples to oranges comparison. I think what some folk here are trying to convey is that they find it personally icky or uncomfortable, which I would side with, but it’s not wrong either?

    Thats my thoughts on it anyways to boil it down to a sentence or two.

    kids in strip clubs? Wrong.

    Kids at one of these shows in a community centre? Fringe at worst imo





  • You don’t need my permission to do or say anything. If you cannot make a point without being offensive then perhaps the point you’re making is faulty in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Cordell


    There is no direct causality between the fact that an argument is offensive and it's validity. Especially when the offense is taken by choice, and not intended to be part of the argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    But you didn't make an observation, you stated posters here are backing up Burke.

    You are refusing to name anyone because you can't name anyone.

    Your post was not worth making if you can't back up your statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,731 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I think we can all agree on one thing: Enoch Burke is NOT woke.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I don’t think anyone feels like engaging with you since you threw your toys out the pram and made blanket statements about transphobic bigots again. Once an argument has reached this ridiculous phase there is no point in continuing it.

    I’ll leave it there.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,289 ✭✭✭Cordell




This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement